{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5670", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5670, "subject": "#", "messages": 4, "voices": 3, "first": "2010-07-21T11:39:54+00:00", "last": "2010-07-22T02:32:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-21T11:39:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) #", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Severian dies and is resurrected as an eidolon several times\n(probably five)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think so. At the end of UotNS, Famulimus tells Severian that\nthe Sev who died on Tzadkiel's ship 'was the son your mother bore', or\nwords to that effect. If Severian dies, he just self-resurrects in the\nsame body. He doesn't need aquastors unless he's cut off from the white fountain.\nI think the significance of the skull is what it symbolises." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOh, yes, I'd forgotten that line. Thanks Tony. It does seem rather explicit.\nA shame it can obliterate a nice theory. With Severian's death underwater or on\nthe battlefield we can imagine a dead body surreptitiously replaced by an eidolon\nas a possibility. But not on the Sanguinary Fields. Somehow a dead copy of \nSeverian's body would have to be mentioned by Dorcas or Hildegrin later. That was \nsurely self-resurrection.\n \nSo perhaps all of Severian's power, resurrection, healing, water breathing were \nbestowed when he became an eidolon/aquastor on the Ship. And his powers are at\nleast nascent as long as the White Fountain is within range.\n \nMakes me wonder why Severian never had any expression of his power before Triskele.\nAs a torturer there would be no shortage of injuries and dead bodies around. I expect\nit would be noticed if they started healing and coming back to life. Perhaps it was\nseeing the image of his dead mother in the grave which triggered his abilities into\naction. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C474E42.8010708@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-21T19:45:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) #", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/21/2010 6:39 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nI think Severian dies and is resurrected as an eidolon several times\n(probably five)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think so. At the end of UotNS, Famulimus tells Severian that\nthe Sev who died on Tzadkiel's ship 'was the son your mother bore', or\nwords to that effect. If Severian dies, he just self-resurrects in the\nsame body. He doesn't need aquastors unless he's cut off from the white fountain.\nI think the significance of the skull is what it symbolises." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the original, all-meat Severian lasted until the Ship, the skull from \nGyoll can't be his, nor a symbol for his mortal remains since he didn't \nleave any. I'd taken it to symbolize the previous time-loop iteration \nthat he supposes did die, the way the multiple slots in the mausoleum do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, yes, I'd forgotten that line. Thanks Tony. It does seem rather explicit.\nA shame it can obliterate a nice theory. With Severian's death underwater or on\nthe battlefield we can imagine a dead body surreptitiously replaced by an eidolon\nas a possibility. But not on the Sanguinary Fields. Somehow a dead copy of\nSeverian's body would have to be mentioned by Dorcas or Hildegrin later. That was\nsurely self-resurrection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As was his recovery from the ray at the jailers' keep." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So perhaps all of Severian's power, resurrection, healing, water breathing were\nbestowed when he became an eidolon/aquastor on the Ship. And his powers are at\nleast nascent as long as the White Fountain is within range." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems out of sequence, he demonstrates resurrection and healing \nduring the first four volumes.\n\nI'd like to take credit for an idea that seems to have caught on, but \nwhen I said aquastors presumably could be turned to breathe water, I \nmeant that as unliving projected images they needn't be dependent on air \nor any other necessities of life. Indeed, Aquastor Triskele is heard \neven after his physical form has dissipated. They can take advantage of \ncartoon conceits, since they are effectively 3D cartoons.\n\nOf course, the level of fidelity needed to make an aquastor that *can* \neat, breathe, etc. and eventually accumulate enough mass to continue \nindependently after the projection stops might further allow alterations \nin its bodyily plan, but there is no sign that this is ever done, even \nwhen one would think it would be greatly helpful to do so, like \nrestoring Severian's leg.\n\nThough this could mean that when Sev is eidoloned after his fall on the \nship, they either chose to reproduce him at a time when he received \nconsiderable but not fatal injuries, chose a time when he had received \notherwise mortal injuries but applied sufficient life-saving arts before \nhe awoke, or they chose a time before he was injured in the fall for \nmaximum fidelity of reproduction and then carefully monitored and beat \nhim while unconscious to provide a convincing amount of injury for when \nhe awoke." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Makes me wonder why Severian never had any expression of his power before Triskele.\nAs a torturer there would be no shortage of injuries and dead bodies around. I expect\nit would be noticed if they started healing and coming back to life. Perhaps it was\nseeing the image of his dead mother in the grave which triggered his abilities into\naction. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or perhaps those traumas were perceived as just and did not arouse in \nhim any feeling of sympathy. Which would make for an interesting \ninterpretation of his feelings for Thecla and the nature of her trauma." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-21T23:38:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) #", "in_reply_to": "<4C474E42.8010708@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- when I said aquastors presumably could be turned to breathe water, I \nmeant that as unliving projected images they needn't be dependent on air \nor any other necessities of life......since they are effectively 3D cartoons." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOr holograms? Wolfe does invoke them in the first few chapters and eidolons can \nshatter and become silver shards or something like that. Anyway, I guess they \ngain real substance by eating and drinking and adding read atoms to their bodies\nor something like that (say B, F and o?).\n \n \n \nSo perhaps all of Severian's power, resurrection, healing, water breathing were\nbestowed when he became an eidolon/aquastor on the Ship. And his powers are at\nleast nascent as long as the White Fountain is within range." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- This seems out of sequence, he demonstrates resurrection and healing \nduring the first four volumes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nI think we are meant to understand that the Ship is travelling outside of time\nand temporal sequencing there has little meaning, relative to Urth.\n \nDuring the first four volumes the White Fountain is in existence and\nhurtling toward Urth. In fact it is much closer to Urth than when Severian takes\nconscious control of his power back in Typhon's era.\n \nWe are told the White Fountain is an aspect of Severian himself. So, when he was \nborn it was under a star which was already a part of him and it had the potential\nto convey divine power to him throughout most of his life, conscious of it or not.\n(perhaps this is an allusion to another famous birth star?).\n\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<730340.56682.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-22T02:32:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) #", "in_reply_to": "<4C474E42.8010708@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nOn 7/21/2010 6:39 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Makes me wonder why Severian never had any expression of his power before \nTriskele.\nAs a torturer there would be no shortage of injuries and dead bodies around. I \nexpect\nit would be noticed if they started healing and coming back to life. Perhaps it \nwas\nseeing the image of his dead mother in the grave which triggered his abilities \ninto\naction. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or perhaps those traumas were perceived as just and did not arouse in him any \nfeeling of sympathy. Which\nwould make for an interesting interpretation of his feelings for Thecla and the \nnature of her trauma." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect it's more about compassion than justice. Severian has been trained to \nthink of those people as \"clients\", the way sellers (not just Agia and Agilus) \nthink of buyers. Just as their words convey no more meaning than the squeaking \nof mice, their suffering doesn't arouse compassion in him. Triskele's suffering \ndoes.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] } ] }