{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5676", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5676, "subject": "Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "messages": 106, "voices": 16, "first": "2010-07-26T18:45:46+00:00", "last": "2010-08-01T21:38:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Edward cotton", "address": "severedda at hotmail.fr" }, "date": "2010-07-26T18:45:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Forgive me if I am going over old ground but I am a first time user of this forum \n(after hanging about for a year or two) and I have just started a re-read of the \nNew Sun after a long break. \nMuch of what occurs later in the books I have forgotten. \nSo I am forming theories that may turn out to be horribly ridiculous. I did see a \nbit of recent discussion about Rudesind and Inire — which sprang to mind \nas I read “The Picture-Cleaner and Others” chapter.\n \nThe line that jumped off the page for me this time was -\n“There’s your blue Urth coming over his shoulder again, fresh as the Autarch’s fish.”\nRudesind - when showing Severian the lunar landscape image.\n \nThe use of “your blue Urth” makes me strongly believe Rudesind \nis a Cacogen and possibly Inire. \nI also wondered if this is something he(if it is Inire) does to all potential \nAutarchs / Concilators. Show them an early image of the Earth lit by the \nsun — fresh as the Autarch’s fish. He mentions that he has cleaned \nthis image 2 other times in the past and I wonder if the vague times he gives \ncould correspond to the rise of the previous two Autarchs.\n \nWell, I apologise for the quality of my English — I have no excuse apart from lack of education.\n \t\t \t \t\t \n_________________________________________________________________\nAllumez et ?teignez votre PC en un instant avec Windows 7 !\nhttp://clk.atdmt.com/FRM/go/238030931/direct/01/" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4E1029.5020809@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-26T22:46:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/26/2010 1:45 PM, Edward cotton wrote:\nThe use of “your blue Urth” makes me strongly believe Rudesind\n\nis a Cacogen and possibly Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Rudesind is secretly Inire, Inire has also hidden this from the Old \nAutarch, and presumably from as many autarchs as overlap a \nfalse-Rudesind's plausible lifetime.\n\nAlso, \"your blue Urth\" is ultimately the translator's choice of words, \nnot necessarily a literal translation of what Severian recorded. \"Your \n[item]\" is part of an English idiom that is popular among craftsmen who \nwork on other people's property, perhaps like an engineer who has been \nhired to improve an existing potato chip production line, and this has \nbecome a marketing tool where \"your\" addresses the audience even if they \ndon't own the item yet, and even if the crafter is promoting a recipe or \nabstract idea rather than a service.\n\nGoogling \"your basic\" yields 2 million + examples of this modest \nvariation, but the idiom is at least decades old; \"Your Show of Shows\" \ndebuted in 1950." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also wondered if this is something he(if it is Inire) does to all\npotential\n\nAutarchs / Concilators. Show them an early image of the Earth lit by the\n\nsun — fresh as the Autarch’s fish. He mentions that he has cleaned\n\nthis image 2 other times in the past and I wonder if the vague times he\ngives\n\ncould correspond to the rise of the previous two Autarchs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inire has been around since at least the reign of Ymar, about a thousand \nyears before Severian, and there have been dozens of Autarchs during \nthis time. However, there were only two before Severian that stood trial \nin Yesod, they might correspond to the two earlier cleanings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I apologise for the quality of my English — I have no excuse apart\nfrom lack of education." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are doing fine. Effort of speech encourages brevity and \nconsideration. Some other posters here are given to overuse their \ncommand of English almost as much as I do." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8dac78aca9291e45090a8140ce4ed968.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-26T22:48:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C4E1029.5020809@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wilson, who doesn't know what I have in my pockets, writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/26/2010 1:45 PM, Edward cotton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The use of “your blue Urth” makes me strongly believe Rudesind" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "is a Cacogen and possibly Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Rudesind is secretly Inire, Inire has also hidden this from the Old\nAutarch, and presumably from as many autarchs as overlap a\nfalse-Rudesind's plausible lifetime." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you say this?\n\nWho has met Rudesind, besides Severian?\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-26T23:05:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<8dac78aca9291e45090a8140ce4ed968.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It isn't who else has met Rudesind, it's who else has met Inire.\n\nSeverian is for all intents and purposes also Thecla and the Old Autarch,\nboth of whom know Inire. He might has missed the connection in Shadow, when\nhe wasn't other people yet, but in Citadel he is and is thinking and talking\nabout Inire with Rudesind. Sort of a big thing to miss.\n\nIt's possible that virtually everything Rudesind says is a lie and he is\nelaborately disguised to hide the fact that he is Father Inire. I'm not\ncertain what purpose that deception would serve by the time of Citadel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 6:48 PM, wrote:\nWilson, who doesn't know what I have in my pockets, writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/26/2010 1:45 PM, Edward cotton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The use of “your blue Urth” makes me strongly believe Rudesind" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "is a Cacogen and possibly Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If Rudesind is secretly Inire, Inire has also hidden this from the Old\nAutarch, and presumably from as many autarchs as overlap a\nfalse-Rudesind's plausible lifetime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why do you say this?\n\nWho has met Rudesind, besides Severian?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4E17F7.9090903@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-07-26T23:19:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind, Ultan (was: Re: Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello Edward, great (as a fellow newb) to read you on list." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 26/07/10 19:45, Edward cotton wrote:\nForgive me if I am going over old ground but I am a first time user of this forum\n(after hanging about for a year or two) and I have just started a re-read of the\nNew Sun after a long break.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Recently went back to it after 15 years myself. Now reading it *again* \nand starting to appreciate all those little wrinkles one never noticed \nearlier. The passage which just struck me today was that regarding Sev's \nfirst encounter with Master Ultan: \"...Again I seemed to hear bronze, \nand quite suddenly I felt that he and I were dead, and that the darkness \nsurrounding us was grave soil pressing in about our eyes, grave soil \nthrough which the bell called us to worship at whatever shrines may \nexist below ground ...\" Severian proceeds to have a very vivid \nrecollection of the woman extracted by Vodalus's men from her grave, so \nvivid indeed that for a moment, he perceives that dead face superimposed \nupon the \"almost luminous whiteness\" of the speaker.\n\nThe speaker is Master Ultan, of course, of the Guild of Curators \n(Librarians' branch). Questions that occur to me on reading this passage \nnow would include (i) why does Ultan's voice resound like a bronze bell? \n(ii) why does this sound give Sev such a vivid and nightmarish sensation \nof being already dead and buried and (iii) how come Sev can suddenly see \nin the dark?!! It's pretty clear from surrounding descriptive passages \nthat this part of the Library is *utterly* dark - dark enough that the \ndarkness presses upon the eyes like grave-soil - yet Sev's vision of the \nwoman extracted from her grave is superimposed in his eyes upon an \n'almost luminous whiteness' in front of him.\n\nWhat is he seeing? Is the figure of Ultan somewhat self-luminous? A few \nparagraphs later it has been demoted to merely 'dim'. Yet if there is \neven a 'dim' figure perceptible here, Sev must be overstating the depth \nof the 'grave like' darkness he has reported a short time before.\n\nEither Ultan is actually self-luminous (!) or this is one of those \nplaces where GW subtly gives notice that Sev is an unreliable narrator. \nOr both of course.\n\nEither way, this passage makes me think that Ultan is possibly a \nstronger contender for 'cacogen' status than Rudesind. Though I don't \nthink there's any immediate reason to assume that either one of them \nbeing a 'cacogen' means that they are therefore to be identified with \nInire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The use of “your blue Urth” makes me strongly believe Rudesind\nis a Cacogen and possibly Inire.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have to admit I'd always taken 'your blue Urth' as a figure of speech. \nHad not grokked at all that 'your' might have a specific meaning here, \nie. 'yours not mine'; but having re-read the same passage just now I \nhave to admit it's possible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also wondered if this is something he(if it is Inire) does to all potential\nAutarchs / Concilators. Show them an early image of the Earth lit by the\nsun — fresh as the Autarch’s fish. He mentions that he has cleaned\nthis image 2 other times in the past and I wonder if the vague times he gives\ncould correspond to the rise of the previous two Autarchs.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you mean the only two other Autarchs who have either dared, or \nthought it appropriate to, go to Yesod in quest of the New Sun? Those \nwould be Ymar himself, and also Appian (if this identification is \ncorrect - the Old Autarch to whom Sev proves to be successor). None of \nthe others (and we are told explicitly, several times over, that there \nhave been hundreds of them; men, women, even children) took the Test - \nand Sev himself provides a more than adequate explanation for this, \nwhich is that more than likely they saw their immediate duty to the \nCommonwealth as paramount.\n\n[Duh. Given the importance of the 'fish' symbol later on, it just now \noccurs to me that perhaps there's even more to the remark about 'fresh \nas the Autarch's *fish*' than appears on the surface. But perhaps I'm \njust getting carried away here.]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, I apologise for the quality of my English — I have no excuse apart from lack of education.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wish I could write any other language as well as you do English - I'd \nassumed you were a native speaker until I read that last sentence!\n\nBTW please excuse me for altering the header when responding, it's the \nonly way I can get my ISP's mail server to return my own list posts to me.\n\nregards\n\nJD" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-26T23:45:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "People never disguise themselves and lie, do they?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It isn't who else has met Rudesind, it's who else has met Inire.\n\nSeverian is for all intents and purposes also Thecla and the Old Autarch,\nboth of whom know Inire. He might has missed the connection in Shadow,\nwhen\nhe wasn't other people yet, but in Citadel he is and is thinking and\ntalking\nabout Inire with Rudesind. Sort of a big thing to miss.\n\nIt's possible that virtually everything Rudesind says is a lie and he is\nelaborately disguised to hide the fact that he is Father Inire. I'm not\ncertain what purpose that deception would serve by the time of Citadel.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 6:48 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wilson, who doesn't know what I have in my pockets, writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 7/26/2010 1:45 PM, Edward cotton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The use of “your blue Urth” makes me strongly believe Rudesind" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "is a Cacogen and possibly Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If Rudesind is secretly Inire, Inire has also hidden this from the Old\nAutarch, and presumably from as many autarchs as overlap a\nfalse-Rudesind's plausible lifetime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why do you say this?\n\nWho has met Rudesind, besides Severian?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T00:38:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, those things are known to happen.\n\nThey're even known to happen for no reason.\n\nHeck, maybe little Severian is Inire. He doesn't look like him, or act like\nhim, or talk like him. But Inire can probably disguise himself pretty well,\nand lie." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 7:45 PM, wrote:\nPeople never disguise themselves and lie, do they?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It isn't who else has met Rudesind, it's who else has met Inire.\n\nSeverian is for all intents and purposes also Thecla and the Old Autarch,\nboth of whom know Inire. He might has missed the connection in Shadow,\nwhen\nhe wasn't other people yet, but in Citadel he is and is thinking and\ntalking\nabout Inire with Rudesind. Sort of a big thing to miss.\n\nIt's possible that virtually everything Rudesind says is a lie and he is\nelaborately disguised to hide the fact that he is Father Inire. I'm not\ncertain what purpose that deception would serve by the time of Citadel.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 6:48 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wilson, who doesn't know what I have in my pockets, writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 7/26/2010 1:45 PM, Edward cotton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The use of “your blue Urth” makes me strongly believe Rudesind" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "is a Cacogen and possibly Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If Rudesind is secretly Inire, Inire has also hidden this from the Old\nAutarch, and presumably from as many autarchs as overlap a\nfalse-Rudesind's plausible lifetime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why do you say this?\n\nWho has met Rudesind, besides Severian?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5e701b0719f6b3bc825350659fbe262b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-27T00:45:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why can't Rudesind?\n\nWhat's wrong with him?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, those things are known to happen.\n\nThey're even known to happen for no reason.\n\nHeck, maybe little Severian is Inire. He doesn't look like him, or act\nlike\nhim, or talk like him. But Inire can probably disguise himself pretty\nwell,\nand lie.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 7:45 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "People never disguise themselves and lie, do they?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It isn't who else has met Rudesind, it's who else has met Inire.\n\nSeverian is for all intents and purposes also Thecla and the Old\nAutarch,\nboth of whom know Inire. He might has missed the connection in\nShadow,\nwhen\nhe wasn't other people yet, but in Citadel he is and is thinking and\ntalking\nabout Inire with Rudesind. Sort of a big thing to miss.\n\nIt's possible that virtually everything Rudesind says is a lie and he\nis\nelaborately disguised to hide the fact that he is Father Inire. I'm\nnot\ncertain what purpose that deception would serve by the time of\nCitadel.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 6:48 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Wilson, who doesn't know what I have in my pockets, writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 7/26/2010 1:45 PM, Edward cotton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "The use of “your blue Urth” makes me strongly believe Rudesind" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "is a Cacogen and possibly Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If Rudesind is secretly Inire, Inire has also hidden this from the\nOld\nAutarch, and presumably from as many autarchs as overlap a\nfalse-Rudesind's plausible lifetime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why do you say this?\n\nWho has met Rudesind, besides Severian?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-27T00:46:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<5e701b0719f6b3bc825350659fbe262b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's multiple people named JW on this list.\n\nHmmm.\n\nWhere's that rulebook?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why can't Rudesind?\n\nWhat's wrong with him?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, those things are known to happen.\n\nThey're even known to happen for no reason.\n\nHeck, maybe little Severian is Inire. He doesn't look like him, or act\nlike\nhim, or talk like him. But Inire can probably disguise himself pretty\nwell,\nand lie.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 7:45 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "People never disguise themselves and lie, do they?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "It isn't who else has met Rudesind, it's who else has met Inire.\n\nSeverian is for all intents and purposes also Thecla and the Old\nAutarch,\nboth of whom know Inire. He might has missed the connection in\nShadow,\nwhen\nhe wasn't other people yet, but in Citadel he is and is thinking and\ntalking\nabout Inire with Rudesind. Sort of a big thing to miss.\n\nIt's possible that virtually everything Rudesind says is a lie and he\nis\nelaborately disguised to hide the fact that he is Father Inire. I'm\nnot\ncertain what purpose that deception would serve by the time of\nCitadel.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 6:48 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Wilson, who doesn't know what I have in my pockets, writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On 7/26/2010 1:45 PM, Edward cotton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "The use of “your blue Urth” makes me strongly believe Rudesind" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "is a Cacogen and possibly Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "If Rudesind is secretly Inire, Inire has also hidden this from the\nOld\nAutarch, and presumably from as many autarchs as overlap a\nfalse-Rudesind's plausible lifetime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Why do you say this?\n\nWho has met Rudesind, besides Severian?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T02:43:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a good point.\n\nApplying a like exegesis to this list, Wynn, Wilson and I are all one being." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 8:46 PM, wrote:\nThere's multiple people named JW on this list.\n\nHmmm.\n\nWhere's that rulebook?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why can't Rudesind?\n\nWhat's wrong with him?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "No, those things are known to happen.\n\nThey're even known to happen for no reason.\n\nHeck, maybe little Severian is Inire. He doesn't look like him, or act\nlike\nhim, or talk like him. But Inire can probably disguise himself pretty\nwell,\nand lie.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 7:45 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "People never disguise themselves and lie, do they?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It isn't who else has met Rudesind, it's who else has met Inire.\n\nSeverian is for all intents and purposes also Thecla and the Old\nAutarch,\nboth of whom know Inire. He might has missed the connection in\nShadow,\nwhen\nhe wasn't other people yet, but in Citadel he is and is thinking and\ntalking\nabout Inire with Rudesind. Sort of a big thing to miss.\n\nIt's possible that virtually everything Rudesind says is a lie and he\nis\nelaborately disguised to hide the fact that he is Father Inire. I'm\nnot\ncertain what purpose that deception would serve by the time of\nCitadel.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 6:48 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Wilson, who doesn't know what I have in my pockets, writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On 7/26/2010 1:45 PM, Edward cotton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "The use of “your blue Urth” makes me strongly believe Rudesind" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "is a Cacogen and possibly Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "If Rudesind is secretly Inire, Inire has also hidden this from the\nOld\nAutarch, and presumably from as many autarchs as overlap a\nfalse-Rudesind's plausible lifetime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Why do you say this?\n\nWho has met Rudesind, besides Severian?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<69111976c968fd139aec87edd779ca49.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-27T02:48:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt this, but I don't know.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's a good point.\n\nApplying a like exegesis to this list, Wynn, Wilson and I are all one\nbeing.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 8:46 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There's multiple people named JW on this list.\n\nHmmm.\n\nWhere's that rulebook?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Why can't Rudesind?\n\nWhat's wrong with him?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "No, those things are known to happen.\n\nThey're even known to happen for no reason.\n\nHeck, maybe little Severian is Inire. He doesn't look like him, or\nact\nlike\nhim, or talk like him. But Inire can probably disguise himself\npretty\nwell,\nand lie.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 7:45 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "People never disguise themselves and lie, do they?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "It isn't who else has met Rudesind, it's who else has met Inire.\n\nSeverian is for all intents and purposes also Thecla and the Old\nAutarch,\nboth of whom know Inire. He might has missed the connection in\nShadow,\nwhen\nhe wasn't other people yet, but in Citadel he is and is thinking\nand\ntalking\nabout Inire with Rudesind. Sort of a big thing to miss.\n\nIt's possible that virtually everything Rudesind says is a lie and\nhe\nis\nelaborately disguised to hide the fact that he is Father Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm\nnot\ncertain what purpose that deception would serve by the time of\nCitadel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 6:48 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Wilson, who doesn't know what I have in my pockets, writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "On 7/26/2010 1:45 PM, Edward cotton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "The use of “your blue Urth” makes me strongly believe Rudesind" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "is a Cacogen and possibly Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "If Rudesind is secretly Inire, Inire has also hidden this from\nthe\nOld\nAutarch, and presumably from as many autarchs as overlap a\nfalse-Rudesind's plausible lifetime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Why do you say this?\n\nWho has met Rudesind, besides Severian?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4E4CBF.80602@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-27T03:04:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<69111976c968fd139aec87edd779ca49.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, not knowing is not an argument either way.\n\nWhat we do know is that each of the three JWs has a noticeably different \nmanner as expressed in typed \"speech.\" They are certainly different \n\"personas.\"\n\nWhat we don't know is the significance of their being one.\n\nWe need to know more about them. Are there any clues as to hair or eye \ncolor?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nI doubt this, but I don't know.\n\n.\n\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's a good point.\n\nApplying a like exegesis to this list, Wynn, Wilson and I are all one\nbeing.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 8:46 PM, wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There's multiple people named JW on this list.\n\nHmmm.\n\nWhere's that rulebook?\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Why can't Rudesind?\n\nWhat's wrong with him?\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "No, those things are known to happen.\n\nThey're even known to happen for no reason.\n\nHeck, maybe little Severian is Inire. He doesn't look like him, or\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "act\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "like\nhim, or talk like him. But Inire can probably disguise himself\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "pretty\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "well,\nand lie.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 7:45 PM, wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "People never disguise themselves and lie, do they?\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "It isn't who else has met Rudesind, it's who else has met Inire.\n\nSeverian is for all intents and purposes also Thecla and the Old\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Autarch,\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "both of whom know Inire. He might has missed the connection in\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Shadow,\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "when\nhe wasn't other people yet, but in Citadel he is and is thinking\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "and\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "talking\nabout Inire with Rudesind. Sort of a big thing to miss.\n\nIt's possible that virtually everything Rudesind says is a lie and\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "he\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "is\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "elaborately disguised to hide the fact that he is Father Inire.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'm\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "not\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "certain what purpose that deception would serve by the time of\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Citadel.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 6:48 PM, wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Wilson, who doesn't know what I have in my pockets, writes:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "On 7/26/2010 1:45 PM, Edward cotton wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "The use of “your blue Urth” makes me strongly believe Rudesind\n \nis a Cacogen and possibly Inire.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "If Rudesind is secretly Inire, Inire has also hidden this from\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "the\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Old\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Autarch, and presumably from as many autarchs as overlap a\nfalse-Rudesind's plausible lifetime.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Why do you say this?\n\nWho has met Rudesind, besides Severian?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9b1e4117b5044db82ce0b67576bee0af.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-27T03:26:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C4E4CBF.80602@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Beats me!\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, not knowing is not an argument either way.\n\nWhat we do know is that each of the three JWs has a noticeably different\nmanner as expressed in typed \"speech.\" They are certainly different\n\"personas.\"\n\nWhat we don't know is the significance of their being one.\n\nWe need to know more about them. Are there any clues as to hair or eye\ncolor?\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I doubt this, but I don't know.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's a good point.\n\nApplying a like exegesis to this list, Wynn, Wilson and I are all one\nbeing.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 8:46 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "There's multiple people named JW on this list.\n\nHmmm.\n\nWhere's that rulebook?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Why can't Rudesind?\n\nWhat's wrong with him?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "No, those things are known to happen.\n\nThey're even known to happen for no reason.\n\nHeck, maybe little Severian is Inire. He doesn't look like him, or" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "act" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "like\nhim, or talk like him. But Inire can probably disguise himself" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "pretty" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "well,\nand lie.\n\nOn Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 7:45 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "People never disguise themselves and lie, do they?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "It isn't who else has met Rudesind, it's who else has met Inire.\n\nSeverian is for all intents and purposes also Thecla and the Old" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Autarch," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "both of whom know Inire. He might has missed the connection in" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Shadow," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "when\nhe wasn't other people yet, but in Citadel he is and is thinking" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "talking\nabout Inire with Rudesind. Sort of a big thing to miss.\n\nIt's possible that virtually everything Rudesind says is a lie and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "he" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "elaborately disguised to hide the fact that he is Father Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "I'm" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "not" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "certain what purpose that deception would serve by the time of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Citadel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "On Mon, Jul 26, 2010 at 6:48 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Wilson, who doesn't know what I have in my pockets, writes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "On 7/26/2010 1:45 PM, Edward cotton wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 11, "text": "The use of “your blue Urth” makes me strongly believe Rudesind\n\nis a Cacogen and possibly Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "If Rudesind is secretly Inire, Inire has also hidden this from" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Old" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Autarch, and presumably from as many autarchs as overlap a\nfalse-Rudesind's plausible lifetime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Why do you say this?\n\nWho has met Rudesind, besides Severian?\n\n.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4E6E8A.8040808@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T05:28:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind, Ultan", "in_reply_to": "<4C4E17F7.9090903@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/26/2010 6:19 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nRecently went back to it after 15 years myself. Now reading it *again*\nand starting to appreciate all those little wrinkles one never noticed\nearlier. The passage which just struck me today was that regarding Sev's\nfirst encounter with Master Ultan: \"...Again I seemed to hear bronze,\nand quite suddenly I felt that he and I were dead, and that the darkness\nsurrounding us was grave soil pressing in about our eyes, grave soil\nthrough which the bell called us to worship at whatever shrines may\nexist below ground ...\" Severian proceeds to have a very vivid\nrecollection of the woman extracted by Vodalus's men from her grave, so\nvivid indeed that for a moment, he perceives that dead face superimposed\nupon the \"almost luminous whiteness\" of the speaker." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The burial metaphor appears to be solved in Sev's final encounter with \nRudesind in CITADEL:\n\n\"...I wanted you to see there has been a lot come before you. That there \nwas thousands and thousands that lived and died before you was ever \nthought of, some better than you. I mean, Autarch, the way you was then. \nYou'd think anybody growing up here in the old Citadel would be born \nknowing all that, but I've found they're not. Being around it all the \ntime, they don't see it. But going down there to Master Ultan brings it \nhome to the cleverer ones.\"\n\n\"You are the advocate of the dead.\"\n\nThe old man nodded. \"I am. People talk about being fair to this one and \nthat one, but nobody I ever heard talks about doing right by them. We \ntake everything they had, which is all right. And spit, most often, on \ntheir opinions, which I suppose is all right too. But we ought to \nremember now and then how much of what we have we got from them. I \nfigure while I'm still here I ought to put a word in for them. And now, \nif you don't mind, Autarch, I'll just lay the letter here on this funny \ntable?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Either Ultan is actually self-luminous (!) or this is one of those\nplaces where GW subtly gives notice that Sev is an unreliable narrator.\nOr both of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev's not quite at the utterly dark portion of the library yet, there's \nstill some light from the upper floor to which his eyes are adjusting. \nThe \"almost luminous whiteness\" is attributable to the recently \nmentioned white beard that reaches almost to Ultan's waist, and is \napparently rather broad for Severian to mistake it for a garment. Given \nthat Ultan is about 7 1/2 feet tall, that's a lot of beard, and a lot of \nwhiteness. The shininess of hair would give it some lustre even in the \ndarkness.\n\nAnd if anyone is an exULTANt, it's Ultan." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<730AE2C19DF54346BB7492D935335293@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-07-27T09:01:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C4E1029.5020809@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nAlso, \"your blue Urth\" is ultimately the translator's choice of words,\nnot necessarily a literal translation of what Severian recorded. \"Your\n[item]\" is part of an English idiom that is popular among craftsmen who\nwork on other people's property, perhaps like an engineer who has been\nhired to improve an existing potato chip production line, and this has\nbecome a marketing tool where \"your\" addresses the audience even if they\ndon't own the item yet, and even if the crafter is promoting a recipe or\nabstract idea rather than a service.\nGoogling \"your basic\" yields 2 million + examples of this modest\nvariation, but the idiom is at least decades old; \"Your Show of Shows\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "debuted in 1950.\n\nThis use of \"your\" is common in Ireland, and has almost certainly been so \nfor generations.. A very common version is \"your man\" meaning \"that man\", as \nin \"[Do you] see your man over there?\".\n\nOther versions use \"your\" in place of \"the\", as in \"Your frog, now, [ in \ncontrast to some previously mentioned creature] is a more amphibious type \nof fellow\".\n\nOf course the idiom may not be as common everywhere; but for me Rudesind's \nuse of \"your\"\ncarries no special implications relating to ownership or origin, and such \nimplications never occurred to me before I saw them discussed on this list.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4EB5FC.6050003@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T10:33:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/26/2010 9:43 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nThat's a good point.\nApplying a like exegesis to this list, Wynn, Wilson and I are all one being." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. On another list, made up of fellow A&M matriculant fen, there were \nso many JWs that we were assigned numbers. I am Number Five.\n\nDid I ever tell you about the \"real\" Second House, complete with hidden \ngalleries for amorous and sadistic young aristocrats?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4EC02D.7090803@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-27T11:17:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind, Ultan", "in_reply_to": "<4C4E6E8A.8040808@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Being around it all the time, they don't see it.\"\n\nThus, perhaps, the Look and See phrase carved in the Atrium of Time.\n\nRudesind's whole speech can be read with three levels of meaning. (1) \nthe young people don't think about the past (2) there has been a long \nline of autarchs (3) there have been many \"Yous.\" Severian's response \ndoesn't commit to any one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/26/2010 6:19 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Recently went back to it after 15 years myself. Now reading it *again*\nand starting to appreciate all those little wrinkles one never noticed\nearlier. The passage which just struck me today was that regarding Sev's\nfirst encounter with Master Ultan: \"...Again I seemed to hear bronze,\nand quite suddenly I felt that he and I were dead, and that the darkness\nsurrounding us was grave soil pressing in about our eyes, grave soil\nthrough which the bell called us to worship at whatever shrines may\nexist below ground ...\" Severian proceeds to have a very vivid\nrecollection of the woman extracted by Vodalus's men from her grave, so\nvivid indeed that for a moment, he perceives that dead face superimposed\nupon the \"almost luminous whiteness\" of the speaker." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The burial metaphor appears to be solved in Sev's final encounter with \nRudesind in CITADEL:\n\n\"...I wanted you to see there has been a lot come before you. That \nthere was thousands and thousands that lived and died before you was \never thought of, some better than you. I mean, Autarch, the way you \nwas then. You'd think anybody growing up here in the old Citadel would \nbe born knowing all that, but I've found they're not. Being around it \nall the time, they don't see it. But going down there to Master Ultan \nbrings it home to the cleverer ones.\"\n\n\"You are the advocate of the dead.\"\n\nThe old man nodded. \"I am. People talk about being fair to this one \nand that one, but nobody I ever heard talks about doing right by them. \nWe take everything they had, which is all right. And spit, most often, \non their opinions, which I suppose is all right too. But we ought to \nremember now and then how much of what we have we got from them. I \nfigure while I'm still here I ought to put a word in for them. And \nnow, if you don't mind, Autarch, I'll just lay the letter here on this \nfunny table?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Either Ultan is actually self-luminous (!) or this is one of those\nplaces where GW subtly gives notice that Sev is an unreliable narrator.\nOr both of course." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sev's not quite at the utterly dark portion of the library yet, \nthere's still some light from the upper floor to which his eyes are \nadjusting. The \"almost luminous whiteness\" is attributable to the \nrecently mentioned white beard that reaches almost to Ultan's waist, \nand is apparently rather broad for Severian to mistake it for a \ngarment. Given that Ultan is about 7 1/2 feet tall, that's a lot of \nbeard, and a lot of whiteness. The shininess of hair would give it \nsome lustre even in the darkness.\n\nAnd if anyone is an exULTANt, it's Ultan." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4EC08B.8080103@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-27T11:18:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<730AE2C19DF54346BB7492D935335293@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only that Wolfe is very careful with his idioms and his voices. Recall, \nfor example, that the cacogens speak in blank verse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nAlso, \"your blue Urth\" is ultimately the translator's choice of words,\nnot necessarily a literal translation of what Severian recorded. \"Your\n[item]\" is part of an English idiom that is popular among craftsmen who\nwork on other people's property, perhaps like an engineer who has been\nhired to improve an existing potato chip production line, and this has\nbecome a marketing tool where \"your\" addresses the audience even if they\ndon't own the item yet, and even if the crafter is promoting a recipe or\nabstract idea rather than a service." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Googling \"your basic\" yields 2 million + examples of this modest\nvariation, but the idiom is at least decades old; \"Your Show of Shows\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "debuted in 1950.\n\nThis use of \"your\" is common in Ireland, and has almost certainly been \nso for generations.. A very common version is \"your man\" meaning \"that \nman\", as in \"[Do you] see your man over there?\".\n\nOther versions use \"your\" in place of \"the\", as in \"Your frog, now, [ \nin contrast to some previously mentioned creature] is a more \namphibious type of fellow\".\n\nOf course the idiom may not be as common everywhere; but for me \nRudesind's use of \"your\"\ncarries no special implications relating to ownership or origin, and \nsuch implications never occurred to me before I saw them discussed on \nthis list.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<06a27dbc2be3872939c9dee58c16a6a0.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-27T11:46:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<730AE2C19DF54346BB7492D935335293@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All of the JW's are stupid.\n\nThat doesn't necessarily mean a lot: many people here are stupid, at least\nonce in a while - even I have been stupid upon occasion.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nAlso, \"your blue Urth\" is ultimately the translator's choice of words,\nnot necessarily a literal translation of what Severian recorded. \"Your\n[item]\" is part of an English idiom that is popular among craftsmen who\nwork on other people's property, perhaps like an engineer who has been\nhired to improve an existing potato chip production line, and this has\nbecome a marketing tool where \"your\" addresses the audience even if they\ndon't own the item yet, and even if the crafter is promoting a recipe or\nabstract idea rather than a service." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Googling \"your basic\" yields 2 million + examples of this modest\nvariation, but the idiom is at least decades old; \"Your Show of Shows\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "debuted in 1950.\n\nThis use of \"your\" is common in Ireland, and has almost certainly been so\nfor generations.. A very common version is \"your man\" meaning \"that man\",\nas\nin \"[Do you] see your man over there?\".\n\nOther versions use \"your\" in place of \"the\", as in \"Your frog, now, [ in\ncontrast to some previously mentioned creature] is a more amphibious type\nof fellow\".\n\nOf course the idiom may not be as common everywhere; but for me Rudesind's\nuse of \"your\"\ncarries no special implications relating to ownership or origin, and such\nimplications never occurred to me before I saw them discussed on this\nlist.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<90d5d0d6a1ca2f51dd062400f6e0b2cb.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-07-27T11:49:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C4EB5FC.6050003@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not only are they all stupid, but they are all stupid in very similar ways.\n\nAnd, it is interesting, is Watkins himself suggesting that he, Wilson and\nWynn may in fact be the same being in a clumsy attempt at denial - the\nkind we'd expect from a really dumb person?\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/26/2010 9:43 PM, John Watkins wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's a good point.\nApplying a like exegesis to this list, Wynn, Wilson and I are all one\nbeing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. On another list, made up of fellow A&M matriculant fen, there were\nso many JWs that we were assigned numbers. I am Number Five.\n\nDid I ever tell you about the \"real\" Second House, complete with hidden\ngalleries for amorous and sadistic young aristocrats?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T12:05:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<90d5d0d6a1ca2f51dd062400f6e0b2cb.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Edward Cotton- The use of “your blue Urth” makes me strongly believe Rudesind \nis a Cacogen and possibly Inire. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, I don't know that there is any way to prove such a thing, certainly not to \nthose who don't like the idea. But it is interesting that different paths can arrive\nat the same destination. My own starting point to it was observing Rudesind as being\nold, bent and resembling a monkey.\n \n(I had noticed all the JW's also. Funny. I think Wolfe has a son named Roy but I don't\nknow if his other son's name starts with J)\n \n \nAnyway, reminds me of a similar dual path to Agia and Agilus being Severian's cousins. \nFor Borski it was their twin status and the aureate imagery Wolfe gives them and other\nfamily members of Severian. He (weirdly) thinks their mother is the jailed woman who \nmakes furniture from children.\n \nFor me it was the incest between Agia and Agilus that steered me in the direction and\nidentification of a better possible mother/aunt to link them to Severian. That aunt \nbeing Cyriaca, the dark-haired, oval-faced, failed Pelerine who could be a sister (in \nsome manner) to Catherine. If her goal, after escape from Thrax, is to survive by cooking\nand sewing in Nessus, it may be that she is unaware her son is dead and her daughter \nhas closed up the used garment shop she bequeathed them. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T12:12:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C4EC08B.8080103@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps \"your blue Urth,\" when spoken to Severian, is meant to imply, not\n\"your Urth, not mine, because I'm a cacogen,\" but \"your Urth, not mine,\nbecause you may be its epitome.\"\n\nAt any rate, I don't object to the possibility that Rudesind is a cacogen so\nmuch as I object to his identification with Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 7:18 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nOnly that Wolfe is very careful with his idioms and his voices. Recall, for\nexample, that the cacogens speak in blank verse.\n\nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Also, \"your blue Urth\" is ultimately the translator's choice of words," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "not necessarily a literal translation of what Severian recorded. \"Your\n[item]\" is part of an English idiom that is popular among craftsmen who\nwork on other people's property, perhaps like an engineer who has been\nhired to improve an existing potato chip production line, and this has\nbecome a marketing tool where \"your\" addresses the audience even if they\ndon't own the item yet, and even if the crafter is promoting a recipe or\nabstract idea rather than a service." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Googling \"your basic\" yields 2 million + examples of this modest" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "variation, but the idiom is at least decades old; \"Your Show of Shows\"\ndebuted in 1950.\n\nThis use of \"your\" is common in Ireland, and has almost certainly been so\nfor generations.. A very common version is \"your man\" meaning \"that man\", as\nin \"[Do you] see your man over there?\".\n\nOther versions use \"your\" in place of \"the\", as in \"Your frog, now, [ in\ncontrast to some previously mentioned creature] is a more amphibious type\nof fellow\".\n\nOf course the idiom may not be as common everywhere; but for me Rudesind's\nuse of \"your\"\ncarries no special implications relating to ownership or origin, and such\nimplications never occurred to me before I saw them discussed on this list.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Edward cotton", "address": "severedda at hotmail.fr" }, "date": "2010-07-27T13:03:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "To JD and others who have followed this thread.\n\n \n\nHello JD - aye, it is good to hear from a fellow newb and someone reading the books \nwith a relatively fresh pair of eyes. And I am glad you assumed I was a native speaker - as indeed I am - but one who \ndropped all Language study at an early age and suffers with some appalling \ngrammar and, no doubt, use of some inappropriate word choices. \n \nI have yet to re-read the parts you mentioned but shall have a look when I get a chance. \n \nAnd I agree with you and others who took \"your blue Utrth\" as a manner of speech - as it well could be -I cannae deny it. \nAnd if he did mean \"your\" as in \"not mine\" it could have another number of interpretations and the leap to Inire is one I cannot justify yet(if ever). \nAnd, as I have a poor memory, more akin to the main dude from the soldier books - whose name escapes me - than Severian, I could \nwell be forming easily discredited theories.\n \nThough I am beginning to suspect Rudesind is indeed a Cacogen - and if what you say is true about only 3 Autarchs trying for the big job \nthen I am also beginning to suspect Rudesind may be the 'true' Inire possibly showing the picture for the third(italicized as in the text) time - a vision \nof Urth under a fully working sun. Inire may be working for Rudesind - or an active distraction - doing the dirty work etc.\nCould all be rubbish - I know not yet. The joy of having a poor memory is that you can spend a lot less on new books.\n \n\nEddy\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1D47A855-7360-457B-A8DB-C1770AD45432@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T13:52:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Monkey descriptions (those hand-like feet and apelike mannerisms) and a clear detachment from \"your Urth,\" makes the idea of Inire's curators as clones or cacogens quite tempting.\n\nJust Sayin'.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 27, 2010, at 9:03 AM, Edward cotton wrote:\nTo JD and others who have followed this thread.\n \nHello JD - aye, it is good to hear from a fellow newb and someone reading the books\n\nwith a relatively fresh pair of eyes. And I am glad you assumed I was a native speaker - as indeed I am - but one who\n\ndropped all Language study at an early age and suffers with some appalling\n\ngrammar and, no doubt, use of some inappropriate word choices.\n\n \n\nI have yet to re-read the parts you mentioned but shall have a look when I get a chance.\n\n \n\nAnd I agree with you and others who took \"your blue Utrth\" as a manner of speech - as it well could be -I cannae deny it.\n\nAnd if he did mean \"your\" as in \"not mine\" it could have another number of interpretations and the leap to Inire is one I cannot justify yet(if ever).\n\nAnd, as I have a poor memory, more akin to the main dude from the soldier books - whose name escapes me - than Severian, I could\n\nwell be forming easily discredited theories.\n\n \n\nThough I am beginning to suspect Rudesind is indeed a Cacogen - and if what you say is true about only 3 Autarchs trying for the big job\n\nthen I am also beginning to suspect Rudesind may be the 'true' Inire possibly showing the picture for the third(italicized as in the text) time - a vision\n\nof Urth under a fully working sun. Inire may be working for Rudesind - or an active distraction - doing the dirty work etc.\n\nCould all be rubbish - I know not yet. The joy of having a poor memory is that you can spend a lot less on new books.\n\n \nEddy\n\nVotre vie priv?e l'est-elle vraiment — Internet Explorer 8 vous prot?ge gratuitement\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4EE5B8.8060501@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T13:57:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<730AE2C19DF54346BB7492D935335293@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/27/2010 4:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nAlso, \"your blue Urth\" is ultimately the translator's choice of words,\nnot necessarily a literal translation of what Severian recorded. \"Your\n[item]\" is part of an English idiom that is popular among craftsmen who\nwork on other people's property, perhaps like an engineer who has been\nhired to improve an existing potato chip production line, and this has\nbecome a marketing tool where \"your\" addresses the audience even if they\ndon't own the item yet, and even if the crafter is promoting a recipe or\nabstract idea rather than a service." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Googling \"your basic\" yields 2 million + examples of this modest\nvariation, but the idiom is at least decades old; \"Your Show of Shows\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "debuted in 1950.\n\nThis use of \"your\" is common in Ireland, and has almost certainly been\nso for generations.. A very common version is \"your man\" meaning \"that\nman\", as in \"[Do you] see your man over there?\".\n\nOther versions use \"your\" in place of \"the\", as in \"Your frog, now, [ in\ncontrast to some previously mentioned creature] is a more amphibious\ntype of fellow\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's fascinating.\n\nIn isolation, it may not have been clear that my post refers to the \nidiom being of the English language in contrast to French or whatever \nother language with which Edward Cotton may be more familiar, rather \nthan of the English people." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4EE890.8010905@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T14:09:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<1D47A855-7360-457B-A8DB-C1770AD45432@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/27/2010 8:52 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nMonkey descriptions (those hand-like feet and apelike mannerisms) and a\nclear detachment from \"your Urth,\" makes the idea of Inire's curators as\nclones or cacogens quite tempting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inire's letter is written awfully small for a guy with foot-long hands." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T14:17:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C4EE890.8010905@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which only proves how cunning Inire's disguise is!\n\nOf course, it may be that I find your point convincing because we're\none entity. I wonder if I'm your clone, a different time-travel\niteration of you, or a long-lost twin, or you in disguise. Or I could\nbe an inhumu with a copy of your soul. Or another person altogether,\nbut possessed by a copy of your soul which had been uploaded into\nMainframe.\n\n...I may be leaving some possibilities out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/27/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/27/2010 8:52 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Monkey descriptions (those hand-like feet and apelike mannerisms) and a\nclear detachment from \"your Urth,\" makes the idea of Inire's curators as\nclones or cacogens quite tempting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Inire's letter is written awfully small for a guy with foot-long hands.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Edward cotton", "address": "severedda at hotmail.fr" }, "date": "2010-07-27T14:20:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<1D47A855-7360-457B-A8DB-C1770AD45432@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Following from my previous posts - maybe Rudesind is one of the few Cacogens who joined humanity and worked with the Autarchs over the years. \nAnd Father Inire is a catch all term for the intelligence gathering service - or members of (I seem to remember notes and/or reports being associated with Father Inire). \nRudesind, Autarch and 'Father Inire' plotting, manipulating and keeping things as they need to be. The Father, The Sun, and the Holy Ghost. I am ready for rotten tomatoes. \t\t \t \t\t \n_________________________________________________________________\nAllumez et ?teignez votre PC en un instant avec Windows 7 !\nhttp://clk.atdmt.com/FRM/go/238030931/direct/01/" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T14:20:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am also the less-turrets version of Josh, though. That would connect you two. Is that okay?\n\nI am also Dan'l's grandmother come again... as a man.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 27, 2010, at 10:17 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nWhich only proves how cunning Inire's disguise is!\n\nOf course, it may be that I find your point convincing because we're\none entity. I wonder if I'm your clone, a different time-travel\niteration of you, or a long-lost twin, or you in disguise. Or I could\nbe an inhumu with a copy of your soul. Or another person altogether,\nbut possessed by a copy of your soul which had been uploaded into\nMainframe.\n\n...I may be leaving some possibilities out.\n\nOn 7/27/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/27/2010 8:52 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Monkey descriptions (those hand-like feet and apelike mannerisms) and a\nclear detachment from \"your Urth,\" makes the idea of Inire's curators as\nclones or cacogens quite tempting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Inire's letter is written awfully small for a guy with foot-long hands.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T14:30:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possibly, though Severian seems to identify Inire as an individual on more than one occasion, calling him one of his few friends on Urth.\n\nI think there's something to the theory of the Curators, who show up where Inire may have some influence, being potentially otherworldly, or non-human. Ultan's library, the pinakotheken, the botanic gardens, etc.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 27, 2010, at 10:20 AM, Edward cotton wrote:\nFollowing from my previous posts - maybe Rudesind is one of the few Cacogens who joined humanity and worked with the Autarchs over the years.\n\nAnd Father Inire is a catch all term for the intelligence gathering service - or members of (I seem to remember notes and/or reports being associated with Father Inire). \n\nRudesind, Autarch and 'Father Inire' plotting, manipulating and keeping things as they need to be. The Father, The Sun, and the Holy Ghost. I am ready for rotten tomatoes.\n\n\nDe nouvelles Emoticones sur Messenger — T?l?chargez gratuitement les ?motic?nes Summer ! _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T14:31:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:20 AM, Edward cotton wrote:\n And Father Inire is a catch all term for the intelligence gathering\nservice - or members of (I seem to remember notes and/or reports being\nassociated with Father Inire).\n\nRudesind, Autarch and 'Father Inire' plotting, manipulating and keeping\nthings as they need to be. The Father, The Sun, and the Holy Ghost. I am\nready for rotten tomatoes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I have no citations handy, but Thecla and others seem to have met an\nindividual they believe to be Father Inire.\n\nMoreover, Severian in Urth seems to think Father Inire is a person, and he's\nbeen Autarch for some time then and has access to the memories of other\nAutarchs.\n\nFinally, you'd need to work pretty hard to convince me that in any Trinity\nparallel, Father Inire isn't the \"Father.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " ------------------------------\nDe nouvelles Emoticones sur Messenger — T?l?chargez gratuitement les\n?motic?nes Summer ! \n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<521708.29650.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T14:58:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C4EE5B8.8060501@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/27/2010 4:01 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nAlso, \"your blue Urth\" is ultimately the translator's choice of words,\nnot necessarily a literal translation of what Severian recorded." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think we should consider that--it allows us to ignore anything.\n\n\"Your" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[item]\" is part of an English idiom that is popular among craftsmen who\nwork on other people's property, perhaps like an engineer who has been\nhired to improve an existing potato chip production line, and this has\nbecome a marketing tool where \"your\" addresses the audience even if they\ndon't own the item yet, and even if the crafter is promoting a recipe or\nabstract idea rather than a service." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Googling \"your basic\" yields 2 million + examples of this modest\nvariation, but the idiom is at least decades old; \"Your Show of Shows\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "debuted in 1950.\n\nThis use of \"your\" is common in Ireland, and has almost certainly been\nso for generations.. A very common version is \"your man\" meaning \"that\nman\", as in \"[Do you] see your man over there?\".\n\nOther versions use \"your\" in place of \"the\", as in \"Your frog, now, [ in\ncontrast to some previously mentioned creature] is a more amphibious\ntype of fellow\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's been common in England for a long time too.\n\nHamlet: Your worm is your only emperor for diet: we fat all creatures else to \nfat us, and we fat ourselves for maggots: your fat king and your lean beggar is \nbut variable service, two dishes, but to one table: that's the end.\n\n/Hamlet/, IV 3.\n\nFirst Clown: Cudgel thy brains no more about it, for your dull ass will not mend \nhis pace with beating; and, whenyou are asked this question next, say 'a \ngrave-maker:' the houses that he makes last till doomsday.\n\nIbid., V 1.\n\nFirst Clown: Why, sir, his hide is so tanned with his trade, that he will keep \nout water a great while; and your water is a sore decayer of your whoreson dead \nbody.\n\nIbid.\n\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<343FBB48-915E-42F2-A8EA-83524E66F1E2@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T15:06:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<521708.29650.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 27, 2010, at 10:58 AM, Jerry Friedman wrote:\nThis use of \"your\" is common in Ireland, and has almost certainly been\nso for generations.. A very common version is \"your man\" meaning \"that\nman\", as in \"[Do you] see your man over there?\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is another line of thought that by Rudesind calling it \"your blue Urth,\" he may be foreshadowing that Severian will soon rule the world itself.\n\nJust a thought. It would mean he is in collusion with Inire, and it also reenforces the Severian prior being a wanderer of the corridor of time. Later in the story, doesn't he tell Rudesind to give his future self directions to the library if he comes by? If so, might that not be Rudesind relaying a message to a younger Severian, who was Autarch?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T15:11:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<343FBB48-915E-42F2-A8EA-83524E66F1E2@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n. It would mean he is in collusion with Inire, and it also reenforces the\nSeverian prior being a wanderer of the corridor of time. Later in the story,\ndoesn't he tell Rudesind to give his future self directions to the library\nif he comes by? If so, might that not be Rudesind relaying a message to a\nyounger Severian, who was Autarch?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like this, because it fits with what we know about Rudesind (he delivers\nmessages for Inire).\n\nI'm not sure that we *know *Severian was sending a message to his younger\nself. He really just says basically \"Well, send other boys along the same\nroute,\" which is consistent with him just telling Rudesind he did the right\nthing and to keep up the good work.\n\nBut that ties into my broader skepticism about the \"other\" Severian. We\ntreat the \"two Severian\" theory as canon, when really it comes from\nSeverian's own musings at the end of Citadel. I think some of the chief\nphenomena the theory was mean to explain (the tomb, Apu Punchau) are shown,\nto some extent, in Urth to be explainable by the time travel of a single\nSeverian.\n\nBut who knows." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...ryan\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C4EF867.3010602@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T15:16:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/27/2010 9:20 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI am also the less-turrets version of Josh, though." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are you calling him a naviscaput? And yourself a headless naviscaput?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5635A6B1-14B8-42F5-A768-C76A8DAB93E2@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T15:20:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C4EF867.3010602@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That would make me a girl owl? Headwig the Headless?\n\nNot okay.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 27, 2010, at 11:16 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/27/2010 9:20 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am also the less-turrets version of Josh, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you calling him a naviscaput? And yourself a headless naviscaput?\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T15:34:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, the two Severians seems fairly obvious to me. In the Atrium of Time, he overlaps himself in two times, from what I gathered. Here is what Severian as Autarch asks of Rudesind...\n\n\"We only want to say that if a young man with an errand comes past again while you are on your ladder, you are to send him to Master Ultan. That is our order.\"\n\nIt sort of means the story we've been told/sold is non-linear, and that the Severian at the end of Citadel exists before the Severian at the beginning of Shadow, no?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 27, 2010, at 11:11 AM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n. It would mean he is in collusion with Inire, and it also reenforces the Severian prior being a wanderer of the corridor of time. Later in the story, doesn't he tell Rudesind to give his future self directions to the library if he comes by? If so, might that not be Rudesind relaying a message to a younger Severian, who was Autarch?\n\n \nI like this, because it fits with what we know about Rudesind (he delivers messages for Inire).\n \nI'm not sure that we know Severian was sending a message to his younger self. He really just says basically \"Well, send other boys along the same route,\" which is consistent with him just telling Rudesind he did the right thing and to keep up the good work.\n \nBut that ties into my broader skepticism about the \"other\" Severian. We treat the \"two Severian\" theory as canon, when really it comes from Severian's own musings at the end of Citadel. I think some of the chief phenomena the theory was mean to explain (the tomb, Apu Punchau) are shown, to some extent, in Urth to be explainable by the time travel of a single Severian.\n \nBut who knows.\n \n \n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T15:48:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nNo, the two Severians seems fairly obvious to me. In the Atrium of Time, he\noverlaps himself in two times, from what I gathered. Here is what Severian\nas Autarch asks of Rudesind..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something weird happens in that scene. Whatever it is, it could be a local\neffect (it's the Atrium of Time) and it doesn't convince me that there are\ntwo different Severians rather than one Severian whose personal timeline is\nknotty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \"We only want to say that if a young man with an errand comes past again\nwhile you are on your ladder, you are to send him to Master Ultan. That is\nour order.\"\n\nIt sort of means the story we've been told/sold is non-linear, and that the\nSeverian at the end of Citadel exists before the Severian at the beginning\nof Shadow, no?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That seems like a gigantic leap. Rudesind remembers sending a younger\nSeverian to Master Ultan. Severian himself is asking that Rudesind do\nit \"again.\" Other than the hierodules, who live backwards, who else is at\nan earlier point in their personal timeline during the events at the end of\nCitadel?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " ...ryan\n\n\n On Jul 27, 2010, at 11:11 AM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n\n\nOn Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 11:06 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": ". It would mean he is in collusion with Inire, and it also reenforces the\nSeverian prior being a wanderer of the corridor of time. Later in the story,\ndoesn't he tell Rudesind to give his future self directions to the library\nif he comes by? If so, might that not be Rudesind relaying a message to a\nyounger Severian, who was Autarch?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like this, because it fits with what we know about Rudesind (he delivers\nmessages for Inire).\n\nI'm not sure that we *know *Severian was sending a message to his younger\nself. He really just says basically \"Well, send other boys along the same\nroute,\" which is consistent with him just telling Rudesind he did the right\nthing and to keep up the good work.\n\nBut that ties into my broader skepticism about the \"other\" Severian. We\ntreat the \"two Severian\" theory as canon, when really it comes from\nSeverian's own musings at the end of Citadel. I think some of the chief\nphenomena the theory was mean to explain (the tomb, Apu Punchau) are shown,\nto some extent, in Urth to be explainable by the time travel of a single\nSeverian.\n\nBut who knows." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "...ryan\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T16:13:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 27, 2010, at 11:48 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nOn Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 11:34 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nNo, the two Severians seems fairly obvious to me. In the Atrium of Time, he overlaps himself in two times, from what I gathered. Here is what Severian as Autarch asks of Rudesind...\n\n \n \nSomething weird happens in that scene. Whatever it is, it could be a local effect (it's the Atrium of Time) and it doesn't convince me that there are two different Severians rather than one Severian whose personal timeline is knotty. \n \n\"We only want to say that if a young man with an errand comes past again while you are on your ladder, you are to send him to Master Ultan. That is our order.\"\n\nIt sort of means the story we've been told/sold is non-linear, and that the Severian at the end of Citadel exists before the Severian at the beginning of Shadow, no?\n\n \n \nThat seems like a gigantic leap. Rudesind remembers sending a younger Severian to Master Ultan. Severian himself is asking that Rudesind do it \"again.\" Other than the hierodules, who live backwards, who else is at an earlier point in their personal timeline during the events at the end of Citadel?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why would Severian ask Rudesind to do that? Why would that be all he asks of Rudesind before dismissing him? And after the diatribe about how Severian is: \"every boy that's ever been here, and I've heard stories put on you that belong to men that was old when I was just a boy, and I've heard about things I did myself, seventy years ago.\"\n\nSo it's just a random request to send some young man on an errand while Rudesind is on his ladder to Ultan?\n\nHonestly. Why?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T16:28:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 12:13 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n\n\nWhy would Severian ask Rudesind to do that? Why would that be all he asks\nof Rudesind before dismissing him? And after the diatribe about how Severian\nis: \"every boy that's ever been here, and I've heard stories put on you that\nbelong to men that was old when I was just a boy, and I've heard about\nthings I did myself, seventy years ago.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " So it's just a random request to send some young man on an errand while\nRudesind is on his ladder to Ultan?\n\nHonestly. Why?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I said, Severian and Rudesind have just spoken about the time Rudesind\nsent Severian to see Ultan. It is in Severian's past, and in Rudesind's\npast. They both remember it. They discuss it. Severian asks why Rudesind\nsent Severian to see Ultan. Rudesind explains, accepts the title \"advocate\nfor the dead,\" (which is, unless I am very much mistaken, a Chesteron\nreference). Severian says, essentially, \"Very well. Carry on\"--indicating\nthat he is grateful that he was sent to Ultan.\n\nIt may be that there's more to it than that, but why does there have to be?\n\nMoreover, if it is a message to a younger Severian, why does Rudesind\nremember doing it the first time?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " ...ryan\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T16:41:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn- Why would Severian ask Rudesind to do that? Why would that \nbe all he asks of Rudesind before dismissing him?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think my interpretation is that Severian, at that point, doesn't know\nif he will be successful in bringing the New Sun. If he is not perhaps\nthe next torturer boy should also be shown how the sun ought to look via\nthe painting, to give him at least as good a chance as Severian for success." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am also the less-turrets version of Josh" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh. Pun on Tourette's I assume? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<98133C48-C693-4981-ADF3-CA726405BA02@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T16:46:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 27, 2010, at 12:41 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nRyan Dunn- Why would Severian ask Rudesind to do that? Why would that \nbe all he asks of Rudesind before dismissing him?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think my interpretation is that Severian, at that point, doesn't know\nif he will be successful in bringing the New Sun. If he is not perhaps\nthe next torturer boy should also be shown how the sun ought to look via\nthe painting, to give him at least as good a chance as Severian for success." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't buy it. Severian and Inire walk the corridors of time, so I think he is laying the seeds for a time loop. Perhaps Rudesind, like the botanic, the mirrors, and the atrium of time, are ageless/timeless/infinite.\n\nWhy would the next likely autarch be another torturer's apprentice with an errand while Rudesind is on that ladder?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am also the less-turrets version of Josh" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Heh. Pun on Tourette's I assume? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A grammatical double entendre, why not?\n\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T16:49:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<98133C48-C693-4981-ADF3-CA726405BA02@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n\nI don't buy it. Severian and Inire walk the corridors of time, so I think\nhe is laying the seeds for a time loop. Perhaps Rudesind, like the botanic,\nthe mirrors, and the atrium of time, are ageless/timeless/infinite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, at least you're honest. You'd rather accept that multiple characters\nwith no proven weird abilities are eternal than give up a theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would the next likely autarch be another torturer's apprentice with an\nerrand while Rudesind is on that ladder?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good Lord, you're literal.\n\n\"Hey Rudesind, next time a young man like me comes by while you're on the\nladder, please send him to Ultan like you did for me.\"\n\nmeans\n\n\"Ignore the young man if he's not like me, or if you're not on the\nladder--we're both time-travellers and I'm setting up an infinite loop\"\n\nrather than\n\n\"Thank you. I appreciated it. The thanks I ask is that you keep doing what\nyou did.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I am also the less-turrets version of Josh" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Heh. Pun on Tourette's I assume?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A grammatical double entendre, why not?\n\n\n...ryan\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<681ECB69-9FC4-4925-BB5F-4BAD08CFD12F@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T17:02:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 27, 2010, at 12:49 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nWell, at least you're honest. You'd rather accept that multiple characters with no proven weird abilities are eternal than give up a theory.\n \nWhy would the next likely autarch be another torturer's apprentice with an errand while Rudesind is on that ladder?\nGood Lord, you're literal.\n \n\"Hey Rudesind, next time a young man like me comes by while you're on the ladder, please send him to Ultan like you did for me.\"\n \nmeans\n \n\"Ignore the young man if he's not like me, or if you're not on the ladder--we're both time-travellers and I'm setting up an infinite loop\"\n \nrather than\n \n\"Thank you. I appreciated it. The thanks I ask is that you keep doing what you did.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I still don't know why that specifically is what Severian would ask? Why not, hey clean up the moon guy, i like that picture. Or, hey, if you see that Racho dweeb, give him a kick in the pants. Or hey, bring me a Fechin, he's good.\n\nRudesind's master is Inire, and Inire is a time traveler. And Rudesind is unbelievably ancient, and it seem time acts differently upon him.\n\nPlus, the time loop thing dovetails in with Severian at the end, standing where Severian the apprentice stood in the Atrium of Time, and re-reading to find out the following...\n\n\"There is really no describing the sensation of being watched. I have heard it called a prickling at the back of the neck, and even a consciousness of eyes that seem to float in darkness, but it is neither - at least, not for me. It is something akin to a sourceless embarrassment, coupled with the feeling that I must not turn around, because to turn will be to appear a fool, answering the promptings of baseless intuition. Eventually, of course, one does. I turned with the vague impression that someone had followed me through the hole at the base of the dial.\"\n\nMy theory is textually founded, not THAT crazy, is it?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T17:04:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<681ECB69-9FC4-4925-BB5F-4BAD08CFD12F@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nRudesind's master is Inire, and Inire is a time traveler." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see two assertions here with no particular textual support for either.\n\nI'm just sayin'." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T17:06:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<681ECB69-9FC4-4925-BB5F-4BAD08CFD12F@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 1:02 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n\nI still don't know why that specifically is what Severian would ask? Why\nnot, hey clean up the moon guy, i like that picture. Or, hey, if you see\nthat Racho dweeb, give him a kick in the pants. Or hey, bring me a Fechin,\nhe's good." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian's Autarch. He can decorate his place any time. He and Rudesind\nhave been talking about the time they met before, and Severian thanks him.\nThat's it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Rudesind's master is Inire, and Inire is a time traveler. And Rudesind is\nunbelievably ancient, and it seem time acts differently upon him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It does? How? Without making reference to another speculation, please,\nshow me how in the text time acts differently on Rudesind, and how he is\n\"unbelievably ancient\" rather than \"old.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Plus, the time loop thing dovetails in with Severian at the end, standing\nwhere Severian the apprentice stood in the Atrium of Time, and re-reading to\nfind out the following...\n\n\"There is really no describing the sensation of being watched. I have heard\nit called a prickling at the back of the neck, and even a consciousness\nof eyes that seem to float in darkness, but it is neither - at least, not\nfor me. It is something akin to a sourceless embarrassment, coupled with\nthe feeling that I must not turn around, because to turn will be to appear a\nfool, answering the promptings of baseless intuition. Eventually, of\ncourse, one does. I turned with the vague impression that someone had\nfollowed me through the hole at the base of the dial.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no doubt that Severian subscribes to the two-Severians theory at\nthe end of Citadel. There's no need to read tea-leaves on it--he comes out\nand says he believes in it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " My theory is textually founded, not THAT crazy, is it?\n\n...ryan\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T17:09:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually, thanks.\n\nRudesind delivers a message for Inire and Severian I think says that Inire\nis Rudesind's master. So there's good reason to believe that, at least.\n\nInire makes clever devices with mirrors which can be used to travel through\nspace and maybe outside the universe. It's a bit of a leap to call him a\n\"time traveller,\" but not much--the mirrors could be used that way and if\nInire's a hierodul then he might be a time traveller in the sense that F, B,\nand O are--i.e., living backwards (like Merlin) and maybe \"skipping\" big\nchunks of time.\n\nI see no reason to accept as a premise the idea that Inire is capable of\nSev-as-White-Fountain walks in the Corridors of Time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rudesind's master is Inire, and Inire is a time traveler." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see two assertions here with no particular textual support for either.\n\nI'm just sayin'.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1825100887c4e40055ec2ce1e2fc3074.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T17:25:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So it's just a random request to send some young man on an errand while\nRudesind is on his ladder to Ultan?\n\nHonestly. Why?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It sounds to me like Sev is getting a little too full of himself; the\nheady influx of power and wisdom and confidence from his new state of\nbeing leads him to hastily decide he has it all figured out.\n\nAnd maybe he does. If the Frankenstein story echoes backward in time, why\nnot the order of an Autarch? You can't be too careful." } ] }, { "message_id": "<865729C8-CE61-49AE-ABFA-AA3776BC9B25@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T17:27:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 27, 2010, at 1:04 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rudesind's master is Inire, and Inire is a time traveler." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see two assertions here with no particular textual support for either.\n\nI'm just sayin'.\n\n-- \nDan'l Danehy-Oakes" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "INIRE AS RUDESIND'S MASTER:\n\n\"Rudesind, we already know the answers to the question you think we are going to ask. We know your master is what the people call a cacogen, and that for whatever reason, he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely with humanity, remaining on Urth as a human being.\"\n\n\nINIRE AS TIME TRAVELER:\n\nAre cacogens immortal? If so, then my theory may be unfounded. But...\n\n\"Have you heard of the mirrors of Father Inire? Do you know how they work?\"\n\n\"I've heard of Father Inire's Mirror, but I couldn't tell you where I heard about it. You're supposed to be able to step into it, like you'd step into a doorway, and step out on a star. I don't think it's real.\"\n\n\"The mirrors are real. I've seen them. Up until now I always thought of them in much the same way you did as if they were a ship, but much faster. Now I'm not nearly so sure. Anyway, a certain friend of mine stepped between those mirrors and vanished. I was watching him. It was no trick and no superstition; he went wherever the mirrors take you.\"\n\nAre we to assume Inire built these mirrors that take you to other places (and times from what I can gather) yet has never mastered them?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5AEF4460-86B9-45ED-85D8-E48FA86CB767@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T17:30:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 27, 2010, at 1:09 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nActually, thanks.\n \nRudesind delivers a message for Inire and Severian I think says that Inire is Rudesind's master. So there's good reason to believe that, at least.\n \nInire makes clever devices with mirrors which can be used to travel through space and maybe outside the universe. It's a bit of a leap to call him a \"time traveller,\" but not much--the mirrors could be used that way and if Inire's a hierodul then he might be a time traveller in the sense that F, B, and O are--i.e., living backwards (like Merlin) and maybe \"skipping\" big chunks of time.\n \nI see no reason to accept as a premise the idea that Inire is capable of Sev-as-White-Fountain walks in the Corridors of Time.\nOn Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 1:04 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rudesind's master is Inire, and Inire is a time traveler." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see two assertions here with no particular textual support for either.\n\nI'm just sayin'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "MORE PROOF INIRE IS RUDESIND'S MASTER:\n\n\"The old Autarch told us you were his sentinel in the House Absolute, and now we know you're a servant of Father Inire's.\"\n\"I am,\" the old man said. \"I have that honor, and it's his letter I carry.\"\n\n.\n\nIs this obviously still a question, Dan'l? I thought this was accepted as truth. I could have missed something however.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T17:30:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<865729C8-CE61-49AE-ABFA-AA3776BC9B25@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, Inere as Rudesind's master is clear. But:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nAre we to assume Inire built these mirrors that take you to other places (and times from what I can gather) yet has never mastered them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see Inire as a dabbler in these mirrors, not their master." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<0EB4EDA9-749B-48BB-A522-0BAC3359C712@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T17:36:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 27, 2010, at 1:30 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOK, Inere as Rudesind's master is clear. But:\n\nOn Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are we to assume Inire built these mirrors that take you to other places (and times from what I can gather) yet has never mastered them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see Inire as a dabbler in these mirrors, not their master." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So an immortal cacogen, or able to grow to thousands of years old? It is thought he has been viziers to all autarchs past, no? Isn't time traveling just as viable in a microcosm built by Wolfe wherein time travel exists in very visible ways between Tzdakiel's ship, the Botanical Gardens, Apu Punchau, etc.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T17:48:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<0EB4EDA9-749B-48BB-A522-0BAC3359C712@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:36 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nSo an immortal cacogen, or able to grow to thousands of years old?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So it would seem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is thought he has been viziers to all autarchs past, no?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Isn't time traveling just as viable in a microcosm built by Wolfe wherein\ntime travel exists in very visible ways between Tzdakiel's ship, the\nBotanical Gardens, Apu Punchau, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again, yes, it is viable. I just don't see it. (I also don't see the immense\nSeverian family-trees being built elsewhere around here.)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T18:10:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian encounters three people who have facility with mirrors, Jonas,\nthe old Autarch and Hethor. Severian encounters persons resembling Jonas\nand Hethor when he goes on Tzadkiel's ship. The old Autarch was also on \nthat ship.\n \nThis suggests the other person with mirror facility, (as described by Thecla), \nFather Inire, has some association with this ship. This line- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely with \nhumanity, remaining on Urth as a human being.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "seems to suggest Inire is not human but capable of changing his form. \nSeverian's comment regarding Tzadkiel's portal suggests that Father Inire's\nversions are similar but inferior. So much to suggest Inire is a fallen form\nof Tzadkiel.\n \nIsangoma in the Jungle Hut, with his metallic skin and resemblance to the Jungle\nGuide seems a prime candidate to be a version of Inire (lots of monkeys in that\nscene btw). The Bible story mentioning Mt Nebo suggests to me that, like Moses,\nFather Inire may serve as guide to the chosen people but due to his disobedience, \nis not able to enter the Promised Land with them.\n \nI don't know if the Promised Land refers to Ushas or the Ship and/or Yesod but either\nway, it doesn't appear Father Inire is able to go to any of them. Thus I could see\nthe possibility that he can use the mirrors for others without being able to use \nthem himself. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T18:26:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:02 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Rudesind's master is Inire, and Inire is a time traveler." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see two assertions here with no particular textual support for either." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rudesind and the Old Autarch both say that Inire stationed Rudesind in the\nHouse Absolute. Rudesind later says Inire is his master, and Severian\nspeaks as if his inherited memories confirm that Inire also had Rudesind\nstationed in the Citadel.\n\n\nInire is said to have built the Botanic Gardens. The Botanic Gardens are\nlarger on the inside than out, and visitors are able to see 20th century\nvintage airplanes flying overhead from within." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T18:27:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK, Inire as Rudesind's master is clear." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure it is as clear as all that. The old Autarch served\nas Third Bursar. Captain Tzadkiel served as a sailor on his ship.\nSeverian served as one of his own army commanders. There is ample\nprecedent that a person can serve as their own master in different\nroles in this story. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T18:33:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These disguises work great when you're dealing with someone who never met\nthe real you.\n\nSeverian has the memories of two people who have met Inire, one countless\ntimes, when he meets Rudesind the second time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 2:27 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "OK, Inire as Rudesind's master is clear." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure it is as clear as all that. The old Autarch served\nas Third Bursar. Captain Tzadkiel served as a sailor on his ship.\nSeverian served as one of his own army commanders. There is ample\nprecedent that a person can serve as their own master in different\nroles in this story.\n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail has tools for the New Busy. Search, chat and e-mail from your\ninbox.\n\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_1\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-27T19:38:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These disguises work great when you're dealing with someone who never met\nthe real you." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nTrue, Severian is able to identify the old Autarch in a couple guises. \n \nStill, perhaps an alien who has chosen to live on Urth as a human is a bit\nbetter at disguise than a human. Especially in a story written by an author\nwho invented Tzadkiel, Shadow Children and Inhumi. \n \nIf there is a more clear, texually supported explanation for the \"real\" nature\nof Father Inire I am interested in hearing it.\n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C50CDC0.7080202@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-29T00:39:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Furthermore, if Inire remains on Urth \"as a human being\" he \ncan't time-travel. Or space-travel.\n\nHe has chosen to remain on Urth.\n\nAs a human being." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nSeverian encounters three people who have facility with mirrors, Jonas,\nthe old Autarch and Hethor. Severian encounters persons resembling Jonas\nand Hethor when he goes on Tzadkiel's ship. The old Autarch was also on \nthat ship.\n \nThis suggests the other person with mirror facility, (as described by Thecla), \nFather Inire, has some association with this ship. This line- \n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely with \nhumanity, remaining on Urth as a human being.\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "seems to suggest Inire is not human but capable of changing his form. \nSeverian's comment regarding Tzadkiel's portal suggests that Father Inire's\nversions are similar but inferior. So much to suggest Inire is a fallen form\nof Tzadkiel.\n \nIsangoma in the Jungle Hut, with his metallic skin and resemblance to the Jungle\nGuide seems a prime candidate to be a version of Inire (lots of monkeys in that\nscene btw). The Bible story mentioning Mt Nebo suggests to me that, like Moses,\nFather Inire may serve as guide to the chosen people but due to his disobedience, \nis not able to enter the Promised Land with them.\n \nI don't know if the Promised Land refers to Ushas or the Ship and/or Yesod but either\nway, it doesn't appear Father Inire is able to go to any of them. Thus I could see\nthe possibility that he can use the mirrors for others without being able to use \nthem himself. \t\t \t \t\t \n_________________________________________________________________\nHotmail is redefining busy with tools for the New Busy. Get more from your inbox.\nhttp://www.windowslive.com/campaign/thenewbusy?ocid=PID28326::T:WLMTAGL:ON:WL:en-US:WM_HMP:042010_2\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<818476.35138.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T05:00:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C50CDC0.7080202@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nSeverian encounters three people who have facility with mirrors, Jonas,\nthe old Autarch and Hethor. Severian encounters persons resembling Jonas\nand Hethor when he goes on Tzadkiel's ship. The old Autarch was also on that \nship.\n This suggests the other person with mirror facility, (as described by Thecla), \nFather Inire, has some association with this ship. This line- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely with \nhumanity, remaining on Urth as a human being.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "seems to suggest Inire is not human but capable of changing his form." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I too agree with this.\n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Isangoma in the Jungle Hut, with his metallic skin and resemblance to the \nJungle\nGuide seems a prime candidate to be a version of Inire (lots of monkeys in \nthat\nscene btw)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What metallic skin? I admit I'm tired, so I may have missed something.\n\nIsangoma is clearly athletic, with his \"sinewy frame\", capable of \"leaping up\" \nfrom a crouch and posing, perhaps for some time, in the attitude of a \nspear-fisherman leaning over a pool. He doesn't sound much like Inire, who's \n\"bent almost double\" in \"The Cat\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Bible story mentioning Mt Nebo suggests to me that, like Moses,\nFather Inire may serve as guide to the chosen people but due to his \ndisobedience, is not able to enter the Promised Land with them.\n I don't know if the Promised Land refers to Ushas or the Ship and/or Yesod but \neither\nway, it doesn't appear Father Inire is able to go to any of them. Thus I could \nsee\nthe possibility that he can use the mirrors for others without being able to \nuse them himself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you want to connect the Moses reference to Father Inire, he's the subject of \nthe previous chapter. He doesn't have to be Isangoma.\n\nBy the way, someone said a day or two ago that O., F., and B. speak in blank \nverse. In BotNS, only Famulimus does, as far as I can see.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51C6DB.3050607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-29T18:22:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<818476.35138.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I forget where Wolfe discusses it. I thought 2 of them spoke in blank \nverse.\n\nEither way, Wolfe puts much thought into his dialog: diction, \nvocabulary, rhythm, colloquialisms. His characters, as Shakespeare put \nit somewhere, \"unfold themselves\" through speech. By their speech ye may \nknow them, every time. Except when they fake another's.\n\nWe disagree on the meaning of\n\n\"he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely with humanity, remaining on Urth as a human being.\"\n\nThis is like reading a metaphor comparing a woman's head to a mason's \nhammer as implying that her head is made of metal. Such a person has \nmerely given up all his rights and powers as a cacogen; he has not \nactually chosen a new form. However, since the analogy seems to be to \nfallen angels, I guess the loss of wings meets both criteria without \ncontradiction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian encounters three people who have facility with mirrors, Jonas,\nthe old Autarch and Hethor. Severian encounters persons resembling Jonas\nand Hethor when he goes on Tzadkiel's ship. The old Autarch was also on that \nship.\n This suggests the other person with mirror facility, (as described by Thecla), \nFather Inire, has some association with this ship. This line- \n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely with \nhumanity, remaining on Urth as a human being.\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "seems to suggest Inire is not human but capable of changing his form.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I too agree with this.\n\n...\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Isangoma in the Jungle Hut, with his metallic skin and resemblance to the \nJungle\nGuide seems a prime candidate to be a version of Inire (lots of monkeys in \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "scene btw).\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What metallic skin? I admit I'm tired, so I may have missed something.\n\nIsangoma is clearly athletic, with his \"sinewy frame\", capable of \"leaping up\" \nfrom a crouch and posing, perhaps for some time, in the attitude of a \nspear-fisherman leaning over a pool. He doesn't sound much like Inire, who's \n\"bent almost double\" in \"The Cat\".\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Bible story mentioning Mt Nebo suggests to me that, like Moses,\nFather Inire may serve as guide to the chosen people but due to his \ndisobedience, is not able to enter the Promised Land with them.\n I don't know if the Promised Land refers to Ushas or the Ship and/or Yesod but \neither\nway, it doesn't appear Father Inire is able to go to any of them. Thus I could \nsee\nthe possibility that he can use the mirrors for others without being able to \nuse them himself.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you want to connect the Moses reference to Father Inire, he's the subject of \nthe previous chapter. He doesn't have to be Isangoma.\n\nBy the way, someone said a day or two ago that O., F., and B. speak in blank \nverse. In BotNS, only Famulimus does, as far as I can see.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51CF1F.6020505@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T18:57:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C51C6DB.3050607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/29/2010 1:22 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI forget where Wolfe discusses it. I thought 2 of them spoke in blank\nverse.\n\nEither way, Wolfe puts much thought into his dialog: diction,\nvocabulary, rhythm, colloquialisms. His characters, as Shakespeare put\nit somewhere, \"unfold themselves\" through speech. By their speech ye may\nknow them, every time. Except when they fake another's.\n\nWe disagree on the meaning of\n\n\"he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely with\nhumanity, remaining on Urth as a human being.\"\n\nThis is like reading a metaphor comparing a woman's head to a mason's\nhammer as implying that her head is made of metal. Such a person has\nmerely given up all his rights and powers as a cacogen; he has not\nactually chosen a new form. However, since the analogy seems to be to\nfallen angels, I guess the loss of wings meets both criteria without\ncontradiction." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How does that work? I don't see losing the wings would be equivalent to \ngaining mortal flesh." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51D272.4040405@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-29T19:11:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C51CF1F.6020505@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is a poorly understood phenomenon, and I do not pretend to expertise \non the subject.\n\nI seem to recall there was a bad movie about it once ... perhaps angels \ntrade wings for genitals when that happens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/29/2010 1:22 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I forget where Wolfe discusses it. I thought 2 of them spoke in blank\nverse.\n\nEither way, Wolfe puts much thought into his dialog: diction,\nvocabulary, rhythm, colloquialisms. His characters, as Shakespeare put\nit somewhere, \"unfold themselves\" through speech. By their speech ye may\nknow them, every time. Except when they fake another's.\n\nWe disagree on the meaning of\n\n\"he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely with\nhumanity, remaining on Urth as a human being.\"\n\nThis is like reading a metaphor comparing a woman's head to a mason's\nhammer as implying that her head is made of metal. Such a person has\nmerely given up all his rights and powers as a cacogen; he has not\nactually chosen a new form. However, since the analogy seems to be to\nfallen angels, I guess the loss of wings meets both criteria without\ncontradiction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How does that work? I don't see losing the wings would be equivalent \nto gaining mortal flesh." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51DF2A.1070202@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T20:06:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C51D272.4040405@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/29/2010 2:11 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt is a poorly understood phenomenon, and I do not pretend to expertise\non the subject.\n\nI seem to recall there was a bad movie about it once ... perhaps angels\ntrade wings for genitals when that happens." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was kind of in to it until they stole his shoes. \"Wait...the shoes \nalso fell from grace?\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C51E0A3.2080005@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-29T20:12:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C51DF2A.1070202@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait, you know the movie?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/29/2010 2:11 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It is a poorly understood phenomenon, and I do not pretend to expertise\non the subject.\n\nI seem to recall there was a bad movie about it once ... perhaps angels\ntrade wings for genitals when that happens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was kind of in to it until they stole his shoes. \"Wait...the shoes \nalso fell from grace?\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T20:14:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C51CF1F.6020505@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Doesn't the cumaen shed her face at some point to show the reptilian mask beneath? Isn't the Cumaen a cacogens also? Severian compares Inire to her if I recall.\n\nAlso, the way Wolfe wrote the description of Agia's head hitting the stone definitely suggested \"subtle clue\" more than \"bejeweled similie\" when I read it. But that's just my opinion.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 29, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/29/2010 1:22 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I forget where Wolfe discusses it. I thought 2 of them spoke in blank\nverse.\n\nEither way, Wolfe puts much thought into his dialog: diction,\nvocabulary, rhythm, colloquialisms. His characters, as Shakespeare put\nit somewhere, \"unfold themselves\" through speech. By their speech ye may\nknow them, every time. Except when they fake another's.\n\nWe disagree on the meaning of\n\n\"he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely with\nhumanity, remaining on Urth as a human being.\"\n\nThis is like reading a metaphor comparing a woman's head to a mason's\nhammer as implying that her head is made of metal. Such a person has\nmerely given up all his rights and powers as a cacogen; he has not\nactually chosen a new form. However, since the analogy seems to be to\nfallen angels, I guess the loss of wings meets both criteria without\ncontradiction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How does that work? I don't see losing the wings would be equivalent to gaining mortal flesh.\n\n-- \nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<26d167ffad6a1eff01b5dd6e4a099d93.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T20:44:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Doesn't the cumaen shed her face at some point to show the reptilian mask\nbeneath? Isn't the Cumaen a cacogens also? Severian compares Inire to her\nif I recall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She appears as a clump of many serpents to Severian's second sight, the\nway Dr Talos's face looks like a stufffed fox's. She doesn't actually\nunmask, other than sword-swallowing the rod that should be too big for a\nhuman being to do so. The rod remains visible in the swarm, making a kind\nof living caduceus, or a kind of fasces or post-fasces.\n\nThere are a couple of constellation serpents mentioned, IIRC, and maybe a\nsimile with a stream or river.\n\nI think Abaia counts as a serpent in the same figurative way dragons are\ncalled serpents and worms, plus rivers are serpentine and Maxellendis'\nuncle describes the commanding voice coming from the river itself.\n\nThat last related tale puzzles me. The very large, very pale \"pandours\"\nsuggest armed and armored siblings of Idas. But why are they being\nsmuggled on a boat? Are the scorpions and voulges too heavy to swim with?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T20:46:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C51E0A3.2080005@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wait, you know the movie?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The one I'm thinking of is _City of Angels_ with Meg Ryan and Lucas Cage,\nand it's a remake of a German film, _Wings of Desire_." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T21:04:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<26d167ffad6a1eff01b5dd6e4a099d93.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The ocean is referred to as the \"world-river\" Oroborous.\n\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Thu, Jul 29, 2010 at 3:44 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDoesn't the cumaen shed her face at some point to show the reptilian mask\nbeneath? Isn't the Cumaen a cacogens also? Severian compares Inire to her\nif I recall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She appears as a clump of many serpents to Severian's second sight, the\nway Dr Talos's face looks like a stufffed fox's. She doesn't actually\nunmask, other than sword-swallowing the rod that should be too big for a\nhuman being to do so. The rod remains visible in the swarm, making a kind\nof living caduceus, or a kind of fasces or post-fasces.\n\nThere are a couple of constellation serpents mentioned, IIRC, and maybe a\nsimile with a stream or river.\n\nI think Abaia counts as a serpent in the same figurative way dragons are\ncalled serpents and worms, plus rivers are serpentine and Maxellendis'\nuncle describes the commanding voice coming from the river itself.\n\nThat last related tale puzzles me. The very large, very pale \"pandours\"\nsuggest armed and armored siblings of Idas. But why are they being\nsmuggled on a boat? Are the scorpions and voulges too heavy to swim with?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5200E9.2060708@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-29T22:30:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (29-07-2010 21:46):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Wait, you know the movie?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The one I'm thinking of is _City of Angels_ with Meg Ryan and Lucas Cage,\nand it's a remake of a German film, _Wings of Desire_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Were the ottomans a remake of the byzantines?\n\n'Ihr w?hnt uns in weiter Ferne, doch sind wir so nah' must be one of the \nmost beautiful lines I've ever seen in a movie." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T00:32:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 29, 2010, at 3:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nWait, you know the movie?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The one I'm thinking of is _City of Angels_ with Meg Ryan and Lucas Cage,\nand it's a remake of a German film, _Wings of Desire_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh, man. I haven't thought of _Wings of Desire_ for a long time, but I loved that film.\n\nMe, I was thinking of _Dogma_.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T01:12:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 29, 2010, at 3:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wait, you know the movie?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The one I'm thinking of is _City of Angels_ with Meg Ryan and Lucas\nCage,\nand it's a remake of a German film, _Wings of Desire_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, man. I haven't thought of _Wings of Desire_ for a long time, but I\nloved that film.\n\nMe, I was thinking of _Dogma_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't think it was necessary for them to become mortal to partake of\nthe plenary indulgence, but it would have been kind of futile trying to\nstop transcendent spirits. And there never was an explanation of why\nLoki and Bartleby wanted to go back to Heaven without repenting - I\nsuppose that Jesus did not die to save fallen angels from sin.\n\nWhile we are on the subject of movies about the more ineffable Christian\nspirituality, I recommend netflixing _The Rapture_. As far as I know, it's\nthe only R-rated biblical epic and is one of the few treatments of\ntheodicy that can be considered even-handed without being (too) ambiguous\nor noncommittal." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T04:56:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- She [the Cumaean] appears as a clump of many serpents to Severian's\nsecond sight, the way Dr Talos's face looks like a stufffed fox's. She doesn't actually\nunmask, other than sword-swallowing the rod that should be too big for a\nhuman being to do so. The rod remains visible in the swarm, making a kind\nof living caduceus," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think it is a single snake-like thing which extends to nether-dimensions; no visible head. \nThe \"many\" are faces which form the pattern on the \"reptile's\" back \"the eyes of each face \nseemed lost in rapture\".\n \nI absolutely agree on the caduceus reference. I can't decide if Wolfe is approving or \ndisapproving of modern medicine's symbolic nods to its pagan roots. (including the Hippocratic \nOath which starts- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I swear by Apollo, the healer, Asclepius, Hygieia, and Panacea, and I take to witness all \nthe gods, all the goddesses, to....)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \n \nTo speculate further, I do think the witches serve, in some manner, in a medical capacity for\nsome members of the Commonwealth. There are a few bits of evidence that witches are involved \nin the whole khaibit-blood sharing process used by exultant women. \n \nThe Cumaean shows an obsession with resurrection of the dead and I have a suspicion that she, \nlike Inire, takes on a few other guises in the story. Hers serve her in the quest to winnow the\nsecret of true resurrection from Severian; a skill even Tzadkiel does not possess.\n \nOne is the old leech. He (she) tells Severian that a person of his great skill is working with \nVodalus for an ulterior motive. \n \nLeech- \"there is nowhere a man in my profession can learn as I learn here.\"\n \nSeverian- \"you mean the eating of the dead?\"\n \nLeech- \"No, no. Learned men- particularly of my profession- practice that everywhere....The \nknowledge I seek cannot be learned in that way, since none of the recently dead possessed it,\nand perhaps no one has ever possessed it\". We are never told what the Leech is actually \ntrying to learn but I can guess and also guess who he/she is hoping to learn it from.\n \nThe other possible Cumaean guise is Ceryx, from the distant past, also obsessed with raising\nthe dead, also incapable of Severian's true version of it and insanely jealous as a result.\n \nI see the seance scene with Severian, the Cumaean and the witches as a strategem aimed at \nSeverian all along, not Apu Punchau. If Jolenta had been a witch it might have been her they\nwere really trying to resurrect via Severian. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<380300.64462.qm@smtp822.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2010-07-30T08:00:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 01:32 30/07/2010, Adam wrote:\nOn Jul 29, 2010, at 3:46 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wait, you know the movie?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The one I'm thinking of is _City of Angels_ with Meg Ryan and Lucas Cage,\nand it's a remake of a German film, _Wings of Desire_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oh, man. I haven't thought of _Wings of Desire_ for a long time, \nbut I loved that film.\n\nMe, I was thinking of _Dogma_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking of 'It's a Wonderful Life', I must admit.\n\nWhich of these three/four films is more likely to be dear to Wolfe's \nheart, would we imagine?\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C52BBB0.3020102@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T11:46:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/29/2010 11:56 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThe Cumaean shows an obsession with resurrection of the dead and I have a suspicion that she,\nlike Inire, takes on a few other guises in the story. Hers serve her in the quest to winnow the\nsecret of true resurrection from Severian; a skill even Tzadkiel does not possess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it's a mistake to strongly link the Cumaean to the leech or \nCeryx on the basis of their resurrection fixation - essentially \n*everyone* and *everything* in the BOTNS - including the title! - is \nconnected to death and resurrection in one way or another half-dozen. \nPersonal resurrection, the resurrection of habits and customs, of races, \nand of Urth herself.\n\nIt might be shorter to list the elements that *aren't* about \nresurrection......I can't think of any off-hand." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3E7FC8CC-1684-4628-8313-CBA2FEFCCAD7@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T12:35:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C52BBB0.3020102@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The journeymen's boots mayhap? \n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 30, 2010, at 7:46 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nIt might be shorter to list the elements that *aren't* about resurrection......I can't think of any off-hand." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T15:16:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<3E7FC8CC-1684-4628-8313-CBA2FEFCCAD7@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- I think it's a mistake to strongly link the Cumaean to the leech or \nCeryx on the basis of their resurrection fixation - essentially *everyone* and \n*everything* in the BOTNS - including the title! - is connected to death and \nresurrection in one way or another half-dozen. Personal resurrection, the \nresurrection of habits and customs, of races, and of Urth herself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nPerhaps I should have been more clear. I perceive that the story presents two\nsorts of resurrection. One is pure and good and is associated with Pelerines and\ngems and white (or is it doppler blue?) light and angels and, perhaps, faith.\n \nThe other is dark and evil and associated with secret knowledge, potions and \nseances and human body experimentation and so on. I think we are expected to\nidentify which approach to resurrection the various characters in BotNS gravitate\ntoward and to recognize the connections. The Cumaean and witches are associated\nwith Vodalus, as is the Old Leech. We must wonder about the source of the old'\nAutarch's alzabo-like pharmacon, also. Baldanders and Typhon appear to rely on\nmachinery rather than potions and witchcraft to achieve their biological goals\nbut it seems to be in the same sort of vein of evil to me.\n \nI don't know if this dark stuff is supposed to represent satanism or demon worship\nor gnosticism or some amalgam of all of it. Perhaps the religious scholars can make\nbetter sense of that than me.\n \nI guess the fact that Severian seems to need both the dark arts to become Autarch and\nthe light of the Claw/White Fountain to bring the New Sun means something. Perhaps that\nGod/The Increate finds both necessary to achieve His goals. But we are still supposed\nto choose good whenever possible...aren't we? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C52F8FE.8010807@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T16:08:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/30/2010 10:16 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- I think it's a mistake to strongly link the Cumaean to the leech or\nCeryx on the basis of their resurrection fixation - essentially *everyone* and\n*everything* in the BOTNS - including the title! - is connected to death and\nresurrection in one way or another half-dozen. Personal resurrection, the\nresurrection of habits and customs, of races, and of Urth herself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps I should have been more clear. I perceive that the story presents two\nsorts of resurrection. One is pure and good and is associated with Pelerines and\ngems and white (or is it doppler blue?) light and angels and, perhaps, faith." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I get the sense that the author is trying to convey that the various \n\"kinds of resurrection\" are a mortal projection; there is only one \nsource of the gift of life and that is the grace of the Increate. Then \nthere are people who presume to decide that the Increate hasn't given \nthem enough and will try to get more some other way, rather than living \nand sharing so that what they've been given *is* enough. This kind of \nsubstituion of one's judgment for that of the Increate is the first step \non the dark path that eventually leads the likes of Typhon and Ceryx to \nairs of godhood, the way Vodalus presumes to substitute himself for the \nAutarch." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T16:41:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C52F8FE.8010807@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 12:08 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nI get the sense that the author is trying to convey that the various \"kinds\nof resurrection\" are a mortal projection; there is only one source of the\ngift of life and that is the grace of the Increate. Then there are people\nwho presume to decide that the Increate hasn't given them enough and will\ntry to get more some other way, rather than living and sharing so that what\nthey've been given *is* enough. This kind of substituion of one's judgment\nfor that of the Increate is the first step on the dark path that eventually\nleads the likes of Typhon and Ceryx to airs of godhood, the way Vodalus\npresumes to substitute himself for the Autarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I really like this, and reading it the tumblers fell in my mind a little--of\ncourse it's the usurpation of the perogative of God that Wolfe means to\ninvoke by paralleling Baldanders with Victor Frankenstein and his monster\nalike, and in fact the precise effect and only be achieved by a blurring of\nthe two figures: Baldanders is like Victor Frankenstein, seeking to take\nover a divine role and like Victor Frankenstein, seeking to do so with\nforbidden science, but he is also in his rejection of God a rebellious son\nlike the Monster. This makes Baldanders both Promethean in his giving of\nfire/life/science without divine license and Luciferian in his rejection of\nthe divine.\n\nBy the way, a similar dynamic of good/bad resurrections, although much\nsimpler, is at work in the Harry Potter books, where Harry achieves various\nsorts of \"good\" immortality (protected from injury by mother's Christlike\nsacrifice, resurrected from dead by his own sacrifice of blood to\nVoldemort) while Voldemort (whose very name is so often parsed by clueless\ncommentators as the vaguely sinister \"flight of death\" rather than the\nsurely intended \"fleeing death\") pursues \"evil\" immortality, by feasting on\nthe blood of unicorns or the use of \"horcruxs.\" I understand that \"horcrux\"\nis Rowling's coinage, and a pun: \"whore-cross,\" something that has the same\nresemblance to the salvific and immortality-granting Cross of Christ as a\nwhore has to a bride--a quick, dirty, and likely cheap way of achieving the\nbasest end intended." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2010-07-30T22:25:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 30 Jul 2010, Lee Berman wrote:\nI don't know if this dark stuff is supposed to represent satanism or demon worship\nor gnosticism or some amalgam of all of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Pelagianism!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C546555.9020108@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-31T18:03:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wonder, given the way Vodalus talks, if his path isn't almost the \nbetter one. He speaks of the sun hiding the stars that are our proper \nheritage, of how his masters wait until humanity is purified, and how \nvile are the actions of the Autarch.\n\nSo although, yes, one side is nominally \"white\" and the other nominally \n\"black\" (as Vodalus himself puts it), the outcome seems pretty win-win, \nor equal parts lose-lose. Is it surprising the undines help Severian and \nErebus/Abaia don't kill him? Doesn't Vodalus win when Severian is on the \nthrone, and is not the Commonwealth thus defeated and occupied?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- I think it's a mistake to strongly link the Cumaean to the leech or \nCeryx on the basis of their resurrection fixation - essentially *everyone* and \n*everything* in the BOTNS - including the title! - is connected to death and \nresurrection in one way or another half-dozen. Personal resurrection, the \nresurrection of habits and customs, of races, and of Urth herself.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nPerhaps I should have been more clear. I perceive that the story presents two\nsorts of resurrection. One is pure and good and is associated with Pelerines and\ngems and white (or is it doppler blue?) light and angels and, perhaps, faith.\n \nThe other is dark and evil and associated with secret knowledge, potions and \nseances and human body experimentation and so on. I think we are expected to\nidentify which approach to resurrection the various characters in BotNS gravitate\ntoward and to recognize the connections. The Cumaean and witches are associated\nwith Vodalus, as is the Old Leech. We must wonder about the source of the old'\nAutarch's alzabo-like pharmacon, also. Baldanders and Typhon appear to rely on\nmachinery rather than potions and witchcraft to achieve their biological goals\nbut it seems to be in the same sort of vein of evil to me.\n \nI don't know if this dark stuff is supposed to represent satanism or demon worship\nor gnosticism or some amalgam of all of it. Perhaps the religious scholars can make\nbetter sense of that than me.\n \nI guess the fact that Severian seems to need both the dark arts to become Autarch and\nthe light of the Claw/White Fountain to bring the New Sun means something. Perhaps that\nGod/The Increate finds both necessary to achieve His goals. But we are still supposed\nto choose good whenever possible...aren't we? \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5465B6.6000801@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-31T18:04:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C52F8FE.8010807@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd think the main issue would be substituting yourself for the \nIncreate, not for the Autarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/30/2010 10:16 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson- I think it's a mistake to strongly link the Cumaean to \nthe leech or\nCeryx on the basis of their resurrection fixation - essentially \n*everyone* and\n*everything* in the BOTNS - including the title! - is connected to \ndeath and\nresurrection in one way or another half-dozen. Personal \nresurrection, the\nresurrection of habits and customs, of races, and of Urth herself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps I should have been more clear. I perceive that the story \npresents two\nsorts of resurrection. One is pure and good and is associated with \nPelerines and\ngems and white (or is it doppler blue?) light and angels and, \nperhaps, faith." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I get the sense that the author is trying to convey that the various \n\"kinds of resurrection\" are a mortal projection; there is only one \nsource of the gift of life and that is the grace of the Increate. Then \nthere are people who presume to decide that the Increate hasn't given \nthem enough and will try to get more some other way, rather than \nliving and sharing so that what they've been given *is* enough. This \nkind of substituion of one's judgment for that of the Increate is the \nfirst step on the dark path that eventually leads the likes of Typhon \nand Ceryx to airs of godhood, the way Vodalus presumes to substitute \nhimself for the Autarch." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T01:13:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind / Inire / Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C4EF867.3010602@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was in fact wading in a swimming pool with only my head above water a\nfew days ago.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/27/2010 9:20 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I am also the less-turrets version of Josh, though." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Are you calling him a naviscaput? And yourself a headless naviscaput?\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C54ED23.7020301@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T03:42:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C546555.9020108@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/31/2010 1:03 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI wonder, given the way Vodalus talks, if his path isn't almost the\nbetter one. He speaks of the sun hiding the stars that are our proper\nheritage, of how his masters wait until humanity is purified, and how\nvile are the actions of the Autarch.\n\nSo although, yes, one side is nominally \"white\" and the other nominally\n\"black\" (as Vodalus himself puts it), the outcome seems pretty win-win,\nor equal parts lose-lose. Is it surprising the undines help Severian and\nErebus/Abaia don't kill him? Doesn't Vodalus win when Severian is on the\nthrone, and is not the Commonwealth thus defeated and occupied?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vodalus fails in his ambition to upset the rule of the Autarch and put \nthe Exultants in charge. The rest of the counter-changed patchwork of \ngood deeds by evil forces and misfortunes at the hands of the righteous \nis the inevitable consequence of created existence, selectively played \nup by Vodalus to propagandize the uncommitted.\n\nIt's basic Qabbalism that in every good thing on earth there is some \nevil, but likewise some good can come of any evil act, and this \n\"impurity\" is in fact vital to give things balance and what we call \ntropisms today. The renewed sun does hide the stars, yes, but only \nduring the day, they remain visbile at night as is proper, and their \nlimited accessibility makes them all the more precious for their use in \nnavigation, time-keeping, and divination. To serve the good at the cost \nof evil and misfortune is part of what gives it value; if to help others \nhad an immediate prospect of repayment in kind it wouldn't be kindness \nso much as commerce, which is why kindness to animals was seen as the \nhigher virtue, without hope of reward." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C54EECA.8070502@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T03:49:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C5465B6.6000801@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/31/2010 1:04 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI'd think the main issue would be substituting yourself for the\nIncreate, not for the Autarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They are but two steps on the same stairway to damnation, one a bit \nfurther from the end, or even the same step if you believe the Autarchy \nis divinely ordained; by presuming to substitute yourself for the \nAutarch you are substituing your choice for the Increate's. Vodalus is \nprobably too much of a ignorant materialist (in the view of the nurse \nand the BOTNS's conceit) to go full black magician and seek to literally \nplace himself on a level with the Increate." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5caf8476e190e5b578fe6ddb480ac55f.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T06:09:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l has his good days and his bad days.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "OK, Inere as Rudesind's master is clear. But:\n\nOn Tue, Jul 27, 2010 at 10:27 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are we to assume Inire built these mirrors that take you to other places\n(and times from what I can gather) yet has never mastered them?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see Inire as a dabbler in these mirrors, not their master.\n\n--\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5511DF.9010607@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T06:19:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C54EECA.8070502@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (01-08-2010 04:49):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Vodalus is probably too much of a ignorant materialist (in the view of\nthe nurse and the BOTNS's conceit) to go full black magician and seek to\nliterally place himself on a level with the Increate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Does anyone else get the idea that Vodalus isn't the brightest candle in the\nbox?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T06:45:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C51D272.4040405@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Angels are male and female.\n\nYou don't have to take my word for this: I have never heard of someone not\ngetting results from the enochian system.\n\nGet the calls and start chanting:\nhttp://hermetic.com/enochia/calls.html?ref=Guzels.TV\n\nI note that the complex consonents (eg rsg in vorsg) are short monosyllables.\n\nPronunciation is not critical: these are known to be generally benign\nentities.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It is a poorly understood phenomenon, and I do not pretend to expertise\non the subject.\n\nI seem to recall there was a bad movie about it once ... perhaps angels\ntrade wings for genitals when that happens.\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/29/2010 1:22 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I forget where Wolfe discusses it. I thought 2 of them spoke in blank\nverse.\n\nEither way, Wolfe puts much thought into his dialog: diction,\nvocabulary, rhythm, colloquialisms. His characters, as Shakespeare put\nit somewhere, \"unfold themselves\" through speech. By their speech ye\nmay\nknow them, every time. Except when they fake another's.\n\nWe disagree on the meaning of\n\n\"he is one of those few who have chosen to cast their lots entirely\nwith\nhumanity, remaining on Urth as a human being.\"\n\nThis is like reading a metaphor comparing a woman's head to a mason's\nhammer as implying that her head is made of metal. Such a person has\nmerely given up all his rights and powers as a cacogen; he has not\nactually chosen a new form. However, since the analogy seems to be to\nfallen angels, I guess the loss of wings meets both criteria without\ncontradiction." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "How does that work? I don't see losing the wings would be equivalent\nto gaining mortal flesh." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T06:48:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Rudesind/Inire/Lunar Picture", "in_reply_to": "<4C5200E9.2060708@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (29-07-2010 21:46):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Wait, you know the movie?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The one I'm thinking of is _City of Angels_ with Meg Ryan and Lucas\nCage, and it's a remake of a German film, _Wings of Desire_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Were the ottomans a remake of the byzantines?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "More like neopersians.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C553E74.5020807@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T09:29:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C5511DF.9010607@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:19 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote (01-08-2010 04:49):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Vodalus is probably too much of a ignorant materialist (in the view of\nthe nurse and the BOTNS's conceit) to go full black magician and seek to\nliterally place himself on a level with the Increate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Does anyone else get the idea that Vodalus isn't the brightest candle in\nthe\nbox?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's no dummy or simpleton, but I get the sense he has a problem \naccepting inconvenient facts." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C556F2D.6060304@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T12:57:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C54ED23.7020301@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vodalus also desired to be autarch (per Thea's remarks). If Vodalus \nsimply wants to put the exultants in charge, is everything else he says \nbullshit? And how do we know?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/31/2010 1:03 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I wonder, given the way Vodalus talks, if his path isn't almost the\nbetter one. He speaks of the sun hiding the stars that are our proper\nheritage, of how his masters wait until humanity is purified, and how\nvile are the actions of the Autarch.\n\nSo although, yes, one side is nominally \"white\" and the other nominally\n\"black\" (as Vodalus himself puts it), the outcome seems pretty win-win,\nor equal parts lose-lose. Is it surprising the undines help Severian and\nErebus/Abaia don't kill him? Doesn't Vodalus win when Severian is on the\nthrone, and is not the Commonwealth thus defeated and occupied?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Vodalus fails in his ambition to upset the rule of the Autarch and put \nthe Exultants in charge. The rest of the counter-changed patchwork of \ngood deeds by evil forces and misfortunes at the hands of the \nrighteous is the inevitable consequence of created existence, \nselectively played up by Vodalus to propagandize the uncommitted.\n\nIt's basic Qabbalism that in every good thing on earth there is some \nevil, but likewise some good can come of any evil act, and this \n\"impurity\" is in fact vital to give things balance and what we call \ntropisms today. The renewed sun does hide the stars, yes, but only \nduring the day, they remain visbile at night as is proper, and their \nlimited accessibility makes them all the more precious for their use \nin navigation, time-keeping, and divination. To serve the good at the \ncost of evil and misfortune is part of what gives it value; if to help \nothers had an immediate prospect of repayment in kind it wouldn't be \nkindness so much as commerce, which is why kindness to animals was \nseen as the higher virtue, without hope of reward." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C556FAF.1000906@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T12:59:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C54EECA.8070502@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps. \"If you believe the Autarchy is divinely ordained\" is the key \nphrase. I don't see him as having Pope status, though maybe some do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/31/2010 1:04 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd think the main issue would be substituting yourself for the\nIncreate, not for the Autarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They are but two steps on the same stairway to damnation, one a bit \nfurther from the end, or even the same step if you believe the \nAutarchy is divinely ordained; by presuming to substitute yourself for \nthe Autarch you are substituing your choice for the Increate's. \nVodalus is probably too much of a ignorant materialist (in the view of \nthe nurse and the BOTNS's conceit) to go full black magician and seek \nto literally place himself on a level with the Increate." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6bac079621c5a4765a59b6caeb85ec03.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T13:01:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C556FAF.1000906@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why should he?\n\nThe Byzantine Emperor did not.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps. \"If you believe the Autarchy is divinely ordained\" is the key\nphrase. I don't see him as having Pope status, though maybe some do.\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/31/2010 1:04 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I'd think the main issue would be substituting yourself for the\nIncreate, not for the Autarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "They are but two steps on the same stairway to damnation, one a bit\nfurther from the end, or even the same step if you believe the\nAutarchy is divinely ordained; by presuming to substitute yourself for\nthe Autarch you are substituing your choice for the Increate's.\nVodalus is probably too much of a ignorant materialist (in the view of\nthe nurse and the BOTNS's conceit) to go full black magician and seek\nto literally place himself on a level with the Increate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5577DE.6060509@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T13:34:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C556F2D.6060304@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2010 7:57 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nVodalus also desired to be autarch (per Thea's remarks). If Vodalus\nsimply wants to put the exultants in charge, is everything else he says\nbullshit? And how do we know?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure what you are getting at. If Vodalus wanted to be Autarch \nthen he certainly fails, being dead and still not Autarch. It can be \nsaid that Severian is his servant and his servant is now Autarch, but \nthat's no gain there either, since the last Autarch was just as much his \nservant as Severian." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C557B93.9070301@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T13:50:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C556FAF.1000906@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2010 7:59 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nPerhaps. \"If you believe the Autarchy is divinely ordained\" is the key\nphrase. I don't see him as having Pope status, though maybe some do." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some of the figurative comments about the Autarch who this is that and \nso forth and the lack of any particularl clerical figures suggests to me \nthat they have a more Anglican or classic Roman system, with the Autarch \ngetting to break in line to the end of the cursus honorum." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8eb6d90e9408016d0f3c419b5d4157af.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T14:33:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C557B93.9070301@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why, Wilson, do you wish to not take Gene Wolfe's word that the system\ndepicted is that of Byzantium?\n\nYour left nut, Wilson, for a very minimum.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55B1E2.1050708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T17:41:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C553E74.5020807@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly, he believes that Erebus/Abaia will give him what he wants. \nThat's not always the case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 8/1/2010 1:19 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (01-08-2010 04:49):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Vodalus is probably too much of a ignorant materialist (in the view of\nthe nurse and the BOTNS's conceit) to go full black magician and \nseek to\nliterally place himself on a level with the Increate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Does anyone else get the idea that Vodalus isn't the brightest candle in\nthe\nbox?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He's no dummy or simpleton, but I get the sense he has a problem \naccepting inconvenient facts." } ] }, { "message_id": "<805a9129bd23dbfd6b034dc6835d1a23.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T17:50:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C55B1E2.1050708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your patron does not always give you what you want.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Certainly, he believes that Erebus/Abaia will give him what he wants.\nThat's not always the case.\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:19 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (01-08-2010 04:49):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Vodalus is probably too much of a ignorant materialist (in the view of\nthe nurse and the BOTNS's conceit) to go full black magician and\nseek to\nliterally place himself on a level with the Increate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Does anyone else get the idea that Vodalus isn't the brightest candle\nin\nthe\nbox?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He's no dummy or simpleton, but I get the sense he has a problem\naccepting inconvenient facts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55B5F1.4080708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T17:59:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C5577DE.6060509@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure either. I'm just asking.\n\nVodalus certainly failed in becoming autarch, yes, and yes, his servant \ngained the throne. This is not a success for Vodalus, but it is far from \nbeing a failure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 8/1/2010 7:57 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Vodalus also desired to be autarch (per Thea's remarks). If Vodalus\nsimply wants to put the exultants in charge, is everything else he says\nbullshit? And how do we know?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what you are getting at. If Vodalus wanted to be Autarch \nthen he certainly fails, being dead and still not Autarch. It can be \nsaid that Severian is his servant and his servant is now Autarch, but \nthat's no gain there either, since the last Autarch was just as much \nhis servant as Severian." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55B74A.8050900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T18:04:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C557B93.9070301@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It does make sense. The Byzantine system had no Pope, and therefore no \ndivision between Pope and HRE. It could also be argued that the Turkish \nsultans were truly successors to the Eastern Roman Emperor as much as \nsuccessors to the caliphs, so the dual institution was there in effect, \neven if the ERE was not formally defined as \"Christ's vicar on Earth.\"\n\nSo perhaps the autarch should be considered as such, whether there is \ntextual evidence for it or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 8/1/2010 7:59 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Perhaps. \"If you believe the Autarchy is divinely ordained\" is the key\nphrase. I don't see him as having Pope status, though maybe some do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some of the figurative comments about the Autarch who this is that and \nso forth and the lack of any particularl clerical figures suggests to \nme that they have a more Anglican or classic Roman system, with the \nAutarch getting to break in line to the end of the cursus honorum." } ] }, { "message_id": "<2c11fa8a24c2f7c28ab17dd2c35d3d5b.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T18:11:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C55B5F1.4080708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Vodalus, whatever else one may say about him, was dedicated.\n\nI'm reasonably sure that it was sufficient for him.\n\nIf Agia was decent about killing him, I am absolutely sure.\n\nI think Agia would not attempt to torture someone she had nothing personal\nagainst.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure either. I'm just asking.\n\nVodalus certainly failed in becoming autarch, yes, and yes, his servant\ngained the throne. This is not a success for Vodalus, but it is far from\nbeing a failure.\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/1/2010 7:57 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Vodalus also desired to be autarch (per Thea's remarks). If Vodalus\nsimply wants to put the exultants in charge, is everything else he says\nbullshit? And how do we know?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure what you are getting at. If Vodalus wanted to be Autarch\nthen he certainly fails, being dead and still not Autarch. It can be\nsaid that Severian is his servant and his servant is now Autarch, but\nthat's no gain there either, since the last Autarch was just as much\nhis servant as Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T18:12:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C55B5F1.4080708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Now for the really hard question.\n\nWhich character in TBoTNS do you identify with and why?\n\nI'll answer last, or never.\n\nNo one really wants to know my answer.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T18:13:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C55B74A.8050900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Turks are the other Persians.\n\nThe Turkish system is the Persian system.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It does make sense. The Byzantine system had no Pope, and therefore no\ndivision between Pope and HRE. It could also be argued that the Turkish\nsultans were truly successors to the Eastern Roman Emperor as much as\nsuccessors to the caliphs, so the dual institution was there in effect,\neven if the ERE was not formally defined as \"Christ's vicar on Earth.\"\n\nSo perhaps the autarch should be considered as such, whether there is\ntextual evidence for it or not.\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/1/2010 7:59 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Perhaps. \"If you believe the Autarchy is divinely ordained\" is the key\nphrase. I don't see him as having Pope status, though maybe some do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some of the figurative comments about the Autarch who this is that and\nso forth and the lack of any particularl clerical figures suggests to\nme that they have a more Anglican or classic Roman system, with the\nAutarch getting to break in line to the end of the cursus honorum." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55B9AF.3040404@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T18:15:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes and no. The Ottoman system was also the Byzantine system." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThe Turks are the other Persians.\n\nThe Turkish system is the Persian system.\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It does make sense. The Byzantine system had no Pope, and therefore no\ndivision between Pope and HRE. It could also be argued that the Turkish\nsultans were truly successors to the Eastern Roman Emperor as much as\nsuccessors to the caliphs, so the dual institution was there in effect,\neven if the ERE was not formally defined as \"Christ's vicar on Earth.\"\n\nSo perhaps the autarch should be considered as such, whether there is\ntextual evidence for it or not.\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 8/1/2010 7:59 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Perhaps. \"If you believe the Autarchy is divinely ordained\" is the key\nphrase. I don't see him as having Pope status, though maybe some do.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Some of the figurative comments about the Autarch who this is that and\nso forth and the lack of any particularl clerical figures suggests to\nme that they have a more Anglican or classic Roman system, with the\nAutarch getting to break in line to the end of the cursus honorum.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55C16D.4080109@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T18:48:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 08/01/2010 01:12 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nNow for the really hard question.\n\nWhich character in TBoTNS do you identify with and why?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cyby.\n\nWho is all grown up--indeed, in his middle years--and is still only an \napprentice, to someone who is for the most part beneath the notice of \nthe Powers.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55E940.3070006@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T21:38:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Serpents and Undines", "in_reply_to": "<4C55B74A.8050900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:04 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt does make sense. The Byzantine system had no Pope, and therefore no\ndivision between Pope and HRE. It could also be argued that the Turkish\nsultans were truly successors to the Eastern Roman Emperor as much as\nsuccessors to the caliphs, so the dual institution was there in effect,\neven if the ERE was not formally defined as \"Christ's vicar on Earth.\"\n\nSo perhaps the autarch should be considered as such, whether there is\ntextual evidence for it or not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt there is a close analog, because rather than God's \nrepresentative on earth of course the Autarch's highest calling is the \nepitome, to be Urth's representative in heaven (Yesod). That influence \nis probably intended to be pre-Columbian." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] } ] }