{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5667", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5667, "subject": "Ymar The Almost Just", "messages": 27, "voices": 13, "first": "2010-07-19T13:04:26+00:00", "last": "2010-08-06T15:35:01+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4C444D5A.3030909@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T13:04:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar The Almost Just", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I put that in the subject because it's one of the things that made me laugh \nwhen I first read the books.\n\nWasn't Ymar a torturer? Has anyone analyzed the significance of both the \nfirst and the last Autarchs (and two we know did take the test) being torturers?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C44501A.9090104@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T13:16:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar The Almost Just", "in_reply_to": "<4C444D5A.3030909@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/19/2010 08:04 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nI put that in the subject because it's one of the things that made me \nlaugh when I first read the books.\n\nWasn't Ymar a torturer? Has anyone analyzed the significance of both \nthe first and the last Autarchs (and two we know did take the test) \nbeing torturers?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They know their actions (if successful) will bring death to millions, \nbut unlike most other citizens of the Commonwealth, they are keenly \naware that there are things much, much worse than death?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T13:23:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar The Almost Just", "in_reply_to": "<4C44501A.9090104@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I put that in the subject because it's one of the things that made me laugh \nwhen I first read the books.\nWasn't Ymar a torturer? Has anyone analyzed the significance of both the \nfirst and the last Autarchs (and two we know did take the test) being torturers?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat is a funny name. Like something from Monty Python, I think.\n \nAnd yes, the comparison of Severian to Ymar has been made\nin the past. Some even think perhaps Ymar was the first version of Severian which\nwas mentioned.\n \nIn an interview Gene Wolfe says something like, \"considering his scourging\nof the money changers in the Temple, even Jesus knew what it was to be a\ntorturer\". \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C44A2CD.7020205@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T19:09:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar The Almost Just", "in_reply_to": "<4C444D5A.3030909@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/19/2010 8:04 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nWasn't Ymar a torturer? Has anyone analyzed the significance of both \nthe first and the last Autarchs (and two we know did take the test) \nbeing torturers? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do we know anything about the other Autarchs? Perhaps they were all \nreared at the Order of the Seekers of Truth and Penitence.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T19:14:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar The Almost Just", "in_reply_to": "<4C44A2CD.7020205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 19, 2010 at 3:09 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\nDo we know anything about the other Autarchs? Perhaps they were all reared\nat the Order of the Seekers of Truth and Penitence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we can be certain they weren't, unless they were rearer by the Order\noutside the Citadel. Rudesind's report of the general euphoria about\nSeverian's elevation to Autarch\nwithin and around the Citadel suggests that his immediate predecessors had\nbeen unknown to the Citadel-dwellers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "u+16b9\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C44C51C.7010302@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-19T21:35:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Ymar The Almost Just", "in_reply_to": "<4C44A2CD.7020205@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/19/2010 2:09 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 7/19/2010 8:04 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wasn't Ymar a torturer? Has anyone analyzed the significance of both\nthe first and the last Autarchs (and two we know did take the test)\nbeing torturers?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do we know anything about the other Autarchs? Perhaps they were all\nreared at the Order of the Seekers of Truth and Penitence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Old Autarch was apprentice honey steward, and spent his childhood in \na town near or perhaps above the House Absolute. Immediately previous \nautarchs probably weren't torturers, \"Severian the Torturer\", as Sev \nreports his enemies called him, wouldn't have any bite.\n\nThere were also apparently one or more pre-Typhon rulers of some status \ncalled \"autarch\", since the resurrected Typhon accepts the title from \nthe ignorant Severian when they \"first\" meet in Citadel. Or perhaps \nTyphon takes it as the local form of \"autocrat\"." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C50BFDC.6070306@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-07-28T23:40:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Torturers? (was: Re: Ymar The Almost Just)", "in_reply_to": "<4C444D5A.3030909@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 19/07/10 14:04, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nI put that in the subject because it's one of the things that made me \nlaugh when I first read the books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's kind of like the medieval Bulgarian (I think?) monarch who was \nknown as 'Theophylact the Unbearable'! May have gotten the country \nwrong there; for those who want to check, Theophylact is referenced in \nStephen Runciman's 'The Medieval Manichee'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wasn't Ymar a torturer? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Uh no, he wasn't. At least, not in the way Severian is a torturer. Ymar \nwas an apprentice in the very earliest days of the guild, when it is \nremembered that the Towers are actually spacecraft, though also accepted \nthat they are craft that due to circumstances will never be able to \nventure into space and have already been re-purposed to some extent \n(what will later be Severian's Matachin Tower is known as 'the hulk', \nfor instance). The function that Ymar and his seniors seem to fulfill \nhere is not that of torturer, but of gaoler. I think it is more \nappropriate to speak of Ymar as an apprentice gaoler rather than an \napprentice torturer.\n\nTo expand: There is no suggestion in the relevant passages in UOTNS that \nYmar's organization is a 'guild' in the way that the goldsmiths, \nupholsterers, witches, curators, beast-masters, bombardiers (matrosses), \nhealers, torturers, jewellers (of whom the cloisonne-makers appear to be \na division), whatever are 'guilds' in Severian's time (nor indeed that \nany of these guilds are in existence in anything like their later \nforms); Ymar's crew are more like a military formation, perhaps \ncomparable to military police responsible for a prison. The Conciliator \nis imprisoned, but there is no suggestion that I can recall that he is \nliable to be tortured as a punishment (though he probably thought he \nmight well be executed - MPs do that on occasion, without necessarily \nbecoming 'torturers' in the process).\n\nHaving said that, there's textual evidence that Ymar's organisation both \nis, and is not the same guild as Severian's. Ymar's \"guild\" or military \nformation accepts both men and women, even has a female boss - actually \nit's probably this unpleasant boss who is ultimately responsible for men \nand women being separated by Ymar as Autarch into torturers and witches, \nie. for the Autarchial decision which gives birth to the Seekers of \nTruth and Penitence (and of course to their sister guild, the Witches) \nas Severian knows them.\n\nI know that Sev speaks of the historical cruelty of female guild-members \nand their predilection to go beyond the sentences handed out by the \ncourts, and states that this is the reason for the absence of female \ntorturers and also for the handing over of female children to be raised \nby the witches instead - but this in itself does not prove that the \nprimary function of the pre-separation \"guild\" was torture. There's \nplenty of opportunity in running a gaol to go beyond judicial sentences, \nif you are the sole boss and not subject to all that much scrutiny. \nSeverian himself discovers this during his brief tenure as Lictor of \nThrax - though to his credit he chose the opposite path, and did what he \ncould to mitigate the miserable lot of the Vincula prisoners so that \ntheir confinement would provide the exact punishment prescribed, no more \nand no less.\n\nJD" } ] }, { "message_id": "<17ec46f0a1d8cb7f2f35ac68c85a4008.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T06:21:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Torturers? (was: Re: Ymar The Almost Just)", "in_reply_to": "<4C50BFDC.6070306@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A torturer insists upon being told the truth, and has various means to\nensure that he is being told the truth.\n\nThese seem to me to be useful qualifications for a successful monarch.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 19/07/10 14:04, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I put that in the subject because it's one of the things that made me\nlaugh when I first read the books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's kind of like the medieval Bulgarian (I think?) monarch who was\nknown as 'Theophylact the Unbearable'! May have gotten the country\nwrong there; for those who want to check, Theophylact is referenced in\nStephen Runciman's 'The Medieval Manichee'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wasn't Ymar a torturer?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Uh no, he wasn't. At least, not in the way Severian is a torturer. Ymar\nwas an apprentice in the very earliest days of the guild, when it is\nremembered that the Towers are actually spacecraft, though also accepted\nthat they are craft that due to circumstances will never be able to\nventure into space and have already been re-purposed to some extent\n(what will later be Severian's Matachin Tower is known as 'the hulk',\nfor instance). The function that Ymar and his seniors seem to fulfill\nhere is not that of torturer, but of gaoler. I think it is more\nappropriate to speak of Ymar as an apprentice gaoler rather than an\napprentice torturer.\n\nTo expand: There is no suggestion in the relevant passages in UOTNS that\nYmar's organization is a 'guild' in the way that the goldsmiths,\nupholsterers, witches, curators, beast-masters, bombardiers (matrosses),\nhealers, torturers, jewellers (of whom the cloisonne-makers appear to be\na division), whatever are 'guilds' in Severian's time (nor indeed that\nany of these guilds are in existence in anything like their later\nforms); Ymar's crew are more like a military formation, perhaps\ncomparable to military police responsible for a prison. The Conciliator\nis imprisoned, but there is no suggestion that I can recall that he is\nliable to be tortured as a punishment (though he probably thought he\nmight well be executed - MPs do that on occasion, without necessarily\nbecoming 'torturers' in the process).\n\nHaving said that, there's textual evidence that Ymar's organisation both\nis, and is not the same guild as Severian's. Ymar's \"guild\" or military\nformation accepts both men and women, even has a female boss - actually\nit's probably this unpleasant boss who is ultimately responsible for men\nand women being separated by Ymar as Autarch into torturers and witches,\nie. for the Autarchial decision which gives birth to the Seekers of\nTruth and Penitence (and of course to their sister guild, the Witches)\nas Severian knows them.\n\nI know that Sev speaks of the historical cruelty of female guild-members\nand their predilection to go beyond the sentences handed out by the\ncourts, and states that this is the reason for the absence of female\ntorturers and also for the handing over of female children to be raised\nby the witches instead - but this in itself does not prove that the\nprimary function of the pre-separation \"guild\" was torture. There's\nplenty of opportunity in running a gaol to go beyond judicial sentences,\nif you are the sole boss and not subject to all that much scrutiny.\nSeverian himself discovers this during his brief tenure as Lictor of\nThrax - though to his credit he chose the opposite path, and did what he\ncould to mitigate the miserable lot of the Vincula prisoners so that\ntheir confinement would provide the exact punishment prescribed, no more\nand no less.\n\nJD\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C59FE50.6010904@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2010-08-04T23:57:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Torturers?", "in_reply_to": "<17ec46f0a1d8cb7f2f35ac68c85a4008.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is specifically stated that torture in the Commonwealth is a \npunishment, not a means of obtaining truth. The Guild performs exactly \nthe tortures ordered, and the torturers are taught to completely ignore \nanything their victims say. Severian is chided for listening to a victim \nat one point during his apprenticeship.\n\nTorturers in our time may ostensibly be in search of truth, but the \nGuild is inflicting judicial punishment.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nA torturer insists upon being told the truth, and has various means to\nensure that he is being told the truth.\n\nThese seem to me to be useful qualifications for a successful monarch.\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5A010F.3010705@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-05T00:08:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Torturers?", "in_reply_to": "<4C59FE50.6010904@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the most part, yes. There are exceptions as noted by Gurloes.\n\nLet's say 20% Truth and 80% Penitence. Initially, the ratio may have \nbeen different." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Lebling wrote:\nIt is specifically stated that torture in the Commonwealth is a \npunishment, not a means of obtaining truth. The Guild performs exactly \nthe tortures ordered, and the torturers are taught to completely \nignore anything their victims say. Severian is chided for listening to \na victim at one point during his apprenticeship.\n\nTorturers in our time may ostensibly be in search of truth, but the \nGuild is inflicting judicial punishment.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A torturer insists upon being told the truth, and has various means to\nensure that he is being told the truth.\n\nThese seem to me to be useful qualifications for a successful monarch.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0090bfe51acada95026f8f56008736dd.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-05T00:09:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Torturers?", "in_reply_to": "<4C59FE50.6010904@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is specifically stated that torture in the Commonwealth is a\npunishment, not a means of obtaining truth. The Guild performs exactly\nthe tortures ordered, and the torturers are taught to completely ignore\nanything their victims say. Severian is chided for listening to a victim\nat one point during his apprenticeship.\n\nTorturers in our time may ostensibly be in search of truth, but the\nGuild is inflicting judicial punishment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't believe that this is the whole story. They are still the Seekers\nof Truth as well as Penitence, and some interrogation takes place, if I\nremember correctly, including the occasion of the maid being given the\nfull boot. Perhaps the queries of the interrogating authority are also\ndisregard and thus not recorded." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-05T00:25:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Torturers?", "in_reply_to": "<4C59FE50.6010904@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah. Torture is a good way to gain confessions, but not necessarily a way\nof getting the truth. If you waterboard me, I'll confess to the Lincoln\nassassination to make you stop.\n\nHowever, the guild is called the \"Order of the Seekers for Truth and\nPenitence.\" Does this imply that once torture was used to try to get the\ntruth out of suspects?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 7:57 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:\nIt is specifically stated that torture in the Commonwealth is a punishment,\nnot a means of obtaining truth. The Guild performs exactly the tortures\nordered, and the torturers are taught to completely ignore anything their\nvictims say. Severian is chided for listening to a victim at one point\nduring his apprenticeship.\n\nTorturers in our time may ostensibly be in search of truth, but the Guild\nis inflicting judicial punishment.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "A torturer insists upon being told the truth, and has various means to\nensure that he is being told the truth.\n\nThese seem to me to be useful qualifications for a successful monarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-05T00:46:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Torturers?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Jack Smith wrote:\nYeah. Torture is a good way to gain confessions, but not necessarily a way\nof getting the truth. If you waterboard me, I'll confess to the Lincoln\nassassination to make you stop.\n\nHowever, the guild is called the \"Order of the Seekers for Truth and\nPenitence.\" Does this imply that once torture was used to try to get the\ntruth out of suspects?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think so. It's also a neat parallel, as many have noted, with the Church\nand many other religious groups, which are organizations for people who seek\ntruth and penitence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 7:57 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is specifically stated that torture in the Commonwealth is a\npunishment, not a means of obtaining truth. The Guild performs exactly the\ntortures ordered, and the torturers are taught to completely ignore anything\ntheir victims say. Severian is chided for listening to a victim at one point\nduring his apprenticeship.\n\nTorturers in our time may ostensibly be in search of truth, but the Guild\nis inflicting judicial punishment.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "A torturer insists upon being told the truth, and has various means to\nensure that he is being told the truth.\n\nThese seem to me to be useful qualifications for a successful monarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5A119B.7010001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-05T01:19:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Torturers?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/4/2010 7:25 PM, Jack Smith wrote:\nYeah. Torture is a good way to gain confessions, but not necessarily \na way of getting the truth. If you waterboard me, I'll confess to the \nLincoln assassination to make you stop." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if a \"confession\" is all that is sought, then, yeah, torture isn't \nuseful for ascertaining the truth. But if the goal is information, and \nthe subject _has_ that information, then I suppose torture would work \njust fine. I mean, if one would confess to the Lincoln assassination \nunder duress, I suppose he might also give up his _actual_ \nco-conspirators and their future plans.\n\nIt would be easy enough to learn whether the subject is making things up \njust to make you stop." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/4/2010 6:57 PM, Dave Lebling wrote:\nIt is specifically stated that torture in the Commonwealth is a \npunishment, not a means of obtaining truth. The Guild performs exactly \nthe tortures ordered, and the torturers are taught to completely \nignore anything their victims say. Severian is chided for listening to \na victim at one point during his apprenticeship. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I presumed it was only apprentices who were taught to ignore victims \nwords. Master tortures are those assigned to seeking truth.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5A25AB.6080207@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-05T02:44:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Torturers?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, there is your own penitence, and then there is other peoples' \npenitence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Jack Smith > wrote:\n\n Yeah. Torture is a good way to gain confessions, but not\n necessarily a way of getting the truth. If you waterboard me,\n I'll confess to the Lincoln assassination to make you stop.\n\n However, the guild is called the \"Order of the Seekers for Truth\n and Penitence.\" Does this imply that once torture was used to try\n to get the truth out of suspects?\n\n \n \nI think so. It's also a neat parallel, as many have noted, with the \nChurch and many other religious groups, which are organizations for \npeople who seek truth and penitence.\n \n \n\n\n\n On Wed, Aug 4, 2010 at 7:57 PM, Dave Lebling > wrote:\n\n It is specifically stated that torture in the Commonwealth is\n a punishment, not a means of obtaining truth. The Guild\n performs exactly the tortures ordered, and the torturers are\n taught to completely ignore anything their victims say.\n Severian is chided for listening to a victim at one point\n during his apprenticeship.\n\n Torturers in our time may ostensibly be in search of truth,\n but the Guild is inflicting judicial punishment.\n\n -- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha\n\n brunians at brunians.org wrote:\n\n A torturer insists upon being told the truth, and has\n various means to\n ensure that he is being told the truth.\n\n These seem to me to be useful qualifications for a\n successful monarch.\n \n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5B5957.4050002@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T00:37:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) seeking the truth (was: Re: Torturers?)", "in_reply_to": "<4C5A119B.7010001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 05/08/10 02:19, James Wynn wrote:\n\nI presumed it was only apprentices who were taught to ignore victims \nwords. Master tortures are those assigned to seeking truth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think this can be quite accurate since in the context of \nSeverian pretending to have forgotten the rule about 'clients' ' words, \nMaster Gurloes reminds him of the 'bad old days' when journeymen of the \nGuild were deafened (possibly as a part of the ritual of elevation) - \nprecisely, one is given to suppose, in order that they should not attend \nto anything said by the 'client'. The implication is that the condition \nis permanent, and so a deaf journeyman will make a deaf Master, who will \nnot consequently be in a position to act as interrogator.\n\nAlso I am sure there is a place in the early chapters of *Shadow* which \nmentions the possible presence at an 'excruciation' of a judicial \nofficial (what was the term? I'm sure it wasn't 'inquisitor' - far too \nobvious!- but none the less it was fairly clear that the person's role \ninvolved interrogation; I can't find the place right now but I'm sure \nsomeone will remember it) who appears to be tasked with the \ninterrogation of the accused.\n\nAs someone else said, the Guild's purpose at Severian's time involves \njudicial punishment and nothing else. The do not determine sentences, \nthey do not question them, they are not interrogators; they just do what \nthe courts require them to do.\n\nIn fact - it has to be said - they are 'just obeying orders'. One of the \nnotable things Severian does during his odyssey is break free of the \nearly conditioning that has brought so many of his 'brothers' to accept \nwhat they do and continue on the path of the torturer.\n\njd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "u+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5B5F4D.8060207@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T01:03:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) seeking the truth", "in_reply_to": "<4C5B5957.4050002@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/5/2010 7:37 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nAlso I am sure there is a place in the early chapters of *Shadow* which\nmentions the possible presence at an 'excruciation' of a judicial\nofficial (what was the term? I'm sure it wasn't 'inquisitor' - far too\nobvious!- but none the less it was fairly clear that the person's role\ninvolved interrogation; I can't find the place right now but I'm sure\nsomeone will remember it) who appears to be tasked with the\ninterrogation of the accused." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "SHADOW, VII: \"At last the time would come, to men and women alike, when \ninstead of a journeyman with food, Master Gurloes would appear trailing \nthree or four journeymen and perhaps an examiner and a fulgurator.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5B635C.7040008@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T01:20:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) seeking the truth", "in_reply_to": "<4C5B5F4D.8060207@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/08/10 02:03, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 8/5/2010 7:37 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also I am sure there is a place in the early chapters of *Shadow* which\nmentions the possible presence at an 'excruciation' of a judicial\nofficial (what was the term? I'm sure it wasn't 'inquisitor' - far too\nobvious!- but none the less it was fairly clear that the person's role\ninvolved interrogation; I can't find the place right now but I'm sure\nsomeone will remember it) who appears to be tasked with the\ninterrogation of the accused." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "SHADOW, VII: \"At last the time would come, to men and women alike, \nwhen instead of a journeyman with food, Master Gurloes would appear \ntrailing three or four journeymen and perhaps an examiner and a \nfulgurator.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "thank you thank you thank you that's it of course.\n\nshould never post without the book of course, apologies.\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T02:43:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) seeking the truth", "in_reply_to": "<4C5B5F4D.8060207@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fulgurator as in someone who practices diathermy? What would the examiner do? Is it a good cop/bad cop thing? One's doing the flaying, one's relieving the pain enough to keep the excruciation going?\n\nWhose the interrogator?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 5, 2010, at 9:03 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nSHADOW, VII: \"At last the time would come, to men and women alike, when instead of a journeyman with food, Master Gurloes would appear trailing three or four journeymen and perhaps an examiner and a fulgurator.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5B8339.1060905@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T03:36:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) seeking the truth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/5/2010 9:43 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nFulgurator as in someone who practices diathermy? What would the examiner do? Is it a good cop/bad cop thing? One's doing the flaying, one's relieving the pain enough to keep the excruciation going?\n\nWhose the interrogator?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My guess would be that the examiner is the crown's representative, the \nway medical examiners / coroners determine the cause of death, and that \na fulgurator who uses \"lightning\" for divination, is a polygraph \nexaminer writ large." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T03:56:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) seeking the truth", "in_reply_to": "<4C5B8339.1060905@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 5, 2010, at 11:36 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nMy guess would be that the examiner is the crown's representative, the way medical examiners / coroners determine the cause of death, and that a fulgurator who uses \"lightning\" for divination, is a polygraph examiner writ large." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really? I wouldn't have guessed polygraph examiner from fulgurator, but I could be off target.\n\nI see traces to the Latin root fulgur which means a flash of lightning. In Latin, a fulgurator can be a hurler of lightning, as in Jupiter. But it also can mean a person who interprets flashes of lightning.\n\nBut perhaps more appropriately I see the medicinal \"fulguration\" which uses diathermy to destroy areas of tissue. Diathermy uses electrical currents to heat up parts of the body (skin, etc.). This can be used to clot bleeding vessels, relieve pain, or kill dead tissue.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1DA42176-7921-4DF4-99E8-F4B78C5F47D6@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T04:09:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) seeking the truth", "in_reply_to": "<4C5B8339.1060905@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 5, 2010, at 11:36 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nMy guess would be that the examiner is the crown's representative, the way medical examiners / coroners determine the cause of death, and that a fulgurator who uses \"lightning\" for divination, is a polygraph examiner writ large." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From \"Roman and European Mythologies\" by Yves Bonnefoy, 1991:\n\n\"The observation and interpretation of lightning bolts was left to a special priest called a fulgurator.\"\n\nApparently there were gods who threw lightning bolts from the heavens down to earth, and a fulgurator would investigate where they struck alleging them to be divinations. There were good and bad bolts, public and private ones, bolts that gave advice, others that gave orders. Some fulgurators would perform purification rites at the lightning strike sites, setting small stones down where the energy was said to remain trapped under the surface.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5B94AB.5070508@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T04:50:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) seeking the truth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/5/2010 10:56 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Aug 5, 2010, at 11:36 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My guess would be that the examiner is the crown's representative, the way medical examiners / coroners determine the cause of death, and that a fulgurator who uses \"lightning\" for divination, is a polygraph examiner writ large." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Really? I wouldn't have guessed polygraph examiner from fulgurator, but I could be off target.\n\nI see traces to the Latin root fulgur which means a flash of lightning. In Latin, a fulgurator can be a hurler of lightning, as in Jupiter. But it also can mean a person who interprets flashes of lightning.\n\nBut perhaps more appropriately I see the medicinal \"fulguration\" which uses diathermy to destroy areas of tissue. Diathermy uses electrical currents to heat up parts of the body (skin, etc.). This can be used to clot bleeding vessels, relieve pain, or kill dead tissue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We already know that the torturers supply medical attention to clients, \nso that would not be a separate specialty. There is also an association \nof electrical gear with lightning in Gurloes' misremembrance of what \nmakes The Revolutionary go." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T04:54:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) seeking the truth", "in_reply_to": "<4C5B94AB.5070508@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Aug 6, 2010, at 12:50 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nMy guess would be that the examiner is the crown's representative, the way medical examiners / coroners determine the cause of death, and that a fulgurator who uses \"lightning\" for divination, is a polygraph examiner writ large." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Really? I wouldn't have guessed polygraph examiner from fulgurator, but I could be off target.\n\nI see traces to the Latin root fulgur which means a flash of lightning. In Latin, a fulgurator can be a hurler of lightning, as in Jupiter. But it also can mean a person who interprets flashes of lightning.\n\nBut perhaps more appropriately I see the medicinal \"fulguration\" which uses diathermy to destroy areas of tissue. Diathermy uses electrical currents to heat up parts of the body (skin, etc.). This can be used to clot bleeding vessels, relieve pain, or kill dead tissue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We already know that the torturers supply medical attention to clients, so that would not be a separate specialty. There is also an association of electrical gear with lightning in Gurloes' misremembrance of what makes The Revolutionary go." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, so is your idea that the fulgurator \"divines\" the truth the way the priests of old divined the meaning of lightning strikes from the gods? Or do you see the fulgurator as an interrogator who uses some electrodes and a polygraph to get intel? Or neither? Or both?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5B9F23.3040304@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T05:35:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) seeking the truth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/5/2010 11:54 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nSure, so is your idea that the fulgurator \"divines\" the truth the way\nthe priests of old divined the meaning of lightning strikes from the\ngods? Or do you see the fulgurator as an interrogator who uses some\nelectrodes and a polygraph to get intel? Or neither? Or both?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the fulgurator uses electronic technology to determine if the \nclient is speaking truthfully. They probably monitor and discretely \nrelay the level of verity to the examiner proper, who concentrates on \nquestioning and applying duress through the torturers." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5BFBED.8080909@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-06T12:11:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) seeking the truth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All of those, I'm sure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Aug 5, 2010, at 11:36 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "My guess would be that the examiner is the crown's representative, the way medical examiners / coroners determine the cause of death, and that a fulgurator who uses \"lightning\" for divination, is a polygraph examiner writ large.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Really? I wouldn't have guessed polygraph examiner from fulgurator, but I could be off target.\n\nI see traces to the Latin root fulgur which means a flash of lightning. In Latin, a fulgurator can be a hurler of lightning, as in Jupiter. But it also can mean a person who interprets flashes of lightning.\n\nBut perhaps more appropriately I see the medicinal \"fulguration\" which uses diathermy to destroy areas of tissue. Diathermy uses electrical currents to heat up parts of the body (skin, etc.). This can be used to clot bleeding vessels, relieve pain, or kill dead tissue.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<137519.80310.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T15:35:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) seeking the truth", "in_reply_to": "<4C5B8339.1060905@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nOn 8/5/2010 9:43 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fulgurator as in someone who practices diathermy? What would the examiner do? \nIs it a good cop/bad cop\nthing? One's doing the flaying, one's relieving the pain enough to keep the \nexcruciation going?\n\nWhose the interrogator?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My guess would be that the examiner is the crown's representative, the way \nmedical examiners / coroners\ndetermine the cause of death," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll agree if his job in this case is to determine the guilt for a crime. In \nother words, I think the examiner is the interrogator." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and that a fulgurator who uses \"lightning\" for divination, is a polygraph \nexaminer writ large." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd assumed that the fulgurator was an electrician (and was amused by the idea \nthat the word Gurloes can't remember might be \"fulgor\" or some such rather than \n\"electricity\"). But I like your suggestion better.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] } ] }