{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5671", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5671, "subject": "On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "messages": 15, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-07-21T16:35:19+00:00", "last": "2010-07-22T05:35:56+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<198987.30536.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nicholas", "address": "nickjost at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-21T16:35:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe tends to use classical Christian and Greco-Roman perceptions of nature. As such there wouldn't be a great (and very post '70's) chasm between homosexuality and pedophillia. Badlanders in such an understanding is very interested in the attention of men (not so much \"gay\" as that is a modern construct). He's interested in men because they are like him and he is his own idol.\n\nSeen in this light _all_ men have a tendancy to be sexually attracted to other men in some degree. Severian notices this, groks it, rejects it, and then accepts his first taste of Father hood. He loves as a man rather than an adolecent (in a moment that reminds me of Marcus Aurelius' reflections on the matter). That is he learns to love another rather than the image of himself, even through loss. Little Severian therfore prepares him to sacrifice for the good and further seperates him from Badlanders.\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<05ECD529C6EF43A5B4CAF976669974DE@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-21T17:04:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<198987.30536.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Nicholas\" \nWolfe tends to use classical Christian and Greco-Roman perceptions of \nnature. As such there wouldn't be a great (and very post '70's) chasm \nbetween homosexuality and pedophillia. Badlanders in such an understanding \nis very interested in the attention of men (not so much \"gay\" as that is a \nmodern construct). He's interested in men because they are like him and he \nis his own idol." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as \nhaving any sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that \nsuch a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his \nbed hardly qualifies as a man.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-21T18:31:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<198987.30536.qm@web37906.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Very interesting.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe tends to use classical Christian and Greco-Roman perceptions of\nnature. As such there wouldn't be a great (and very post '70's) chasm\nbetween homosexuality and pedophillia. Badlanders in such an understanding\nis very interested in the attention of men (not so much \"gay\" as that is a\nmodern construct). He's interested in men because they are like him and he\nis his own idol.\n\nSeen in this light _all_ men have a tendancy to be sexually attracted to\nother men in some degree. Severian notices this, groks it, rejects it, and\nthen accepts his first taste of Father hood. He loves as a man rather than\nan adolecent (in a moment that reminds me of Marcus Aurelius' reflections\non the matter). That is he learns to love another rather than the image of\nhimself, even through loss. Little Severian therfore prepares him to\nsacrifice for the good and further seperates him from Badlanders.\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-21T18:31:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<05ECD529C6EF43A5B4CAF976669974DE@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Nicholas\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe tends to use classical Christian and Greco-Roman perceptions of\nnature. As such there wouldn't be a great (and very post '70's) chasm\nbetween homosexuality and pedophillia. Badlanders in such an\nunderstanding\nis very interested in the attention of men (not so much \"gay\" as that is\na\nmodern construct). He's interested in men because they are like him and\nhe\nis his own idol." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as\nhaving any sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that\nsuch a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in\nhis\nbed hardly qualifies as a man.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-21T18:31:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<05ECD529C6EF43A5B4CAF976669974DE@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Nicholas\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wolfe tends to use classical Christian and Greco-Roman perceptions of\nnature. As such there wouldn't be a great (and very post '70's) chasm\nbetween homosexuality and pedophillia. Badlanders in such an\nunderstanding\nis very interested in the attention of men (not so much \"gay\" as that is\na\nmodern construct). He's interested in men because they are like him and\nhe\nis his own idol." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as\nhaving any sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that\nsuch a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in\nhis\nbed hardly qualifies as a man.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-22T03:18:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here are the suspicious circumstances to me on this issue in BotNS-\n \n1. Conspicuously absent is mention of homosexual activities among the\nmembers of the guild.From prisons to Greek armies to British boarding\nschools, such behavior is rather well-known in such isolated all-male\nsettings but it is not mentioned here.\n \nIf this was Lord Of The Flies (1954) leaving such a thing in subtext\nbut unspoken would be understandable. But this story describes some \npretty bizarre sexual situations, from grandmotherly incest to sex \nwith alien beings. Why avoid all mention of this thing?\n\nSeverian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities\nbefore age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc. I wonder\nabout a few mentioned items, such as the fear the apprentices have of\nthe Witches Tower and how Master Gurloes fears he will not be able to \nperform when ordered to sexually abuse a woman. Severian suggests the \nbeast handler guild is similar to his own, and they each take an animal\nin marriage. What do the torturers do? I don't get the impression\nMaster Gurloes frequents the House Azure.\n \n2. Severian becomes sure the Old Leech has a pedophilic interest in his\n13 year old assistant because of an unsolicited denial of it.\n \n3. Severian gives us an unsolicited denial of sexual play between himself\nand Little Severian. I always think to myself at that part, \"actually, \nSeverian, I never considered the possibility....until you brought it up\".\n \n4. Also odd is Severian's conversation with a Pelerine about the lonliness\nof soldiers and their need for a sense of authority.\n \n \nPelerine- \"Some, of course, form bonds with others in the ranks. Sometimes \nseveral share a single woman or a man who is like a woman. Some make pets\nof animals, and some befriend children left homeless by the struggle\"\n \nSeverian- \"Remembering Casdoe's son, I said, 'I can see why you object to \nthat'. \n \nPelerine- \"We do not object- most certainly not to that, and not to things\nvastly less natural\".\n \nSeverian is known as an unreliable narrator, but on this topic I think he\ncould be especially unreliable. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<69DE7B83-9727-4F9C-81B9-0647B6F0F230@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-22T03:25:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:18 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nSeverian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities\nbefore age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He sure knows surprisingly well how to initiate fellatio from the false Thecla in House Azure. Just sayin'.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-22T03:40:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's real easy to suppress the nonconsensual aspects of such behavior if\nyou are willing to beat the kids.\n\nI imagine the queer kids fucked each other, the hetros fucked the witch\ngirls, the special guys like Sev and his buds got a free pass to a\nseriously classy whorehouse.\n\nYou know he didn't just go to the whorehouse once.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here are the suspicious circumstances to me on this issue in BotNS-\n\n1. Conspicuously absent is mention of homosexual activities among the\nmembers of the guild.From prisons to Greek armies to British boarding\nschools, such behavior is rather well-known in such isolated all-male\nsettings but it is not mentioned here.\n\nIf this was Lord Of The Flies (1954) leaving such a thing in subtext\nbut unspoken would be understandable. But this story describes some\npretty bizarre sexual situations, from grandmotherly incest to sex\nwith alien beings. Why avoid all mention of this thing?\n\nSeverian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities\nbefore age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc. I wonder\nabout a few mentioned items, such as the fear the apprentices have of\nthe Witches Tower and how Master Gurloes fears he will not be able to\nperform when ordered to sexually abuse a woman. Severian suggests the\nbeast handler guild is similar to his own, and they each take an animal\nin marriage. What do the torturers do? I don't get the impression\nMaster Gurloes frequents the House Azure.\n\n2. Severian becomes sure the Old Leech has a pedophilic interest in his\n13 year old assistant because of an unsolicited denial of it.\n\n3. Severian gives us an unsolicited denial of sexual play between himself\nand Little Severian. I always think to myself at that part, \"actually,\nSeverian, I never considered the possibility....until you brought it up\".\n\n4. Also odd is Severian's conversation with a Pelerine about the lonliness\nof soldiers and their need for a sense of authority.\n\n\nPelerine- \"Some, of course, form bonds with others in the ranks.\nSometimes\nseveral share a single woman or a man who is like a woman. Some make pets\nof animals, and some befriend children left homeless by the struggle\"\n\nSeverian- \"Remembering Casdoe's son, I said, 'I can see why you object to\nthat'.\n\nPelerine- \"We do not object- most certainly not to that, and not to things\nvastly less natural\".\n\nSeverian is known as an unreliable narrator, but on this topic I think he\ncould be especially unreliable.\n_________________________________________________________________\nThe New Busy is not the old busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your inbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_3\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<577392.68935.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-22T03:40:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nHere are the suspicious circumstances to me on this issue in BotNS-\n\n1. Conspicuously absent is mention of homosexual activities among the\nmembers of the guild." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So true." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From prisons to Greek armies to British boarding\nschools, such behavior is rather well-known in such isolated all-male\nsettings but it is not mentioned here.\n\nIf this was Lord Of The Flies (1954) leaving such a thing in subtext\nbut unspoken would be understandable. But this story describes some \npretty bizarre sexual situations, from grandmotherly incest to sex \nwith alien beings. Why avoid all mention of this thing?\n\nSeverian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities\nbefore age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nDoes he say that, or does he just not mention his sexual thoughts and any \nactivities?\n\nWhen Roche takes Severian to the House Azure, he warns him not to \"strike her or \nuse a grip\", because they charge more. Why should it be so likely that a \ntorturer's apprentice would do the same thing in a sexual situation that he does \nto force the younger boys to obey him? Just askin'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian suggests the \nbeast handler guild is similar to his own, and they each take an animal\nin marriage. What do the torturers do? I don't get the impression\nMaster Gurloes frequents the House Azure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think he might, but the journeymen probably don't go often, and it seems to be \nunusual for an apprentice to go.\n\n[snipping other interesting points]\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-22T03:40:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<69DE7B83-9727-4F9C-81B9-0647B6F0F230@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One man's fellatio is another man's facefuckery.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:18 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities\nbefore age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He sure knows surprisingly well how to initiate fellatio from the false\nThecla in House Azure. Just sayin'.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-22T03:43:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...is another teenager's lifetime of sexual oppression.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:40 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOne man's fellatio is another man's facefuckery.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:18 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities\nbefore age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He sure knows surprisingly well how to initiate fellatio from the false\nThecla in House Azure. Just sayin'.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-22T03:53:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 11:18 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nHere are the suspicious circumstances to me on this issue in BotNS-\n\n1. Conspicuously absent is mention of homosexual activities among the\nmembers of the guild.From prisons to Greek armies to British boarding\nschools, such behavior is rather well-known in such isolated all-male\nsettings but it is not mentioned here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How isolated are they?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If this was Lord Of The Flies (1954) leaving such a thing in subtext\nbut unspoken would be understandable. But this story describes some\npretty bizarre sexual situations, from grandmotherly incest to sex\nwith alien beings. Why avoid all mention of this thing?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, as you go on to show ably, it is mentioned. Which the grandmotherly\nincest\nreally isn't, actually.\n\nSex with a hot alien chick fits as well or better in the \"pulp sci-fi\ntropes\" aisle as it does in the paraphelia aisle. I don't think most\npeople think of Kirk as a galactic pervert, although of course\nformally he is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities\nbefore age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Would he? Does he claim this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wonder\nabout a few mentioned items, such as the fear the apprentices have of\nthe Witches Tower and how Master Gurloes fears he will not be able to\nperform when ordered to sexually abuse a woman." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can think of several reasons for that unrelated to homosexuality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian suggests the\nbeast handler guild is similar to his own, and they each take an animal\nin marriage." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless that's a pun. They're animal husbanders." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. Severian gives us an unsolicited denial of sexual play between himself\nand Little Severian. I always think to myself at that part, \"actually,\nSeverian, I never considered the possibility....until you brought it up\".\n\nWell, everything he gives us in unsolicited, isn't it? And it does set up\na parallel between him and Baldanders." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. Also odd is Severian's conversation with a Pelerine about the lonliness\nof soldiers and their need for a sense of authority.\n\n\nPelerine- \"Some, of course, form bonds with others in the ranks. Sometimes\nseveral share a single woman or a man who is like a woman. Some make pets\nof animals, and some befriend children left homeless by the struggle\"\n\nSeverian- \"Remembering Casdoe's son, I said, 'I can see why you object to\nthat'.\n\nPelerine- \"We do not object- most certainly not to that, and not to things\nvastly less natural\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The boy may have had a sexual liason with Severian. He was certainly\nincinerated. Are the soldiers who take a stray animal as a pet\npresumed to be engaging in bestiality? That seems to me to be a\nforced reading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian is known as an unreliable narrator, but on this topic I think he\ncould be especially unreliable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The one thing that ought to be said in favor of this theory is that he's\nrunning around with Thecla's memories and really her soul--not her\nhormones, as the homunculus points out, but her will and desire can\nrise up in Severian. Maybe she's the one who wanted to bang little\nSev." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-22T03:57:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And so it goes, on Urth as on Earth.\n\nThe World is a certain way.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...is another teenager's lifetime of sexual oppression.\n\n...ryan\n\n\nOn Jul 21, 2010, at 11:40 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One man's fellatio is another man's facefuckery.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:18 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Severian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities\nbefore age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "He sure knows surprisingly well how to initiate fellatio from the false\nThecla in House Azure. Just sayin'.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<116140.24152.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-22T05:07:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<577392.68935.qm@web50707.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wrote:\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Roche takes Severian to the House Azure, he warns him not to \"strike her \nor \n\nuse a grip\", because they charge more. Why should it be so likely that a \ntorturer's apprentice would do the same thing in a sexual situation that he \ndoes \n\nto force the younger boys to obey him? Just askin'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, this is not a good argument, since Severian asks whether people do \nthat and Roche says that \"amateurs\" (is that how the Guild thinks of non-Guild \nsadists?) do. I'd say it's still possible to read the passage the way I did, \nbut much less likely.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<73616ecd23ec948ed7f52929785b9de5.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-22T05:35:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<116140.24152.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The members of the guild are not generally sadists.\n\nWhat gives you the impression that they are?\n\nThey are professionals.\n\nProfessionals don't by and large do these things for entertainment.\n\nDo corrections officers hold their children prisoner? I imagine some do.\n\nParents that are not corrections officers do too sometimes.\n\nI am certain that all do not.\n\nThe guild training is designed to turn out human beings who are not\ninherently corrupt in this way.\n\nPalaemon states this explicitly.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote:\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When Roche takes Severian to the House Azure, he warns him not to\n\"strike her\nor\n\nuse a grip\", because they charge more. Why should it be so likely that\na\ntorturer's apprentice would do the same thing in a sexual situation that\nhe\ndoes\n\nto force the younger boys to obey him? Just askin'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually, this is not a good argument, since Severian asks whether people\ndo\nthat and Roche says that \"amateurs\" (is that how the Guild thinks of\nnon-Guild\nsadists?) do. I'd say it's still possible to read the passage the way I\ndid,\nbut much less likely.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }