# Where did Abaia go? *The Urth list — 76 messages, 15 voices, 18 Jul 2010* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Lee Berman *18 Jul 2010, 06:02* In my last post under Patera Inire (which has a typo- should start- "I don't agree") I mention an allegorical answer I think best for explaining how an ocean-bound creature like Abaia could be destroyed by a flood. But for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will offer a more textual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. Abaia is the name for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps a flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water. Abaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We have the similarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We have (perhaps aspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually under the waters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a fish god beneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the presence of Abaia is the Lake/Shore people's town which is named "Murene". This Latin derived, Germanic word basically means "moray eel" (which does include freshwater versions). (sorry if this idea had been posted before. If so I hadn't seen it) --- ### brunians at brunians.org *18 Jul 2010, 07:04 · in reply to Lee Berman* Sticka you arm in a crack Whena you don't get it back That's a moray. . > In my last post under Patera Inire (which has a typo- should start- "I > don't agree") > I mention an allegorical answer I think best for explaining how an > ocean-bound > creature like Abaia could be destroyed by a flood. > > But for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will offer > a more > textual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. Abaia > is the > name for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps > a flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water. > > Abaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We have > the > similarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We have > (perhaps > aspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually > under the > waters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a fish > god > beneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the presence of > Abaia is > the Lake/Shore people's town which is named "Murene". This Latin derived, > Germanic > word basically means "moray eel" (which does include freshwater versions). > > > (sorry if this idea had been posted before. If so I hadn't seen it) > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your > inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jeff Wilson *18 Jul 2010, 07:50 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On 7/18/2010 1:02 AM, Lee Berman wrote: > Abaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We have the > similarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We have (perhaps > aspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually under the > waters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a fish god > beneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the presence of Abaia is > the Lake/Shore people's town which is named "Murene". This Latin derived, Germanic > word basically means "moray eel" (which does include freshwater versions). The problem with this is that Juturna and Baldanders are both sea-dwellers by the time of Sev's return. Juturna says her kind swim between the stars and supposedly Abaia's seed came from off-world as well, so they would presumably have to cope with all kinds of salt levels, pHs, alkalai content, etc. The upheaval of Ushas' coming might result in very low fish stocks for a long time, until the dispersed populations regroup and currents and thermoclines re-establish themselves in a stable fashion. Meanwhile, the hungry undines gotta eat something.... ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > ``` --- ### John Watkins *18 Jul 2010, 11:30 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 2:02 AM, Lee Berman wrote: > > In my last post under Patera Inire (which has a typo- should start- "I > don't agree") > I mention an allegorical answer I think best for explaining how an > ocean-bound > creature like Abaia could be destroyed by a flood. I think there are a couple of textual possibilities, actually. From Eschatology and Genesis: First Demon: The continents themselves are old as raddled women, long since stripped of beauty and fertility. The New Sun comes-- Autarch: I know! First Demon: --and he will send them crashing into the sea like foundered ships. Second Demon: And from the sea lift new--glittering with gold, silver, iron, and copper. So Abaia could easy have been crushed by a foundered continent or mountain, or trapped on a new continent as it rises from the sea and then, assuming he could survive the upheaval itself, collapsed under his own weight. I think the latter is more probable, simply because we're told in the text that Abaia and his kind can't survive outside of water long (perhaps Baldanders is the reference, I can't recall) and we actually see Juturna dying in this manner. > But for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will offer > a more > textual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. Abaia > is the > name for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps > a flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water. > > Abaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We have > the > similarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We have > (perhaps > aspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually under > the > waters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a fish god > beneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the presence of Abaia > is > the Lake/Shore people's town which is named "Murene". This Latin derived, > Germanic > word basically means "moray eel" (which does include freshwater versions). > > > (sorry if this idea had been posted before. If so I hadn't seen it) > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your > inbox. > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 > _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *18 Jul 2010, 13:09 · in reply to Lee Berman* Could "Diuturna" be pronounced "Juturna"? > Lee Berman wrote: > In my last post under Patera Inire (which has a typo- should start- "I don't agree") > I mention an allegorical answer I think best for explaining how an ocean-bound > creature like Abaia could be destroyed by a flood. > > But for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will offer a more > textual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. Abaia is the > name for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps > a flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water. > > Abaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We have the > similarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We have (perhaps > aspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually under the > waters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a fish god > beneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the presence of Abaia is > the Lake/Shore people's town which is named "Murene". This Latin derived, Germanic > word basically means "moray eel" (which does include freshwater versions). > > > (sorry if this idea had been posted before. If so I hadn't seen it) > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 > _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *18 Jul 2010, 13:14 · in reply to David Stockhoff* Never mind---I suppose there is no point in that. > David Stockhoff wrote: > Could "Diuturna" be pronounced "Juturna"? > > Lee Berman wrote: >> In my last post under Patera Inire (which has a typo- should start- >> "I don't agree") I mention an allegorical answer I think best for >> explaining how an ocean-bound creature like Abaia could be destroyed >> by a flood. >> >> But for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will >> offer a more >> textual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. >> Abaia is the >> name for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps >> a flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water. >> Abaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We >> have the >> similarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We >> have (perhaps >> aspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually >> under the >> waters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a >> fish god beneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the >> presence of Abaia is the Lake/Shore people's town which is named >> "Murene". This Latin derived, Germanic >> word basically means "moray eel" (which does include freshwater >> versions). >> >> (sorry if this idea had been posted before. If so I hadn't seen >> it) >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your >> inbox. >> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 >> >> _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *18 Jul 2010, 13:31 · in reply to David Stockhoff* They are in fact alternate spellings. . > Could "Diuturna" be pronounced "Juturna"? > > Lee Berman wrote: >> In my last post under Patera Inire (which has a typo- should start- "I >> don't agree") >> I mention an allegorical answer I think best for explaining how an >> ocean-bound >> creature like Abaia could be destroyed by a flood. >> >> But for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will >> offer a more >> textual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. >> Abaia is the >> name for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps >> a flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water. >> >> Abaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We >> have the >> similarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We have >> (perhaps >> aspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually >> under the >> waters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a fish >> god >> beneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the presence of >> Abaia is >> the Lake/Shore people's town which is named "Murene". This Latin >> derived, Germanic >> word basically means "moray eel" (which does include freshwater >> versions). >> >> >> (sorry if this idea had been posted before. If so I hadn't seen it) >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your >> inbox. >> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 >> _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *18 Jul 2010, 13:31 · in reply to David Stockhoff* They are in fact alternate spellings. . > Could "Diuturna" be pronounced "Juturna"? > > Lee Berman wrote: >> In my last post under Patera Inire (which has a typo- should start- "I >> don't agree") >> I mention an allegorical answer I think best for explaining how an >> ocean-bound >> creature like Abaia could be destroyed by a flood. >> >> But for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will >> offer a more >> textual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. >> Abaia is the >> name for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps >> a flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water. >> >> Abaia's most likely freshwater home would surely be Lake Diuturna. We >> have the >> similarity of the name to Juturna, the daughter-bride of Abaia. We have >> (perhaps >> aspiring megatherian) Baldanders choosing to live near and eventually >> under the >> waters of this lake. The Lake/Island people have their belief in a fish >> god >> beneath the waters. But perhaps the best evidence for the presence of >> Abaia is >> the Lake/Shore people's town which is named "Murene". This Latin >> derived, Germanic >> word basically means "moray eel" (which does include freshwater >> versions). >> >> >> (sorry if this idea had been posted before. If so I hadn't seen it) >> _________________________________________________________________ >> Hotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your >> inbox. >> http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1 >> _______________________________________________ --- ### Adam Thornton *18 Jul 2010, 16:18 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* > On 07/18/2010 02:04 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > Sticka you arm in a crack > Whena you don't get it back > That's a moray. > us > Customs and rules Often not just for fools That's a more'. --- ### brunians at brunians.org *18 Jul 2010, 17:01 · in reply to Adam Thornton* Putta you hand on a tool When you pull on a fool That's a ouanquing. . > On 07/18/2010 02:04 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> Sticka you arm in a crack >> Whena you don't get it back >> That's a moray. >> us > Customs and rules > Often not just for fools > That's a more'. > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Lee Berman *19 Jul 2010, 04:12 · follows brunians at brunians.org* > John Watkins: So Abaia could easy have been crushed by a foundered continent > or mountain, or trapped on a new continent as it rises from the sea and then, > assuming he could survive the upheaval itself, collapsed under his own weight. > I think the latter is more probable, simply because we're told in the text that > Abaia and his kind can't survive outside of water long (perhaps Baldanders > is the reference, I can't recall) and we actually see Juturna dying in this > manner. Yes, considering the "waves of gravitation" emitted by the onrushing New Sun that could be the force which kills off the giant monsters. Or perhaps some newly risen continent has mountain sized gelatinous masses on it baking in the warm, golden radiance of Ushas. I still think the evidence of Abaia in Lake Diuturna is too compelling to completely ignore. Doesn't matter though. As a giant shape-shifting alien who reproduces asexually and sexually (daughter-brides) the guy can easily be in two or many more places at once. Tzadkiel explains his/her similar abilities to have multiple shapes, sizes and locations with: > "the cells of our bodies shift, like those of certain sea creatures on your Urth, > which can be pressed through a screen yet reunite". The screen thing is a classic description of members the Sponge phylum which reproduce both sexually and via asexual budding. But perhaps Tzadkiel is referring to some very large sea creatures on Urth also. I'm pretty sure we get another view of pinched off, shape-shifting, human-sized agents in the Short Sun relationship between Seawrack and The Mother. I'm still not sure if these answers are as important as Christian allegory though. We could argue that Juturna survives in Ushas because she is a small enough piece of Abaia to survive the gravitation or shifty enough to adjust to salt water or agile enough to avoid rising continents. But I take her survival to mean that even in a Flood-cleansed, Jesus-enlightened world such as our own Earth, we still have some minor demons which survive on to plague us. --- ### David Stockhoff *19 Jul 2010, 11:44 · in reply to Lee Berman* Presumably, we must always be tested, even in a new creation. > Lee Berman wrote: > > I'm still not sure if these answers are as important as Christian allegory though. > We could argue that Juturna survives in Ushas because she is a small enough piece > of Abaia to survive the gravitation or shifty enough to adjust to salt water or > agile enough to avoid rising continents. But I take her survival to mean that even > in a Flood-cleansed, Jesus-enlightened world such as our own Earth, we still have > some minor demons which survive on to plague us. > > --- ### brunians at brunians.org *19 Jul 2010, 11:59 · in reply to David Stockhoff* What the hell otherwise is the point? . > Presumably, we must always be tested, even in a new creation. > > Lee Berman wrote: >> I'm still not sure if these answers are as important as Christian >> allegory though. >> We could argue that Juturna survives in Ushas because she is a small >> enough piece >> of Abaia to survive the gravitation or shifty enough to adjust to salt >> water or >> agile enough to avoid rising continents. But I take her survival to mean >> that even >> in a Flood-cleansed, Jesus-enlightened world such as our own Earth, we >> still have >> some minor demons which survive on to plague us. > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jeff Wilson *19 Jul 2010, 14:00 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On 7/18/2010 11:12 PM, Lee Berman wrote: > I'm still not sure if these answers are as important as Christian allegory though. > We could argue that Juturna survives in Ushas because she is a small enough piece > of Abaia to survive the gravitation or shifty enough to adjust to salt water or > agile enough to avoid rising continents. But I take her survival to mean that even > in a Flood-cleansed, Jesus-enlightened world such as our own Earth, we still have > some minor demons which survive on to plague us. Or perhaps she survived through her gift of superhuman powers, similar to her brother, Severian? ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > ``` --- ### James Wynn *19 Jul 2010, 19:02 · in reply to Lee Berman* > But for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will offer a more > textual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. Abaia is the > name for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps > a flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water. > Without followers, why would the Megatherians stay? Typhon surely would not have remained when the entire human population was reduced to....what a few dozen? I'm not sure why it would be the case, but one inference from Typhon's conversation with Severian is that he was unable to leave Urth at the end. ""It was a period of great confusion as well. My astronomers had told me that this sun's activity would decay slowly. Far too slowly, in fact, for the change to be noticeable in a human lifetime. They were wrong. The heat of the world declined by nearly two parts in a thousand over a few years, then stabilized. Crops failed, and there were famines and riots. *I should have left then*." Is there any evidence that the Megatherians could at last leave after the New Sun came? u+16b9 --- ### Jeff Wilson *19 Jul 2010, 21:48 · in reply to James Wynn* > On 7/19/2010 2:02 PM, James Wynn wrote: >> But for those who don't see Judeo-Christianity in this story, I will >> offer a more >> textual explanation. Perhaps Abaia doesn't really live in the ocean. >> Abaia is the >> name for a magical *freshwater* eel in Melanesian mythology. So perhaps >> a flood could kill off Abaia simply via contact with salt water. > Without followers, why would the Megatherians stay? Typhon surely would > not have remained when the entire human population was reduced > to....what a few dozen? I'm not sure why it would be the case, but one > inference from Typhon's conversation with Severian is that he was unable > to leave Urth at the end. > > ""It was a period of great confusion as well. My astronomers had told me > that > this sun's activity would decay slowly. Far too slowly, in fact, for the > change > to be noticeable in a human lifetime. They were wrong. The heat of the > world > declined by nearly two parts in a thousand over a few years, then > stabilized. > Crops failed, and there were famines and riots. *I should have left then*." Typhon goes on to explain that his trusted ship commanders fled, leaving him without means of egress. He apparently did not believe in the personal escape craft, or perhaps was too proud to leave with a force too small to ensure him a return to power at his destination. > Is there any evidence that the Megatherians could at last leave after > the New Sun came? The undines claim to swim between the stars, presumably they could bear some part of their masters with them, the parts small enough and manlike enough to be able to have "lives" recorded...perhaps it's them that are the Hierogrammates counterparts, or even literally their parts, exiled from the larger bodies like the little Tzadkerbell at the Brook Madregot. Anyway, if they arrived as beans, presumably star-swimming undines could carry them away as beans, they might use their mighty powers of mind to command fliers to descend and take their spawn to nearby planets where further ships await... ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > ``` --- ### Jeff Wilson *27 Jul 2010, 14:00 · in reply to David Stockhoff* > On 7/18/2010 8:09 AM, David Stockhoff wrote: > Could "Diuturna" be pronounced "Juturna"? It's more than likely Abaia's would see to it that his seed survived in Juturna, if such a thing were possible, and there are some really off-putting reproductive strategies among the Abyssal fishes that might suit even if conventional conjugation were not suitable. But let's look at Juturna's name. She's a bit of a Jotun, true, and Juturna was a Roman goddess of fountains who saved her brother Turnus, at least for a bit. Now, who else may travel the Corridors of Time and is associated with fountain? And why would an otherwise loyal concubine of Abaia with no prospects of returning to the land seek to help some land-lubbing foundling? ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > ``` --- ### Lee Berman *27 Jul 2010, 17:34 · follows Jeff Wilson* Jeff Wilson- > It's more than likely Abaia's would see to it that his seed survived in > Juturna, if such a thing were possible. > But let's look at Juturna's name. She's a bit of a Jotun, true, and > Juturna was a Roman goddess of fountains who saved her brother Turnus, > at least for a bit. > Now, who else may travel the Corridors of Time and is associated with > fountain? And why would an otherwise loyal concubine of Abaia with no > prospects of returning to the land seek to help some land-lubbing foundling? Well, many major power players including Father Inire, The Old Autarch and The Cumaean (via Hildegren) explicitly state that their strategy involves playing both sides so as to benefit no matter who wins. Why not Abaia? The fountain connection is nice but for me the strongest evidence for a family connection between Severian and Juturna is the ridiculous, apparently unfulfillable, sexual ardor they share for each other. Sounds like the incestuous Severian family curse in action. Seems even stronger than what Severian and (his cousin?) Agia feel, so maybe "sister" is a good assessment. This family curse is shared by all the family pantheons of pagan gods. Who did they have (initially) to mate with but each other? Adam and Eve's kids faced a similar problem (as perhaps did Adam and Eve- clones via rib?). In my interpretation, the lust between Severian and Juturna is gone at their meeting on Ushas because the family curse of incest has been broken by the coming of the New Sun as the pagan curse on Earth was broken by the Flood and the rise of Judeo-Christianity with its immaculate conception and virgin birth. But yes, surely Juturna carries some potential for demon-spawn within herself. Still, when you say "missing" sister I have to think of Severian's absent twin, Severa. I have a difficult time tracing a Juturna lifestory which allows for that identity switch. Actually, among all the candidates for Severa, I find only one has the potential for Severa as a real name- Jolenta, which could be only her stage name. We expect Severa to have been a witch (exiled?) and we don't know what Jolenta was doing before her months as a waitress. Wolfe hides her hair color when Severian first meets her then seems to reveal it with the "newly hatched chick" thing. Borski thinks the "gold" hair is a sign for Severian family-hood. There is a lot of dialog to the contrary but I must wonder whether Jolenta was the real purpose for Severian's meeting with the witches in the Stone Town ...trying to save the life of one of their own, via Severian's power. Perhaps similar to Severian's "accidental" resurrection of Dorcas from the Lake of Birds. --- ### John Watkins *27 Jul 2010, 18:10 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 1:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote: > > > We expect Severa to have been a witch (exiled?) and we don't know what > Jolenta > was doing before her months as a waitress. Wolfe hides her hair color when > Severian first meets her then seems to reveal it with the "newly hatched > chick" > thing. Borski thinks the "gold" hair is a sign for Severian family-hood. See, this is just the sort of thing that gets my goat. Severian is dark-haired. So is Catherine. Agia and Agilus are brown-haired. Dorcas is a blonde. So now hair of any color other than red is evidence of relationship to Severian! > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy is not the too busy. Combine all your e-mail accounts with > Hotmail. > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?tile=multiaccount&ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_4 > _______________________________________________ --- ### Adam Thornton *27 Jul 2010, 18:41 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On 07/27/2010 12:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote: > We expect Severa to have been a witch (exiled?) and we don't know what Jolenta > was doing before her months as a waitress. Wolfe hides her hair color when > Severian first meets her then seems to reveal it with the "newly hatched chick" > thing. Borski thinks the "gold" hair is a sign for Severian family-hood. > Objection! Why should the carpet match the drapes? Adam --- ### Adam Thornton *27 Jul 2010, 18:42 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On 07/27/2010 12:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote: > We expect Severa to have been a witch (exiled?) and we don't know what Jolenta > was doing before her months as a waitress. Wolfe hides her hair color when > Severian first meets her then seems to reveal it with the "newly hatched chick" > thing. Borski thinks the "gold" hair is a sign for Severian family-hood. > OBJECTION TWO: given what "destriers" are, for all we know, New Sun "chicks" are scaly reptilian horrors, or fourteen-legged Space Mollusks, or.... --- ### Jerry Friedman *27 Jul 2010, 19:13 · in reply to Adam Thornton* > From: Adam Thornton > > On 07/27/2010 12:34 PM, Lee Berman wrote: >> We expect Severa to have been a witch (exiled?) and we don't know what >> Jolenta >> was doing before her months as a waitress. Wolfe hides her hair color when >> Severian first meets her then seems to reveal it with the "newly hatched >> chick" >> thing. Borski thinks the "gold" hair is a sign for Severian family-hood. > > Objection! Why should the carpet match the drapes? The Cumaean refers to Jolenta as "big red gold" in contrast to Dorcas, "little pale-hair" (CotC, Ch. XXX). It hadn't occurred to me till now that her mention of two colors, with no hyphen, might refer to the cuffs not matching the collars. Newly hatched chicks may be various colors. http://www.google.com/images?um=1&hl=en&biw=1024&bih=571&tbs=isch%3A1&sa=1&q=newly+hatched+chicks I now return you to your contemplation of these matters. Jerry Friedman --- ### Lee Berman *27 Jul 2010, 19:13 · follows Jerry Friedman* > JW- > See, this is just the sort of thing that gets my goat. > Severian is dark-haired. So is Catherine. Agia and Agilus are > brown-haired. Dorcas is a blonde. > So now hair of any color other than red is evidence of relationship to > Severian! Oh, that is so unfair! heh. Actually red hair would be in the mix also, (remembering that Fechin is Father Inire). Sorry about the goat, btw. My theory holds together pretty well for me but I understand it will be worthless for many others. Hair color must surely match and justify the geneology and I think it works like this: Blonde Dorcas and her red haired husband have blonde Ouen as a son. Ouen and dark haired Catherine have twins, dark haired Severian and blonde Severa (Jolenta). Dark haired Cyriaca and her red haired "uncle" have twins, Agia and Agilus. They have not just brown but reddish brown, "chestnut" hair. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chestnut_hair . --- ### John Watkins *27 Jul 2010, 19:24 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 3:13 PM, Lee Berman wrote: > > > Hair color must surely match and justify the geneology and I think it > works like this: > > Blonde Dorcas and her red haired husband have blonde Ouen as a son. Ouen > and dark haired Catherine have twins, dark haired Severian and blonde > Severa (Jolenta). > > Dark haired Cyriaca and her red haired "uncle" have twins, Agia and > Agilus. They have not just brown but reddish brown, "chestnut" hair. That works just fine. I dunno about Cyriaca being the mother of Agia and Agilus but I have no strong feelings about it either way. My issue is that in reverse, hair of any color can fit into the Severian family tree. And so we see Borski saying that Baldanders' overgrown child (and possible catamite), who has gold hair, is Severian's biological child. Because he has gold hair! And gold represents the sun! But if he had dark hair, he'd look like Severian, and so also could be argued to be Severian's kid. And if he had pale blonde hair, he'd look like Dorcas. And with "chestnut" hair, he might be related to Agia and Agilus--maybe even be their incest-spawn--and therefore Severian. Red hair would be proof of an Inire connection, as you note. At some point, every detail becomes a prop for one wild theory or another, and the loop closes. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chestnut_hair > > > . > > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. > > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 > _______________________________________________ --- ### Lee Berman *27 Jul 2010, 19:52 · follows John Watkins* > John Watkins- At some point, every detail becomes a prop for one wild theory or another- Well, I certainly agree that Borski takes one theme, like haircolor or onomastics and runs with it and stretches it beyond all credulity. The blonde catamite is a perfect example. I forget his explanation...Baldanders stole Dorcas DNA during their travels and used that to grow it, or something like that. Kinda silly. I would not be comfortable entertaining such speculation unless two or three themes converge to the same conclusion. If Severian felt sexually attracted to the catamite and/or the catamite was decorated with some sort of cloisonne and/or if the catamite were a twin or named Ouen, etc... only then could I consider the possibility it was related to Severian. Gold hair by itself just isn't enough. --- ### Jeff Wilson *27 Jul 2010, 20:21 · in reply to Lee Berman* > Jeff Wilson- > It's more than likely Abaia's would see to it that his seed survived in > Juturna, if such a thing were possible. >> But let's look at Juturna's name. She's a bit of a Jotun, true, and >> Juturna was a Roman goddess of fountains who saved her brother Turnus, >> at least for a bit. >> Now, who else may travel the Corridors of Time and is associated with >> fountain? And why would an otherwise loyal concubine of Abaia with no >> prospects of returning to the land seek to help some land-lubbing >> foundling? > Well, many major power players including Father Inire, The Old Autarch and > The Cumaean (via Hildegren) explicitly state that their strategy involves > playing both sides so as to benefit no matter who wins. Why not Abaia? Maybe. A family connection would be a good motivation to become a double agent, and equally good for convincing the other side that you have become a sincere double agent when you are not. > The fountain connection is nice but for me the strongest evidence for a > family connection between Severian and Juturna is the ridiculous, > apparently unfulfillable, sexual ardor they share for each other. Sounds > like the incestuous Severian family curse in action. Seems even stronger > than what Severian and (his cousin?) Agia feel, so maybe "sister" is a > good assessment. Is it possible that Severian's warped upbringing has left him unable to easily distinguish between different kinds of attraction? > Still, when you say "missing" sister I have to think of Severian's absent > twin, > Severa. I have a difficult time tracing a Juturna lifestory which allows > for > that identity switch. Actually, among all the candidates for Severa, I > find > only one has the potential for Severa as a real name- Jolenta, which could > be > only her stage name. Isn't is customary for children stolen by fairies or selkies or the Erlkoenig to be given a new name as well? Severa the apprentice witch could have been snatched any time she went swimming in Gyoll or had been left unattended for a few moments near the water. And Juturna/Severa could have any color hair under the alage. --- ### James Wynn *27 Jul 2010, 20:25 · in reply to Jerry Friedman* > The Cumaean refers to Jolenta as "big red gold" in contrast to Dorcas, "little > pale-hair" (CotC, Ch. XXX). It hadn't occurred to me till now that her mention > of two colors, with no hyphen, might refer to the cuffs not matching the > collars. > Silk also has a red-gold beard. "At his washstand upstairs, he stropped the big, bone-handled razor that had waited hi his mother's bureau until he was old enough to shave, lathered his face, and scraped away his reddish-blond beard." Nightside IX If Silk is a clone of Typhon, then Typhon's "blonde" hair was actually "strawberry-blonde". I *do* think hair color is a family signature, although I don't know exactly how it all fits together. But I still believe that red hair and reddish blonde hair is intended to connect someone to the family of Typhon. u+16b9 --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *27 Jul 2010, 20:32 · in reply to James Wynn* > On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 1:25 PM, James Wynn wrote: > But I still believe that red hair and reddish blonde hair is intended to > connect someone to the family of Typhon. That's probably true in Long/Short. However, I very much doubt that Typhon was accorded this much thought when planning and writing tBotNS. Long/Short are an afterthought (as is Urth), and Typhon in NS is little more than a chance encounter (albeit one with important symbolic value). ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Jeff Wilson *27 Jul 2010, 20:49 · in reply to James Wynn* > I *do* think hair color is a family signature, although I don't know > exactly how it all fits together. Generally darker hair dominates over lighter, though hair can appear as lighter colors at longer lengths and with increasing exposure to the elements. Red hair counts as a form of blonde in this way. In general, color also dominates darker over lighter. Skin's a mix. --- ### Jeff Wilson *27 Jul 2010, 20:58 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* >> I *do* think hair color is a family signature, although I don't know >> exactly how it all fits together. > Generally darker hair dominates over lighter, though hair can appear as > lighter colors at longer lengths and with increasing exposure to the > elements. Red hair counts as a form of blonde in this way. In general, > color also dominates darker over lighter. Skin's a mix. That's "eye color" in the middle. Continents' influence aide, Mendelian genetics has blue eyed parents breeding true, and blonde haired parents as well. Dark haired parents can have kids of light or dark hair, but if two lighter haired people have a dark haired kid, there's probably a dark haired man getting away with something. None of this is cut and dried, but fun to speculate. For those who cut Biology class: http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mendelian_inheritance --- ### James Wynn *27 Jul 2010, 22:47 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* >> But I still believe that red hair and reddish blonde hair is intended to >> connect someone to the family of Typhon. >> > That's probably true in Long/Short. > > However, I very much doubt that Typhon was accorded this much thought > when planning and writing tBotNS. Long/Short are an afterthought (as > is Urth), and Typhon in NS is little more than a chance encounter > (albeit one with important symbolic value). > > Well, Wolfe apparently included an entire backstory to Typhon, to his parents, and to a couple of his children in the story of Frog and Fish. So I think he must have given it more thought than that. u+16b9 --- ### Lee Berman *28 Jul 2010, 11:38 · follows James Wynn* > Jeff Wilson- Isn't is customary for children stolen by fairies or selkies or the > Erlkoenig to be given a new name as well? Severa the apprentice witch > could have been snatched any time she went swimming in Gyoll or had been > left unattended for a few moments near the water. > And Juturna/Severa could have any color hair under the alage. My assumption was that, like Idas, all the undines have white/albino hair. The green algae color wouldn't work so well atop a brunette. I put a lot of stock in the undines' claim to be daughter-brides of Abaia. The Tzadkiel/sponge sexual/asexual reproduction model works for me. I'm not sure if that can fit in with this scenario of Severian's twin being dragged underwater as a child to be transformed into an undine. Some sort of Corn Maiden? But if that's what happened I can certainly see her name being changed to match the lake. --- ### Jeff Wilson *28 Jul 2010, 18:55 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On 7/28/2010 6:38 AM, Lee Berman wrote: >> Jeff Wilson- Isn't is customary for children stolen by fairies or selkies or the >> Erlkoenig to be given a new name as well? Severa the apprentice witch >> could have been snatched any time she went swimming in Gyoll or had been >> left unattended for a few moments near the water. >> And Juturna/Severa could have any color hair under the alage. > My assumption was that, like Idas, all the undines have white/albino hair. The green > algae color wouldn't work so well atop a brunette. The BOTNS seems to disagree with you; there is a green megatherium at the Well of Orchids, and we have green sloths today who get their color from algae growing on/in their pelts which are otherwise various colors: http://deoxy.org/gaia/3tsloth.htm RL people have also been known to get algae growing on their neglected dreadlocks. > I put a lot of stock in the undines' claim to be daughter-brides of Abaia. The > Tzadkiel/sponge sexual/asexual reproduction model works for me. I think incest with Abaia the undine man is more likely. > I'm not sure if that can fit in with this scenario of Severian's twin being dragged > underwater as a child to be transformed into an undine. Some sort of Corn Maiden? > But if that's what happened I can certainly see her name being changed to match the > lake. Not necessarily transformed into an undine, but perhaps surviving as long as she has because of undine ancestry. There could be a rather Dickensian chain of "chance" relations from a Abaia-bride seducing a Nessusite man, giving birth to the child who grew up to marry Dorcas and begat Ouen, who begat twins on Katherine that grew to become Severian and Juturna. Undines claim to be able to entertain air-breathers the way the mermaids represent to Latro. Their association with algae like the Green Man suggests a connection, and that plus the weird alien science may provide some kind of life-support mush that they can supply. If this mush somehow saturates the fetus in vivo, then it explains the Green Man coming from some time in Ushas' future where the repentant undines have re-united with the air-breathers. Having built-in oxygen and nutirent support would be really handy for people who travel among the stars or between eras of catastrophic change. The universe's like a box of chocolates, after all. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > ``` --- ### Ryan Dunn *28 Jul 2010, 19:36 · in reply to Lee Berman* is it definitely a catamite? or is that theoretical as well? ...ryan > On Jul 27, 2010, at 3:52 PM, Lee Berman wrote: >> John Watkins- At some point, every detail becomes a prop for one wild theory or another- > Well, I certainly agree that Borski takes one theme, like haircolor or onomastics and > runs with it and stretches it beyond all credulity. The blonde catamite is a perfect > example. I forget his explanation...Baldanders stole Dorcas DNA during their travels and > used that to grow it, or something like that. Kinda silly. > > I would not be comfortable entertaining such speculation unless two or three themes > converge to the same conclusion. If Severian felt sexually attracted to the catamite > and/or the catamite was decorated with some sort of cloisonne and/or if the catamite > were a twin or named Ouen, etc... only then could I consider the possibility it was > related to Severian. Gold hair by itself just isn't enough. > _________________________________________________________________ > Hotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2 > _______________________________________________ --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *28 Jul 2010, 20:28 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* > On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote: > is it definitely a catamite? or is that theoretical as well? That's Severian's interpretation of what he sees. He could, I suppose, be wrong... ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### David Stockhoff *29 Jul 2010, 00:45 · in reply to Lee Berman* How do you account for the facial appearance of Agia/Agilus? I believe Severian's description pegs them as Southerners, perhaps as related to autochthons (i.e., Indians or what we would call Hispanics): long eyes, flat cheeks, chestnut hair. Something like that. > Lee Berman wrote: > >> JW- >> See, this is just the sort of thing that gets my goat. >> Severian is dark-haired. So is Catherine. Agia and Agilus are >> brown-haired. Dorcas is a blonde. >> So now hair of any color other than red is evidence of relationship to >> Severian! >> > > Oh, that is so unfair! heh. Actually red hair would be in the mix > also, (remembering that Fechin is Father Inire). > > Sorry about the goat, btw. My theory holds together pretty well for me > but I understand it will be worthless for many others. > > Hair color must surely match and justify the geneology and I think it > works like this: > > Blonde Dorcas and her red haired husband have blonde Ouen as a son. Ouen > and dark haired Catherine have twins, dark haired Severian and blonde > Severa (Jolenta). > > Dark haired Cyriaca and her red haired "uncle" have twins, Agia and > Agilus. They have not just brown but reddish brown, "chestnut" hair. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chestnut_hair > > > . > > _________________________________________________________________ > The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox. > http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3 > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jerry Friedman *29 Jul 2010, 03:44 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote: >> is it definitely a catamite? or is that theoretical as well? > That's Severian's interpretation of what he sees. He could, I suppose, > be wrong... People keep saying this, but Severian tells us twice that he doubts the boy is a catamite. At least so far. Jerry Friedman --- ### Lee Berman *29 Jul 2010, 03:55 · follows Jerry Friedman* > David Stockton- How do you account for the facial appearance of Agia/Agilus? I believe > Severian's description pegs them as Southerners, perhaps as related to > autochthons (i.e., Indians or what we would call Hispanics): long eyes, > flat cheeks, chestnut hair. Something like that. A good question. First, I'd say Southerners are mostly, like Hallvard, tall, pale skinned and blonde, from the cold parts of The Commonwealth. To the north of Nessus are the Indian-looking autochthon people. Quite a few around the area of Thrax, where Agia and Agilus might have roots, if their mother is Cyriaca. Agia is described as having a short nose, elongated brown eyes and wide cheekbones. Agilus is described as having flat cheeks. In Thrax, when Cyriaca is describing Severian's masked face she mentions high cheekbones and flat cheeks. It seems like there could be a family resemblance though not a strong one. When Severian first meets Agia she is wearing a pavonine brocade gown. I have recently learned "pavonine" means peacock-like. I would not be quick to associate this with the fallen peacock angel, Prometheus-cognate demon Azazel except that Agia has a few things which associate her with demonic stuff...she mentions lamia jewelry, scratches a jurupari design, carries the warlock sword and uses a claw weapon similar to the Jungle Sorcerers. I think Agia's other two weapons might link her to Thrax and Cyriaca. She has the crooked dagger at Casdoe's house. And she mentions a "misericorde" from her shop which is a slim blade used to perform battlefield mercy killings on mortally wounded warriors. This would be a likely item to be found in a shop run by a former Pelerine. For those interested- The Jurupari (or Yuripari) was a monkey-like demon of the Tupi Indians a southern, Atlantic coast tribe of S. America. He is known as the enforcer of a forbidden fruit taboo and swallowed some child transgressors whole, to be vomited up later. Jurupari shares its name with a cichlid family member, also called Demon Fish. This family is known for hatching and brooding and protecting their babies in their mouths, to be spit out later when safety returns. I find associations with Inire, Abaia and The Mother on Blue to be possible. --- ### Gerry Quinn *29 Jul 2010, 08:11 · in reply to Jerry Friedman* > From: "Jerry Friedman" > From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes >> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Dunn >> wrote: >>> is it definitely a catamite? or is that theoretical as well? >> That's Severian's interpretation of what he sees. He could, I suppose, >> be wrong... > People keep saying this, but Severian tells us twice that he doubts the > boy is a > catamite. At least so far. So who/what is he? The only other possibility I can think of is that he is Baldander's son. I have tended to assume that Baldanders started out as a normal man until he started modifying himself, but we also know that the modifications have extreme effects such as mental instability evinced as moodiness and violent rages. So the fact that the child appears to be retarded doesn't necessarily mean anything. Perhaps Baldanders has started the modifications earlier on his son/replacement, or perhaps Baldanders started like this too. On the other hand, Talos seems to go wandering the world after Baldanders takes up an aquatic lifestyle - if the child is Baldanders' one might expect him to stay and look after it. But it may well be that the local villagers burned the castle down and disposed of everything there. (Not for the first time.) - Gerry Quinn --- ### Jack Smith *29 Jul 2010, 09:18 · in reply to Gerry Quinn* Severian uses the word "catamite" and so something must suggest a sexual element to him. But I like the idea that the child is Baldander's son (or his Number Five). > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 4:11 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote: > From: "Jerry Friedman" >> From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes >> >> On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Dunn >> wrote: >>>> is it definitely a catamite? or is that theoretical as well? >>> That's Severian's interpretation of what he sees. He could, I suppose, >>> be wrong... >> People keep saying this, but Severian tells us twice that he doubts the >> boy is a >> catamite. At least so far. > So who/what is he? The only other possibility I can think of is that he is > Baldander's son. I have tended to assume that Baldanders started out as a > normal man until he started modifying himself, but we also know that the > modifications have extreme effects such as mental instability evinced as > moodiness and violent rages. So the fact that the child appears to be > retarded doesn't necessarily mean anything. Perhaps Baldanders has started > the modifications earlier on his son/replacement, or perhaps Baldanders > started like this too. > > On the other hand, Talos seems to go wandering the world after Baldanders > takes up an aquatic lifestyle - if the child is Baldanders' one might expect > him to stay and look after it. But it may well be that the local villagers > burned the castle down and disposed of everything there. (Not for the first > time.) > > - Gerry Quinn > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Lee Berman *29 Jul 2010, 13:01 · follows Jack Smith* > Jack Smith- Severian uses the word "catamite" and so something must suggest a sexual > element to him. But I like the idea that the child is Baldander's son (or > his Number Five). No reason he can't be both (though Baldanders is dark haired). The thing is the word "catamite" is used. Severian is not a real person who might have meaningless random musings. This is a fictionally created person whose every word has been crafted with a purpose. As Jack suggests, we are compelled, purposefully, by the author, to think of pedophilia because that word is used. Now if that big baby (it is a very large baby I think, not a retarded older child) had been found with a bottle and rattle in a giant crib, then perhaps we could doubt that Baldanders had sexual intentions. But this baby is adorned with fancy accoutrements and is chained to Baldanders' bed, which itself is decked out like a sybaritic 70's love nest. Severian may have doubts about the baby's catamite status, but we cannot. Other parts of the story suggest Severian is in a constant state of denial when it comes to pedophilia. We may live in a Michael Jackson world where pedophilia jokes can be part of a comedian's monologue or a recurring character on Family Guy, but Gene Wolfe didn't. The Pelerines mention toleration of it, but it is a very sore subject for Severian, for some reason. Pedophilia nicely conjoins with the ambience Wolfe builds regarding Baldanders' castle. The place is full of monstrosties, carved up human bodies experimented on and used for spare parts. The guy we had been led to believe was a dull, hulking servant has his evil masterhood graphically revealed (both Severian and we had trouble earlier believing that Baldanders was master of Dr.Talos, though the both assert it). For me the catamite simply reinforces Baldanders' monstrous persona. His real child is Dr. Talos. - I find the introduction of a rather fantastic, or unpleasantly outrageous concept then clouding it with doubt to be a recurring trope in Gene Wolfe's work. I think the best example is the suggestion that VRT has Dr. Marsch being killed and replaced by an abo. Perhaps an abo who forgets his own true identity. There are many seeds of doubt which are planted in the story to allow denial that this is what happened. Enough to spark lively debate in past years on this forum. But then it was discovered that Gene Wolfe, in a rare departure from reticence, openly acknowledges that the replacement of Dr. Marsch happened, in one of his interviews. > From this, I deduce that Occam's Razor often does not work in trying to understand Wolfe's > work. Surely sometimes a flying building turns out to be simply a tent cathedral playing hot > airballoon. But also often, a more fantastic interpretation is the best, auctorially intended > one.At the least we are meant to consider fantastic explanations on an equal par with mundane > ones. --- ### Adam Thornton *29 Jul 2010, 13:04 · in reply to Gerry Quinn* > On 07/29/2010 03:11 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote: > l So the fact that the child appears to be retarded doesn't > necessarily mean anything. Perhaps Baldanders has started the > modifications earlier on his son/replacement, or perhaps Baldanders > started like this too. Doesn't Severian think Baldanders is simple for a while? Also: does "fuel" count as "catamite"? My reading of the child is that he's not there for Baldanders' *sexual* satisfaction, but because Baldanders extends his youth by chowing down on his young self-clones' (if that's what they are) pineal glands, or slowly drinking their blood, or something. Maybe "battery" or "spare parts" is more accurate than "fuel." Adam --- ### António Pedro Marques *29 Jul 2010, 14:30 · in reply to Lee Berman* Lee Berman wrote (29-07-2010 14:01): > From this, I deduce that Occam's Razor often does not work in trying to > understand Wolfe's work. It's not exclusive to Wolfe's work. In fact, it only works in very specific circumstances. Which may be often met, but are very specific nonetheless. --- ### James Wynn *29 Jul 2010, 14:51 · in reply to António Pedro Marques* >> From this, I deduce that Occam's Razor often does not work in trying to >> understand Wolfe's work. > It's not exclusive to Wolfe's work. In fact, it only works in very > specific > circumstances. Which may be often met, but are very specific nonetheless. So true. There are few things more annoying (although many as annoying) than a debater who invokes Occam's Razor and then sits back and twiddles his fingers-- "Problem solved". Occam's Razor says that entities may not be multiplied beyond necessity. "Beyond Necessity" is a term that must be qualified, especially in a Lupine story. u+16b9 --- ### David Stockhoff *29 Jul 2010, 15:13 · in reply to Lee Berman* "wide cheekbones, and the elongated brown eyes that often accompany them" is a strong clue. This is an ethnic flag of some kind, not a family one. I'm not sure where I got "southern" from---I didn't mean THAT far south---but perhaps you're right, and the north is where that heritage persists. I agree that Agia seems a sorceress. > Lee Berman wrote: > >> David Stockton- How do you account for the facial appearance of Agia/Agilus? I believe >> Severian's description pegs them as Southerners, perhaps as related to >> autochthons (i.e., Indians or what we would call Hispanics): long eyes, >> flat cheeks, chestnut hair. Something like that. >> > > A good question. First, I'd say Southerners are mostly, like Hallvard, tall, pale skinned > and blonde, from the cold parts of The Commonwealth. To the north of Nessus are the > Indian-looking autochthon people. Quite a few around the area of Thrax, where Agia and > Agilus might have roots, if their mother is Cyriaca. > > Agia is described as having a short nose, elongated brown eyes and wide cheekbones. Agilus > is described as having flat cheeks. In Thrax, when Cyriaca is describing Severian's masked > face she mentions high cheekbones and flat cheeks. It seems like there could be a family > resemblance though not a strong one. > > When Severian first meets Agia she is wearing a pavonine brocade gown. I have recently > learned "pavonine" means peacock-like. I would not be quick to associate this with > the fallen peacock angel, Prometheus-cognate demon Azazel except that Agia has a few > things which associate her with demonic stuff...she mentions lamia jewelry, scratches a > jurupari design, carries the warlock sword and uses a claw weapon similar to the Jungle > Sorcerers. > > I think Agia's other two weapons might link her to Thrax and Cyriaca. She has the crooked > dagger at Casdoe's house. And she mentions a "misericorde" from her shop which is a slim > blade used to perform battlefield mercy killings on mortally wounded warriors. This would > be a likely item to be found in a shop run by a former Pelerine. > > > For those interested- The Jurupari (or Yuripari) was a monkey-like demon of the Tupi Indians > a southern, Atlantic coast tribe of S. America. He is known as the enforcer of a forbidden > fruit taboo and swallowed some child transgressors whole, to be vomited up later. Jurupari > shares its name with a cichlid family member, also called Demon Fish. This family is known for > hatching and brooding and protecting their babies in their mouths, to be spit out later when > safety returns. I find associations with Inire, Abaia and The Mother on Blue to be possible. > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jerry Friedman *29 Jul 2010, 15:16 · in reply to Lee Berman* >> From: Lee Berman >> Jack Smith- Severian uses the word "catamite" and so something must suggest a >> sexual >> element to him. But I like the idea that the child is Baldander's son (or >> his Number Five). > No reason he can't be both (though Baldanders is dark haired). The thing is the > word > "catamite" is used. Severian is not a real person who might have meaningless > random > > musings. This is a fictionally created person whose every word has been crafted > with > a purpose. As Jack suggests, we are compelled, purposefully, by the author, to > think of > pedophilia because that word is used. I agree so far. > Now if that big baby (it is a very large baby I think, not a retarded older > child) had > > been found with a bottle and rattle in a giant crib, then perhaps we could doubt > that > > Baldanders had sexual intentions. But this baby is adorned with fancy > accoutrements and > is chained to Baldanders' bed, which itself is decked out like a sybaritic 70's > love nest. Still agreeing. > Severian may have doubts about the baby's catamite status, but we cannot. Of course we can. What Severian says is, "The catamite beneath (if catamite he was)..." and "Large though he [the boy] was, I have never been able to believe that Baldanders practiced pederasty as that term is usually understood, though it may well be that he had hoped to do so when the boy grew larger still." So there we have it. Severian thinks the boy isn't a catamite yet but may well be intended for that purpose. The reason for his doubt may be that the boy is still too small (or too immature?). I cannot imagine why we should feel more sure that any part of this is right or wrong than Severian does. > Other parts of the story suggest Severian is in a constant state of denial when > it comes > > to pedophilia. Not constant. He does discuss it in reference to the young blood donor as well as here. > We may live in a Michael Jackson world where pedophilia jokes can be part > of a comedian's monologue or a recurring character on Family Guy, but Gene > Wolfe didn't. I agree again. > The Pelerines mention toleration of it, Possibly. Ava says, "'...some befriend children left homeless by the struggle.'" "Remembering Casdoe's son, I said, 'I can see why you object to that.'" "'We do not object--most certainly not to that, and not to things vastly less natural.'" She may mean that they don't object when people take care of homeless children to sexually exploit them, or she may be referring to other "unnatural" practices but not that. I doubt very much she means the Pelerines tolerate pedophilia when the children have other possibilities. (To the extent that objecting to anything would do them any good. Whatever the religion of Severian's time is like, we hear little or nothing of its moral doctrines or the idea that anyone might follow them.) > but it is a very sore subject for Severian, for some reason. A lot of people don't bring it up often. However, as I said before, I agree with you that it's striking that Severian doesn't mention it in reference to the apprentices' lives in the Matachin Tower. (As many here have probably found out, the name Matachin can suggest homosexuality, though not pedophilia. .) ... > I find the introduction of a rather fantastic, or unpleasantly outrageous > concept then > > clouding it with doubt to be a recurring trope in Gene Wolfe's work. I think > the best > example is the suggestion that VRT has Dr. Marsch being killed and replaced by > an abo. > > Perhaps an abo who forgets his own true identity. There are many seeds of doubt > which are > planted in the story to allow denial that this is what happened. Enough to > spark lively > > debate in past years on this forum. But then it was discovered that Gene Wolfe, > in a rare > departure from reticence, openly acknowledges that the replacement of Dr. > Marsch happened, > in one of his interviews. > > From this, I deduce that Occam's Razor often does not work in trying to > understand Wolfe's > work. Surely sometimes a flying building turns out to be simply a tent > cathedral playing hot > > airballoon. But also often, a more fantastic interpretation is the best, > auctorially intended > > one.At the least we are meant to consider fantastic explanations on an equal > par with mundane > > ones. I was wrong about "V. R. T." (though maybe not on this forum), but I think I was preferring the more elaborate explanation and Occam's Razor would have led me to the solution Wolfe gave. No doubt you're right in general that we should consider fantastic explanations, but I don't see how it applies to the boy in Baldanders's castle. Jerry Friedman --- ### Jack Smith *29 Jul 2010, 15:57 · in reply to Jerry Friedman* Thanks for the link to the Mattachine Society--has some good info even if homosexuality is not the issue. > On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 11:16 AM, Jerry Friedman > wrote: > From: Lee Berman >>> Jack Smith- Severian uses the word "catamite" and so something must >>> suggest a >>> sexual >>> element to him. But I like the idea that the child is Baldander's son >>> (or >>> his Number Five). >> No reason he can't be both (though Baldanders is dark haired). The thing >> is the >> word >> "catamite" is used. Severian is not a real person who might have >> meaningless >> random >> >> musings. This is a fictionally created person whose every word has been >> crafted >> with >> a purpose. As Jack suggests, we are compelled, purposefully, by the >> author, to >> think of >> pedophilia because that word is used. > I agree so far. >> Now if that big baby (it is a very large baby I think, not a retarded >> older >> child) had >> >> been found with a bottle and rattle in a giant crib, then perhaps we could >> doubt >> that >> >> Baldanders had sexual intentions. But this baby is adorned with fancy >> accoutrements and >> is chained to Baldanders' bed, which itself is decked out like a sybaritic >> 70's >> love nest. > Still agreeing. >> Severian may have doubts about the baby's catamite status, but we cannot. > Of course we can. > > What Severian says is, "The catamite beneath (if catamite he was)..." and > "Large > though he [the boy] was, I have never been able to believe that Baldanders > practiced pederasty as that term is usually understood, though it may well > be > that he had hoped to do so when the boy grew larger still." > > So there we have it. Severian thinks the boy isn't a catamite yet but may > well > be intended for that purpose. The reason for his doubt may be that the boy > is > still too small (or too immature?). > > I cannot imagine why we should feel more sure that any part of this is > right or > wrong than Severian does. >> Other parts of the story suggest Severian is in a constant state of >> denial when >> it comes >> >> to pedophilia. > Not constant. He does discuss it in reference to the young blood donor as > well > as here. >> We may live in a Michael Jackson world where pedophilia jokes can be part >> of a comedian's monologue or a recurring character on Family Guy, but >> Gene >> Wolfe didn't. > I agree again. >> The Pelerines mention toleration of it, > Possibly. Ava says, "'...some befriend children left homeless by the > struggle.'" > > "Remembering Casdoe's son, I said, 'I can see why you object to that.'" > > "'We do not object--most certainly not to that, and not to things vastly > less > natural.'" > > She may mean that they don't object when people take care of homeless > children > to sexually exploit them, or she may be referring to other "unnatural" > practices > but not that. I doubt very much she means the Pelerines tolerate > pedophilia > when the children have other possibilities. (To the extent that objecting > to > anything would do them any good. Whatever the religion of Severian's time > is > like, we hear little or nothing of its moral doctrines or the idea that > anyone > might follow them.) >> but it is a very sore subject for Severian, for some reason. > A lot of people don't bring it up often. However, as I said before, I > agree > with you that it's striking that Severian doesn't mention it in reference > to the > apprentices' lives in the Matachin Tower. (As many here have probably > found > out, the name Matachin can suggest homosexuality, though not pedophilia. > .) > ... >> I find the introduction of a rather fantastic, or unpleasantly outrageous >> concept then >> >> clouding it with doubt to be a recurring trope in Gene Wolfe's work. I >> think >> the best >> example is the suggestion that VRT has Dr. Marsch being killed and >> replaced by >> an abo. >> >> Perhaps an abo who forgets his own true identity. There are many seeds of >> doubt >> which are >> planted in the story to allow denial that this is what happened. Enough >> to >> spark lively >> >> debate in past years on this forum. But then it was discovered that Gene >> Wolfe, >> in a rare >> departure from reticence, openly acknowledges that the replacement of Dr. >> Marsch happened, >> in one of his interviews. >> >> From this, I deduce that Occam's Razor often does not work in trying to >> understand Wolfe's >> work. Surely sometimes a flying building turns out to be simply a tent >> cathedral playing hot >> >> airballoon. But also often, a more fantastic interpretation is the best, >> auctorially intended >> >> one.At the least we are meant to consider fantastic explanations on an >> equal >> par with mundane >> >> ones. > I was wrong about "V. R. T." (though maybe not on this forum), but I think > I was > preferring the more elaborate explanation and Occam's Razor would have led > me to > the solution Wolfe gave. > > No doubt you're right in general that we should consider fantastic > explanations, > but I don't see how it applies to the boy in Baldanders's castle. > > Jerry Friedman > > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Lee Berman *29 Jul 2010, 17:46 · follows Jack Smith* > Jerry Friedman- No doubt you're right in general that we should consider > fantastic explanations, but I don't see how it applies to the boy in Baldanders's > castle. Well, I suppose the catamite status of the baby would fall under my other category, "unpleasantly outrageous" better than "fantastic" explanations. I was addressing what I thought were some other posters who were willing to give Baldanders the benefit of the doubt with regard to this issue. I don't think he was intended to receive such benefit from Wolfe. Perhaps from Severian though. I don't see the importance in wondering whether the chained, decorated baby in his bed is currently being used as a sexual object or whether that is planned for the future. But Severian does. Why? Perhaps it is his way of saying, "well if you have such thoughts and plans, but haven't gotten to act on them yet, then it isn't so bad". Perhaps this ties to his odd comment regarding Little Severian. Perhaps I have been too obtuse. The point of my thoughts on this thread is that I detect evidence that Severian has had homosexual and pedophillic thoughts and experiences in his life. Though we are his confidants, he doesn't quite want to admit these but manages to betray himself anyway, to those attuned to the signals. His discussion of these activities when engaged in by others suggests mild disapproval and denial of interest mixed with contradictions that essentially "out" him. It seems like an almost embarassing, painfully intimate confession if there can be such a thing of a fictional character. It leaves me wondering if I should even be discussing such things in a public forum. Perhaps that was the intention of the author. --- ### Jeff Wilson *29 Jul 2010, 19:23 · in reply to Jerry Friedman* >> On 7/29/2010 10:16 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote: >> We may live in a Michael Jackson world where pedophilia jokes can be part >> of a comedian's monologue or a recurring character on Family Guy, but Gene >> Wolfe didn't. > She may mean that they don't object when people take care of homeless children > to sexually exploit them, or she may be referring to other "unnatural" practices > but not that. I doubt very much she means the Pelerines tolerate pedophilia > when the children have other possibilities. (To the extent that objecting to > anything would do them any good. Whatever the religion of Severian's time is > like, we hear little or nothing of its moral doctrines or the idea that anyone > might follow them.) Gene Wolfe did live in a world where "chicken hawks" were occasionally treated sympathetically in the media, particularly when their exploitees turned out to be gay runaways, who easily could have had worse prospects in the drug- and mob-infested big cities they were drawn to. >> but it is a very sore subject for Severian, for some reason. > A lot of people don't bring it up often. However, as I said before, I agree > with you that it's striking that Severian doesn't mention it in reference to the > apprentices' lives in the Matachin Tower. (As many here have probably found > out, the name Matachin can suggest homosexuality, though not pedophilia. > .) Years ago I giggled about that sailing over GW's head, but it's starting to look like he meant it to suggest some homosex background. I can see Severian not mentioning the sodomy because it's just the way things were where he was raised, and it explains the emphasis he puts on his hetero achievements, but where does he get his otherwise everyday "common" knowledge, like that people might disapprove of pederastry, or that there's a special potion that lets you relive the life of a dead person? Lots of people come to the torturers, but outside of Thecla, the circumstances don't seem to favor cultural inculation. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > ``` --- ### brunians at brunians.org *01 Aug 2010, 06:17 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote: >> is it definitely a catamite? or is that theoretical as well? > That's Severian's interpretation of what he sees. He could, I suppose, > be wrong... There are alternate and plausible explanations? . --- ### brunians at brunians.org *01 Aug 2010, 06:28 · in reply to Jerry Friedman* > From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > On Wed, Jul 28, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Dunn > wrote: >>> is it definitely a catamite? or is that theoretical as well? >> That's Severian's interpretation of what he sees. He could, I suppose, >> be wrong... > People keep saying this, but Severian tells us twice that he doubts the > boy is a catamite. At least so far. He is trying to deny it because he likes Baldanders and would prefer not to think of him as doing something as nasty as fucking a little boy. . --- ### brunians at brunians.org *01 Aug 2010, 06:37 · in reply to Lee Berman* >> Jack Smith- Severian uses the word "catamite" and so something must >> suggest a sexual element to him. But I like the idea that the child >> is Baldander's son (or his Number Five). > No reason he can't be both (though Baldanders is dark haired). The thing > is the word "catamite" is used. Severian is not a real person Do you believe this? > who might > have meaningless random musings. Why not? > This is a fictionally created person whose every word has been > crafted with a purpose. The only difference between Severian and you and I is that he has a different Author. . --- ### Lee Berman *01 Aug 2010, 12:58 · follows brunians at brunians.org* > brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is that he has a > different Author I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an intelligence too vast, penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be comprehended by us. How true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian? > Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. > He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is referring to his own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The part where he describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to appear simple, someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of those sort of places. --- ### brunians at brunians.org *01 Aug 2010, 13:00 · in reply to Lee Berman* Why are you presuming? You don't know? Is not the Author of the author the Author? . >> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is that he >> has a >> different Author > I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an intelligence > too vast, > penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be comprehended by > us. > > How true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian? >> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. > I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is referring > to his > own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The part > where he > describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to appear > simple, > someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of those > sort of > places. > _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *01 Aug 2010, 17:57 · in reply to Lee Berman* I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane observations. > Lee Berman wrote: > >> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is that he has a >> different Author >> > > I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an intelligence too vast, > penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be comprehended by us. > > How true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian? > > > > >> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >> > > I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is referring to his > own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The part where he > describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to appear simple, > someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of those sort of > places. > _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *01 Aug 2010, 18:09 · in reply to David Stockhoff* Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian. Why? . > I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he > often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane > observations. > > Lee Berman wrote: >>> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is that he >>> has a >>> different Author >> I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an intelligence >> too vast, >> penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be comprehended >> by us. >> >> How true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian? >>> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >>> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >> I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is >> referring to his >> own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The part >> where he >> describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to appear >> simple, >> someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of those >> sort of >> places. >> _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *01 Aug 2010, 18:13 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* I did no such thing. > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian. > > Why? > > . > > >> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he >> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >> observations. >> >> Lee Berman wrote: >> >>>> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is that he >>>> has a >>>> different Author >>>> >>>> >>> I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an intelligence >>> too vast, >>> penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be comprehended >>> by us. >>> >>> How true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian? >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >>>> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >>>> >>>> >>> I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is >>> referring to his >>> own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The part >>> where he >>> describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to appear >>> simple, >>> someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of those >>> sort of >>> places. >>> _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *01 Aug 2010, 18:19 · in reply to David Stockhoff* What is a scruple, Stockhoff? . >> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he >> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >> observations. > I did no such thing. > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian. >> >> Why? >> >> . >>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he >>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>> observations. >>> >>> Lee Berman wrote: >>>>> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is that >>>>> he >>>>> has a >>>>> different Author >>>> I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an >>>> intelligence >>>> too vast, >>>> penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be comprehended >>>> by us. >>>> >>>> How true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian? >>>>> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >>>>> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >>>> I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is >>>> referring to his >>>> own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The >>>> part >>>> where he >>>> describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to >>>> appear >>>> simple, >>>> someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of >>>> those >>>> sort of >>>> places. >>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *01 Aug 2010, 18:38 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple to do one or the other. Why do you scruple to read people's posts? > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > What is a scruple, Stockhoff? > > . > > >>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he >>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>> observations. >>> >> I did no such thing. >> >> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> >>> Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian. >>> >>> Why? >>> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he >>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>> observations. >>>> >>>> Lee Berman wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>>> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is that >>>>>> he >>>>>> has a >>>>>> different Author >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an >>>>> intelligence >>>>> too vast, >>>>> penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be comprehended >>>>> by us. >>>>> >>>>> How true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >>>>>> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>> I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is >>>>> referring to his >>>>> own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The >>>>> part >>>>> where he >>>>> describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to >>>>> appear >>>>> simple, >>>>> someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of >>>>> those >>>>> sort of >>>>> places. >>>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *01 Aug 2010, 20:41 · in reply to David Stockhoff* Because I enjoy fucking with weasels. What's your forfeit to be? . > I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple to > do one or the other. > > Why do you scruple to read people's posts? > > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> What is a scruple, Stockhoff? >> >> . >>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he >>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>> observations. >>> I did no such thing. >>> >>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>> Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian. >>>> >>>> Why? >>>> >>>> . >>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he >>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>>> observations. >>>>> >>>>> Lee Berman wrote: >>>>>>> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is >>>>>>> that >>>>>>> he >>>>>>> has a >>>>>>> different Author >>>>>> I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an >>>>>> intelligence >>>>>> too vast, >>>>>> penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be >>>>>> comprehended >>>>>> by us. >>>>>> >>>>>> How true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian? >>>>>>> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >>>>>>> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >>>>>> I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is >>>>>> referring to his >>>>>> own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The >>>>>> part >>>>>> where he >>>>>> describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to >>>>>> appear >>>>>> simple, >>>>>> someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of >>>>>> those >>>>>> sort of >>>>>> places. >>>>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *01 Aug 2010, 21:54 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them. > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > Because I enjoy fucking with weasels. > > What's your forfeit to be? > > . > > >> I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple to >> do one or the other. >> >> Why do you scruple to read people's posts? >> >> >> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> >>> What is a scruple, Stockhoff? >>> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he >>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>>> observations. >>>>> >>>>> >>>> I did no such thing. >>>> >>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian. >>>>> >>>>> Why? >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he >>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>>>> observations. >>>>>> >>>>>> Lee Berman wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>>> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>> different Author >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an >>>>>>> intelligence >>>>>>> too vast, >>>>>>> penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be >>>>>>> comprehended >>>>>>> by us. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> How true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >>>>>>>> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is >>>>>>> referring to his >>>>>>> own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The >>>>>>> part >>>>>>> where he >>>>>>> describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to >>>>>>> appear >>>>>>> simple, >>>>>>> someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of >>>>>>> those >>>>>>> sort of >>>>>>> places. >>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>> Urth Mailing List --- ### brunians at brunians.org *01 Aug 2010, 22:03 · in reply to David Stockhoff* You don't know what a scruple is. Else you would have answered my more or less civil question. What character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and why? . > I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them. > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> Because I enjoy fucking with weasels. >> >> What's your forfeit to be? >> >> . >>> I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple to >>> do one or the other. >>> >>> Why do you scruple to read people's posts? >>> >>> >>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>> What is a scruple, Stockhoff? >>>> >>>> . >>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he >>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>>>> observations. >>>>> I did no such thing. >>>>> >>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>> Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why? >>>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says >>>>>>> he >>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Lee Berman wrote: >>>>>>>>> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is >>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>>> different Author >>>>>>>> I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an >>>>>>>> intelligence >>>>>>>> too vast, >>>>>>>> penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be >>>>>>>> comprehended >>>>>>>> by us. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> How true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian? >>>>>>>>> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >>>>>>>>> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >>>>>>>> I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is >>>>>>>> referring to his >>>>>>>> own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The >>>>>>>> part >>>>>>>> where he >>>>>>>> describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to >>>>>>>> appear >>>>>>>> simple, >>>>>>>> someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of >>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>> sort of >>>>>>>> places. >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *01 Aug 2010, 22:07 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* I don't answer a silly question just because it's asked in a manner that is relatively civil, compared to most of that person's questions. Call it a scruple. > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > You don't know what a scruple is. > > Else you would have answered my more or less civil question. > > What character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and why? > > . > > > >> I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them. >> >> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> >>> Because I enjoy fucking with weasels. >>> >>> What's your forfeit to be? >>> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>>> I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple to >>>> do one or the other. >>>> >>>> Why do you scruple to read people's posts? >>>> >>>> >>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> What is a scruple, Stockhoff? >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says he >>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>> I did no such thing. >>>>>> >>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says >>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Lee Berman wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is >>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>>>> different Author >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an >>>>>>>>> intelligence >>>>>>>>> too vast, >>>>>>>>> penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be >>>>>>>>> comprehended >>>>>>>>> by us. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> How true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >>>>>>>>>> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is >>>>>>>>> referring to his >>>>>>>>> own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. The >>>>>>>>> part >>>>>>>>> where he >>>>>>>>> describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying to >>>>>>>>> appear >>>>>>>>> simple, >>>>>>>>> someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one of >>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>> sort of >>>>>>>>> places. >>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>> Urth Mailing List >>>>>>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net >>>>>>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. >>>>>>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 100731-1, 07/31/2010 >>>>>>>>> Tested on: 8/1/2010 8:59:14 AM >>>>>>>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software. >>>>>>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *01 Aug 2010, 22:10 · in reply to David Stockhoff* Ah! You do in fact know what a scruple is. I thought that you had gone stupid on me. Why do you scruple to call the narrator Severian in that passage? . > I don't answer a silly question just because it's asked in a manner that > is relatively civil, compared to most of that person's questions. > > Call it a scruple. > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> You don't know what a scruple is. >> >> Else you would have answered my more or less civil question. >> >> What character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and why? >> >> . >>> I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them. >>> >>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>> Because I enjoy fucking with weasels. >>>> >>>> What's your forfeit to be? >>>> >>>> . >>>>> I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple >>>>> to >>>>> do one or the other. >>>>> >>>>> Why do you scruple to read people's posts? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>> What is a scruple, Stockhoff? >>>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says >>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>> I did no such thing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>>>> Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says >>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Lee Berman wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>>>>> different Author >>>>>>>>>> I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an >>>>>>>>>> intelligence >>>>>>>>>> too vast, >>>>>>>>>> penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be >>>>>>>>>> comprehended >>>>>>>>>> by us. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> How true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian? >>>>>>>>>>> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >>>>>>>>>>> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >>>>>>>>>> I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is >>>>>>>>>> referring to his >>>>>>>>>> own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. >>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>> part >>>>>>>>>> where he >>>>>>>>>> describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> appear >>>>>>>>>> simple, >>>>>>>>>> someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> sort of >>>>>>>>>> places. >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *01 Aug 2010, 22:11 · in reply to David Stockhoff* And if you prefer to continue digging, there is a reason why you want to go six feet down. . > I don't answer a silly question just because it's asked in a manner that > is relatively civil, compared to most of that person's questions. > > Call it a scruple. > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> You don't know what a scruple is. >> >> Else you would have answered my more or less civil question. >> >> What character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and why? >> >> . >>> I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them. >>> >>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>> Because I enjoy fucking with weasels. >>>> >>>> What's your forfeit to be? >>>> >>>> . >>>>> I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple >>>>> to >>>>> do one or the other. >>>>> >>>>> Why do you scruple to read people's posts? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>> What is a scruple, Stockhoff? >>>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says >>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>> I did no such thing. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>>>> Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says >>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Lee Berman wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is >>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>>>>> different Author >>>>>>>>>> I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an >>>>>>>>>> intelligence >>>>>>>>>> too vast, >>>>>>>>>> penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be >>>>>>>>>> comprehended >>>>>>>>>> by us. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> How true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian? >>>>>>>>>>> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >>>>>>>>>>> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >>>>>>>>>> I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is >>>>>>>>>> referring to his >>>>>>>>>> own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. >>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>> part >>>>>>>>>> where he >>>>>>>>>> describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying >>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>> appear >>>>>>>>>> simple, >>>>>>>>>> someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one >>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>> sort of >>>>>>>>>> places. >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *01 Aug 2010, 23:12 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* Which passage? > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > Ah! You do in fact know what a scruple is. > > I thought that you had gone stupid on me. > > Why do you scruple to call the narrator Severian in that passage? > > . > > > >> I don't answer a silly question just because it's asked in a manner that >> is relatively civil, compared to most of that person's questions. >> >> Call it a scruple. >> >> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> >>> You don't know what a scruple is. >>> >>> Else you would have answered my more or less civil question. >>> >>> What character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and why? >>> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them. >>>> >>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> Because I enjoy fucking with weasels. >>>>> >>>>> What's your forfeit to be? >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple >>>>>> to >>>>>> do one or the other. >>>>>> >>>>>> Why do you scruple to read people's posts? >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> What is a scruple, Stockhoff? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says >>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I did no such thing. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Why? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator says >>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these mundane >>>>>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Lee Berman wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I is >>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>>>>>> different Author >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an >>>>>>>>>>> intelligence >>>>>>>>>>> too vast, >>>>>>>>>>> penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be >>>>>>>>>>> comprehended >>>>>>>>>>> by us. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> How true is that of the intelligence of the author of Severian? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >>>>>>>>>>>> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he is >>>>>>>>>>> referring to his >>>>>>>>>>> own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. >>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>> part >>>>>>>>>>> where he >>>>>>>>>>> describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying >>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>> appear >>>>>>>>>>> simple, >>>>>>>>>>> someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be one >>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>> sort of >>>>>>>>>>> places. >>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>> Urth Mailing List >>>>>>>>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net >>>>>>>>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. >>>>>>>>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 100731-1, 07/31/2010 >>>>>>>>>>> Tested on: 8/1/2010 8:59:14 AM >>>>>>>>>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software. >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *01 Aug 2010, 23:49 · in reply to David Stockhoff* Stockhoff, take stock. Be a fucking weasel, see what happens. It probably won't come from me. . > Which passage? > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> Ah! You do in fact know what a scruple is. >> >> I thought that you had gone stupid on me. >> >> Why do you scruple to call the narrator Severian in that passage? >> >> . >>> I don't answer a silly question just because it's asked in a manner >>> that >>> is relatively civil, compared to most of that person's questions. >>> >>> Call it a scruple. >>> >>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>> You don't know what a scruple is. >>>> >>>> Else you would have answered my more or less civil question. >>>> >>>> What character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and >>>> why? >>>> >>>> . >>>>> I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them. >>>>> >>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>> Because I enjoy fucking with weasels. >>>>>> >>>>>> What's your forfeit to be? >>>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>>>> I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple >>>>>>> to >>>>>>> do one or the other. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Why do you scruple to read people's posts? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>>>> What is a scruple, Stockhoff? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator >>>>>>>>>> says >>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these >>>>>>>>>> mundane >>>>>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>>>> I did no such thing. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>>>>>> Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> Why? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator >>>>>>>>>>> says >>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these >>>>>>>>>>> mundane >>>>>>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Lee Berman wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I >>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>>>>>>> different Author >>>>>>>>>>>> I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an >>>>>>>>>>>> intelligence >>>>>>>>>>>> too vast, >>>>>>>>>>>> penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be >>>>>>>>>>>> comprehended >>>>>>>>>>>> by us. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> How true is that of the intelligence of the author of >>>>>>>>>>>> Severian? >>>>>>>>>>>>> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >>>>>>>>>>>>> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >>>>>>>>>>>> I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he >>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>> referring to his >>>>>>>>>>>> own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. >>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>> part >>>>>>>>>>>> where he >>>>>>>>>>>> describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying >>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>> appear >>>>>>>>>>>> simple, >>>>>>>>>>>> someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be >>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>> sort of >>>>>>>>>>>> places. >>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### David Stockhoff *01 Aug 2010, 23:57 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* You're utterly lost, Josh. > brunians at brunians.org wrote: > Stockhoff, take stock. > > Be a fucking weasel, see what happens. > > It probably won't come from me. > > . > > > >> Which passage? >> >> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> >>> Ah! You do in fact know what a scruple is. >>> >>> I thought that you had gone stupid on me. >>> >>> Why do you scruple to call the narrator Severian in that passage? >>> >>> . >>> >>> >>> >>> >>>> I don't answer a silly question just because it's asked in a manner >>>> that >>>> is relatively civil, compared to most of that person's questions. >>>> >>>> Call it a scruple. >>>> >>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>> >>>> >>>>> You don't know what a scruple is. >>>>> >>>>> Else you would have answered my more or less civil question. >>>>> >>>>> What character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and >>>>> why? >>>>> >>>>> . >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> >>>>>> I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them. >>>>>> >>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>>> Because I enjoy fucking with weasels. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> What's your forfeit to be? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> . >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>>> I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple >>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>> do one or the other. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why do you scruple to read people's posts? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> What is a scruple, Stockhoff? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator >>>>>>>>>>> says >>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these >>>>>>>>>>> mundane >>>>>>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I did no such thing. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Why? >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator >>>>>>>>>>>> says >>>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these >>>>>>>>>>>> mundane >>>>>>>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Lee Berman wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> different Author >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an >>>>>>>>>>>>> intelligence >>>>>>>>>>>>> too vast, >>>>>>>>>>>>> penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be >>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehended >>>>>>>>>>>>> by us. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> How true is that of the intelligence of the author of >>>>>>>>>>>>> Severian? >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he >>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>> referring to his >>>>>>>>>>>>> own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. >>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>> part >>>>>>>>>>>>> where he >>>>>>>>>>>>> describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying >>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>> appear >>>>>>>>>>>>> simple, >>>>>>>>>>>>> someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be >>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>> sort of >>>>>>>>>>>>> places. >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>> Urth Mailing List --- ### aaron *02 Aug 2010, 02:00 · in reply to David Stockhoff* I think this is what email is for. > On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 7:57 PM, David Stockhoff wrote: > You're utterly lost, Josh. > > brunians at brunians.org wrote: >> Stockhoff, take stock. >> >> Be a fucking weasel, see what happens. >> >> It probably won't come from me. >> >> . >>> Which passage? >>> >>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>> Ah! You do in fact know what a scruple is. >>>> >>>> I thought that you had gone stupid on me. >>>> >>>> Why do you scruple to call the narrator Severian in that passage? >>>> >>>> . >>>>> I don't answer a silly question just because it's asked in a manner >>>>> that >>>>> is relatively civil, compared to most of that person's questions. >>>>> >>>>> Call it a scruple. >>>>> >>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>> You don't know what a scruple is. >>>>>> >>>>>> Else you would have answered my more or less civil question. >>>>>> >>>>>> What character in the Book of the New Sun do you identify with and >>>>>> why? >>>>>> >>>>>> . >>>>>>> I could lend you some scruples, but you'd waste them. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>>>> Because I enjoy fucking with weasels. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> What's your forfeit to be? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> I didn't mention Severian at all or even TBotNS, so I can't scruple >>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>> do one or the other. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Why do you scruple to read people's posts? >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>>>>>> What is a scruple, Stockhoff? >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator >>>>>>>>>>> says >>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these >>>>>>>>>>> mundane >>>>>>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>>>>>> I did no such thing. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> brunians at brunians.org wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> Still, you scruple to call the narrator Severian. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Why? >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>>>>>> I recall another passage in another work, where the narrator >>>>>>>>>>>>> says >>>>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>>>> often thinks he doesn't drink enough water. I enjoy these >>>>>>>>>>>>> mundane >>>>>>>>>>>>> observations. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Lee Berman wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> brunians- The only difference between Severian and you and I >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>>>>>>>> he >>>>>>>>>>>>>> has a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> different Author >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I presume the Author of you and I is to be considered of an >>>>>>>>>>>>>> intelligence >>>>>>>>>>>>>> too vast, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> penetrating, universal, inhuman and mysterious to ever be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> comprehended >>>>>>>>>>>>>> by us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> How true is that of the intelligence of the author of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Severian? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gurloes is a tragic and interesting figure. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He is father to Severian in a way that Palaemon is not. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I agree. There are places in Wolfe's work where I am sure he >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is >>>>>>>>>>>>>> referring to his >>>>>>>>>>>>>> own wife and children in addition to his fictional characters. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>>>>>>>> part >>>>>>>>>>>>>> where he >>>>>>>>>>>>>> describes Master Gurloes as being tragic, a complex man trying >>>>>>>>>>>>>> to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> appear >>>>>>>>>>>>>> simple, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> someone who eats too much and not often enough, seems to be >>>>>>>>>>>>>> one >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> those >>>>>>>>>>>>>> sort of >>>>>>>>>>>>>> places. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Urth Mailing List >>>>>>>>>>>>>> To post, write urth at urth.net >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Virus Database (VPS): 100731-1, 07/31/2010 >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tested on: 8/1/2010 8:59:14 AM >>>>>>>>>>>>>> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> http://www.avast.com >>>>>>>>>>>>> _______________________________________________ --- ### James Wynn *02 Aug 2010, 02:06 · in reply to aaron* The best way to respond to random hostility on a listserv is OFFLINE. The poster will very quickly lose interest in the conversation and, ultimately, you feel more satisfied. u+16b9 > On 8/1/2010 9:00 PM, aaron wrote: > I think this is what email is for. --- ### brunians at brunians.org *02 Aug 2010, 02:14 · in reply to James Wynn* The best time to do this is before the hostile poster has asked you questions that you do not wish to answer. I will never lose interest in fucking with weasels. Wynn - measurably the least stupid of the JW's as well as far the least weaselicious - is not actually correct. However, I only respond to what people say, normally, unless I think of something particularly witty. Admittedly this does happen with some frequency. . > The best way to respond to random hostility on a listserv is OFFLINE. > The poster will very quickly lose interest in the conversation and, > ultimately, you feel more satisfied. > > u+16b9 > > On 8/1/2010 9:00 PM, aaron wrote: >> I think this is what email is for. > _______________________________________________ --- ### brunians at brunians.org *02 Aug 2010, 09:05 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* Did someone actually say, in a critical tone of voice, with their bare face hanging out, as a sort of complaint, that I am deliberately enigmatic? I still cannot wrap my head around this. . --- ### brunians at brunians.org *03 Aug 2010, 03:55 · in reply to brunians at brunians.org* Ignatius [of Loyola] ... began seeing a series of visions in full daylight while in hospital. These repetitive visions appeared as "a form in the air near him and this form gave him much consolation because it was exceedingly beautiful ... it somehow seemed to have the shape of a serpent and had many things that shone like eyes, but were not eyes. He received much delight and consolation from gazing upon this object ... but when the object vanished he became disconsolate." . --- ### Lee Berman *03 Aug 2010, 11:31 · follows brunians at brunians.org* > brunians- ....began seeing a series of visions in full daylight > while in hospital. These repetitive visions appeared as "a form in the air > near him and this form gave him much consolation because it was > exceedingly beautiful ... it somehow seemed to have the shape of a serpent > and had many things that shone like eyes I think that is interesting. Some other parallels between Serverian and St. Ignatius.. - he was in the hospital due to a leg injury incurred serving as a soldier -he had a spiritual journey filled with strife and trouble. - he called up an earthquake and also a storm at sea - he healed the sick including a woman's withered arm. Ignatius could have been a partial inspiration for Wolfe. --- ### brunians at brunians.org *03 Aug 2010, 11:34 · in reply to Lee Berman* Could be! . >> brunians- ....began seeing a series of visions in full daylight >> while in hospital. These repetitive visions appeared as "a form in the >> air >> near him and this form gave him much consolation because it was >> exceedingly beautiful ... it somehow seemed to have the shape of a >> serpent >> and had many things that shone like eyes > I think that is interesting. Some other parallels between Serverian and > St. Ignatius.. > > - he was in the hospital due to a leg injury incurred serving > as a soldier > > -he had a spiritual journey filled with strife and trouble. > > - he called up an earthquake and also a storm at sea > > - he healed the sick including a woman's withered arm. > > Ignatius could have been a partial inspiration for Wolfe. > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jane Delawney *06 Aug 2010, 00:55 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On 03/08/10 12:31, Lee Berman wrote: > I think that is interesting. Some other parallels between Serverian and > St. Ignatius.. > > - he was in the hospital due to a leg injury incurred serving > as a soldier > > -he had a spiritual journey filled with strife and trouble. > > - he called up an earthquake and also a storm at sea > > - he healed the sick including a woman's withered arm. > > Ignatius could have been a partial inspiration for Wolfe. So could his Order - 'black' (OK fuligin) clothing, prohibition of marriage, primacy of absolute obedience ('Torturers Obey') and their method of selecting recruits: other than boy babies born within their Tower, the Seekers of Truth and Penitence will take and educate male children who come to them (presumably with their condemned parent/s) who are able to stand beneath a certain metal bar which projects at about 3 ft. ('the height of a man's groin' - or similar, I don't have the book in front of me right now) from a bulkhead. 'Give me a child before he is seven years old and he is mine for life'. jd > > _______________________________________________ ---