{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5668", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5668, "subject": "Undines", "messages": 19, "voices": 10, "first": "2010-07-20T02:58:40+00:00", "last": "2010-07-21T11:43:16+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-20T02:58:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Or perhaps she survived through her gift of superhuman powers, similar \nto her brother, Severian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAs Severian's powers of resurrection are an echo of his ability to resurrect the sun?\nHm, could be.\n \nBrother Severian, eh? Well, the bizarre sexual attraction between Severian and Jururna\nmight suggest a family relationship between them. Some other connections also. But, as\nhas been mentioned in other threads, we don't have the proper kinship terms for beings\nrelated by both sexual and asexual reproduction. Daughter-brides? Half-sisters? Khaibit?\nI guess these are WOlfe's attempts to translate such terms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The undines claim to swim between the stars, presumably they could bear \nsome part of their masters with them, the parts small enough and manlike \nenough to be able to have \"lives\" recorded...perhaps it's them that are \nthe Hierogrammates counterparts, or even literally their parts, exiled \nfrom the larger bodies like the little Tzadkerbell at the Brook Madregot.\nAnyway, if they arrived as beans, presumably star-swimming undines could \ncarry them away as beans, they might use their mighty powers of mind to \ncommand fliers to descend and take their spawn to nearby planets where \nfurther ships await..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI like this general train of thought. There is something about the ubiquity\nof Undines on Urth (and maybe the stuff going on in Blue's waters) which\nsuggests they might have a key role in transportation and genesis of \nmegatherians.\n \nI have always questioned if we should take their swimming between the stars\nliterally, though. Island sized Tzadkiel aside, swimming through the void seems\nlike a physics-defying task for a biological creature (can Inhumi realy do it, even\nfor their much shorter distance between planets?)\n \nI think there might be some hints that undines ride on The Ship. We see one of them,\nIdas, on the ship with Severian. Also, when Severian enters the ship stateroom of B, F\nand O, he describes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am tempted to write that it appeared to be underwater, but it did not. Rather we\nseemed immersed in some fluid that was not water, but was to some other world what\nwater was to Urth; or perhaps that we were underwater indeed, but water so cold it\nwould have been frozen in any lake of the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSeverian goes on to waffle, saying it was all a trick of the light. He also goes on to \nsuggest that their chambers suggest to B, F and O (not really O though) that the nature of \ntheir chambers suggests they were descended from creatures like kelpies.\n \nA kelpie is a somewhat malevolent Celtic water horse creature which can take the form of\na woman to lure people to their death. It seems related to nixies, mermaids, sirens etc.,\nthus establishing a possible link between hierodules and undines. Perhaps swimming between\nthe stars really involves splashing around a liquidy stateroom on Tzadkiel's ship?\n \nOn the other hand, Severian runs into an undine on Ushas who is pretty impressive in pointing\nin the direction of superhuman dimensions. Perhaps they do swim between the stars using mastery\nof time? Or are they on the ship? I dunno which explanation is best. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C452522.8050502@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-20T04:25:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/19/2010 9:58 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Or perhaps she survived through her gift of superhuman powers, similar\nto her brother, Severian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As Severian's powers of resurrection are an echo of his ability to resurrect the sun?\nHm, could be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Juturna doesn't seem to have literal resurrection, though she does save \nthe life of Severian after he has ceased to breathe. But maybe she was \npreventing him from discovering his water breathing gift too soon?\n\nIn short: both breathe water, both have access to the higher dimensions, \nboth show up at times with anachronistic knowledge.\nBoth appear to be otherwise human beings who have been gifted with these \nextraodrinary powers. No other people native to Urth in the Old \nAutarch's time do these things.\n\nThey both repeatedly commit acts of mercy against the interests of their \nmasters. And who else but these two, in their time, is associated with \nfountains?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Brother Severian, eh? Well, the bizarre sexual attraction between Severian and Jururna\nmight suggest a family relationship between them. Some other connections also. But, as\nhas been mentioned in other threads, we don't have the proper kinship terms for beings\nrelated by both sexual and asexual reproduction. Daughter-brides? Half-sisters? Khaibit?\nI guess these are WOlfe's attempts to translate such terms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think she's just a plain jane sister, likely a twin sister, who went \nover/was given over to Abaia. She may watch over her \"little\" brother \nlike Miriam over Moses, or she may not know of their relation, only that \nthey seem drawn together for some reason; perhaps they both like to \nwatch a certain star's reflection on the waters, and feel some kind of \nconnection with it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I have always questioned if we should take their swimming between the stars\nliterally, though. Island sized Tzadkiel aside, swimming through the void seems\nlike a physics-defying task for a biological creature (can Inhumi realy do it, even\nfor their much shorter distance between planets?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If they have access to the fourth dimension and the Brook Madregot, that \nwould seem to make it much easier to transcend the bounds of atmosphere \nand orbital mechanics, the way the Green Man uses them to transcend the \nhuge gulfs of time between Severian's era and his own; at the very least \nthe Green Man's is covering a day per flash in the few minutes Severian \nspends watching him run, roughly a factor of 1500:1." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think there might be some hints that undines ride on The Ship. We see one of them,\nIdas, on the ship with Severian. Also, when Severian enters the ship stateroom of B, F\nand O, he describes:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Idas is presumed to be an undine due to his/her gills and complexion. Do \nthe other undines feature gills?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am tempted to write that it appeared to be underwater, but it did not. Rather we\nseemed immersed in some fluid that was not water, but was to some other world what\nwater was to Urth; or perhaps that we were underwater indeed, but water so cold it\nwould have been frozen in any lake of the Commonwealth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian goes on to waffle, saying it was all a trick of the light. He also goes on to\nsuggest that their chambers suggest to B, F and O (not really O though) that the nature of\ntheir chambers suggests they were descended from creatures like kelpies.\n\nA kelpie is a somewhat malevolent Celtic water horse creature which can take the form of\na woman to lure people to their death. It seems related to nixies, mermaids, sirens etc.,\nthus establishing a possible link between hierodules and undines. Perhaps swimming between\nthe stars really involves splashing around a liquidy stateroom on Tzadkiel's ship?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Fish is the most common creature of the mirrors, perhaps they are \nuplifted from it in some way? Fish-like or seal-like anatomy would seem \nboth impractical and presumptive for Yesodis, who only get to enjoy the \nislands of the outer shell after much accomplishment working among the \ninternal machinery, according to Alpheta." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the other hand, Severian runs into an undine on Ushas who is pretty impressive in pointing\nin the direction of superhuman dimensions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's Juturna, herself, drawn back to the drowned Citadel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps they do swim between the stars using mastery\nof time? Or are they on the ship? I dunno which explanation is best. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's so often the way with Wolfe, isn't it?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C45BFAC.90300@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-20T15:24:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C452522.8050502@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/19/2010 11:25 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nJuturna doesn't seem to have literal resurrection, though she does \nsave the life of Severian after he has ceased to breathe. But maybe \nshe was preventing him from discovering his water breathing gift too \nsoon? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought the implication of the skull Severian finds at the bottom of \nthe Gyoll after the flood is that he drowned when she met him at the \nbeginning of Shadow of the Torturer. The boy that left the river was an \naquastor.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C45D4FB.2000006@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-20T16:55:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C45BFAC.90300@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/20/2010 10:24 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 7/19/2010 11:25 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Juturna doesn't seem to have literal resurrection, though she does\nsave the life of Severian after he has ceased to breathe. But maybe\nshe was preventing him from discovering his water breathing gift too\nsoon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought the implication of the skull Severian finds at the bottom of\nthe Gyoll after the flood is that he drowned when she met him at the\nbeginning of Shadow of the Torturer. The boy that left the river was an\naquastor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is he also an aquastor/eidolon at the time he finds the skull, though? \nPresumably an aquastor can be tuned to not need air, but Aquastor \nMalrubius says the spacecraft from Yesod have a projection limitation of \na few thousand years - after Sev takes his leave of Juturna at the \nflooded Citadel, he immediately steps onto Apu Punchau's pampas in a \ntime at least 6400 years previous." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-20T17:22:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C45BFAC.90300@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/19/2010 11:25 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Juturna doesn't seem to have literal resurrection, though she does\nsave the life of Severian after he has ceased to breathe. But maybe\nshe was preventing him from discovering his water breathing gift too\nsoon?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought the implication of the skull Severian finds at the bottom of\nthe Gyoll after the flood is that he drowned when she met him at the\nbeginning of Shadow of the Torturer. The boy that left the river was an\naquastor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is more than one way to look at it, as there normally (regularly?)\nare in fact when these things happen.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-20T18:18:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Presumably an aquastor can be tuned to not need air" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWow, that is a very interesting consideration. Severian has various\nsuperhuman powers...could each of them have been endowed during his\nduplication as an eidolon?\n \nIf so, perhaps his first divine manifestation, healing and resurrection,\noccurred during his \"rescue\" from drowning by the undine. It was fairly\nsoon after that when his first miracle occurred (Triskele).\n \nWe are led to believe Severian gains his connection to the New Sun/White\nFountain via intercourse with Apheta. I hope she didn't have to kill him\nfor that to happen (though many female bugs do that sort of thing).\n \nElsewhere, aren't we told that Severian's Yesod tests were all a sham? \nAnd that Tzadkiel had already imbued Severian with his White Fountain \nconnection on the ship. Again we have the possibility that eidolon \nformation allows this.\n \n(on a side note, how did Baldanders gain the ability to breathe under \nwater? Some have pointed to evidence that he met up with an undine at \nthe end of shadow and that was the mysterious incident at the gate.\n \nIf not that then perhaps he became a water-breathing eidolon at the end\nof Sword. He had B, F and O above him and perhaps Juturna and Abaia in the\nlake below him. Perhaps either were capable of doing it though one seems \nmore likely than the other. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-20T18:24:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n(on a side note, how did Baldanders gain the ability to breathe under\nwater?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Self-modification, just like his size and longevity..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9919c3eb0f5c904ece64f0bd29868d6d.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-20T18:34:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not actually that difficult.\n\nYou need a bigger spleen and more efficient lungs.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Lee Berman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(on a side note, how did Baldanders gain the ability to breathe under\nwater?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Self-modification, just like his size and longevity...\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-20T18:36:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "<9919c3eb0f5c904ece64f0bd29868d6d.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I could go that way if I was willing to do the kind of things that\nBaldanders is willing to do.\n\nIt is helpful to him that he is gay.\n\nYou could get your boyfriend to help you with something like this.\n\nOf course you'd both have to be sort of fucked up people.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not actually that difficult.\n\nYou need a bigger spleen and more efficient lungs.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Lee Berman \nwrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(on a side note, how did Baldanders gain the ability to breathe under\nwater?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Self-modification, just like his size and longevity...\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-20T18:52:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \n(on a side note, how did Baldanders gain the ability to breathe under\nwater? Some have pointed to evidence that he met up with an undine at\nthe end of shadow and that was the mysterious incident at the gate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He has gills: Severian notices strange scars on his neck when he sleeps with \nhim in the inn.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-20T20:50:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We are led to believe Severian gains his connection to the New Sun/White\nFountain via intercourse with Apheta. I hope she didn't have to kill him\nfor that to happen (though many female bugs do that sort of thing)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I interpret this as the Yesodis collecting a gene sample so that the White\nFountain can be attuned to him; this may also explain some of Juturna's\ntranscending of dimension, since she shares roughly half his chromosomes.\nDespite the name, I don't think the White Fountain gives him underwater\nbreathing, since the its power is blocked by even the limb of the earth,\nand the stars don't shine deeply under the water." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Elsewhere, aren't we told that Severian's Yesod tests were all a sham?\nAnd that Tzadkiel had already imbued Severian with his White Fountain\nconnection on the ship. Again we have the possibility that eidolon\nformation allows this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I got the impression that there's no one time where he is imbued so much\nas the WF sends out power on a frequency that he receives whenever its\nlight shines upon him, including frequencies that pierce storms and\nclouds. This doesn't mean that he always has the skill or knowledge to use\nthat power, depending on where along his personal timeline he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If not that then perhaps he became a water-breathing eidolon at the end\nof Sword. He had B, F and O above him and perhaps Juturna and Abaia in the\nlake below him. Perhaps either were capable of doing it though one seems\nmore likely than the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Juturna tries to coax him into the water and apparently other people are\ntaken below the waves. If it isn't all a murder plot or dinner for the\nhungry undines, it implies that undines can convert humans to breathe\nwater, and perhaps that the converted humans may even breed\nwater-breathing children who later return to the land, like Idas. A\nsymbiote could be involved, similar to the Green Man's \"pond scum\".\n\nThere remains the question of where the undine in Severian's family tree\nis. Was Dorcas' husband some kind of spy for Abaia?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-20T21:02:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why not Dorcas herself? She has connection to rising from water/watery deaths.\n\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 3:50 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nWe are led to believe Severian gains his connection to the New Sun/White\nFountain via intercourse with Apheta. I hope she didn't have to kill him\nfor that to happen (though many female bugs do that sort of thing)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I interpret this as the Yesodis collecting a gene sample so that the White\nFountain can be attuned to him; this may also explain some of Juturna's\ntranscending of dimension, since she shares roughly half his chromosomes.\nDespite the name, I don't think the White Fountain gives him underwater\nbreathing, since the its power is blocked by even the limb of the earth,\nand the stars don't shine deeply under the water." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Elsewhere, aren't we told that Severian's Yesod tests were all a sham?\nAnd that Tzadkiel had already imbued Severian with his White Fountain\nconnection on the ship. Again we have the possibility that eidolon\nformation allows this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I got the impression that there's no one time where he is imbued so much\nas the WF sends out power on a frequency that he receives whenever its\nlight shines upon him, including frequencies that pierce storms and\nclouds. This doesn't mean that he always has the skill or knowledge to use\nthat power, depending on where along his personal timeline he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If not that then perhaps he became a water-breathing eidolon at the end\nof Sword. He had B, F and O above him and perhaps Juturna and Abaia in the\nlake below him. Perhaps either were capable of doing it though one seems\nmore likely than the other." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Juturna tries to coax him into the water and apparently other people are\ntaken below the waves. If it isn't all a murder plot or dinner for the\nhungry undines, it implies that undines can convert humans to breathe\nwater, and perhaps that the converted humans may even breed\nwater-breathing children who later return to the land, like Idas. A\nsymbiote could be involved, similar to the Green Man's \"pond scum\".\n\nThere remains the question of where the undine in Severian's family tree\nis. Was Dorcas' husband some kind of spy for Abaia?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5849320982d29f96aabcf76f8f9e2268.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-20T21:18:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why not Dorcas herself? She has connection to rising from water/watery\ndeaths." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I. Figuratively and posthumously.\nII. She recalls a family business making cloisonne pins or summat.\nIII. It would make the closest thing the Book has to an innocent person\ninto a cynical liar at best.\n\nHer husband the boatman, however..." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-20T22:54:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "<5849320982d29f96aabcf76f8f9e2268.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Idas is presumed to be an undine due to his/her gills and \ncomplexion. Do the other undines feature gills?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not seeing that Idas has gills though she does have concealed\nweb feet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn- I thought the implication of the skull Severian finds at the bottom of \nthe Gyoll after the flood is that he drowned when she met him at the \nbeginning of Shadow of the Torturer. The boy that left the river was an \naquastor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think that is a damn good guess. Especially since Severian lays that skull\nat the threshold of his mausoleum. Fits so nicely with Jeff's idea that \nSeverian's powers come to him during the process of resurrection. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Is he also an aquastor/eidolon at the time he finds the skull?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSurely but I think Severian dies and is resurrected as an eidolon several times\n(probably five). Maybe he gets a new superpower each time. He probably died in\nthe Flood. He says he was underwater a long time before he found the raft. \nLater, Eata thinks he is an eidolon. And when Severian meets Jurturna he says,\n\"You lived\". She replies, \"You did not\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians- There is more than one way to look at it, as there normally (regularly?)\nare in fact when these things happen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, Severian contemplating the skull is probably a reference to another suicidal\nguy, Hamlet. But I like James Wynn's interpretation as the proximate plot explanation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians- I could go that way if I was willing to do the kind of things that\nBaldanders is willing to do. It is helpful to him that he is gay.You could get your\nboyfriend to help you with something like this. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nUsually, being gay is not considered the same sexual orientation as being a pedophile.\nInterestingly, Severian compares Idas to Baldanders' catamite baby. Those pagan gods- \nthey were all such perverts. Unfortuately, Severian has his own pedophilic moment...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- He has gills: Severian notices strange scars on his neck when he sleeps with \nhim in the inn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHe does notice strange scars around Baldanders' neck and ears. I always took this to be \nanother Frankenstein allusion. But you could be right that Severian misidentifies gills. \nInteresting connection to a recent thread, the original title to Mary Shelley's book was\n*Frankenstein, or the Modern Prometheus*" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- There remains the question of where the undine in Severian's family tree\nis. Was Dorcas' husband some kind of spy for Abaia?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, he does mention undines, well, \"manatees\" as does Maxellindis' uncle. I still can't \nshake the boatman's resemblance to Father Inire. Could be him. Though recent mythological\nreadings remind me that the pagan gods who wanted to sleep with human women often did it\nby shapeshifting into their husbands' form. Dorcas pulls severian up but perhaps it is\nanother hand in the lake which was pulling him down, earlier." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lane Haygood- Why not Dorcas herself? She has connection to rising from water/watery deaths." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nArgh, how could you sully Dorcas like that? But she does consider herself an \"unclean spirit\"\nwith vampiress leanings. She seems too sincere to be a spy, (she voluntarily leaves Severian) \nbut I think her past has been marked by mating with demons/pagan gods/fallen angels. In the \nplay as Meschiane she mentions talking to a beam of light which was not a beam of light. This\nalludes to Zeus' mating with Danae as a shower of gold, I think.\n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C467E7B.2050603@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-21T04:58:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Speaking of monsters ... what was the giant thing deep beneath the \nmines, that scared the man-apes?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Tue, Jul 20, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(on a side note, how did Baldanders gain the ability to breathe under\nwater?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Self-modification, just like his size and longevity...\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4680B4.60801@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-21T05:08:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C467E7B.2050603@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/20/2010 11:58 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSpeaking of monsters ... what was the giant thing deep beneath the \nmines, that scared the man-apes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm going with \"Balrog.\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2010-07-21T09:58:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C4680B4.60801@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nI thought the implication of the skull Severian finds at the bottom of\nthe Gyoll after the flood is that he drowned when she met him at the\nbeginning of Shadow of the Torturer. The boy that left the river was an\naquastor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "and Lee Berman:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Severian dies and is resurrected as an eidolon several times\n(probably five)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. At the end of UotNS, Famulimus tells Severian that\nthe Sev who died on Tzadkiel's ship 'was the son your mother bore', or\nwords to that effect.\n\nIf Severian dies, he just self-resurrects in the same body. He doesn't\nneed aquastors unless he's cut off from the white fountain.\n\nI think the significance of the skull is what it symbolises." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-21T11:41:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "sorry, another copy of this was filed under subject #. Typo.\n \nI think Severian dies and is resurrected as an eidolon several times\n(probably five)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so. At the end of UotNS, Famulimus tells Severian that\nthe Sev who died on Tzadkiel's ship 'was the son your mother bore', or\nwords to that effect. If Severian dies, he just self-resurrects in the\nsame body. He doesn't need aquastors unless he's cut off from the white fountain.\nI think the significance of the skull is what it symbolises." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOh, yes, I'd forgotten that line. Thanks Tony. It does seem rather explicit.\nA shame it can obliterate a nice theory. With Severian's death underwater or on\nthe battlefield we can imagine a dead body surreptitiously replaced by an eidolon\nas a possibility. But not on the Sanguinary Fields. Somehow a dead copy of \nSeverian's body would have to be mentioned by Dorcas or Hildegrin later. That was \nsurely self-resurrection.\n \nSo perhaps all of Severian's power, resurrection, healing, water breathing were \nbestowed when he became an eidolon/aquastor on the Ship. And his powers are at\nleast nascent as long as the White Fountain is within range.\n \nMakes me wonder why Severian never had any expression of his power before Triskele.\nAs a torturer there would be no shortage of injuries and dead bodies around. I expect\nit would be noticed if they started healing and coming back to life. Perhaps it was\nseeing the image of his dead mother in the grave which triggered his abilities into\naction. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C46DD54.4090509@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-21T11:43:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C4680B4.60801@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It does almost repeat the Moria scene, doesn't it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Adam Thornton wrote:\nOn 07/20/2010 11:58 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Speaking of monsters ... what was the giant thing deep beneath the \nmines, that scared the man-apes?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm going with \"Balrog.\"\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! 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