{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5679", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5679, "subject": "Fuligin as Black Hole...", "messages": 16, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-07-30T12:39:29+00:00", "last": "2010-07-31T18:06:12+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<751E00C0-24AD-4308-AC3C-395EF9ED04CD@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T12:39:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This likely has been covered, but might the darker-than-black fuligin cloak be a metaphor slash foreshadowing of the dying sun.\n\nEither the phenomenon that much of tge suns core is alleged to be made up of anti-matter; or perhaps the white fountain up through a black hole. A fun visual metaphor for pale Sev and his black cloak.\n\nOr maybe the cloak just represents space at large, and pale Sev tge New Son flesh-donned.\n\n\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T12:55:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "<751E00C0-24AD-4308-AC3C-395EF9ED04CD@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or Gene, like Neil Gaiman and Tim Burton, thinks fair-skin-in-black looks\ncool.\n\nIf the coloring has some meaning beyond that particular to the torturers'\nguild (they torture people and seem to have some connection, literal or\nmetaphoric, to Catholic priesthood, so are in black), then it must be read\nin connection with the robes of argent, the color more white than white,\nthat Severian is about to put on at the end of Citadel. So I think a\nconnection to the old sun and/or its black hole is probably intended." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nThis likely has been covered, but might the darker-than-black fuligin cloak\nbe a metaphor slash foreshadowing of the dying sun.\n\nEither the phenomenon that much of tge suns core is alleged to be made up\nof anti-matter; or perhaps the white fountain up through a black hole. A fun\nvisual metaphor for pale Sev and his black cloak.\n\nOr maybe the cloak just represents space at large, and pale Sev tge New Son\nflesh-donned.\n\n\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T16:36:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 30, 2010, at 8:55 AM, John Watkins wrote:\nIf the coloring has some meaning beyond that particular to the torturers' guild (they torture people and seem to have some connection, literal or metaphoric, to Catholic priesthood, so are in black), then it must be read in connection with the robes of argent, the color more white than white, that Severian is about to put on at the end of Citadel. So I think a connection to the old sun and/or its black hole is probably intended." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, and in that sense, I can sort of hear Will Smith at the end of this journey, putting on the argent robe and saying something like:\n\n\"We 'bout to change the sun, yo!\"\n\nI can dig it.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T16:47:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n\nRight, and in that sense, I can sort of hear Will Smith at the end of this\njourney, putting on the argent robe and saying something like:\n\n\"We 'bout to change the sun, yo!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Really, the concept of the book in incredible. \"Torturer with eidetic\nmemory reignites sun, encountering on the way giants, whores, cyborgs,\nandroids, Lovecraftian monstrosities, giant mecha, aliens, angels, aliens\nwho might be angels, beastmen, sorcerors, witches, and futuristic nuns.\nAlso featuring incest, time-travel, resurrection, transubstantiation, and\nguest-starring Jorge Luis Borges.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can dig it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So say we all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " ...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<45CEF386-198D-40EA-A005-FF1EA1A03C9B@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T16:49:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 30, 2010, at 12:47 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n\"Torturer with eidetic memory reignites sun, encountering on the way giants, whores, cyborgs, androids, Lovecraftian monstrosities, giant mecha, aliens, angels, aliens who might be angels, beastmen, sorcerors, witches, and futuristic nuns. Also featuring incest, time-travel, resurrection, transubstantiation, and guest-starring Jorge Luis Borges.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have what I need to sell my mini-series to HBO after all!\n\nI was going to roll with:\n\n\"Imagine J.R.R. Tolkien and Philip K. Dick having a heart-to-heart with David Lynch.\"\n\nbut yours is much better!\n\n...ryan\n\nP.S. Where does the alzabo fit into your description? And you forgot \"love\" from the \"Also featuring...\" bit." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T16:58:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "<45CEF386-198D-40EA-A005-FF1EA1A03C9B@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins- If the coloring has some meaning beyond that particular to \nthe torturers'guild (they torture people and seem to have some connection, \nliteral or metaphoric, to Catholic priesthood, so are in black), then it \nmust be read in connection with the robes of argent, the color more white\nthan white, that Severian is about to put on at the end of Citadel. So I \nthink a connection to the old sun and/or its black hole is probably intended." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWithout disagreeing I'd want to point out that fuligin is the color which is \ndarker than black. If black absorbs all colors of the spectrum then a black\nhole is even darker because it actively sucks all light (and everything else)\nout of this universe.\n \nConversely, argent is described as the color more pure than white. Argent can\nbe used to describe a shade of white but its more basic definition relates to\nsilver. White reflects all colors of the spectrum but (polished) silver does so\nin an even more pure way.\n \nI don't know about now, but around the time of BotNS's creation, I think quasars\nwere considered to possibly be the opposite of black holes, leaking energy into\nour universe. Hethor's ship is called The Quasar and was powered by (demon-haunted)\nmirror sails.\n \nSo the opposite of fuligin is argent. The opposite to a black hole is a quasar.\nThe opposite to being a torturer is being Autarch/New Sun. Mirrors? Apparently\nthey can be used to find good or evil. Depends on which way you pass through\nthe looking-glass?\n \nI dunno. I guess I am agreeing that in addition to religious allusion there is \nmodern (at the time)physics and almost surely a conveyance of sense of personal \nredemption with regard to the opposites of fuligin and argent/mirrors that we find\nin BotNS. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<72F0E40B-DD12-40B3-9883-21C5C2805B1A@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T16:58:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "<45CEF386-198D-40EA-A005-FF1EA1A03C9B@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 30, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\"Torturer with eidetic memory reignites sun, encountering on the way giants, whores, cyborgs, androids, Lovecraftian monstrosities, giant mecha, aliens, angels, aliens who might be angels, beastmen, sorcerors, witches, and futuristic nuns. Also featuring incest, time-travel, resurrection, transubstantiation, and guest-starring Jorge Luis Borges.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "REMIX:\n\nThe Book of the New Sun is an epic journey following an exiled torturer with a photographic memory named Severian as he becomes king of the world and reignites the sun.\n\nOn the way, he encounters giants, whores, cyborgs, androids, Lovecraftian monstrosities, aliens, angels, aliens who might be angels, angel monsters, beastmen, sorcerers, witches, and futuristic nuns.\n\nAlso featuring inadvertent incest, inadvertent resurrection, time-travel (intentional and inadvertent), transubstantiation, and love.\n\nImagine J.R.R. Tolkien and Philip K. Dick collaborating with David Lynch, and you begin to approach the idea of Book of the New Sun.\n\n(With guest appearances by Neil Armstrong and Jorge Luis Borges.)\n\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<62287CC0-20DD-49FE-BBA3-3397254DC067@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T17:00:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 30, 2010, at 12:58 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJohn Watkins- If the coloring has some meaning beyond that particular to \nthe torturers'guild (they torture people and seem to have some connection, \nliteral or metaphoric, to Catholic priesthood, so are in black), then it \nmust be read in connection with the robes of argent, the color more white\nthan white, that Severian is about to put on at the end of Citadel. So I \nthink a connection to the old sun and/or its black hole is probably intended." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Without disagreeing I'd want to point out that fuligin is the color which is \ndarker than black. If black absorbs all colors of the spectrum then a black\nhole is even darker because it actively sucks all light (and everything else)\nout of this universe.\n\nConversely, argent is described as the color more pure than white. Argent can\nbe used to describe a shade of white but its more basic definition relates to\nsilver. White reflects all colors of the spectrum but (polished) silver does so\nin an even more pure way.\n\nI don't know about now, but around the time of BotNS's creation, I think quasars\nwere considered to possibly be the opposite of black holes, leaking energy into\nour universe. Hethor's ship is called The Quasar and was powered by (demon-haunted)\nmirror sails.\n\nSo the opposite of fuligin is argent. The opposite to a black hole is a quasar.\nThe opposite to being a torturer is being Autarch/New Sun. Mirrors? Apparently\nthey can be used to find good or evil. Depends on which way you pass through\nthe looking-glass?\n\nI dunno. I guess I am agreeing that in addition to religious allusion there is \nmodern (at the time)physics and almost surely a conveyance of sense of personal \nredemption with regard to the opposites of fuligin and argent/mirrors that we find\nin BotNS. \t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So can we agree, at least, that the cloak and the robe are metaphors and not just habits as such?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5316CD.1000909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T18:15:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "<45CEF386-198D-40EA-A005-FF1EA1A03C9B@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/30/2010 11:49 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nP.S. Where does the alzabo fit into your description? And you forgot \"love\" from the \"Also featuring...\" bit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "High concept: \"He's torturer with multiple personalities, it's a talking \nbear; they're cops!\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T18:17:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "<45CEF386-198D-40EA-A005-FF1EA1A03C9B@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n...ryan\n\nP.S. Where does the alzabo fit into your description? And you forgot \"love\"\nfrom the \"Also featuring...\" bit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's an alien, right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T18:23:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "<4C5316CD.1000909@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Jul 30, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nP.S. Where does the alzabo fit into your description? And you forgot \"love\" from the \"Also featuring...\" bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "High concept: \"He's torturer with multiple personalities, it's a talking bear; they're cops!\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Love that.\n\nBut I'll go with John's version... alien. Just seems underwhelming for such a creepy thing.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T18:25:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n\nLove that.\n\nBut I'll go with John's version... alien. Just seems underwhelming for such\na creepy thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Soul-eating alien\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...ryan\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C531A67.3030705@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T18:31:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/30/2010 1:25 PM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Ryan Dunn > wrote:\n\n\n Love that.\n\n But I'll go with John's version... alien. Just seems underwhelming\n for such a creepy thing.\n\n\"Soul-eating alien\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"It's like Bubba Hotep, but instead of a mummy, think ginormous wolf-man \nwith those weird black eyes\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T18:34:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "<4C531A67.3030705@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\"It's like Bubba Hotep, but instead of a mummy, think ginormous wolf-man\nwith those weird black eyes\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always wondered how they pitched Bubba-Hotep.\n\n\"Here we go: Undead Egyptian butt-sucker.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5322BC.6040107@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T19:06:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"It's like Bubba Hotep, but instead of a mummy, think ginormous wolf-man\nwith those weird black eyes\"\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've always wondered how they pitched Bubba-Hotep.\n\n\"Here we go: Undead Egyptian butt-sucker.\"\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's to wonder? This pitch practically sells itself.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C546614.5090407@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-31T18:06:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Fuligin as Black Hole...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And that's exactly what I fear from a movie adaptation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Jul 30, 2010, at 8:55 AM, John Watkins wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If the coloring has some meaning beyond that particular to the torturers' guild (they torture people and seem to have some connection, literal or metaphoric, to Catholic priesthood, so are in black), then it must be read in connection with the robes of argent, the color more white than white, that Severian is about to put on at the end of Citadel. So I think a connection to the old sun and/or its black hole is probably intended.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Right, and in that sense, I can sort of hear Will Smith at the end of this journey, putting on the argent robe and saying something like:\n\n\"We 'bout to change the sun, yo!\"\n\nI can dig it.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }