{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5672", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5672, "subject": "On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "messages": 17, "voices": 8, "first": "2010-07-21T20:05:28+00:00", "last": "2010-07-22T07:40:17+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<620951.93527.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nicholas", "address": "nickjost at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-21T20:05:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\" don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man.\"\n\nYou make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't. The first is that sexual preference is fixed. As I pointed out this is a new (and I think very wrong) idea. Two, that the boys essential nature isn't human and male. What is he, a female mouse? A Greek wouldn't understand the fine difference you're driving at to protect modern sensibilities (sensibilities trained by a halting assumption of Christian ethics). What difference does it make when I sleep with a slave that is three or thirty?\n\nSeen from a Christian perspective Badlanders is an idolaterer of the worst and primal sort. This might explain his strange flirtations with Severian, he's the only man that can be seen as a rough equal. They are almost foils of each other.\n\nSent from my iPhone\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Matthew Weber", "address": "palaeologos at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-21T20:12:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<620951.93527.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Nicholas wrote:\n\" don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having\nany sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that such a\ncharacter might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed\nhardly qualifies as a man.\"\n\nYou make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't. The first is\nthat sexual preference is fixed. As I pointed out this is a new (and I think\nvery wrong) idea. Two, that the boys essential nature isn't human and male.\n What is he, a female mouse? A Greek wouldn't understand the fine difference\nyou're driving at to protect modern sensibilities (sensibilities trained by\na halting assumption of Christian ethics). What difference does it make when\nI sleep with a slave that is three or thirty?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wouldn't even say a halting assumption of Christian ethics; it's the\ninfluence of the late 19th-century construction of the innocence of\nchildhood (of course, only middle- and upper-class children were innocent,\nas a perusal of the literature on Victorian child prostitution\nwill show).\n\nNicholas' comments about sexual orientation are spot-on--see Foucault's\nHistory of Sexuality for some very illuminating thinking on this subject." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Matt +\n\nA grudging and infrequent worshipper of the gods.\n Horace [Quintus Horatius Flaccus] (65-8 B.C.), Odes, bk. I [23 B.C.],\node xxxiv, l. 1" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C479451.8030902@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-22T00:44:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Although I am skeptical that the \"boy\" is a catamite. Severian \nthinks so, but he can be wrong." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Matthew Weber wrote:\n\n\nOn Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Nicholas > wrote:\n\n \" don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not\n shown as having any sexual interest in women, and by default one\n might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay.\n But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man.\"\n\n You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't. The\n first is that sexual preference is fixed. As I pointed out this is\n a new (and I think very wrong) idea. Two, that the boys essential\n nature isn't human and male. What is he, a female mouse? A Greek\n wouldn't understand the fine difference you're driving at to\n protect modern sensibilities (sensibilities trained by a halting\n assumption of Christian ethics). What difference does it make when\n I sleep with a slave that is three or thirty?\n\n\nI wouldn't even say a halting assumption of Christian ethics; it's the \ninfluence of the late 19th-century construction of the innocence of \nchildhood (of course, only middle- and upper-class children were \ninnocent, as a perusal of the literature on Victorian child prostitution\nwill show). \n\nNicholas' comments about sexual orientation are spot-on--see \nFoucault's History of Sexuality for some very illuminating thinking on \nthis subject.\n-- \nMatt +\n\nA grudging and infrequent worshipper of the gods.\n Horace [Quintus Horatius Flaccus] (65-8 B.C.), Odes, bk. I [23 \nB.C.], ode xxxiv, l. 1\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-22T00:48:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<4C479451.8030902@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian is an excellent judge of human nastiness.\n\nEvery good corrections officer is.\n\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. Although I am skeptical that the \"boy\" is a catamite. Severian\nthinks so, but he can be wrong.\n\nMatthew Weber wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Nicholas > wrote:\n\n \" don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not\n shown as having any sexual interest in women, and by default one\n might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay.\n But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man.\"\n\n You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't. The\n first is that sexual preference is fixed. As I pointed out this is\n a new (and I think very wrong) idea. Two, that the boys essential\n nature isn't human and male. What is he, a female mouse? A Greek\n wouldn't understand the fine difference you're driving at to\n protect modern sensibilities (sensibilities trained by a halting\n assumption of Christian ethics). What difference does it make when\n I sleep with a slave that is three or thirty?\n\n\nI wouldn't even say a halting assumption of Christian ethics; it's the\ninfluence of the late 19th-century construction of the innocence of\nchildhood (of course, only middle- and upper-class children were\ninnocent, as a perusal of the literature on Victorian child prostitution\nwill show).\n\nNicholas' comments about sexual orientation are spot-on--see\nFoucault's History of Sexuality for some very illuminating thinking on\nthis subject.\n--\nMatt +\n\nA grudging and infrequent worshipper of the gods.\n Horace [Quintus Horatius Flaccus] (65-8 B.C.), Odes, bk. I [23\nB.C.], ode xxxiv, l. 1\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C47B3A9.6070802@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-22T02:57:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nSeverian is an excellent judge of human nastiness.\n\nEvery good corrections officer is.\n\n\n.\n\n\n\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree. Although I am skeptical that the \"boy\" is a catamite. Severian\nthinks so, but he can be wrong.\n\nMatthew Weber wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Wed, Jul 21, 2010 at 1:05 PM, Nicholas > wrote:\n\n \" don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not\n shown as having any sexual interest in women, and by default one\n might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay.\n But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man.\"\n\n You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't. The\n first is that sexual preference is fixed. As I pointed out this is\n a new (and I think very wrong) idea. Two, that the boys essential\n nature isn't human and male. What is he, a female mouse? A Greek\n wouldn't understand the fine difference you're driving at to\n protect modern sensibilities (sensibilities trained by a halting\n assumption of Christian ethics). What difference does it make when\n I sleep with a slave that is three or thirty?\n\n\nI wouldn't even say a halting assumption of Christian ethics; it's the\ninfluence of the late 19th-century construction of the innocence of\nchildhood (of course, only middle- and upper-class children were\ninnocent, as a perusal of the literature on Victorian child prostitution\nwill show).\n\nNicholas' comments about sexual orientation are spot-on--see\nFoucault's History of Sexuality for some very illuminating thinking on\nthis subject.\n--\nMatt +\n\nA grudging and infrequent worshipper of the gods.\n Horace [Quintus Horatius Flaccus] (65-8 B.C.), Odes, bk. I [23\nB.C.], ode xxxiv, l. 1\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<386718.25522.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-22T03:01:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<620951.93527.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Nicholas \n\" don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having \nany sexual interest in >women," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Specifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be \ngay. But the\nmodified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You did say specifically that Baldanders liked the attentions of \"men\", not \"men \nand boys\". And where should I have noticed that's what he liked? Also, you \nsaid that Severian noticed and grokked that men are attracted to other males. \nWhere did I miss that? I remember he mentions some men who are impotent save \nwith men like themselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The first is that sexual preference is fixed. As\nI pointed out this is a new (and I think very wrong) idea." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whether it's right or wrong, isn't it in the Symposium? Some of the two-backed \nbeasts are male-female, some female-female, and some male-male? And Severian \nseems to believe that at least some people's sexual preference is fixed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Two, that the boys essential nature isn't human and male. What is he, a \nfemale mouse? A Greek\nwouldn't understand the fine difference you're driving at to protect modern \nsensibilities\n(sensibilities trained by a halting assumption of Christian ethics)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure a Greek would understand it. There's a reason for the word paiderastes (if \nI got that right), boy-lover, not man-lover. And Severian says he doesn't \nbelieve Baldanders practiced pederasty with the overgrown boy. As far as I can \ntell, you're assuming that people are sexually attracted to other people's \nessential nature, whatever that is. I think age and other superficial features \nhave a lot to do with it. If A is attracted to B when B is thirty, it doesn't \nfollow that A is attracted to B when B is three (or ninety). Most people find \nsecondary sexual characteristics attractive. (Of course, Severian may have \nmeant that Baldanders might have been waiting till the boy developed those \ncharacteristics. It's easier to believe B could be attractive at both thirteen \nand thirty.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What difference does it make when I sleep with a slave that is three or \nthirty?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "...\n\nThey're both rape, and I believe they're both evil, but I imagine it makes a \ndifference to the victim. And as I said above, it probably makes a difference \nto the slaveowner, too.\n\nI think you're right to call attention to the differences between ancient and \nmodern beliefs, and to the possibility that the latest belief might not be the \nultimate truth, and to the possibility that Wolfe didn't believe the latest \nbelief of the time when he wrote BotNS, but I think you're taking things too \nfar.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<29d33502f22842d3289d33ccce9ca7f4.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-22T03:08:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<386718.25522.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whatevar.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Nicholas " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\" don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as\nhaving\nany sexual interest in >women," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Specifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might\nnot) be\ngay. But the\nmodified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You did say specifically that Baldanders liked the attentions of \"men\",\nnot \"men\nand boys\". And where should I have noticed that's what he liked? Also,\nyou\nsaid that Severian noticed and grokked that men are attracted to other\nmales.\nWhere did I miss that? I remember he mentions some men who are impotent\nsave\nwith men like themselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The first is that sexual preference is fixed. As\nI pointed out this is a new (and I think very wrong) idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whether it's right or wrong, isn't it in the Symposium? Some of the\ntwo-backed\nbeasts are male-female, some female-female, and some male-male? And\nSeverian\nseems to believe that at least some people's sexual preference is fixed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Two, that the boys essential nature isn't human and male. What is he,\na\nfemale mouse? A Greek\nwouldn't understand the fine difference you're driving at to protect\nmodern\nsensibilities\n(sensibilities trained by a halting assumption of Christian ethics)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure a Greek would understand it. There's a reason for the word\npaiderastes (if\nI got that right), boy-lover, not man-lover. And Severian says he doesn't\nbelieve Baldanders practiced pederasty with the overgrown boy. As far as\nI can\ntell, you're assuming that people are sexually attracted to other people's\nessential nature, whatever that is. I think age and other superficial\nfeatures\nhave a lot to do with it. If A is attracted to B when B is thirty, it\ndoesn't\nfollow that A is attracted to B when B is three (or ninety). Most people\nfind\nsecondary sexual characteristics attractive. (Of course, Severian may\nhave\nmeant that Baldanders might have been waiting till the boy developed those\ncharacteristics. It's easier to believe B could be attractive at both\nthirteen\nand thirty.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What difference does it make when I sleep with a slave that is three or\nthirty?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...\n\nThey're both rape, and I believe they're both evil, but I imagine it makes\na\ndifference to the victim. And as I said above, it probably makes a\ndifference\nto the slaveowner, too.\n\nI think you're right to call attention to the differences between ancient\nand\nmodern beliefs, and to the possibility that the latest belief might not be\nthe\nultimate truth, and to the possibility that Wolfe didn't believe the\nlatest\nbelief of the time when he wrote BotNS, but I think you're taking things\ntoo\nfar.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C47BF1E.1040005@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-22T03:46:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<386718.25522.qm@web50706.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/21/2010 10:01 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\n*From:* Nicholas \n**\n\" don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as\nhaving any sexual interest in >women,\n\nSpecifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Baldanders likely assisted Dr Talos with her makeover, and so would have \na lot of associations with her that others would not. Also, Baldanders \nis really old and despite his prolonged adolescent growth, he doesn't \nseem to have the teenage horniness one might expect, so he could be \n\"done\" or just have a low sex drive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might\nnot) be gay. But the\nmodified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man.\"\n\nYou make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You did say specifically that Baldanders liked the attentions of \"men\",\nnot \"men and boys\". And where should I have noticed that's what he\nliked? Also, you said that Severian noticed and grokked that men are\nattracted to other males. Where did I miss that? I remember he mentions\nsome men who are impotent save with men like themselves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At first I read this as \"impatient\", and perhaps he is indeed the sort \nof sexist pig who doesn't have time for women, despite being otherwise \nenlightened about the human condition. A similar attitude was prevalent \nat King's College among the mostly male DNA reasearchers at the expense \nof Rosalind Franklin." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<685a55eef7573ef3bb996ce077002d6a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-22T03:58:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<4C47BF1E.1040005@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's got a buttboy, Wilson.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/21/2010 10:01 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Nicholas \n**\n\" don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as\nhaving any sexual interest in >women,\n\nSpecifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Baldanders likely assisted Dr Talos with her makeover, and so would have\na lot of associations with her that others would not. Also, Baldanders\nis really old and despite his prolonged adolescent growth, he doesn't\nseem to have the teenage horniness one might expect, so he could be\n\"done\" or just have a low sex drive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": " and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might\nnot) be gay. But the\nmodified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man.\"\n\nYou make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You did say specifically that Baldanders liked the attentions of \"men\",\nnot \"men and boys\". And where should I have noticed that's what he\nliked? Also, you said that Severian noticed and grokked that men are\nattracted to other males. Where did I miss that? I remember he mentions\nsome men who are impotent save with men like themselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At first I read this as \"impatient\", and perhaps he is indeed the sort\nof sexist pig who doesn't have time for women, despite being otherwise\nenlightened about the human condition. A similar attitude was prevalent\nat King's College among the mostly male DNA reasearchers at the expense\nof Rosalind Franklin.\n\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8411DD96-AC7B-4721-BB10-89747F6E7E4B@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-22T04:02:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<4C47BF1E.1040005@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 21, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/21/2010 10:01 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "*From:* Nicholas \n**\n\" don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as\nhaving any sexual interest in >women,\n\nSpecifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Baldanders likely assisted Dr Talos with her makeover, and so would have a lot of associations with her that others would not. Also, Baldanders is really old and despite his prolonged adolescent growth, he doesn't seem to have the teenage horniness one might expect, so he could be \"done\" or just have a low sex drive." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I figured that Baldanders had long ago learned to channel his energies into studies that would increase his longevity and power. Or, to quote the punchline of an old but good joke:\n\n\"I'm an engineer. I don't have time for a girlfriend, but a talking frog is pretty cool.\"\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7b3a45cc6374e4e0b7c95c61b305e43a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-22T04:09:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<8411DD96-AC7B-4721-BB10-89747F6E7E4B@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Otto Skorzeny was an engineer.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 21, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/21/2010 10:01 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* Nicholas \n**\n\" don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown\nas\nhaving any sexual interest in >women,\n\nSpecifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Baldanders likely assisted Dr Talos with her makeover, and so would have\na lot of associations with her that others would not. Also, Baldanders\nis really old and despite his prolonged adolescent growth, he doesn't\nseem to have the teenage horniness one might expect, so he could be\n\"done\" or just have a low sex drive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I figured that Baldanders had long ago learned to channel his energies\ninto studies that would increase his longevity and power. Or, to quote\nthe punchline of an old but good joke:\n\n\"I'm an engineer. I don't have time for a girlfriend, but a talking frog\nis pretty cool.\"\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1EEF05A4-3861-4895-B47C-08CBBC999969@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-22T04:12:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<7b3a45cc6374e4e0b7c95c61b305e43a.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:09 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nOtto Skorzeny was an engineer." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So was Isambard Kingdom Brunel. As was Robert E. Lee.\n\nAdam " } ] }, { "message_id": "<85eb69e86ef568693409d9f7795536e7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-22T04:45:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<1EEF05A4-3861-4895-B47C-08CBBC999969@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As was George Henry Thomas.\n\nGraduates from West Point and Annapolis and presumably Colorado Springs\ntake engineering degrees.\n\nI find I am not sure if they all do. Perhaps some do not.\n\nAnyway, engineers tend to look at the World a certain way.\n\nWe've been made into geeks for a number of reasons, most of them unclean.\n\nOf course, you know, someone who does software and nothing but software\ncannot be considered an actual engineer.\n\nEngineers make things.\n\nOne way or another.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:09 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Otto Skorzeny was an engineer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So was Isambard Kingdom Brunel. As was Robert E. Lee.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-22T04:50:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<85eb69e86ef568693409d9f7795536e7.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe's an engineer, Wilson's an engineer.\n\nI'm an engineer among other things.\n\nWho else here?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As was George Henry Thomas.\n\nGraduates from West Point and Annapolis and presumably Colorado Springs\ntake engineering degrees.\n\nI find I am not sure if they all do. Perhaps some do not.\n\nAnyway, engineers tend to look at the World a certain way.\n\nWe've been made into geeks for a number of reasons, most of them unclean.\n\nOf course, you know, someone who does software and nothing but software\ncannot be considered an actual engineer.\n\nEngineers make things.\n\nOne way or another.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 21, 2010, at 11:09 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Otto Skorzeny was an engineer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So was Isambard Kingdom Brunel. As was Robert E. Lee.\n\nAdam\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C47D4FE.3040509@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-22T05:19:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<8411DD96-AC7B-4721-BB10-89747F6E7E4B@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/21/2010 11:02 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:\n\nOn Jul 21, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/21/2010 10:01 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "*From:* Nicholas\n**\n\" don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as\nhaving any sexual interest in>women,\n\nSpecifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Baldanders likely assisted Dr Talos with her makeover, and so would have a lot of associations with her that others would not. Also, Baldanders is really old and despite his prolonged adolescent growth, he doesn't seem to have the teenage horniness one might expect, so he could be \"done\" or just have a low sex drive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I figured that Baldanders had long ago learned to channel his energies into studies that would increase his longevity and power. Or, to quote the punchline of an old but good joke:\n\n\"I'm an engineer. I don't have time for a girlfriend, but a talking frog is pretty cool.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For such a focussed scientist, he seems to be spending a lot of his \npersonal time putting on plays." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2502822b4057b3166ae2d3f2ef0a25bd.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-22T05:38:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<4C47D4FE.3040509@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that's Talos, Wilson.\n\nNo matter, Talos is a manifestation of Baldander's will as much as the big\nguy himself.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/21/2010 11:02 PM, Adam Thornton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 21, 2010, at 10:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/21/2010 10:01 PM, Jerry Friedman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "*From:* Nicholas\n**\n\" don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown\nas\nhaving any sexual interest in>women,\n\nSpecifically, not in the endlessly desirable Jolenta." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Baldanders likely assisted Dr Talos with her makeover, and so would\nhave a lot of associations with her that others would not. Also,\nBaldanders is really old and despite his prolonged adolescent growth,\nhe doesn't seem to have the teenage horniness one might expect, so he\ncould be \"done\" or just have a low sex drive." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I figured that Baldanders had long ago learned to channel his energies\ninto studies that would increase his longevity and power. Or, to quote\nthe punchline of an old but good joke:\n\n\"I'm an engineer. I don't have time for a girlfriend, but a talking\nfrog is pretty cool.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For such a focussed scientist, he seems to be spending a lot of his\npersonal time putting on plays.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<343AED60B03D48689EE28EE5E4242EEE@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-22T07:40:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) On Pedophillia and Homosexuality", "in_reply_to": "<620951.93527.qm@web37908.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Nicholas " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "don't see where you get this from. Granted Baldanders is not shown as having any sexual interest in women, and by default one might assume that such a character might (or might not) be gay. But the modified child in his bed hardly qualifies as a man.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You make two bad assumptions that the classic world didn't. The first is that sexual preference is fixed. As I pointed out this is a new (and I think very wrong) idea. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I make no such assumption. Perhaps outside the short time we know him, Baldanders is a connoissueur of sheep, or perhaps he eventually transforms himself into a tribade. However, at the time we meet him, all we see is that he seems to have little interest in women. If we assume that, as with most people, he has at least *some* sexual interests, then we will consider it at least more likely than average that he will turn out to have an interest in men. This is all beside the point anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Two, that the boys essential nature isn't human and male. What is he, a female mouse? A Greek wouldn't understand the fine difference you're driving at to protect modern sensibilities (sensibilities trained by a halting assumption of Christian ethics). What difference does it make when I sleep with a slave that is three or thirty?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You said yourself: \" He's interested in men because they are like him and he is his own idol.\" Baldanders is a mature man; a three year old boy is not much like him. And a child may be human and male, without thereby being a man.\n\nThe Greeks would in my opinion have made this distinction also, even if they tolerated adult males having sex with adolescent boys. (I reserve judgement on how much this alleged tolerance has to do with historical fact, and how much with the predilections of certain classical scholars looking wistfully back towards a mythical golden age of pederasty.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] } ] }