Subject: (urth) On Pedophilia and Homosexuality

From: Nicholas <nickjost at yahoo.com>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 16:35:19 +0000

Wolfe tends to use classical Christian and Greco-Roman perceptions of nature. As such there wouldn't be a great (and very post '70's) chasm between homosexuality and pedophillia. Badlanders in such an understanding is very interested in the attention of men (not so much "gay" as that is a modern construct). He's interested in men because they are like him and he is his own idol.

Seen in this light _all_ men have a tendancy to be sexually attracted to other men in some degree. Severian notices this, groks it, rejects it, and then accepts his first taste of Father hood. He loves as a man rather than an adolecent (in a moment that reminds me of Marcus Aurelius' reflections on the matter). That is he learns to love another rather than the image of himself, even through loss. Little Severian therfore prepares him to sacrifice for the good and further seperates him from Badlanders.

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From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 17:04:45 +0000

From: "Nicholas" <nickjost at yahoo.com>

> Wolfe tends to use classical Christian and Greco-Roman perceptions of 
> nature. As such there wouldn't be a great (and very post '70's) chasm 
> between homosexuality and pedophillia. Badlanders in such an understanding 
> is very interested in the attention of men (not so much "gay" as that is a 
> modern construct). He's interested in men because they are like him and he 
> is his own idol.

I don't see where you get this from.  Granted Baldanders is not shown as 
having any sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that 
such a character might (or might not) be gay.  But the modified child in his 
bed hardly qualifies as a man.

- Gerry Quinn

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:31:26 +0000

Very interesting.

.

> Seen in this light _all_ men have a tendancy to be sexually attracted to
> other men in some degree. Severian notices this, groks it, rejects it, and
> then accepts his first taste of Father hood. He loves as a man rather than
> an adolecent (in a moment that reminds me of Marcus Aurelius' reflections
> on the matter). That is he learns to love another rather than the image of
> himself, even through loss. Little Severian therfore prepares him to
> sacrifice for the good and further seperates him from Badlanders.
>
>
>
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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:31:46 +0000

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Wed, 21 Jul 2010 18:31:52 +0000

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From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 03:18:00 +0000

Here are the suspicious circumstances to me on this issue in BotNS-
 
1. Conspicuously absent is mention of homosexual activities among the
members of the guild.From prisons to Greek armies to British boarding
schools, such behavior is rather well-known in such isolated all-male
settings but it is not mentioned here.
 
If this was Lord Of The Flies (1954) leaving such a thing in subtext
but unspoken would be understandable. But this story describes some 
pretty bizarre sexual situations, from grandmotherly incest to sex 
with alien beings. Why avoid all mention of this thing?

Severian would have us believe he had no sexual thoughts or activities
before age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc. I wonder
about a few mentioned items, such as the fear the apprentices have of
the Witches Tower and how Master Gurloes fears he will not be able to 
perform when ordered to sexually abuse a woman. Severian suggests the 
beast handler guild is similar to his own, and they each take an animal
in marriage. What do the torturers do? I don't get the impression
Master Gurloes frequents the House Azure.
 
2. Severian becomes sure the Old Leech has a pedophilic interest in his
13 year old assistant because of an unsolicited denial of it.
 
3. Severian gives us an unsolicited denial of sexual play between himself
and Little Severian. I always think to myself at that part, "actually, 
Severian, I never considered the possibility....until you brought it up".
 
4. Also odd is Severian's conversation with a Pelerine about the lonliness
of soldiers and their need for a sense of authority.

Pelerine- "Some, of course, form bonds with others in the ranks.  Sometimes 
several share a single woman or a man who is like a woman.  Some make pets
of animals, and some befriend children left homeless by the struggle"
 
Severian- "Remembering Casdoe's son, I said, 'I can see why you object to 
that'. 
 
Pelerine- "We do not object- most certainly not to that, and not to things
vastly less natural".
 
Severian is known as an unreliable narrator, but on this topic I think he
could be especially unreliable. 		 	   		  
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From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 03:25:59 +0000

On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:18 PM, Lee Berman wrote:

> before age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc.

He sure knows surprisingly well how to initiate fellatio from the false Thecla in House Azure. Just sayin'.

...ryan

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 03:40:18 +0000

It's real easy to suppress the nonconsensual aspects of such behavior if
you are willing to beat the kids.

I imagine the queer kids fucked each other, the hetros fucked the witch
girls, the special guys like Sev and his buds got a free pass to a
seriously classy whorehouse.

You know he didn't just go to the whorehouse once.

.

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 03:40:57 +0000

> members of the guild.

So true.

> From prisons to Greek armies to British boarding
...

Does he say that, or does he just not mention his sexual thoughts and any 
activities?

When Roche takes Severian to the House Azure, he warns him not to "strike her or 
use a grip", because they charge more.  Why should it be so likely that a 
torturer's apprentice would do the same thing in a sexual situation that he does 
to force the younger boys to obey him?  Just askin'.

> Severian suggests the 

I think he might, but the journeymen probably don't go often, and it seems to be 
unusual for an apprentice to go.

[snipping other interesting points]

Jerry Friedman

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 03:40:59 +0000

One man's fellatio is another man's facefuckery.

.

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From: Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 03:43:37 +0000

...is another teenager's lifetime of sexual oppression.

...ryan

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From: John Watkins <john.watkins04 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 03:53:55 +0000

> settings but it is not mentioned here.
How isolated are they?

> with alien beings. Why avoid all mention of this thing?

Well, as you go on to show ably, it is mentioned.  Which the grandmotherly
incest
really isn't, actually.

Sex with a hot alien chick fits as well or better in the "pulp sci-fi
tropes" aisle as it  does in the paraphelia aisle.  I don't think most
people think of Kirk as a galactic pervert,   although of course
formally he is.

> before age 20 and his meeting of Thecla, the House Azure, etc.

Would he?  Does he claim this?

> I wonder
> perform when ordered to sexually abuse a woman.

I can think of several reasons for that unrelated to homosexuality.

> in marriage.

Unless that's a pun.  They're animal husbanders.

> Well, everything he gives us in unsolicited, isn't it?  And it does set up
a parallel between him and Baldanders.

> Pelerine- "We do not object- most certainly not to that, and not to things

The boy may have had a sexual liason with Severian.  He was certainly
incinerated.  Are the soldiers who take a stray animal as a pet
presumed to be engaging in bestiality?  That seems to me to be a
forced reading.

> could be especially unreliable.

The one thing that ought to be said in favor of this theory is that he's
running around with Thecla's memories and really her soul--not her
hormones, as the homunculus points out, but her will and desire can
rise up in Severian. Maybe she's the one who wanted to bang little
Sev.
 ________________________________________________________________

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 03:57:46 +0000

And so it goes, on Urth as on Earth.

The World is a certain way.

.

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From: Jerry Friedman <jerry_friedman at yahoo.com>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 05:07:57 +0000

I wrote:

...

> to force the younger boys to obey him?  Just askin'.

Actually, this is not a good argument, since Severian asks whether people do 
that and Roche says that "amateurs" (is that how the Guild thinks of non-Guild 
sadists?) do.  I'd say it's still possible to read the passage the way I did, 
but much less likely.

Jerry Friedman

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From: brunians at brunians.org <brunians at brunians.org>
Date: Thu, 22 Jul 2010 05:35:56 +0000

The members of the guild are not generally sadists.

What gives you the impression that they are?

They are professionals.

Professionals don't by and large do these things for entertainment.

Do corrections officers hold their children prisoner? I imagine some do.

Parents that are not corrections officers do too sometimes.

I am certain that all do not.

The guild training is designed to turn out human beings who are not
inherently corrupt in this way.

Palaemon states this explicitly.

.

> I wrote:
>
> ...
>
>> When Roche takes Severian to the House Azure, he warns him not to
>> "strike her
>>or
>>
>> torturer's apprentice would do the same thing in a sexual situation that
>> he
>>does
>>