On Pedophillia and Homosexuality

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Nicholas <nickjost at yahoo.com> wrote: " don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man." You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't. The first is that sexual preference is fixed. As I pointed out this is a new (and I think very wrong) idea. Two, that the boys essential nature isn't human and male. What is he, a female mouse? A Greek wouldn't understand the fine difference you're driving at to protect modern sensibilities (sensibilities trained by a halting assumption of Christian ethics). What difference does it make when I sleep with a slave that is three or thirty?

Matthew Weber wrote: On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Nicholas <nickjost at yahoo.com <mailto:nickjost at yahoo.com>> wrote: " don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man." You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't. The first is that sexual preference is fixed. As I pointed out this is a new (and I think very wrong) idea. Two, that the boys essential nature isn't human and male. What is he, a female mouse? A Greek wouldn't understand the fine difference you're driving at to protect modern sensibilities (sensibilities trained by a halting assumption of Christian ethics). What difference does it make when I sleep with a slave that is three or thirty? I wouldn't even say a halting assumption of Christian ethics; it's the influence of the late 19th-century construction of the innocence of childhood (of course, only middle- and upper-class children were innocent, as a perusal of the literature on Victorian child prostitution will show). Nicholas' comments about sexual orientation are spot-on--see Foucault's History of Sexuality for some very illuminating thinking on this subject. -- Matt + A grudging and infrequent worshipper of the gods. Horace [Quintus Horatius Flaccus] (65-8 B.C.), Odes, bk. I [23 B.C.], ode xxxiv, l. 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________

I agree. Although I am skeptical that the "boy" is a catamite. Severian thinks so, but he can be wrong. Matthew Weber wrote:

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Nicholas <nickjost at yahoo.com <mailto:nickjost at yahoo.com>> wrote: " don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man." You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't. The first is that sexual preference is fixed. As I pointed out this is a new (and I think very wrong) idea. Two, that the boys essential nature isn't human and male. What is he, a female mouse? A Greek wouldn't understand the fine difference you're driving at to protect modern sensibilities (sensibilities trained by a halting assumption of Christian ethics). What difference does it make when I sleep with a slave that is three or thirty? I wouldn't even say a halting assumption of Christian ethics; it's the influence of the late 19th-century construction of the innocence of childhood (of course, only middle- and upper-class children were innocent, as a perusal of the literature on Victorian child prostitution will show). Nicholas' comments about sexual orientation are spot-on--see Foucault's History of Sexuality for some very illuminating thinking on this subject. -- Matt + A grudging and infrequent worshipper of the gods. Horace [Quintus Horatius Flaccus] (65-8 B.C.), Odes, bk. I [23 B.C.], ode xxxiv, l. 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________

brunians at brunians.org wrote: Severian is an excellent judge of human nastiness. Every good corrections officer is. .

I agree. Although I am skeptical that the "boy" is a catamite. Severian thinks so, but he can be wrong. Matthew Weber wrote:

On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Nicholas <nickjost at yahoo.com <mailto:nickjost at yahoo.com>> wrote: " don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man." You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't. The first is that sexual preference is fixed. As I pointed out this is a new (and I think very wrong) idea. Two, that the boys essential nature isn't human and male. What is he, a female mouse? A Greek wouldn't understand the fine difference you're driving at to protect modern sensibilities (sensibilities trained by a halting assumption of Christian ethics). What difference does it make when I sleep with a slave that is three or thirty? I wouldn't even say a halting assumption of Christian ethics; it's the influence of the late 19th-century construction of the innocence of childhood (of course, only middle- and upper-class children were innocent, as a perusal of the literature on Victorian child prostitution will show). Nicholas' comments about sexual orientation are spot-on--see Foucault's History of Sexuality for some very illuminating thinking on this subject. -- Matt + A grudging and infrequent worshipper of the gods. Horace [Quintus Horatius Flaccus] (65-8 B.C.), Odes, bk. I [23 B.C.], ode xxxiv, l. 1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ _______________________________________________

From: Nicholas <nickjost at yahoo.com> " don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in >women,

and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man."

You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't.

The first is that sexual preference is fixed. As I pointed out this is a new (and I think very wrong) idea.

Two, that the boys essential nature isn't human and male. What is he, a female mouse? A Greek wouldn't understand the fine difference you're driving at to protect modern sensibilities (sensibilities trained by a halting assumption of Christian ethics).

What difference does it make when I sleep with a slave that is three or thirty?

From: Nicholas <nickjost at yahoo.com>

" don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in >women,

Specifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta.

and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man."

You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't.

You did say specifically that Baldanders liked the attentions of "men", not "men and boys". And where should I have noticed that's what he liked? Also, you said that Severian noticed and grokked that men are attracted to other males. Where did I miss that? I remember he mentions some men who are impotent save with men like themselves.

The first is that sexual preference is fixed. As I pointed out this is a new (and I think very wrong) idea.

Whether it's right or wrong, isn't it in the Symposium? Some of the two-backed beasts are male-female, some female-female, and some male-male? And Severian seems to believe that at least some people's sexual preference is fixed.

Two, that the boys essential nature isn't human and male. What is he, a female mouse? A Greek wouldn't understand the fine difference you're driving at to protect modern sensibilities (sensibilities trained by a halting assumption of Christian ethics).

Sure a Greek would understand it. There's a reason for the word paiderastes (if I got that right), boy-lover, not man-lover. And Severian says he doesn't believe Baldanders practiced pederasty with the overgrown boy. As far as I can tell, you're assuming that people are sexually attracted to other people's essential nature, whatever that is. I think age and other superficial features have a lot to do with it. If A is attracted to B when B is thirty, it doesn't follow that A is attracted to B when B is three (or ninety). Most people find secondary sexual characteristics attractive. (Of course, Severian may have meant that Baldanders might have been waiting till the boy developed those characteristics. It's easier to believe B could be attractive at both thirteen and thirty.)

What difference does it make when I sleep with a slave that is three or thirty?

... They're both rape, and I believe they're both evil, but I imagine it makes a difference to the victim. And as I said above, it probably makes a difference to the slaveowner, too. I think you're right to call attention to the differences between ancient and modern beliefs, and to the possibility that the latest belief might not be the ultimate truth, and to the possibility that Wolfe didn't believe the latest belief of the time when he wrote BotNS, but I think you're taking things too far. Jerry Friedman _______________________________________________

On 7/21/2010 10:01 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote: From: Nicholas <nickjost at yahoo.com> ** " don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in >women, Specifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta.

and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man." You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't.

You did say specifically that Baldanders liked the attentions of "men", not "men and boys". And where should I have noticed that's what he liked? Also, you said that Severian noticed and grokked that men are attracted to other males. Where did I miss that? I remember he mentions some men who are impotent save with men like themselves.

On 7/21/2010 10:01 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

From: Nicholas <nickjost at yahoo.com> ** " don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in >women, Specifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta.

Baldanders likely assisted Dr Talos with her makeover, and so would have a lot of associations with her that others would not. Also, Baldanders is really old and despite his prolonged adolescent growth, he doesn't seem to have the teenage horniness one might expect, so he could be "done" or just have a low sex drive.

and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man." You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't.

You did say specifically that Baldanders liked the attentions of "men", not "men and boys". And where should I have noticed that's what he liked? Also, you said that Severian noticed and grokked that men are attracted to other males. Where did I miss that? I remember he mentions some men who are impotent save with men like themselves.

At first I read this as "impatient", and perhaps he is indeed the sort of sexist pig who doesn't have time for women, despite being otherwise enlightened about the human condition. A similar attitude was prevalent at King's College among the mostly male DNA reasearchers at the expense of Rosalind Franklin. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

On Jul 21, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: On 7/21/2010 10:01 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

From: Nicholas <nickjost at yahoo.com> ** " don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in >women, Specifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta.

Baldanders likely assisted Dr Talos with her makeover, and so would have a lot of associations with her that others would not. Also, Baldanders is really old and despite his prolonged adolescent growth, he doesn't seem to have the teenage horniness one might expect, so he could be "done" or just have a low sex drive.

On Jul 21, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

On 7/21/2010 10:01 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

From: Nicholas <nickjost at yahoo.com> ** " don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in >women, Specifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta.

Baldanders likely assisted Dr Talos with her makeover, and so would have a lot of associations with her that others would not. Also, Baldanders is really old and despite his prolonged adolescent growth, he doesn't seem to have the teenage horniness one might expect, so he could be "done" or just have a low sex drive.

I figured that Baldanders had long ago learned to channel his energies into studies that would increase his longevity and power. Or, to quote the punchline of an old but good joke: "I'm an engineer. I don't have time for a girlfriend, but a talking frog is pretty cool." Adam _______________________________________________

On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:09 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: Otto Skorzeny was an engineer.

On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:09 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Otto Skorzeny was an engineer.

So was Isambard Kingdom Brunel. As was Robert E. Lee. Adam _______________________________________________

As was George Henry Thomas. Graduates from West Point and Annapolis and presumably Colorado Springs take engineering degrees. I find I am not sure if they all do. Perhaps some do not. Anyway, engineers tend to look at the World a certain way. We've been made into geeks for a number of reasons, most of them unclean. Of course, you know, someone who does software and nothing but software cannot be considered an actual engineer. Engineers make things. One way or another. .

On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:09 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:

Otto Skorzeny was an engineer.

So was Isambard Kingdom Brunel. As was Robert E. Lee. Adam _______________________________________________

On 7/21/2010 11:02 PM, Adam Thornton wrote: On Jul 21, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

On 7/21/2010 10:01 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

From: Nicholas<nickjost at yahoo.com> ** " don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in>women, Specifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta.

Baldanders likely assisted Dr Talos with her makeover, and so would have a lot of associations with her that others would not. Also, Baldanders is really old and despite his prolonged adolescent growth, he doesn't seem to have the teenage horniness one might expect, so he could be "done" or just have a low sex drive.

I figured that Baldanders had long ago learned to channel his energies into studies that would increase his longevity and power. Or, to quote the punchline of an old but good joke: "I'm an engineer. I don't have time for a girlfriend, but a talking frog is pretty cool."

On 7/21/2010 11:02 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:

On Jul 21, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:

On 7/21/2010 10:01 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:

From: Nicholas<nickjost at yahoo.com> ** " don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in>women, Specifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta.

Baldanders likely assisted Dr Talos with her makeover, and so would have a lot of associations with her that others would not. Also, Baldanders is really old and despite his prolonged adolescent growth, he doesn't seem to have the teenage horniness one might expect, so he could be "done" or just have a low sex drive.

I figured that Baldanders had long ago learned to channel his energies into studies that would increase his longevity and power. Or, to quote the punchline of an old but good joke: "I'm an engineer. I don't have time for a girlfriend, but a talking frog is pretty cool."

For such a focussed scientist, he seems to be spending a lot of his personal time putting on plays. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > _______________________________________________

don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man."

You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't. The first is that sexual preference is fixed. As I pointed out this is a new (and I think very wrong) idea.

Two, that the boys essential nature isn't human and male. What is he, a female mouse? A Greek wouldn't understand the fine difference you're driving at to protect modern sensibilities (sensibilities trained by a halting assumption of Christian ethics). What difference does it make when I sleep with a slave that is three or thirty?