{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5680", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5680, "subject": "Resurrections", "messages": 12, "voices": 6, "first": "2010-07-30T16:32:59+00:00", "last": "2010-08-01T17:40:41+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T16:32:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- I get the sense that the author is trying to convey that the various \n\"kinds of resurrection\" are a mortal projection; there is only one \nsource of the gift of life and that is the grace of the Increate. Then \nthere are people who presume to decide that the Increate hasn't given \nthem enough and will try to get more some other way, rather than living \nand sharing so that what they've been given *is* enough. This kind of \nsubstituion of one's judgment for that of the Increate is the first step \non the dark path that eventually leads the likes of Typhon and Ceryx to \nairs of godhood, the way Vodalus presumes to substitute himself for the \nAutarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSo, why doesn't Wolfe have Severian reject the Autarch's pharmicon at the\nlast second and have him find the true, Increate-given, path toward becoming\nthe New Sun and Conciliator? Are we to conclude that Urth itself has an \nallotted lifespan and it has no right to be reborn and all who assist Severian\nin this task are as sorcerous and evil as Vodalus and the Old Leech and others\nwho seek artificially extended life?\n \nI don't know, myself. I think there are some who take this sort of dismal view\nof the whole story. Severian as witless pinball bounced between evil antagonists. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T16:43:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 30, 2010, at 12:32 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nSo, why doesn't Wolfe have Severian reject the Autarch's pharmicon at the\nlast second and have him find the true, Increate-given, path toward becoming\nthe New Sun and Conciliator? Are we to conclude that Urth itself has an \nallotted lifespan and it has no right to be reborn and all who assist Severian\nin this task are as sorcerous and evil as Vodalus and the Old Leech and others\nwho seek artificially extended life?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee,\n\nAren't we supposed to get the vibe that \"the power was in Severian all the time, he just didn't know it?\"\n\nMeaning pharmacon or not, claw or not, he had these powers. I thought that was demonstrated with Triskele in a very clear way. Severian does strive at length to attribute powers to the claw, but that is a bit of a loophole that suggests it was Severian, not any other talisman/affectation, that beholds the power.\n\nSo the question would be, where do HIS powers come from? Is it part of him being a 2nd iteration of himself? The first having gained access to the corridors of time, gone back to become Conciliator, and the Severian we follow being a product of prior Severian achievements?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T16:58:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\n\n\nLee,\n\nAren't we supposed to get the vibe that \"the power was in Severian all the\ntime, he just didn't know it?\"\n\nMeaning pharmacon or not, claw or not, he had these powers. I thought that\nwas demonstrated with Triskele in a very clear way. Severian does strive at\nlength to attribute powers to the claw, but that is a bit of a loophole that\nsuggests it was Severian, not any other talisman/affectation, that beholds\nthe power.\n\nSo the question would be, where do HIS powers come from? Is it part of him\nbeing a 2nd iteration of himself? The first having gained access to the\ncorridors of time, gone back to become Conciliator, and the Severian we\nfollow being a product of prior Severian achievements?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My understanding.\n\nSeverian's superpowers come from the White Fountain. In Yesod, another\nuniverse entirely, the Autarch Severian is deemed worthy of linkage with the\nFountain. The Fountain, which was always already linked with Severian in\nYesod time, enters Briah sufficiently early so that its light reaches Urth\nat or around the time of Apu Punchau. The Autarch Severian, on the other\nhand, is returned to Briah during Typhon's time.\n\nSeverian always has some measure of superpowers when he is within the\n\"broadcast range\" of the influence of the Fountain, which coincides with the\nlight of the Fountain.\n\nThus young Severian, who has not yet become the Autarch in his personal\ntimeline, has superpowers--the light is hitting him, and with it whatever\ninfluence gives him personal powers. He is limited in using those powers\nbecause he doesn't know about them.\n\nLate in Citadel, the superpowered Severian cuts himself on a thorn. His\nblood transmits some measure of his power to the thorn. He keeps it as a\nmemorial of the Claw, a similar-looking thorn he once carried.\n\nAfter travelling to Yesod and being bound to the Fountain in his personal\ntimeline, he becomes aware of his powers and is far more adept with them,\neven to the degree that his is more apt to use them unconsciously.\n\nSuper Severian gives someone his bled-on thorn in Typhon's era. It is a\ntreasured relic that becomes the Claw. Later on in Briah's timeline, but\nearlier in Sev's personal timeline, he acquires the Claw, only powerful\nbecause of its linkage to the Sev who exists in Sev's future and Briah's\npast. Because the Claw has some measure of power on its own, and because\nSev has superpowers, it acts as a channel or focus for his powers--he\ndoesn't know he has powers but he believes it does. So he sometimes tries\nto use its powers, which is really him using his powers and incidentally\nmaking the Claw glow, but he's not quite sure of how it works." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "...ryan\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<14487915-C227-479B-9068-749607F6484B@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T17:03:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Jul 30, 2010, at 12:58 PM, John Watkins wrote:\nMy understanding.\n \nSeverian's superpowers come from the White Fountain. In Yesod, another universe entirely, the Autarch Severian is deemed worthy of linkage with the Fountain. The Fountain, which was always already linked with Severian in Yesod time, enters Briah sufficiently early so that its light reaches Urth at or around the time of Apu Punchau. The Autarch Severian, on the other hand, is returned to Briah during Typhon's time.\n \nSeverian always has some measure of superpowers when he is within the \"broadcast range\" of the influence of the Fountain, which coincides with the light of the Fountain.\n \nThus young Severian, who has not yet become the Autarch in his personal timeline, has superpowers--the light is hitting him, and with it whatever influence gives him personal powers. He is limited in using those powers because he doesn't know about them.\n \nLate in Citadel, the superpowered Severian cuts himself on a thorn. His blood transmits some measure of his power to the thorn. He keeps it as a memorial of the Claw, a similar-looking thorn he once carried.\n \nAfter travelling to Yesod and being bound to the Fountain in his personal timeline, he becomes aware of his powers and is far more adept with them, even to the degree that his is more apt to use them unconsciously.\n \nSuper Severian gives someone his bled-on thorn in Typhon's era. It is a treasured relic that becomes the Claw. Later on in Briah's timeline, but earlier in Sev's personal timeline, he acquires the Claw, only powerful because of its linkage to the Sev who exists in Sev's future and Briah's past. Because the Claw has some measure of power on its own, and because Sev has superpowers, it acts as a channel or focus for his powers--he doesn't know he has powers but he believes it does. So he sometimes tries to use its powers, which is really him using his powers and incidentally making the Claw glow, but he's not quite sure of how it works." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heheh. I think I somehow followed all of that, which is saying a lot about your articulateness, believe me.\n\nSo yes, the power was inside him (him being the Severian we are reading about). You traced its origins much better than I did, though to the same end.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5314C8.9000104@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T18:07:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/30/2010 11:32 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- I get the sense that the author is trying to convey that the various\n\"kinds of resurrection\" are a mortal projection; there is only one\nsource of the gift of life and that is the grace of the Increate. Then\nthere are people who presume to decide that the Increate hasn't given\nthem enough and will try to get more some other way, rather than living\nand sharing so that what they've been given *is* enough. This kind of\nsubstituion of one's judgment for that of the Increate is the first step\non the dark path that eventually leads the likes of Typhon and Ceryx to\nairs of godhood, the way Vodalus presumes to substitute himself for the\nAutarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, why doesn't Wolfe have Severian reject the Autarch's pharmicon at the\nlast second and have him find the true, Increate-given, path toward becoming\nthe New Sun and Conciliator? Are we to conclude that Urth itself has an\nallotted lifespan and it has no right to be reborn and all who assist Severian\nin this task are as sorcerous and evil as Vodalus and the Old Leech and others\nwho seek artificially extended life?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If there was a right to life from the Increate, it wouldn't be a gift, \nand there would be no grace in it.\n\nNo one's life is being artificially extended by the alzabo; the memory \nof the Autarch shares Severian, but the Autarch himself is dead. The \nalzabo eaters who are said to do it because they want more life than \nthey have are projecting, as I wrote before. If Sevrian's life is \nbettered in some way by the memories he has ingested, that is no more \ncondemnable than one's life being enriched by learning. The \nreprenhesible thing about it is that it may be done in violation of the \nperson's will, and that it involves eating part of a person. But babes \nfeed from their mother, and a pelican that wounds her breast to feed her \nchicks is held up as a sign of loyalty and service, and Christians are \nenjoined to eat and drink of the flesh and the blood of Jesus Christ.\n\nSo if the Increate's representative on Urth says, \"I call upon you to \neat my brain for the good all mankind,\" his good and faithful servant \nwho by a providence already has experience doing this sort of thing \ncorrectly says, \"Yes, sir!\"\n\nOr that's the way I see it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C531573.2000703@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T18:09:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/30/2010 11:43 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nSo the question would be, where do HIS powers come from? Is it part\nof him being a 2nd iteration of himself? The first having gained\naccess to the corridors of time, gone back to become Conciliator, and\nthe Severian we follow being a product of prior Severian\nachievements?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whatever the mechanism, the reference to Joseph's dream makes it pretty \nclear to me that he is correct in his feeling that it comes from the \nIncreate, like Joseph always claims of his gift of divination." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C54696B.5010005@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-31T18:20:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. In mythological terms, there are visible signs that someone \nwill become a god, because such is the nature of godhood. That's how \ngods can be born and yet still be gods---a narrative problem the Greeks \nconstantly had to fudge because they had no concept of time travel.\n\nArtifacts associated with gods, such as Apollo's lyre, Diana's bow, etc. \nwould become holy, but not terribly useful to anyone other than their \nowner. (At least the Claw doesn't kill anyone who tries to use it.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins wrote:\n\n\nOn Fri, Jul 30, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Ryan Dunn > wrote:\n\n\n\n \n Lee,\n\n Aren't we supposed to get the vibe that \"the power was in Severian\n all the time, he just didn't know it?\"\n\n Meaning pharmacon or not, claw or not, he had these powers. I\n thought that was demonstrated with Triskele in a very clear way.\n Severian does strive at length to attribute powers to the claw,\n but that is a bit of a loophole that suggests it was Severian, not\n any other talisman/affectation, that beholds the power.\n\n So the question would be, where do HIS powers come from? Is it\n part of him being a 2nd iteration of himself? The first having\n gained access to the corridors of time, gone back to become\n Conciliator, and the Severian we follow being a product of prior\n Severian achievements?\n\n \n \nMy understanding.\n \nSeverian's superpowers come from the White Fountain. In Yesod, \nanother universe entirely, the Autarch Severian is deemed worthy of \nlinkage with the Fountain. The Fountain, which was always already \nlinked with Severian in Yesod time, enters Briah sufficiently early so \nthat its light reaches Urth at or around the time of Apu Punchau. The \nAutarch Severian, on the other hand, is returned to Briah during \nTyphon's time.\n \nSeverian always has some measure of superpowers when he is within the \n\"broadcast range\" of the influence of the Fountain, which coincides \nwith the light of the Fountain.\n \nThus young Severian, who has not yet become the Autarch in his \npersonal timeline, has superpowers--the light is hitting him, and with \nit whatever influence gives him personal powers. He is limited in \nusing those powers because he doesn't know about them.\n \nLate in Citadel, the superpowered Severian cuts himself on a thorn. \nHis blood transmits some measure of his power to the thorn. He keeps \nit as a memorial of the Claw, a similar-looking thorn he once carried.\n \nAfter travelling to Yesod and being bound to the Fountain in his \npersonal timeline, he becomes aware of his powers and is far more \nadept with them, even to the degree that his is more apt to use them \nunconsciously.\n \nSuper Severian gives someone his bled-on thorn in Typhon's era. It is \na treasured relic that becomes the Claw. Later on in Briah's \ntimeline, but earlier in Sev's personal timeline, he acquires the \nClaw, only powerful because of its linkage to the Sev who exists in \nSev's future and Briah's past. Because the Claw has some measure of \npower on its own, and because Sev has superpowers, it acts as a \nchannel or focus for his powers--he doesn't know he has powers but he \nbelieves it does. So he sometimes tries to use its powers, which is \nreally him using his powers and incidentally making the Claw glow, but \nhe's not quite sure of how it works.\n \n\n ...ryan\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C546B19.1020800@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-31T18:27:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C531573.2000703@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's the reference to Joseph's dream?\n\nAnd who is the Old Leech everyone is talking about?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/30/2010 11:43 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So the question would be, where do HIS powers come from? Is it part\nof him being a 2nd iteration of himself? The first having gained\naccess to the corridors of time, gone back to become Conciliator, and\nthe Severian we follow being a product of prior Severian\nachievements?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whatever the mechanism, the reference to Joseph's dream makes it \npretty clear to me that he is correct in his feeling that it comes \nfrom the Increate, like Joseph always claims of his gift of divination." } ] }, { "message_id": "<222417.69249.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T03:47:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C546B19.1020800@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: David Stockhoff \nWhat's the reference to Joseph's dream?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't remember that either." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And who is the Old Leech everyone is talking about?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The doctor who works for Vodalus and treats Severian in /Citadel/, Ch. XXVI. \nThe phrase \"old leech\" is in the text.\n\nThanks to Jeff Wilson for pointing that Severian's memory is connected with his \nability to heal by turning back time. I'd never made that connection.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C553AAC.9090508@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T09:13:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C546B19.1020800@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/31/2010 1:27 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhat's the reference to Joseph's dream?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In URTH XXXVIII, while Severian is also a seer imprisoned by the \nauthorities, there is a literal biblical reference to it, immediately \nfollowed by a dream with Revelations imagery, or maybe Peter's:\n\n\"In those moments I knew my power, that could draw whole worlds to me \nand incremate them as an artist burns his earths for pigments. In the \nbrown book, now lost, that I carried and read so long that at last I had \ncommitted to memory its whole contents (though they had once seemed \ninexhaustible) there is this passage: 'Behold, I have dreamed a dream \nmore; the sun and the moon and eleven stars made obeisance to me.' Its \nwords show plainly how much wiser the peoples of ages long past were \nthan we are now; not for nothing is that book titled The Book of the \nWonders of Urth and Sky.\n\"I too dreamed a dream. I dreamed that I called the power of my star \ndown upon myself, and rising, crossed (Thecla as well as Severian) to \nour barred door, and grasping its bars, bent them until we could easily \nhave passed between them. But when we bent them it seemed we parted a \ncurtain, and beyond it beheld a second curtain and Tzadkiel, neither \nlarger than ourselves nor smaller, with the dirk afire. \"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And who is the Old Leech everyone is talking about?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He appears early in CITADEL XXVI; while treating Severian for his \ninjuries at the ziggurat, he mentions being from Nessus and seems to be \na medical researcher ministering to the rebels' steady supply of trauma \ncases presumably for the opportunity to experiment on the otherwise \nhopeless patients. Maybe some not so hopeless, since he seems to have \nproduced a boy that can be used to transfuse a full-gown man and recover \nin a day or less. Mantis seems to think it's possible he sacrifices \nchildren for for ritual benefit.\n\nHe's really old, and might be an Inire disguise except that in XXIX an \nold, bent and deformed shaman in a mask with a monkey-headed staff shows \nup in the same precession at the same time, and who appears to be the \nperson Severian is thinking of later when he tells Rudesind he knows his \nmaster was with him in the jungle." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C553AFF.8030004@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T09:14:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C553AAC.9090508@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2010 4:13 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nHe's really old, and might be an Inire disguise except that in XXIX an\nold, bent and deformed shaman in a mask with a monkey-headed staff shows\nup in the same precession at the same time, and who appears to be the\nperson Severian is thinking of later when he tells Rudesind he knows his\nmaster was with him in the jungle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm sorry, the shaman shows up in chapter XXVII." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55B198.4000005@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T17:40:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C553AAC.9090508@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, very good." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/31/2010 1:27 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What's the reference to Joseph's dream?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In URTH XXXVIII, while Severian is also a seer imprisoned by the \nauthorities, there is a literal biblical reference to it, immediately \nfollowed by a dream with Revelations imagery, or maybe Peter's:\n\n\"In those moments I knew my power, that could draw whole worlds to me \nand incremate them as an artist burns his earths for pigments. In the \nbrown book, now lost, that I carried and read so long that at last I \nhad committed to memory its whole contents (though they had once \nseemed inexhaustible) there is this passage: 'Behold, I have dreamed a \ndream more; the sun and the moon and eleven stars made obeisance to \nme.' Its words show plainly how much wiser the peoples of ages long \npast were than we are now; not for nothing is that book titled The \nBook of the Wonders of Urth and Sky.\n\"I too dreamed a dream. I dreamed that I called the power of my star \ndown upon myself, and rising, crossed (Thecla as well as Severian) to \nour barred door, and grasping its bars, bent them until we could \neasily have passed between them. But when we bent them it seemed we \nparted a curtain, and beyond it beheld a second curtain and Tzadkiel, \nneither larger than ourselves nor smaller, with the dirk afire. \"" } ] } ] }