On Pedophilia and Homosexuality
The Urth list — 15 messages, 7 voices, 21 Jul 2010
https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5671
Nicholas21 Jul 2010, 16:35
Wolfe tends to use classical Christian and Greco-Roman perceptions of nature. As such there wouldn't be a great (and very post '70's) chasm between homosexuality and pedophillia. Badlanders in such an understanding is very interested in the attention of men (not so much "gay" as that is a modern construct). He's interested in men because they are like him and he is his own idol.
Seen in this light all men have a tendancy to be sexually attracted to other men in some degree. Severian notices this, groks it, rejects it, and then accepts his first taste of Father hood. He loves as a man rather than an adolecent (in a moment that reminds me of Marcus Aurelius' reflections on the matter). That is he learns to love another rather than the image of himself, even through loss. Little Severian therfore prepares him to sacrifice for the good and further seperates him from Badlanders.
Gerry Quinn21 Jul 2010, 17:04
↳ in reply to Nicholas
2 quoted lines
From: "Nicholas" <nickjost at yahoo.com>
Wolfe tends to use classical Christian and Greco-Roman perceptions of nature. As such there wouldn't be a great (and very post '70's) chasm between homosexuality and pedophillia. Badlanders in such an understanding is very interested in the attention of men (not so much "gay" as that is a modern construct). He's interested in men because they are like him and he is his own idol.
I don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man.
- Gerry Quinn
brunians at brunians.org21 Jul 2010, 18:31
↳ in reply to Nicholas
Very interesting.
.
5 quoted lines
Wolfe tends to use classical Christian and Greco-Roman perceptions of nature. As such there wouldn't be a great (and very post '70's) chasm between homosexuality and pedophillia. Badlanders in such an understanding is very interested in the attention of men (not so much "gay" as that is a modern construct). He's interested in men because they are like him and he is his own idol.
Seen in this light all men have a tendancy to be sexually attracted to other men in some degree. Severian notices this, groks it, rejects it, and then accepts his first taste of Father hood. He loves as a man rather than an adolecent (in a moment that reminds me of Marcus Aurelius' reflections on the matter). That is he learns to love another rather than the image of himself, even through loss. Little Severian therfore prepares him to sacrifice for the good and further seperates him from Badlanders.
_______________________________________________
↳ in reply to Gerry Quinn
7 quoted lines · 1–2 deep
From: "Nicholas" <nickjost at yahoo.com>
Wolfe tends to use classical Christian and Greco-Roman perceptions of nature. As such there wouldn't be a great (and very post '70's) chasm between homosexuality and pedophillia. Badlanders in such an understanding is very interested in the attention of men (not so much "gay" as that is a modern construct). He's interested in men because they are like him and he is his own idol.
I don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man.
- Gerry Quinn
_______________________________________________
↳ in reply to Gerry Quinn
7 quoted lines · 1–2 deep
From: "Nicholas" <nickjost at yahoo.com>
Wolfe tends to use classical Christian and Greco-Roman perceptions of nature. As such there wouldn't be a great (and very post '70's) chasm between homosexuality and pedophillia. Badlanders in such an understanding is very interested in the attention of men (not so much "gay" as that is a modern construct). He's interested in men because they are like him and he is his own idol.
I don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man.
- Gerry Quinn
_______________________________________________
↳ follows, by subject match brunians at brunians.org
Here are the suspicious circumstances to me on this issue in BotNS-
1. Conspicuously absent is mention of homosexual activities among the members of the guild.From prisons to Greek armies to British boarding schools, such behavior is rather well-known in such isolated all-male settings but it is not mentioned here.
If this was Lord Of The Flies (1954) leaving such a thing in subtext but unspoken would be understandable. But this story describes some pretty bizarre sexual situations, from grandmotherly incest to sex with alien beings. Why avoid all mention of this thing?
Severian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities before age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc. I wonder about a few mentioned items, such as the fear the apprentices have of the Witches Tower and how Master Gurloes fears he will not be able to perform when ordered to sexually abuse a woman. Severian suggests the beast handler guild is similar to his own, and they each take an animal in marriage. What do the torturers do? I don't get the impression Master Gurloes frequents the House Azure.
2. Severian becomes sure the Old Leech has a pedophilic interest in his 13 year old assistant because of an unsolicited denial of it.
3. Severian gives us an unsolicited denial of sexual play between himself and Little Severian. I always think to myself at that part, "actually, Severian, I never considered the possibility....until you brought it up".
4. Also odd is Severian's conversation with a Pelerine about the lonliness of soldiers and their need for a sense of authority.
Pelerine- "Some, of course, form bonds with others in the ranks. Sometimes several share a single woman or a man who is like a woman. Some make pets of animals, and some befriend children left homeless by the struggle"
Severian- "Remembering Casdoe's son, I said, 'I can see why you object to that'.
Pelerine- "We do not object- most certainly not to that, and not to things vastly less natural".
Severian is known as an unreliable narrator, but on this topic I think he could be especially unreliable.
Ryan Dunn22 Jul 2010, 03:25
↳ in reply to Lee Berman
2 quoted lines
On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:18 PM, Lee Berman wrote:
Severian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities before age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc.
He sure knows surprisingly well how to initiate fellatio from the false Thecla in House Azure. Just sayin'.
...ryan
brunians at brunians.org22 Jul 2010, 03:40
↳ in reply to Lee Berman
It's real easy to suppress the nonconsensual aspects of such behavior if you are willing to beat the kids.
I imagine the queer kids fucked each other, the hetros fucked the witch girls, the special guys like Sev and his buds got a free pass to a seriously classy whorehouse.
You know he didn't just go to the whorehouse once.
.
27 quoted lines
Here are the suspicious circumstances to me on this issue in BotNS-
1. Conspicuously absent is mention of homosexual activities among the members of the guild.From prisons to Greek armies to British boarding schools, such behavior is rather well-known in such isolated all-male settings but it is not mentioned here.
If this was Lord Of The Flies (1954) leaving such a thing in subtext but unspoken would be understandable. But this story describes some pretty bizarre sexual situations, from grandmotherly incest to sex with alien beings. Why avoid all mention of this thing?
Severian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities before age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc. I wonder about a few mentioned items, such as the fear the apprentices have of the Witches Tower and how Master Gurloes fears he will not be able to perform when ordered to sexually abuse a woman. Severian suggests the beast handler guild is similar to his own, and they each take an animal in marriage. What do the torturers do? I don't get the impression Master Gurloes frequents the House Azure.
2. Severian becomes sure the Old Leech has a pedophilic interest in his 13 year old assistant because of an unsolicited denial of it.
3. Severian gives us an unsolicited denial of sexual play between himself and Little Severian. I always think to myself at that part, "actually, Severian, I never considered the possibility....until you brought it up".
4. Also odd is Severian's conversation with a Pelerine about the lonliness of soldiers and their need for a sense of authority.
Pelerine- "Some, of course, form bonds with others in the ranks.
Sometimes
several share a single woman or a man who is like a woman. Some make pets of animals, and some befriend children left homeless by the struggle"
Severian- "Remembering Casdoe's son, I said, 'I can see why you object to that'.
Pelerine- "We do not object- most certainly not to that, and not to things vastly less natural".
Severian is known as an unreliable narrator, but on this topic I think he
could be especially unreliable.
_________________________________________________________________
The New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.
http://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3
_______________________________________________
↳ in reply to Lee Berman
4 quoted lines
From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Here are the suspicious circumstances to me on this issue in BotNS-
1. Conspicuously absent is mention of homosexual activities among the members of the guild.
So true.
6 quoted lines
From prisons to Greek armies to British boarding
schools, such behavior is rather well-known in such isolated all-male settings but it is not mentioned here.
If this was Lord Of The Flies (1954) leaving such a thing in subtext but unspoken would be understandable. But this story describes some pretty bizarre sexual situations, from grandmotherly incest to sex with alien beings. Why avoid all mention of this thing?
Severian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities before age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc.
...
Does he say that, or does he just not mention his sexual thoughts and any activities?
When Roche takes Severian to the House Azure, he warns him not to "strike her or use a grip", because they charge more. Why should it be so likely that a torturer's apprentice would do the same thing in a sexual situation that he does to force the younger boys to obey him? Just askin'.
2 quoted lines
Severian suggests the
beast handler guild is similar to his own, and they each take an animal in marriage. What do the torturers do? I don't get the impression Master Gurloes frequents the House Azure.
I think he might, but the journeymen probably don't go often, and it seems to be unusual for an apprentice to go.
[snipping other interesting points]
Jerry Friedman
brunians at brunians.org22 Jul 2010, 03:40
↳ in reply to Ryan Dunn
One man's fellatio is another man's facefuckery.
.
6 quoted lines · 1–2 deep
On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:18 PM, Lee Berman wrote:
Severian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities before age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc.
He sure knows surprisingly well how to initiate fellatio from the false Thecla in House Azure. Just sayin'.
...ryan
_______________________________________________
↳ in reply to brunians at brunians.org
...is another teenager's lifetime of sexual oppression.
...ryan
10 quoted lines · 1–3 deep
On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:40 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
One man's fellatio is another man's facefuckery.
.
On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:18 PM, Lee Berman wrote:
Severian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities before age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc.
He sure knows surprisingly well how to initiate fellatio from the false Thecla in House Azure. Just sayin'.
...ryan
_______________________________________________
↳ in reply to Lee Berman
5 quoted lines
On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 11:18 PM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>wrote:
Here are the suspicious circumstances to me on this issue in BotNS-
1. Conspicuously absent is mention of homosexual activities among the members of the guild.From prisons to Greek armies to British boarding schools, such behavior is rather well-known in such isolated all-male settings but it is not mentioned here.
How isolated are they?
1 quoted line
If this was Lord Of The Flies (1954) leaving such a thing in subtext but unspoken would be understandable. But this story describes some pretty bizarre sexual situations, from grandmotherly incest to sex with alien beings. Why avoid all mention of this thing?
Well, as you go on to show ably, it is mentioned. Which the grandmotherly incest really isn't, actually.
Sex with a hot alien chick fits as well or better in the "pulp sci-fi tropes" aisle as it does in the paraphelia aisle. I don't think most people think of Kirk as a galactic pervert, although of course formally he is.
1 quoted line
Severian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities before age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc.
Would he? Does he claim this?
2 quoted lines
I wonder
about a few mentioned items, such as the fear the apprentices have of the Witches Tower and how Master Gurloes fears he will not be able to perform when ordered to sexually abuse a woman.
I can think of several reasons for that unrelated to homosexuality.
2 quoted lines
Severian suggests the
beast handler guild is similar to his own, and they each take an animal in marriage.
Unless that's a pun. They're animal husbanders.
10 quoted lines
3. Severian gives us an unsolicited denial of sexual play between himself and Little Severian. I always think to myself at that part, "actually, Severian, I never considered the possibility....until you brought it up".
Well, everything he gives us in unsolicited, isn't it? And it does set up a parallel between him and Baldanders.
4. Also odd is Severian's conversation with a Pelerine about the lonliness of soldiers and their need for a sense of authority.
Pelerine- "Some, of course, form bonds with others in the ranks. Sometimes several share a single woman or a man who is like a woman. Some make pets of animals, and some befriend children left homeless by the struggle"
Severian- "Remembering Casdoe's son, I said, 'I can see why you object to that'.
Pelerine- "We do not object- most certainly not to that, and not to things vastly less natural".
The boy may have had a sexual liason with Severian. He was certainly incinerated. Are the soldiers who take a stray animal as a pet presumed to be engaging in bestiality? That seems to me to be a forced reading.
1 quoted line
Severian is known as an unreliable narrator, but on this topic I think he could be especially unreliable.
The one thing that ought to be said in favor of this theory is that he's running around with Thecla's memories and really her soul--not her hormones, as the homunculus points out, but her will and desire can rise up in Severian. Maybe she's the one who wanted to bang little Sev.
brunians at brunians.org22 Jul 2010, 03:57
↳ in reply to Ryan Dunn
And so it goes, on Urth as on Earth.
The World is a certain way.
.
14 quoted lines · 1–4 deep
...is another teenager's lifetime of sexual oppression.
...ryan
On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:40 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:
One man's fellatio is another man's facefuckery.
.
On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:18 PM, Lee Berman wrote:
Severian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities before age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc.
He sure knows surprisingly well how to initiate fellatio from the false Thecla in House Azure. Just sayin'.
...ryan
_______________________________________________
↳ in reply to Jerry Friedman
I wrote:
...
5 quoted lines
When Roche takes Severian to the House Azure, he warns him not to "strike her or
use a grip", because they charge more. Why should it be so likely that a torturer's apprentice would do the same thing in a sexual situation that he does
to force the younger boys to obey him? Just askin'.
Actually, this is not a good argument, since Severian asks whether people do that and Roche says that "amateurs" (is that how the Guild thinks of non-Guild sadists?) do. I'd say it's still possible to read the passage the way I did, but much less likely.
Jerry Friedman
brunians at brunians.org22 Jul 2010, 05:35
↳ in reply to Jerry Friedman
The members of the guild are not generally sadists.
What gives you the impression that they are?
They are professionals.
Professionals don't by and large do these things for entertainment.
Do corrections officers hold their children prisoner? I imagine some do.
Parents that are not corrections officers do too sometimes.
I am certain that all do not.
The guild training is designed to turn out human beings who are not inherently corrupt in this way.
Palaemon states this explicitly.
.
13 quoted lines · 1–2 deep
I wrote:
...
When Roche takes Severian to the House Azure, he warns him not to "strike her or
use a grip", because they charge more. Why should it be so likely that a torturer's apprentice would do the same thing in a sexual situation that he does
to force the younger boys to obey him? Just askin'.
Actually, this is not a good argument, since Severian asks whether people do that and Roche says that "amateurs" (is that how the Guild thinks of non-Guild sadists?) do. I'd say it's still possible to read the passage the way I did, but much less likely.
Jerry Friedman
_______________________________________________
Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.