# Fuligin as Black Hole... *The Urth list — 16 messages, 7 voices, 30 Jul 2010* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Ryan Dunn *30 Jul 2010, 12:39* This likely has been covered, but might the darker-than-black fuligin cloak be a metaphor slash foreshadowing of the dying sun. Either the phenomenon that much of tge suns core is alleged to be made up of anti-matter; or perhaps the white fountain up through a black hole. A fun visual metaphor for pale Sev and his black cloak. Or maybe the cloak just represents space at large, and pale Sev tge New Son flesh-donned. ...ryan --- ### John Watkins *30 Jul 2010, 12:55 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* Or Gene, like Neil Gaiman and Tim Burton, thinks fair-skin-in-black looks cool. If the coloring has some meaning beyond that particular to the torturers' guild (they torture people and seem to have some connection, literal or metaphoric, to Catholic priesthood, so are in black), then it must be read in connection with the robes of argent, the color more white than white, that Severian is about to put on at the end of Citadel. So I think a connection to the old sun and/or its black hole is probably intended. > On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 8:39 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote: > This likely has been covered, but might the darker-than-black fuligin cloak > be a metaphor slash foreshadowing of the dying sun. > > Either the phenomenon that much of tge suns core is alleged to be made up > of anti-matter; or perhaps the white fountain up through a black hole. A fun > visual metaphor for pale Sev and his black cloak. > > Or maybe the cloak just represents space at large, and pale Sev tge New Son > flesh-donned. > > > > ...ryan > _______________________________________________ --- ### Ryan Dunn *30 Jul 2010, 16:36 · in reply to John Watkins* > On Jul 30, 2010, at 8:55 AM, John Watkins wrote: > If the coloring has some meaning beyond that particular to the torturers' guild (they torture people and seem to have some connection, literal or metaphoric, to Catholic priesthood, so are in black), then it must be read in connection with the robes of argent, the color more white than white, that Severian is about to put on at the end of Citadel. So I think a connection to the old sun and/or its black hole is probably intended. Right, and in that sense, I can sort of hear Will Smith at the end of this journey, putting on the argent robe and saying something like: "We 'bout to change the sun, yo!" I can dig it. ...ryan --- ### John Watkins *30 Jul 2010, 16:47 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* > On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 12:36 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote: > > > Right, and in that sense, I can sort of hear Will Smith at the end of this > journey, putting on the argent robe and saying something like: > > "We 'bout to change the sun, yo!" Really, the concept of the book in incredible. "Torturer with eidetic memory reignites sun, encountering on the way giants, whores, cyborgs, androids, Lovecraftian monstrosities, giant mecha, aliens, angels, aliens who might be angels, beastmen, sorcerors, witches, and futuristic nuns. Also featuring incest, time-travel, resurrection, transubstantiation, and guest-starring Jorge Luis Borges." > I can dig it. So say we all. > ...ryan > _______________________________________________ --- ### Ryan Dunn *30 Jul 2010, 16:49 · in reply to John Watkins* > On Jul 30, 2010, at 12:47 PM, John Watkins wrote: > "Torturer with eidetic memory reignites sun, encountering on the way giants, whores, cyborgs, androids, Lovecraftian monstrosities, giant mecha, aliens, angels, aliens who might be angels, beastmen, sorcerors, witches, and futuristic nuns. Also featuring incest, time-travel, resurrection, transubstantiation, and guest-starring Jorge Luis Borges." I have what I need to sell my mini-series to HBO after all! I was going to roll with: "Imagine J.R.R. Tolkien and Philip K. Dick having a heart-to-heart with David Lynch." but yours is much better! ...ryan P.S. Where does the alzabo fit into your description? And you forgot "love" from the "Also featuring..." bit. --- ### Lee Berman *30 Jul 2010, 16:58 · follows Ryan Dunn* > John Watkins- If the coloring has some meaning beyond that particular to > the torturers'guild (they torture people and seem to have some connection, > literal or metaphoric, to Catholic priesthood, so are in black), then it > must be read in connection with the robes of argent, the color more white > than white, that Severian is about to put on at the end of Citadel. So I > think a connection to the old sun and/or its black hole is probably intended. Without disagreeing I'd want to point out that fuligin is the color which is darker than black. If black absorbs all colors of the spectrum then a black hole is even darker because it actively sucks all light (and everything else) out of this universe. Conversely, argent is described as the color more pure than white. Argent can be used to describe a shade of white but its more basic definition relates to silver. White reflects all colors of the spectrum but (polished) silver does so in an even more pure way. I don't know about now, but around the time of BotNS's creation, I think quasars were considered to possibly be the opposite of black holes, leaking energy into our universe. Hethor's ship is called The Quasar and was powered by (demon-haunted) mirror sails. So the opposite of fuligin is argent. The opposite to a black hole is a quasar. The opposite to being a torturer is being Autarch/New Sun. Mirrors? Apparently they can be used to find good or evil. Depends on which way you pass through the looking-glass? I dunno. I guess I am agreeing that in addition to religious allusion there is modern (at the time)physics and almost surely a conveyance of sense of personal redemption with regard to the opposites of fuligin and argent/mirrors that we find in BotNS. --- ### Ryan Dunn *30 Jul 2010, 16:58 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* >> On Jul 30, 2010, at 12:49 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote: >> "Torturer with eidetic memory reignites sun, encountering on the way giants, whores, cyborgs, androids, Lovecraftian monstrosities, giant mecha, aliens, angels, aliens who might be angels, beastmen, sorcerors, witches, and futuristic nuns. Also featuring incest, time-travel, resurrection, transubstantiation, and guest-starring Jorge Luis Borges." REMIX: The Book of the New Sun is an epic journey following an exiled torturer with a photographic memory named Severian as he becomes king of the world and reignites the sun. On the way, he encounters giants, whores, cyborgs, androids, Lovecraftian monstrosities, aliens, angels, aliens who might be angels, angel monsters, beastmen, sorcerers, witches, and futuristic nuns. Also featuring inadvertent incest, inadvertent resurrection, time-travel (intentional and inadvertent), transubstantiation, and love. Imagine J.R.R. Tolkien and Philip K. Dick collaborating with David Lynch, and you begin to approach the idea of Book of the New Sun. (With guest appearances by Neil Armstrong and Jorge Luis Borges.) ...ryan --- ### Ryan Dunn *30 Jul 2010, 17:00 · in reply to Lee Berman* >> On Jul 30, 2010, at 12:58 PM, Lee Berman wrote: >> John Watkins- If the coloring has some meaning beyond that particular to >> the torturers'guild (they torture people and seem to have some connection, >> literal or metaphoric, to Catholic priesthood, so are in black), then it >> must be read in connection with the robes of argent, the color more white >> than white, that Severian is about to put on at the end of Citadel. So I >> think a connection to the old sun and/or its black hole is probably intended. > Without disagreeing I'd want to point out that fuligin is the color which is > darker than black. If black absorbs all colors of the spectrum then a black > hole is even darker because it actively sucks all light (and everything else) > out of this universe. > > Conversely, argent is described as the color more pure than white. Argent can > be used to describe a shade of white but its more basic definition relates to > silver. White reflects all colors of the spectrum but (polished) silver does so > in an even more pure way. > > I don't know about now, but around the time of BotNS's creation, I think quasars > were considered to possibly be the opposite of black holes, leaking energy into > our universe. Hethor's ship is called The Quasar and was powered by (demon-haunted) > mirror sails. > > So the opposite of fuligin is argent. The opposite to a black hole is a quasar. > The opposite to being a torturer is being Autarch/New Sun. Mirrors? Apparently > they can be used to find good or evil. Depends on which way you pass through > the looking-glass? > > I dunno. I guess I am agreeing that in addition to religious allusion there is > modern (at the time)physics and almost surely a conveyance of sense of personal > redemption with regard to the opposites of fuligin and argent/mirrors that we find > in BotNS. So can we agree, at least, that the cloak and the robe are metaphors and not just habits as such? ...ryan --- ### Jeff Wilson *30 Jul 2010, 18:15 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* > On 7/30/2010 11:49 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote: > P.S. Where does the alzabo fit into your description? And you forgot "love" from the "Also featuring..." bit. High concept: "He's torturer with multiple personalities, it's a talking bear; they're cops!" ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > ``` --- ### John Watkins *30 Jul 2010, 18:17 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* > On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 12:49 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote: > > ...ryan > > P.S. Where does the alzabo fit into your description? And you forgot "love" > from the "Also featuring..." bit. It's an alien, right? > _______________________________________________ --- ### Ryan Dunn *30 Jul 2010, 18:23 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* >> On Jul 30, 2010, at 2:15 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: >> P.S. Where does the alzabo fit into your description? And you forgot "love" from the "Also featuring..." bit. > High concept: "He's torturer with multiple personalities, it's a talking bear; they're cops!" Love that. But I'll go with John's version... alien. Just seems underwhelming for such a creepy thing. ...ryan --- ### John Watkins *30 Jul 2010, 18:25 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* > On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote: > > > Love that. > > But I'll go with John's version... alien. Just seems underwhelming for such > a creepy thing. "Soul-eating alien"? > ...ryan > _______________________________________________ --- ### Jeff Wilson *30 Jul 2010, 18:31 · in reply to John Watkins* > On 7/30/2010 1:25 PM, John Watkins wrote: > > > On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 2:23 PM, Ryan Dunn > wrote: > > > Love that. > > But I'll go with John's version... alien. Just seems underwhelming > for such a creepy thing. > > "Soul-eating alien"? "It's like Bubba Hotep, but instead of a mummy, think ginormous wolf-man with those weird black eyes" ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > ``` --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *30 Jul 2010, 18:34 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* > On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 11:31 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > "It's like Bubba Hotep, but instead of a mummy, think ginormous wolf-man > with those weird black eyes" I've always wondered how they pitched Bubba-Hotep. "Here we go: Undead Egyptian butt-sucker." ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### James Wynn *30 Jul 2010, 19:06 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* >> "It's like Bubba Hotep, but instead of a mummy, think ginormous wolf-man >> with those weird black eyes" >> > I've always wondered how they pitched Bubba-Hotep. > > "Here we go: Undead Egyptian butt-sucker." > What's to wonder? This pitch practically sells itself. u+16b9 --- ### David Stockhoff *31 Jul 2010, 18:06 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* And that's exactly what I fear from a movie adaptation. > Ryan Dunn wrote: > On Jul 30, 2010, at 8:55 AM, John Watkins wrote: > > >> If the coloring has some meaning beyond that particular to the torturers' guild (they torture people and seem to have some connection, literal or metaphoric, to Catholic priesthood, so are in black), then it must be read in connection with the robes of argent, the color more white than white, that Severian is about to put on at the end of Citadel. So I think a connection to the old sun and/or its black hole is probably intended. >> > Right, and in that sense, I can sort of hear Will Smith at the end of this journey, putting on the argent robe and saying something like: > > "We 'bout to change the sun, yo!" > > I can dig it. > > ...ryan > _______________________________________________ ---