Universes inside a black hole The Urth list — 27 messages, 8 voices, 26 Jul 2010 https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5675 Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. ============================================================================== James Wynn — 26 Jul 2010, 15:59 http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727703.000-every-black-hole-may-hold-a-hidden-universe.html A theory that the Big Bang occurred -- and our universe exists -- within a black hole. I don't think it maps precisely to the cosmology of either the Sun Cycle or the Wizard Knight, but it has resonances for each. Also, if you think of our universe --inside a black hole-- containing black holes that presumably have their own universes, it's kinda gnostic. u+16b9 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Dan'l Danehy-Oakes — 26 Jul 2010, 16:02 in reply to James Wynn > On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 8:59 AM, James Wynn wrote: > A theory that the Big Bang occurred -- and our universe exists -- ?within a > black hole. I don't think it maps precisely to the cosmology of either the > Sun Cycle or the Wizard Knight, but it has resonances for each. Also, if you > think of our universe --inside a black hole-- containing black holes that > presumably have their own universes, it's kinda gnostic. ...or even Mormon. -- Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 26 Jul 2010, 16:03 in reply to James Wynn Each black hole contains a World. It is not known if these are identical with the parallel Worlds. Probably. . > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727703.000-every-black-hole-may-hold-a-hidden-universe.html > > A theory that the Big Bang occurred -- and our universe exists -- > within a black hole. I don't think it maps precisely to the cosmology of > either the Sun Cycle or the Wizard Knight, but it has resonances for > each. Also, if you think of our universe --inside a black hole-- > containing black holes that presumably have their own universes, it's > kinda gnostic. > > u+16b9 > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 26 Jul 2010, 16:03 in reply to James Wynn Universe is all of the Worlds. . > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727703.000-every-black-hole-may-hold-a-hidden-universe.html > > A theory that the Big Bang occurred -- and our universe exists -- > within a black hole. I don't think it maps precisely to the cosmology of > either the Sun Cycle or the Wizard Knight, but it has resonances for > each. Also, if you think of our universe --inside a black hole-- > containing black holes that presumably have their own universes, it's > kinda gnostic. > > u+16b9 > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 26 Jul 2010, 16:05 in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes The Mormons have knowledge. The problem is most people don't actually believe their religion. What is believe? . > On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 8:59 AM, James Wynn wrote: > > A theory that the Big Bang occurred -- and our universe exists -- > > ?within a > > black hole. I don't think it maps precisely to the cosmology of either > > the > > Sun Cycle or the Wizard Knight, but it has resonances for each. Also, if > > you > > think of our universe --inside a black hole-- containing black holes > > that > > presumably have their own universes, it's kinda gnostic. > ...or even Mormon. > > > -- > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ James Wynn — 26 Jul 2010, 16:40 in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > > Also, if you think of our universe --inside a black hole-- containing black holes that presumably have their own universes, it's kinda gnostic. > > > ...or even Mormon Well, as I understand it, Mormon's believe in succession of gods who preside over their own planets and humanity. But not a succession of universes -- comparable to gnostic aeons. u+16b9 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ James Wynn — 26 Jul 2010, 16:49 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > Each black hole contains a World. It is not known if these are identical with the parallel Worlds. Probably. > Do you mean in the sense that their histories would be roughly compatible? I'm not sure there could be any guarantee of that. u+16b9 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 26 Jul 2010, 16:59 in reply to James Wynn You don't understand it. You think this is all theoretical or something. You don't seem to actually believe any of it. . > > > Also, if you think of our universe --inside a black hole-- containing > > > black holes that presumably have their own universes, it's kinda > > > gnostic. > > ...or even Mormon > Well, as I understand it, Mormon's believe in succession of gods who > preside over their own planets and humanity. But not a succession of > universes -- comparable to gnostic aeons. > > u+16b9 > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 26 Jul 2010, 17:00 in reply to James Wynn What is a false distinction, James Wynn? . > > > Also, if you think of our universe --inside a black hole-- containing > > > black holes that presumably have their own universes, it's kinda > > > gnostic. > > ...or even Mormon > Well, as I understand it, Mormon's believe in succession of gods who > preside over their own planets and humanity. But not a succession of > universes -- comparable to gnostic aeons. > > u+16b9 > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 26 Jul 2010, 17:01 in reply to James Wynn Only the parallel Worlds close to this one resemble this one. Let go of your penis. . > > Each black hole contains a World. It is not known if these are identical > > with the parallel Worlds. Probably. > Do you mean in the sense that their histories would be roughly > compatible? I'm not sure there could be any guarantee of that. > > u+16b9 > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven Bowen — 26 Jul 2010, 18:42 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > On Jul 26, 2010, at 12:05 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > The Mormons have knowledge. I'm sorry, but I have to deny this. I was brought up Mormon, leaving in my adolescence, and I can assure the rest of us here that they have no 'knowledge' in the sense intended. Their entire history is an amalgamation of lies passed down in the security of ignorance among the early membership. That the church continues to exist and spread this nonsense is a measure of human fatuity. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Meyers — 26 Jul 2010, 19:29 in reply to Steven Bowen > On Jul 26, 2010, at 1:42 PM, Steven Bowen wrote: > On Jul 26, 2010, at 12:05 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > The Mormons have knowledge. > I'm sorry, but I have to deny this. I was brought up Mormon, leaving in my adolescence, and I can assure the rest of us here that they have no 'knowledge' in the sense intended. Their entire history is an amalgamation of lies passed down in the security of ignorance among the early membership. That the church continues to exist and spread this nonsense is a measure of human fatuity. Well said. JJM ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 26 Jul 2010, 20:43 in reply to Jeff Meyers You're allowed to disagree. Doesn't change anhything. . > On Jul 26, 2010, at 1:42 PM, Steven Bowen wrote: > > On Jul 26, 2010, at 12:05 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > > The Mormons have knowledge. > > I'm sorry, but I have to deny this. I was brought up Mormon, leaving in > > my adolescence, and I can assure the rest of us here that they have no > > 'knowledge' in the sense intended. Their entire history is an > > amalgamation of lies passed down in the security of ignorance among the > > early membership. That the church continues to exist and spread this > > nonsense is a measure of human fatuity. > Well said. > > JJM > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 26 Jul 2010, 21:06 in reply to James Wynn > On 7/26/2010 10:59 AM, James Wynn wrote: > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727703.000-every-black-hole-may-hold-a-hidden-universe.html > > > A theory that the Big Bang occurred -- and our universe exists -- within > a black hole. I don't think it maps precisely to the cosmology of either > the Sun Cycle or the Wizard Knight, but it has resonances for each. > Also, if you think of our universe --inside a black hole-- containing > black holes that presumably have their own universes, it's kinda gnostic. Quabbalistic as well. But if you come up with a sufficiently self-consistent abstraction, it will probably resemble some model sooner or later. This can also be taken as confirmation of the backward-in-time idea echo mentioned by Dr Talos, and by the aliens in CHILDHOOD'S END, but that takes away from the cleverness of the rabbis involved. -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 26 Jul 2010, 21:14 in reply to Jeff Wilson The collapse of a black hole beyond the event horizon is a Big Bang inside. . > On 7/26/2010 10:59 AM, James Wynn wrote: > > http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20727703.000-every-black-hole-may-hold-a-hidden-universe.html > > > > > > A theory that the Big Bang occurred -- and our universe exists -- within > > a black hole. I don't think it maps precisely to the cosmology of either > > the Sun Cycle or the Wizard Knight, but it has resonances for each. > > Also, if you think of our universe --inside a black hole-- containing > > black holes that presumably have their own universes, it's kinda > > gnostic. > Quabbalistic as well. But if you come up with a sufficiently > self-consistent abstraction, it will probably resemble some model sooner > or later. > > This can also be taken as confirmation of the backward-in-time idea echo > mentioned by Dr Talos, and by the aliens in CHILDHOOD'S END, but that > takes away from the cleverness of the rabbis involved. > > -- > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com > IEEE Student Chapter Blog at > < http://ieeetamut.org > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ James Wynn — 26 Jul 2010, 22:25 in reply to Jeff Meyers > > > The Mormons have knowledge. > > > > > I'm sorry, but I have to deny this. I was brought up Mormon, leaving in my adolescence, and I can assure the rest of us here that they have no 'knowledge' in the sense intended. Their entire history is an amalgamation of lies passed down in the security of ignorance among the early membership. That the church continues to exist and spread this nonsense is a measure of human fatuity. > > Well, for all I know, there are Mormons on the list who have very insightful knowledge about Wolfe's writings. So, if I had anything personally bad to say about their beliefs, I'll keep it quiet. All of those I've met (which is hardly expansive) were fine effing Americans, and a couple were Wolfe fans, and 99% of the time that's good enough for me. u+16b9 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 26 Jul 2010, 22:51 in reply to James Wynn Some people, their religion is just words. Some people believe their religions. Every mormon I've met believed theirs. Those who don't have the decency to leave the church, or identify as jack mormon. . > > > > The Mormons have knowledge. > > > I'm sorry, but I have to deny this. I was brought up Mormon, leaving > > > in my adolescence, and I can assure the rest of us here that they have > > > no 'knowledge' in the sense intended. Their entire history is an > > > amalgamation of lies passed down in the security of ignorance among the > > > early membership. That the church continues to exist and spread this > > > nonsense is a measure of human fatuity. > Well, for all I know, there are Mormons on the list who have very > insightful knowledge about Wolfe's writings. So, if I had anything > personally bad to say about their beliefs, I'll keep it quiet. All of > those I've met (which is hardly expansive) were fine effing Americans, > and a couple were Wolfe fans, and 99% of the time that's good enough for > me. > > u+16b9 > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 26 Jul 2010, 22:52 in reply to brunians at brunians.org I've met lots and lots of mormons. . > Some people, their religion is just words. > > Some people believe their religions. > > Every mormon I've met believed theirs. > > Those who don't have the decency to leave the church, or identify as jack > mormon. > > . > > > > > The Mormons have knowledge. > > > > I'm sorry, but I have to deny this. I was brought up Mormon, leaving > > > > in my adolescence, and I can assure the rest of us here that they have > > > > no 'knowledge' in the sense intended. Their entire history is an > > > > amalgamation of lies passed down in the security of ignorance among > > > > the > > > > early membership. That the church continues to exist and spread this > > > > nonsense is a measure of human fatuity. > > Well, for all I know, there are Mormons on the list who have very > > insightful knowledge about Wolfe's writings. So, if I had anything > > personally bad to say about their beliefs, I'll keep it quiet. All of > > those I've met (which is hardly expansive) were fine effing Americans, > > and a couple were Wolfe fans, and 99% of the time that's good enough for > > me. > > > > u+16b9 > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Jeff Wilson — 26 Jul 2010, 22:58 in reply to James Wynn > On 7/26/2010 5:25 PM, James Wynn wrote: > > > > The Mormons have knowledge. > > > I'm sorry, but I have to deny this. I was brought up Mormon, leaving > > > in my adolescence, and I can assure the rest of us here that they > > > have no 'knowledge' in the sense intended. Their entire history is an > > > amalgamation of lies passed down in the security of ignorance among > > > the early membership. That the church continues to exist and spread > > > this nonsense is a measure of human fatuity. > Well, for all I know, there are Mormons on the list who have very > insightful knowledge about Wolfe's writings. So, if I had anything > personally bad to say about their beliefs, I'll keep it quiet. All of > those I've met (which is hardly expansive) were fine effing Americans, > and a couple were Wolfe fans, and 99% of the time that's good enough for > me. I wonder if Steven Bowen would care to comment on the individual character of Mormons still with the LDS Church, and how this might reflect on the themes of of false religions cultivating genuine virtues in Wolfe. For instance, the obviously self-promoting missionary traditon of the LDS also encourages young people in the church to not just become educated about other parts of the world but also to become familiar with them first hand and perform charitable acts there along with the rest of the mission. How much of this is borne out in practice? -- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 26 Jul 2010, 23:01 in reply to Jeff Wilson How many Tongans are mormon? . > On 7/26/2010 5:25 PM, James Wynn wrote: > > > > > The Mormons have knowledge. > > > > I'm sorry, but I have to deny this. I was brought up Mormon, leaving > > > > in my adolescence, and I can assure the rest of us here that they > > > > have no 'knowledge' in the sense intended. Their entire history is an > > > > amalgamation of lies passed down in the security of ignorance among > > > > the early membership. That the church continues to exist and spread > > > > this nonsense is a measure of human fatuity. > > Well, for all I know, there are Mormons on the list who have very > > insightful knowledge about Wolfe's writings. So, if I had anything > > personally bad to say about their beliefs, I'll keep it quiet. All of > > those I've met (which is hardly expansive) were fine effing Americans, > > and a couple were Wolfe fans, and 99% of the time that's good enough for > > me. > I wonder if Steven Bowen would care to comment on the individual > character of Mormons still with the LDS Church, and how this might > reflect on the themes of of false religions cultivating genuine virtues > in Wolfe. For instance, the obviously self-promoting missionary traditon > of the LDS also encourages young people in the church to not just become > educated about other parts of the world but also to become familiar with > them first hand and perform charitable acts there along with the rest of > the mission. How much of this is borne out in practice? > > -- > Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com > IEEE Student Chapter Blog at > < http://ieeetamut.org > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven Bowen — 29 Jul 2010, 05:11 in reply to James Wynn > On Jul 26, 2010, at 6:25 PM, James Wynn wrote: > Well, for all I know, there are Mormons on the list who have very > insightful knowledge about Wolfe's writings. So, if I had anything > personally bad to say about their beliefs, I'll keep it quiet. All > of those I've met (which is hardly expansive) were fine effing > Americans, and a couple were Wolfe fans, and 99% of the time that's > good enough for me. Well, I'm glad to see that distinction made - certainly didn't want to imply that I thought the LDS reader deficient in some manner relating to their ability to contribute here. I only wanted to challenge the idea that they have some real esoteric knowledge of the ultimate nature of reality. It's my contention they don't, and I'm skeptical of other claims to 'secret knowledge'. I don't have a special condemnation of the Mormons except for the fact that my father's family were pushcart pioneers. My yap is shut. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven Bowen — 29 Jul 2010, 05:24 in reply to Jeff Wilson > On Jul 26, 2010, at 6:58 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > I wonder if Steven Bowen would care to comment on the individual > character of Mormons still with the LDS Church, and how this might > reflect on the themes of of false religions cultivating genuine > virtues in Wolfe. For instance, the obviously self-promoting > missionary traditon of the LDS also encourages young people in the > church to not just become educated about other parts of the world > but also to become familiar with them first hand and perform > charitable acts there along with the rest of the mission. How much > of this is borne out in practice? Freedom of religion has had some strange expressions in America. The problem, insofar as I'm interested, with the Mormons, is that their claims are made contrary to what reliable objective records show to be the case - the facts under contention occurred mere decades ago. Smith had a long history of charlatanism reaching back into his early adolescence. Is this the man who you'd trust with a story of golden plates? In a word, no. Steve--ya ya, unreliable narrators and all that. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 01 Aug 2010, 06:32 in reply to Steven Bowen Joe Smith was a freemason and a professional treasure seer before he became a prophet. Much esoteric stuff is incorporated into mormonism. Anyone else here into the higher theology? . > On Jul 26, 2010, at 6:25 PM, James Wynn wrote: > > Well, for all I know, there are Mormons on the list who have very > > insightful knowledge about Wolfe's writings. So, if I had anything > > personally bad to say about their beliefs, I'll keep it quiet. All > > of those I've met (which is hardly expansive) were fine effing > > Americans, and a couple were Wolfe fans, and 99% of the time that's > > good enough for me. > Well, I'm glad to see that distinction made - certainly didn't want > to imply that I thought the LDS reader deficient in some manner > relating to their ability to contribute here. I only wanted to > challenge the idea that they have some real esoteric knowledge of the > ultimate nature of reality. It's my contention they don't, and I'm > skeptical of other claims to 'secret knowledge'. I don't have a > special condemnation of the Mormons except for the fact that my > father's family were pushcart pioneers. > > My yap is shut. > > Steve > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Steven Bowen — 03 Aug 2010, 17:22 in reply to brunians at brunians.org > On Aug 1, 2010, at 2:32 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > Joe Smith was a freemason and a professional treasure seer before he > became a prophet. That's pretty rich - professional treasure seer. Is there any record of him finding any treasure? Or did he just take money for his 'services'? One of the scams involved telling the client that the treasure was sinking into the earth as the hole was dug towards it. Oh, it's there all right - just keep pluggin' along. Chase it to the bowels of the earth or until your money or gumption runs out. But it's there, I assure you. Steve ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Matthew Weber — 03 Aug 2010, 17:24 in reply to Steven Bowen > On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Steven Bowen wrote: > > On Aug 1, 2010, at 2:32 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > Joe Smith was a freemason and a professional treasure seer before he > > became a prophet. > > > That's pretty rich - professional treasure seer. Is there any record of > him finding any treasure? Or did he just take money for his 'services'? One > of the scams involved telling the client that the treasure was sinking into > the earth as the hole was dug towards it. Oh, it's there all right - just > keep pluggin' along. Chase it to the bowels of the earth or until your > money or gumption runs out. But it's there, I assure you. > > Steve > > > _______________________________________________ Well, he *says* he found some gold tablets. But then, for some reason, he couldn't find them. Oops. -- Matt + Dark Care sits enthroned behind the Knight. Horace [Quintus Horatius Flaccus] (65-8 B.C.), Odes, bk. III [23 B.C.], ode i, l. 40 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ David Stockhoff — 03 Aug 2010, 22:43 in reply to Matthew Weber I believe it. Such scams are as American as apple pie. > Matthew Weber wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 10:22 AM, Steven Bowen > wrote: > > > On Aug 1, 2010, at 2:32 AM, brunians at brunians.org > wrote: > > Joe Smith was a freemason and a professional treasure seer before he > > > > became a prophet. > That's pretty rich - professional treasure seer. Is there any > record of him finding any treasure? Or did he just take money for > his 'services'? One of the scams involved telling the client that > the treasure was sinking into the earth as the hole was dug > towards it. Oh, it's there all right - just keep pluggin' along. > Chase it to the bowels of the earth or until your money or > gumption runs out. But it's there, I assure you. > > Steve > > > _______________________________________________ > > > Well, he /says/ he found some gold tablets. But then, for some > reason, he couldn't find them. Oops. > > > -- > Matt + > > Dark Care sits enthroned behind the Knight. > Horace [Quintus Horatius Flaccus] (65-8 B.C.), Odes, bk. III [23 > B.C.], ode i, l. 40 > > ------------------------------------------------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ brunians at brunians.org — 04 Aug 2010, 03:18 in reply to Steven Bowen > On Aug 1, 2010, at 2:32 AM, brunians at brunians.org wrote: > > Joe Smith was a freemason and a professional treasure seer before he > > became a prophet. > That's pretty rich - professional treasure seer. Is there any record > of him finding any treasure? Yes. People do bury treasure. . ------------------------------------------------------------------------------