{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5681", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5681, "subject": "(no subject)", "messages": 34, "voices": 13, "first": "2010-07-30T19:54:58+00:00", "last": "2010-08-02T20:11:43+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T19:54:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, alzabo, avern, abaia, arioch..so many alien \"a's\" on Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- No one's life is being artificially extended by the alzabo;\nthe memory of the Autarch shares Severian, but the Autarch himself is dead. \nThe alzabo eaters who are said to do it because they want more life than \nthey have are projecting, as I wrote before. If Sevrian's life is \nbettered in some way by the memories he has ingested, that is no more \ncondemnable than one's life being enriched by learning. The \nreprenhesible thing about it is that it may be done in violation of the \nperson's will, and that it involves eating part of a person. But babes \nfeed from their mother, and a pelican that wounds her breast to feed her \nchicks is held up as a sign of loyalty and service, and Christians are \nenjoined to eat and drink of the flesh and the blood of Jesus Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWolfe himself, in an interview, calls the Vodalus feast a \"satanic \neucharist\". But we are to take Severian's feast on the old Autarch's\nbrain as being divine? I dunno. Perhaps as a non-Catholic and non-\nChristian I don't have the right background to form an educated \nopinion. But that seems like an awfully icky way to gain grace.\n \nWhen Severian receives his new consciousness I seem to remember him\nfeeling a flood of relief as all the inhabitants of the old Autarch\nfind that they have not perished in his old body but have found new \nexistence in Severian. From this I get the sense that this process is\na form of artificially prolonged life and perhaps not one to be envied. \n \nRegarding the learning which is involved in the eating of the dead, from\nUltan, to Vodalus to the old Leech, I get the impression that the learning\nis tainted in some way. Severian doesn't seem to put much of his newly\nacquired wisdom to good use either, aside from learning the secret words \nneeded to be autarch.\n \nI'm not an expert on such things but my impression is that Wolfe finds not\nonly pagan mythology to be the competitor of early Christianity but gnosticism\nalso, with its reliance on arcane knowledge and secrets. I get the impression\nthat brain eating and the resultant learning and life/consciousness \nextending is a corrupt part of the world of Urth which will not be continued \non Ushas. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T19:59:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------\nYeah, alzabo, avern, abaia, arioch..so many alien \"a's\" on Urth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- No one's life is being artificially extended by the alzabo;\nthe memory of the Autarch shares Severian, but the Autarch himself is dead.\nThe alzabo eaters who are said to do it because they want more life than\nthey have are projecting, as I wrote before. If Sevrian's life is\nbettered in some way by the memories he has ingested, that is no more\ncondemnable than one's life being enriched by learning. The\nreprenhesible thing about it is that it may be done in violation of the\nperson's will, and that it involves eating part of a person. But babes\nfeed from their mother, and a pelican that wounds her breast to feed her\nchicks is held up as a sign of loyalty and service, and Christians are\nenjoined to eat and drink of the flesh and the blood of Jesus Christ." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n Wolfe himself refers to the Vodalus feast as a \"satanic eucharist\". But \n we are to take Severian's feast on the old Autarch's\n brain as being divine? I dunno. Perhaps as a non-Catholic and non-\n Christian I don't have the right background to form an educated\n opinion. But that seems like an awfully icky way to gain grace.\n \n When Severian receives his new consciousness I seem to remember him\n feeling a flood of relief from all the inhabitants of the old Autarch\n as they find that they have not perished in the old body but have found new\n existence in Severian. From this I get the sense that this process is\n a form of artificially prolonged life and perhaps not one to be envied.\n \n Regarding the learning which is involved in the eating of the dead, from\n Ultan, to Vodalus to the old Leech, I get the impression that the learning\n is tainted in some way. Severian doesn't seem to put much of his newly\n acquired wisdom to good use either, aside from learning the secret words\n needed to be autarch.\n \n I'm not an expert on such things but my impression is that Wolfe finds not\n only pagan mythology to be the competitor of early Christianity but gnosticism\n also, with its reliance on arcane knowledge and secrets. I get the impression\n that brain eating and the resultant learning and life/consciousness\n extending is a corrupt part of the world of Urth which will not be continued\n on Ushas. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-30T22:23:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) (no subject)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe himself, in an interview, calls the Vodalus feast a \"satanic\neucharist\". But we are to take Severian's feast on the old Autarch's\nbrain as being divine? I dunno. Perhaps as a non-Catholic and non-\nChristian I don't have the right background to form an educated\nopinion. But that seems like an awfully icky way to gain grace." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course it's satanic, Vodalus is a satanic figure and he's twisting any\nvirtue the analept might have into part of his mockery of communion.\nBut the Increate may validate even a false, incomplete sacrament." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Severian receives his new consciousness I seem to remember him\nfeeling a flood of relief as all the inhabitants of the old Autarch\nfind that they have not perished in his old body but have found new\nexistence in Severian. From this I get the sense that this process is\na form of artificially prolonged life and perhaps not one to be envied." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This could be from duty and from a hope of redemption, that they can\ncontinue to serve the cause of Urth, instead of ending in failure. And it\ncould be some projection on Sev's part, relieved that he didn't become a\npuppet of the dozens of imperious minds of his predecessors. It's his\nglands that are still real, after all.\n\nSomething in the process may keep the duplicated personalities amiable to\nthe situation, the way the Casdoe's husband's imprint wasn't upset or\nparticularly concerned about having been eaten or helping the alzabo kill\nand eat the rest of his family." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not an expert on such things but my impression is that Wolfe finds not\nonly pagan mythology to be the competitor of early Christianity but\ngnosticism\nalso, with its reliance on arcane knowledge and secrets. I get the\nimpression\nthat brain eating and the resultant learning and life/consciousness\nextending is a corrupt part of the world of Urth which will not be\ncontinued\non Ushas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hopefully, it won't have to be, since it will no longer be necessary. But\nremember the big theme: even evil men and abhorrent deeds serve the good\nof the Increate." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-31T08:01:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- This could be from duty and from a hope of redemption, that they can\ncontinue to serve the cause of Urth, instead of ending in failure. And it\ncould be some projection on Sev's part, relieved that he didn't become a\npuppet of the dozens of imperious minds of his predecessors. It's his\nglands that are still real, after all. Something in the process may keep the\nduplicated personalities amiable to the situation, the way the Casdoe's husband's\nimprint wasn't upset or particularly concerned about having been eaten or helping\nthe alzabo kill and eat the rest of his family." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think this is a very apt comparison which I haven't seen made before.\n \nI can't help but think that horror was intended in the scene where Becan is so \nimmediately happy and accepting of his new existence as chunks of chewed meat in the \nAlzabo digestive system and as a (presumably) temporary neural circuit that he is\nwillingly desirous that his family join him in the belly of the beast.\n \nYet under similar circumstances we are supposed to interpret rapture instead of \nhorror for the beings living on in Severian? I just don't know. Perhaps it is meant\nto be an individual interpretation. But my impression is that for Thecla and for the\nothers in Severian's head it isn't a divine experience. At best they all remain\nlonely and unfulfilled. We don't hear much from them in UotNS. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C53EFB0.7000501@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-07-31T09:41:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/31/2010 3:01 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- This could be from duty and from a hope of redemption, that they can\ncontinue to serve the cause of Urth, instead of ending in failure. And it\ncould be some projection on Sev's part, relieved that he didn't become a\npuppet of the dozens of imperious minds of his predecessors. It's his\nglands that are still real, after all. Something in the process may keep the\nduplicated personalities amiable to the situation, the way the Casdoe's husband's\nimprint wasn't upset or particularly concerned about having been eaten or helping\nthe alzabo kill and eat the rest of his family." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this is a very apt comparison which I haven't seen made before.\n\nI can't help but think that horror was intended in the scene where Becan is so\nimmediately happy and accepting of his new existence as chunks of chewed meat in the\nAlzabo digestive system and as a (presumably) temporary neural circuit that he is\nwillingly desirous that his family join him in the belly of the beast." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree, the horror of not-rightness is very strong when the beast firs \nspeaks in the little girl's voice. But horror eventually gives way to \nreasoning that it must be that way, or the victim's unalterted attitude \nwould hinder it to the point of suicide or starvation. This corruption \nof the victim's personhood is partly why I don't consider the remnant \nmemories a survival of the original victim any more than any other \nrecord or memory of their living existence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yet under similar circumstances we are supposed to interpret rapture instead of\nhorror for the beings living on in Severian? I just don't know. Perhaps it is meant\nto be an individual interpretation. But my impression is that for Thecla and for the\nothers in Severian's head it isn't a divine experience. At best they all remain\nlonely and unfulfilled. We don't hear much from them in UotNS. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm having cognitive dissonance with the objective use of \"they\" and \ntheir experiences. The imprint of each mind is associated with the \nindividual, but it doesn't correspond one for one with them. Each hand \nhas the whole life, after all, so they can't both be the individual. We \nmight call them dividuals, or multiplicuals.\n\nWhatever \"they\" are, I don't think they are meant to have a truly \nobjective identity and feelings apart from Severian, any more than the \naquastors have from their Yesodi controllers. Maybe an eidolon, which \nhas to be reconstructed with as perfect fidelity to the original as \npossible, would count as \"an\" objective person, if not the same \nobjective person." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-07-31T17:52:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C53EFB0.7000501@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 2:41 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nWhatever \"they\" are, I don't think they are meant to have a truly objective\nidentity and feelings apart from Severian, any more than the aquastors have\nfrom their Yesodi controllers. Maybe an eidolon, which has to be\nreconstructed with as perfect fidelity to the original as possible, would\ncount as \"an\" objective person, if not the same objective person." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Actually I suspect that Severian is supposed to be an exception to the\ngeneral principle you laid down (and I agree with). Through his Magic\nResurrection Ability, Thecla at least lives again in him. I'm not so\nsure about the prior Autarchs." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C546D20.8040303@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-07-31T18:36:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thecla and Severian, in Severian, experience a rapture that is \nspecifically compared to the local version of \"heaven.\" It is temporary, \nof course, but it is not presented as false.\n\nI learned that I had been more to her than I had ever guessed, and at \nlast fell into a sleep in which my dreams were all of her. Not memories \nmerely memories I had possessed in plenty before. I held her poor, cold \nhands in mine, and I no longer wore the rags of an apprentice, nor the \nfuligin of a journeyman. We were one, naked and happy and clean, and we \nknew that she was no more and that I still lived, and we struggled \nagainst neither of those things, but with woven hair read from a single \nbook and talked and sang of other matters.\n\n12 THE NOTULES\n\nI came from my dreams of Thecla directly to the morning. At one instant \nwe walked mutely together in what surely must have been the paradise the \nNew Sun is said to open to all who, in their final moments, call upon \nhim; and though the wise teach that it is closed to those who are their \nown executioners, yet I cannot but think that he who forgives so much \nmust sometimes forgive that as well. At the next, I was aware of cold \nand unwelcome light, and the piping of birds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- This could be from duty and from a hope of redemption, that they can\ncontinue to serve the cause of Urth, instead of ending in failure. And it\ncould be some projection on Sev's part, relieved that he didn't become a\npuppet of the dozens of imperious minds of his predecessors. It's his\nglands that are still real, after all. Something in the process may keep the\nduplicated personalities amiable to the situation, the way the Casdoe's husband's\nimprint wasn't upset or particularly concerned about having been eaten or helping\nthe alzabo kill and eat the rest of his family.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI think this is a very apt comparison which I haven't seen made before.\n \nI can't help but think that horror was intended in the scene where Becan is so \nimmediately happy and accepting of his new existence as chunks of chewed meat in the \nAlzabo digestive system and as a (presumably) temporary neural circuit that he is\nwillingly desirous that his family join him in the belly of the beast.\n \nYet under similar circumstances we are supposed to interpret rapture instead of \nhorror for the beings living on in Severian? I just don't know. Perhaps it is meant\nto be an individual interpretation. But my impression is that for Thecla and for the\nothers in Severian's head it isn't a divine experience. At best they all remain\nlonely and unfulfilled. We don't hear much from them in UotNS. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C54E820.6070406@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T03:21:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/31/2010 12:52 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 2:41 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whatever \"they\" are, I don't think they are meant to have a truly objective\nidentity and feelings apart from Severian, any more than the aquastors have\nfrom their Yesodi controllers. Maybe an eidolon, which has to be\nreconstructed with as perfect fidelity to the original as possible, would\ncount as \"an\" objective person, if not the same objective person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually I suspect that Severian is supposed to be an exception to the\ngeneral principle you laid down (and I agree with). Through his Magic\nResurrection Ability, Thecla at least lives again in him. I'm not so\nsure about the prior Autarchs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His healing and resurective ability is supposed to work via short-term \nbending back time, isn't it? He meditates on the limits it might have \nover the carnage at the final battle with the Alzabo.\n\nSev's phenomenal power of memory is a similar but distinct faculty for \nrecalling what used to be, and while it is inferior for the purpose of \nraising the dead it is obviously superior for reviving their \nexperiences. This makes it a great force for extending the good the \ndonors may have done, allowing *it* to live on rather than being \ninterred with their bones." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C54F396.70403@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T04:09:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C546D20.8040303@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/31/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThecla and Severian, in Severian, experience a rapture that is\nspecifically compared to the local version of \"heaven.\" It is temporary,\nof course, but it is not presented as false." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's still subject to Severian's bias. Beccan's lingering imprint was \nalso happy at being reunited with his daughter, and was eager to have \nthe rest of the family join them in the beast's belly. With Severian's \nvivid recall magnifying that induced sense of well-being and compoudning \nit with his natural joy at what he takes as reunion with his first love, \nwith no immediate downside, it is not surprising he records it as \nrapturous." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55B9C1.2060902@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T18:15:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 7/31/2010 12:52 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 2:41 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Whatever \"they\" are, I don't think they are meant to have a truly objective\nidentity and feelings apart from Severian, any more than the aquastors have\nfrom their Yesodi controllers. Maybe an eidolon, which has to be\nreconstructed with as perfect fidelity to the original as possible, would\ncount as \"an\" objective person, if not the same objective person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Actually I suspect that Severian is supposed to be an exception to the\ngeneral principle you laid down (and I agree with). Through his Magic\nResurrection Ability, Thecla at least lives again in him. I'm not so\nsure about the prior Autarchs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The old Autarch does claim he will live, and re-reading reveals his \nmention of cells that will take up residence in Severian's body. So \ntechnically, some living tissue may survive though the mandrake in the \nAutarch's Citadel quarters disagrees that constitutes life.\n\nThere are said to be hundreds of personalities, but a thousand years is \nnot really long enough for that many Autarchs. The old leech says that \nmany men of learning use the alzabo extract, and \"confine ourselves to \nthe most retentive tissues.\" The old Autarch says \"The drug is in the \nvial I wear at my neck, and that blade will split the bones of my skull \nlike pine. I have had occasion to use it, and I promise it.\"\n\nSo the Autarchs may have occasion to use the analeptic to add other \nminds to theirs outside the line of succession. It would seem the ideal \nway to interrogate a subject whose debrief must be absolutely reliable \nor may involve complex and nuanced answers, but the time to recover from \nuse of the drug would make it difficult to schedule. Still, I don't \nthink it is something that would go on if the subjects literally lived \non in the host, with significant volition and initiative. Sev records \nThecla acting in his absence, but that still remains but a single will \neven if it is confused about which set of memories it should act on." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55BE91.4000702@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T18:36:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C55B9C1.2060902@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 7/31/2010 12:52 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 2:41 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Whatever \"they\" are, I don't think they are meant to have a truly \nobjective\nidentity and feelings apart from Severian, any more than the \naquastors have\nfrom their Yesodi controllers. Maybe an eidolon, which has to be\nreconstructed with as perfect fidelity to the original as possible, \nwould\ncount as \"an\" objective person, if not the same objective person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually I suspect that Severian is supposed to be an exception to the\ngeneral principle you laid down (and I agree with). Through his Magic\nResurrection Ability, Thecla at least lives again in him. I'm not so\nsure about the prior Autarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The old Autarch does claim he will live, and re-reading reveals his \nmention of cells that will take up residence in Severian's body. So \ntechnically, some living tissue may survive though the mandrake in the \nAutarch's Citadel quarters disagrees that constitutes life.\n\nThere are said to be hundreds of personalities, but a thousand years \nis not really long enough for that many Autarchs. The old leech says \nthat many men of learning use the alzabo extract, and \"confine \nourselves to the most retentive tissues.\" The old Autarch says \"The \ndrug is in the vial I wear at my neck, and that blade will split the \nbones of my skull like pine. I have had occasion to use it, and I \npromise it.\"\n\nSo the Autarchs may have occasion to use the analeptic to add other \nminds to theirs outside the line of succession. It would seem the \nideal way to interrogate a subject whose debrief must be absolutely \nreliable or may involve complex and nuanced answers, but the time to \nrecover from use of the drug would make it difficult to schedule. \nStill, I don't think it is something that would go on if the subjects \nliterally lived on in the host, with significant volition and \ninitiative. Sev records Thecla acting in his absence, but that still \nremains but a single will even if it is confused about which set of \nmemories it should act on." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55DAB5.4080705@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T20:36:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C55BE91.4000702@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSome autarchs may have ruled for only a week." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned a \nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha dynasty \nended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day apiece. \nThese rates can't be sustained with anything like stability, and are \nmore than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who come to the \nthrone young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say, and \nYmar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as \nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and commands, \neven if he didn't actually do or complete all of them. This leaves about \nnine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds the Old Autarch spoke \nof, surely they can do better than that? In the 900 years following the \nNorman Conquest there were only 45 English monarchs." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<818d0bec294969e18ad3a48d4f8ba78c.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T20:40:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C55BE91.4000702@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In very deed.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week.\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 7/31/2010 12:52 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Sat, Jul 31, 2010 at 2:41 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Whatever \"they\" are, I don't think they are meant to have a truly\nobjective\nidentity and feelings apart from Severian, any more than the\naquastors have\nfrom their Yesodi controllers. Maybe an eidolon, which has to be\nreconstructed with as perfect fidelity to the original as possible,\nwould\ncount as \"an\" objective person, if not the same objective person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Actually I suspect that Severian is supposed to be an exception to the\ngeneral principle you laid down (and I agree with). Through his Magic\nResurrection Ability, Thecla at least lives again in him. I'm not so\nsure about the prior Autarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The old Autarch does claim he will live, and re-reading reveals his\nmention of cells that will take up residence in Severian's body. So\ntechnically, some living tissue may survive though the mandrake in the\nAutarch's Citadel quarters disagrees that constitutes life.\n\nThere are said to be hundreds of personalities, but a thousand years\nis not really long enough for that many Autarchs. The old leech says\nthat many men of learning use the alzabo extract, and \"confine\nourselves to the most retentive tissues.\" The old Autarch says \"The\ndrug is in the vial I wear at my neck, and that blade will split the\nbones of my skull like pine. I have had occasion to use it, and I\npromise it.\"\n\nSo the Autarchs may have occasion to use the analeptic to add other\nminds to theirs outside the line of succession. It would seem the\nideal way to interrogate a subject whose debrief must be absolutely\nreliable or may involve complex and nuanced answers, but the time to\nrecover from use of the drug would make it difficult to schedule.\nStill, I don't think it is something that would go on if the subjects\nliterally lived on in the host, with significant volition and\ninitiative. Sev records Thecla acting in his absence, but that still\nremains but a single will even if it is confused about which set of\nmemories it should act on." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55ECE0.7080900@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T21:53:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C55DAB5.4080705@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years. If \n20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180 \nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the average. \nIt's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch, all \nbut the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which is \nexactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch, by \ncontrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is why. \nIf only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only about \n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more \nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned a \nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha dynasty \nended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day \napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like stability, \nand are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who \ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say, and \nYmar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as \nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and \ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them. This \nleaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds the \nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the 900 \nyears following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English monarchs." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55F561.7000404@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-01T22:29:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C55ECE0.7080900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time. Did no \none think of going there?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\n200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years. If\n20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the average.\nIt's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch, all\nbut the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which is\nexactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch, by\ncontrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is why.\nIf only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only about\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned a\nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha dynasty\nended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day\napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like stability,\nand are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who\ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say, and\nYmar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as\nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and\ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them. This\nleaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds the\nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the 900\nyears following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English monarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C55FF58.50309@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T23:12:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C55F561.7000404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Presumably it was far from where anyone would normally go." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAnd isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time. Did \nno one think of going there?)\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years. If\n20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the average.\nIt's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch, all\nbut the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which is\nexactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch, by\ncontrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is why.\nIf only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only about\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned a\nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha dynasty\nended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day\napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like stability,\nand are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who\ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say, and\nYmar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as\nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and\ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them. This\nleaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds the\nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the 900\nyears following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English \nmonarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<516976a321a169d5057bbb8af8ab45c1.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-01T23:47:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C55FF58.50309@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And a society that is physically deteriorating due to climate change, that\nis also in the middle of a huge war, tends not support sports such as\nrecreational mountain climbing.\n\nWhy do you always presume, Stockhoff?\n\nDon't you ever know?\n\nDo you believe that folks don't notice you saying nasty things whenever I\nask a question you don't wish to answer?\n\nHow stupid are you, exactly?\n\nI keep going back and forth between you and the JW's in my perennial urth\nlist dumbest monkey test.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Presumably it was far from where anyone would normally go.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time. Did\nno one think of going there?)\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years. If\n20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the average.\nIt's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch, all\nbut the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which is\nexactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch, by\ncontrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is why.\nIf only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only\nabout\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned a\nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha dynasty\nended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day\napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like stability,\nand are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who\ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say, and\nYmar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as\nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and\ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them. This\nleaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds the\nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the 900\nyears following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English\nmonarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5609D7.5000409@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-01T23:57:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<516976a321a169d5057bbb8af8ab45c1.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quote me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nAnd a society that is physically deteriorating due to climate change, that\nis also in the middle of a huge war, tends not support sports such as\nrecreational mountain climbing.\n\nWhy do you always presume, Stockhoff?\n\nDon't you ever know?\n\nDo you believe that folks don't notice you saying nasty things whenever I\nask a question you don't wish to answer?\n\nHow stupid are you, exactly?\n\nI keep going back and forth between you and the JW's in my perennial urth\nlist dumbest monkey test.\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Presumably it was far from where anyone would normally go.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time. Did\nno one think of going there?)\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years. If\n20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the average.\nIt's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch, all\nbut the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which is\nexactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch, by\ncontrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is why.\nIf only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only\nabout\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned a\nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha dynasty\nended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day\napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like stability,\nand are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who\ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say, and\nYmar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as\nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and\ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them. This\nleaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds the\nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the 900\nyears following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English\nmonarchs.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<686883e055a605b72377f321ca346fea.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-02T00:17:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C5609D7.5000409@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have no intention of doing so.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Quote me.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And a society that is physically deteriorating due to climate change,\nthat\nis also in the middle of a huge war, tends not support sports such as\nrecreational mountain climbing.\n\nWhy do you always presume, Stockhoff?\n\nDon't you ever know?\n\nDo you believe that folks don't notice you saying nasty things whenever\nI\nask a question you don't wish to answer?\n\nHow stupid are you, exactly?\n\nI keep going back and forth between you and the JW's in my perennial\nurth\nlist dumbest monkey test.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Presumably it was far from where anyone would normally go.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time. Did\nno one think of going there?)\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years.\nIf\n20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the\naverage.\nIt's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch,\nall\nbut the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which is\nexactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch,\nby\ncontrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is\nwhy.\nIf only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only\nabout\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned a\nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha\ndynasty\nended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day\napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like stability,\nand are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who\ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say,\nand\nYmar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as\nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and\ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them.\nThis\nleaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds the\nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the\n900\nyears following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English\nmonarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-02T00:36:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<516976a321a169d5057bbb8af8ab45c1.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are an unpleasant aspect of this list that most of us are just putting\nup with. I wish you would refrain from personal insults or intentionally\nenigmatic digressions. We'd all be better off." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 7:47 PM, wrote:\nAnd a society that is physically deteriorating due to climate change, that\nis also in the middle of a huge war, tends not support sports such as\nrecreational mountain climbing.\n\nWhy do you always presume, Stockhoff?\n\nDon't you ever know?\n\nDo you believe that folks don't notice you saying nasty things whenever I\nask a question you don't wish to answer?\n\nHow stupid are you, exactly?\n\nI keep going back and forth between you and the JW's in my perennial urth\nlist dumbest monkey test.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Presumably it was far from where anyone would normally go.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time. Did\nno one think of going there?)\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years. If\n20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the average.\nIt's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch, all\nbut the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which is\nexactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch, by\ncontrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is why.\nIf only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only\nabout\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned a\nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha dynasty\nended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day\napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like stability,\nand are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who\ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say, and\nYmar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as\nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and\ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them. This\nleaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds the\nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the 900\nyears following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English\nmonarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6b9757df898eb12a56e9c755618f2859.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-02T00:45:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The feeling is quiet mutual.\n\nMost of us == who? Most of the voices in your head?\n\nHow do you know that most of the list is just putting up with me?\n\nYou have taken a survey?\n\nMight you publish your results here?\n\nThere are several noninnumerates here, one or more of whom may comment\nupon your statistics: I may myself.\n\nIn the meantime, if you wish to affect my involuntary removal from this\nlist, I suggest that you apply to the owner of the list, and not to me,\nwho - I am not sure if you get this - does not respect you and will not do\nwhat you want me to do.\n\nDo you have any questions?\n\n.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You are an unpleasant aspect of this list that most of us are just putting\nup with. I wish you would refrain from personal insults or intentionally\nenigmatic digressions. We'd all be better off.\n\nOn Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 7:47 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And a society that is physically deteriorating due to climate change,\nthat\nis also in the middle of a huge war, tends not support sports such as\nrecreational mountain climbing.\n\nWhy do you always presume, Stockhoff?\n\nDon't you ever know?\n\nDo you believe that folks don't notice you saying nasty things whenever\nI\nask a question you don't wish to answer?\n\nHow stupid are you, exactly?\n\nI keep going back and forth between you and the JW's in my perennial\nurth\nlist dumbest monkey test.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Presumably it was far from where anyone would normally go.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Did\nno one think of going there?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If\n20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the\naverage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "It's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch,\nall\nbut the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which\nis\nexactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch,\nby\ncontrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is\nwhy.\nIf only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only\nabout\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned a\nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha\ndynasty\nended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day\napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like\nstability,\nand are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who\ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say,\nand\nYmar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as\nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and\ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This\nleaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds the\nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the\n900\nyears following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English\nmonarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5617EF.9030308@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-02T00:57:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<6b9757df898eb12a56e9c755618f2859.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I second John. That's 2." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThe feeling is quiet mutual.\n\nMost of us == who? Most of the voices in your head?\n\nHow do you know that most of the list is just putting up with me?\n\nYou have taken a survey?\n\nMight you publish your results here?\n\nThere are several noninnumerates here, one or more of whom may comment\nupon your statistics: I may myself.\n\nIn the meantime, if you wish to affect my involuntary removal from this\nlist, I suggest that you apply to the owner of the list, and not to me,\nwho - I am not sure if you get this - does not respect you and will not do\nwhat you want me to do.\n\nDo you have any questions?\n\n.\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You are an unpleasant aspect of this list that most of us are just putting\nup with. I wish you would refrain from personal insults or intentionally\nenigmatic digressions. We'd all be better off.\n\nOn Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 7:47 PM, wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And a society that is physically deteriorating due to climate change,\nthat\nis also in the middle of a huge war, tends not support sports such as\nrecreational mountain climbing.\n\nWhy do you always presume, Stockhoff?\n\nDon't you ever know?\n\nDo you believe that folks don't notice you saying nasty things whenever\nI\nask a question you don't wish to answer?\n\nHow stupid are you, exactly?\n\nI keep going back and forth between you and the JW's in my perennial\nurth\nlist dumbest monkey test.\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Presumably it was far from where anyone would normally go.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Did\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "no one think of going there?)\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "average.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "It's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch,\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "all\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "but the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "is\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "exactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch,\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "by\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "contrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "why.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "If only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only\nabout\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned a\nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "dynasty\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "ended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day\napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "stability,\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "and are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who\ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say,\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "and\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "Ymar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as\nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and\ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "leaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds the\nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "900\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "years following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English\nmonarchs.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<539DE081-0C12-4EAE-866B-EA6E0573F013@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Robert Thornton", "address": "oblate777 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-02T01:00:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C5617EF.9030308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Josh,\n\nWhen I asked you politely to focus on Wolfe instead of other issues, note that no one condemned you or supported you.\n\nThe jury is still out I think. As for my own opinion--count me in, Mr. Stockhoff.\n\nRob" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 1, 2010, at 8:57 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nI second John. That's 2.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The feeling is quiet mutual.\n\nMost of us == who? Most of the voices in your head?\n\nHow do you know that most of the list is just putting up with me?\n\nYou have taken a survey?\n\nMight you publish your results here?\n\nThere are several noninnumerates here, one or more of whom may comment\nupon your statistics: I may myself.\n\nIn the meantime, if you wish to affect my involuntary removal from this\nlist, I suggest that you apply to the owner of the list, and not to me,\nwho - I am not sure if you get this - does not respect you and will not do\nwhat you want me to do.\n\nDo you have any questions?\n\n.\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You are an unpleasant aspect of this list that most of us are just putting\nup with. I wish you would refrain from personal insults or intentionally\nenigmatic digressions. We'd all be better off.\n\nOn Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 7:47 PM, wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And a society that is physically deteriorating due to climate change,\nthat\nis also in the middle of a huge war, tends not support sports such as\nrecreational mountain climbing.\n\nWhy do you always presume, Stockhoff?\n\nDon't you ever know?\n\nDo you believe that folks don't notice you saying nasty things whenever\nI\nask a question you don't wish to answer?\n\nHow stupid are you, exactly?\n\nI keep going back and forth between you and the JW's in my perennial\nurth\nlist dumbest monkey test.\n\n.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Presumably it was far from where anyone would normally go.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "And isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Did\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "no one think of going there?)\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "average.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "It's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch,\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "all\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "but the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "is\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "exactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch,\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "by\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "contrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "why.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "If only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only\nabout\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned a\nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "dynasty\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "ended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day\napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "stability,\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "and are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who\ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say,\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "and\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Ymar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as\nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and\ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "This\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "leaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds the\nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "900\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "years following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English\nmonarchs.\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<51677DE8-ED1B-412F-AAEA-F0E9370B4088@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Eoff", "address": "jeffeoff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-02T01:08:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<6b9757df898eb12a56e9c755618f2859.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm just putting up with you. \n\nI presumed you suffer from Aspergers to be honest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 1, 2010, at 8:45 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThe feeling is quiet mutual.\n\nMost of us == who? Most of the voices in your head?\n\nHow do you know that most of the list is just putting up with me?\n\nYou have taken a survey?\n\nMight you publish your results here?\n\nThere are several noninnumerates here, one or more of whom may comment\nupon your statistics: I may myself.\n\nIn the meantime, if you wish to affect my involuntary removal from this\nlist, I suggest that you apply to the owner of the list, and not to me,\nwho - I am not sure if you get this - does not respect you and will not do\nwhat you want me to do.\n\nDo you have any questions?\n\n.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You are an unpleasant aspect of this list that most of us are just putting\nup with. I wish you would refrain from personal insults or intentionally\nenigmatic digressions. We'd all be better off.\n\nOn Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 7:47 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And a society that is physically deteriorating due to climate change,\nthat\nis also in the middle of a huge war, tends not support sports such as\nrecreational mountain climbing.\n\nWhy do you always presume, Stockhoff?\n\nDon't you ever know?\n\nDo you believe that folks don't notice you saying nasty things whenever\nI\nask a question you don't wish to answer?\n\nHow stupid are you, exactly?\n\nI keep going back and forth between you and the JW's in my perennial\nurth\nlist dumbest monkey test.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Presumably it was far from where anyone would normally go.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Did\nno one think of going there?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If\n20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the\naverage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "It's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch,\nall\nbut the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which\nis\nexactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch,\nby\ncontrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is\nwhy.\nIf only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only\nabout\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned a\nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha\ndynasty\nended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day\napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like\nstability,\nand are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who\ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say,\nand\nYmar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as\nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and\ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This\nleaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds the\nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the\n900\nyears following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English\nmonarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<973913.16005.qm@web50708.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-08-02T01:09:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<51677DE8-ED1B-412F-AAEA-F0E9370B4088@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not going to participate in this unless Josh requests opinions explicitly, \nand I hope others will consider that plan.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Jeff Eoff \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nCc: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Sun, August 1, 2010 7:08:44 PM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Resurrections\n\nI'm just putting up with you. \n\nI presumed you suffer from Aspergers to be honest." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 1, 2010, at 8:45 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThe feeling is quiet mutual.\n\nMost of us == who? Most of the voices in your head?\n\nHow do you know that most of the list is just putting up with me?\n\nYou have taken a survey?\n\nMight you publish your results here?\n\nThere are several noninnumerates here, one or more of whom may comment\nupon your statistics: I may myself.\n\nIn the meantime, if you wish to affect my involuntary removal from this\nlist, I suggest that you apply to the owner of the list, and not to me,\nwho - I am not sure if you get this - does not respect you and will not do\nwhat you want me to do.\n\nDo you have any questions?\n\n.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You are an unpleasant aspect of this list that most of us are just putting\nup with. I wish you would refrain from personal insults or intentionally\nenigmatic digressions. We'd all be better off.\n\nOn Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 7:47 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "And a society that is physically deteriorating due to climate change,\nthat\nis also in the middle of a huge war, tends not support sports such as\nrecreational mountain climbing.\n\nWhy do you always presume, Stockhoff?\n\nDon't you ever know?\n\nDo you believe that folks don't notice you saying nasty things whenever\nI\nask a question you don't wish to answer?\n\nHow stupid are you, exactly?\n\nI keep going back and forth between you and the JW's in my perennial\nurth\nlist dumbest monkey test.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Presumably it was far from where anyone would normally go.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Did\nno one think of going there?)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "If\n20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the\naverage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "It's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch,\nall\nbut the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which\nis\nexactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch,\nby\ncontrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is\nwhy.\nIf only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only\nabout\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned a\nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha\ndynasty\nended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day\napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like\nstability,\nand are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who\ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say,\nand\nYmar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as\nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and\ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "This\nleaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds the\nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the\n900\nyears following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English\nmonarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100801-0, 08/01/2010\nTested on: 8/1/2010 6:30:23 PM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C561C0B.2050208@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-02T01:14:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C5609D7.5000409@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The best way to respond to this sort of random hostility on a listserv \nis OFFLINE.\nI assure you that the poster will very quickly lose interest in the \nconversation, and --if you keep cool and maintain a rational, helpful \ntone-- you will feel better when it is over.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "brunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "And a society that is physically deteriorating due to climate change, \nthat\nis also in the middle of a huge war, tends not support sports such as\nrecreational mountain climbing.\n\nWhy do you always presume, Stockhoff?\n\nDon't you ever know?\n\nDo you believe that folks don't notice you saying nasty things \nwhenever I\nask a question you don't wish to answer?\n\nHow stupid are you, exactly?\n\nI keep going back and forth between you and the JW's in my perennial \nurth\nlist dumbest monkey test.\n\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<6dccab96fa4813be225872fdb1297748.squirrel@brunians.org>", "from": { "name": "brunians at brunians.org", "address": "brunians at brunians.org" }, "date": "2010-08-02T01:14:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C5617EF.9030308@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's only one opinion that counts.\n\nBut who knows?\n\nMaybe you can get a democratic movement going.\n\nI imagine if the masses become clamorous Dr Bhatnagar might respond.\n\nHow many people are on the Gene Wolfe list?\n\nMeanwhile, why don't you answer some of the questions you don't want to\nanswer, you weasel you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I second John. That's 2.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The feeling is quiet mutual.\n\nMost of us == who? Most of the voices in your head?\n\nHow do you know that most of the list is just putting up with me?\n\nYou have taken a survey?\n\nMight you publish your results here?\n\nThere are several noninnumerates here, one or more of whom may comment\nupon your statistics: I may myself.\n\nIn the meantime, if you wish to affect my involuntary removal from this\nlist, I suggest that you apply to the owner of the list, and not to me,\nwho - I am not sure if you get this - does not respect you and will not\ndo\nwhat you want me to do.\n\nDo you have any questions?\n\n.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You are an unpleasant aspect of this list that most of us are just\nputting\nup with. I wish you would refrain from personal insults or\nintentionally\nenigmatic digressions. We'd all be better off.\n\nOn Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 7:47 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "And a society that is physically deteriorating due to climate change,\nthat\nis also in the middle of a huge war, tends not support sports such as\nrecreational mountain climbing.\n\nWhy do you always presume, Stockhoff?\n\nDon't you ever know?\n\nDo you believe that folks don't notice you saying nasty things\nwhenever\nI\nask a question you don't wish to answer?\n\nHow stupid are you, exactly?\n\nI keep going back and forth between you and the JW's in my perennial\nurth\nlist dumbest monkey test.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Presumably it was far from where anyone would normally go.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "And isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Did" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "no one think of going there?)\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "If" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining\n180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "average." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "It's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "all" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "but the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "exactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "by" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "contrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "why." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "If only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only\nabout\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly\nmore\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned\na\nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "dynasty" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "ended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day\napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "stability," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "and are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who\ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "Ymar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as\nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and\ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "This" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "leaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds\nthe\nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "900" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "years following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English\nmonarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "aaron", "address": "aaronsingleton at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-02T08:58:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<6dccab96fa4813be225872fdb1297748.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You certainly have my vote. I am just sick of scrolling through the\nnonsense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 9:14 PM, wrote:\nThere's only one opinion that counts.\n\nBut who knows?\n\nMaybe you can get a democratic movement going.\n\nI imagine if the masses become clamorous Dr Bhatnagar might respond.\n\nHow many people are on the Gene Wolfe list?\n\nMeanwhile, why don't you answer some of the questions you don't want to\nanswer, you weasel you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I second John. That's 2.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The feeling is quiet mutual.\n\nMost of us == who? Most of the voices in your head?\n\nHow do you know that most of the list is just putting up with me?\n\nYou have taken a survey?\n\nMight you publish your results here?\n\nThere are several noninnumerates here, one or more of whom may comment\nupon your statistics: I may myself.\n\nIn the meantime, if you wish to affect my involuntary removal from this\nlist, I suggest that you apply to the owner of the list, and not to me,\nwho - I am not sure if you get this - does not respect you and will not\ndo\nwhat you want me to do.\n\nDo you have any questions?\n\n.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You are an unpleasant aspect of this list that most of us are just\nputting\nup with. I wish you would refrain from personal insults or\nintentionally\nenigmatic digressions. We'd all be better off.\n\nOn Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 7:47 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And a society that is physically deteriorating due to climate change,\nthat\nis also in the middle of a huge war, tends not support sports such as\nrecreational mountain climbing.\n\nWhy do you always presume, Stockhoff?\n\nDon't you ever know?\n\nDo you believe that folks don't notice you saying nasty things\nwhenever\nI\nask a question you don't wish to answer?\n\nHow stupid are you, exactly?\n\nI keep going back and forth between you and the JW's in my perennial\nurth\nlist dumbest monkey test.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Presumably it was far from where anyone would normally go.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "And isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Did" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "no one think of going there?)\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining\n180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "average." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "It's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "all" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "but the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "exactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "by" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "contrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "why." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "If only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only\nabout\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly\nmore\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned\na\nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "dynasty" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "ended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day\napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "stability," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "and are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who\ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Ymar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as\nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and\ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "This" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "leaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds\nthe\nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "900" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "years following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English\nmonarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5695AA.3060105@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-02T09:53:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C55F561.7000404@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2010 5:29 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAnd isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time. Did\nno one think of going there?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Giant. Robot. Warriors." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C569987.7080809@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-02T10:10:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C55ECE0.7080900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2010 4:53 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years. If\n20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the average.\nIt's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch, all\nbut the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which is\nexactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch, by\ncontrast, was much more robust even at its weakest." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which imperial dynasties did you have in mind? Holy Roman? \nAustro-Hungarian? Egyptian?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is why." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a few more, but my Lexicon may have drifted into the Void. \nThere's Ymar, Sulpicius, the guy that closed the roads, \"Appian\", Severian," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only about\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more\nplausible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Still not a good match for the mathematical likelihood, or the the more \nstable monarchies' historical examples, and I think that the \nconsiderable reliance upon secret words and non-subbornable machines \nmakes the Autarchy more resistant to hostile seizure than similar, \n(apparently) constitutionless rulerships." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But is this important?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is so little said about the thousand-year succession of autarchs \ndespite it being such a central story feature that any detail about them \nis important and could be the key to any of the attendant mysteries, \nlike how Sulpicius can be expected to return." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<178B33FC-2AB7-4CF9-A521-94F97C2857BB@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-02T15:00:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<6dccab96fa4813be225872fdb1297748.squirrel@brunians.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't mind the added color to the discussion. However, I also don't know the interpersonal constructs between the various members, but I feel like I'm beginning to.\n\nIs Josh's theory that all the JW's are the same his alone? Whether true or not, it's sort of a genius, and ironic idea given the subject matter of this list.\n\nI also don't mind Rated-R replies, as long as they have some substance to them. Meaning, on-topic is preferred, but off-topic can be insightful if there's something I can quote later on.\n\n...ryan\n\nP.S. If the Urth emails collect in my mailbox, I will often times read the emails that have brunians at brunians.org first, for the record. I don't know where that puts me in the demographic, but there it is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 1, 2010, at 9:14 PM, brunians at brunians.org wrote:\nThere's only one opinion that counts.\n\nBut who knows?\n\nMaybe you can get a democratic movement going.\n\nI imagine if the masses become clamorous Dr Bhatnagar might respond.\n\nHow many people are on the Gene Wolfe list?\n\nMeanwhile, why don't you answer some of the questions you don't want to\nanswer, you weasel you.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I second John. That's 2.\n\nbrunians at brunians.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The feeling is quiet mutual.\n\nMost of us == who? Most of the voices in your head?\n\nHow do you know that most of the list is just putting up with me?\n\nYou have taken a survey?\n\nMight you publish your results here?\n\nThere are several noninnumerates here, one or more of whom may comment\nupon your statistics: I may myself.\n\nIn the meantime, if you wish to affect my involuntary removal from this\nlist, I suggest that you apply to the owner of the list, and not to me,\nwho - I am not sure if you get this - does not respect you and will not\ndo\nwhat you want me to do.\n\nDo you have any questions?\n\n.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "You are an unpleasant aspect of this list that most of us are just\nputting\nup with. I wish you would refrain from personal insults or\nintentionally\nenigmatic digressions. We'd all be better off.\n\nOn Sun, Aug 1, 2010 at 7:47 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "And a society that is physically deteriorating due to climate change,\nthat\nis also in the middle of a huge war, tends not support sports such as\nrecreational mountain climbing.\n\nWhy do you always presume, Stockhoff?\n\nDon't you ever know?\n\nDo you believe that folks don't notice you saying nasty things\nwhenever\nI\nask a question you don't wish to answer?\n\nHow stupid are you, exactly?\n\nI keep going back and forth between you and the JW's in my perennial\nurth\nlist dumbest monkey test.\n\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 6, "text": "Presumably it was far from where anyone would normally go.\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "And isn't Typhon supposed to be *2* thousand years before Severian?\n\n(Never mind that Typhon was up there in his mountain all the time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "Did" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 7, "text": "no one think of going there?)\n\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "If" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining\n180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "average." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "It's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "all" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "but the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "exactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "by" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "contrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "why." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "If only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only\nabout\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly\nmore\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?\n\n\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "On 8/1/2010 1:36 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 10, "text": "Some autarchs may have ruled for only a week." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "That's not unusual for popes or kings either. John-Paul I reigned\na\nmonth, Jane Grey for 9 days, and IIRC the Hawaiian Kamehameha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "dynasty" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "ended with the last couple of heirs reigning for less than a day\napiece. These rates can't be sustained with anything like" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "stability," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "and are more than compensated for by the Victorias and Henrys, who\ncome to the throne young and live on into vigorous old age.\n\nAppian-Severian-Valeria cover a minimum of eight decades, I'd say," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "and" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "Ymar could easily have been one of the child-Autarchs as well as\nreigning long enough to be credited with his various deeds and\ncommands, even if he didn't actually do or complete all of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "This" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "leaves about nine hundred years for all but one of the hundreds\nthe\nOld Autarch spoke of, surely they can do better than that? In the" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "900" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 9, "text": "years following the Norman Conquest there were only 45 English\nmonarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 8, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-02T15:07:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C55ECE0.7080900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 1, 2010, at 5:53 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years. If 20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180 would each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the average. It's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch, all but the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which is exactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch, by contrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is why. If only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only about 4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more plausible.\n\nBut is this important?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This might be important if we're trying to figure out what percentage of an Autarch's brain is used vs. not used, and how that compares with a non-alzabo-corpse-devouring human(oid).\n\nHowever, the idea of a kingdom living on through successors by way of corpse eating is pretty cool, and maybe it was the seed of the idea for Wolfe when he constructed it in his world.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C56F23B.9050801@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-02T16:28:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C55ECE0.7080900@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2010 4:53 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years. If\n20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the average.\nIt's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch, all\nbut the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which is\nexactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch, by\ncontrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is why.\nIf only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only about\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For such a prominent feature of the book, there's so little said about \nthe succession of Autarchs that any detail we can glean is important to \nsolving any number of attendant mysteries, like how Sulpicius can be \nexpected to return.\n\n(third time attempting to submit this)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<110538.83409.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-02T20:11:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Resurrections", "in_reply_to": "<4C56F23B.9050801@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, I mean---is an exact range important?\n\nI don't see the text (\"hundreds\" of autarchs) as out of line. It suggests long, very bad periods in the Commonwealth's history, when it was sustained only by technology and its relative isolation. (The Byzantines, by contrast, had many enemies, or at least many directions from which an enemy could approach.)\n\nBut an attendant point might be that the line of succession was unbroken nevertheless.\n\n--- On Mon, 8/2/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) Resurrections\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, August 2, 2010, 12:28 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/1/2010 4:53 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n200 autarchs could rule an average of 5 years each over 1000 years. If\n20 of these autarchs ruled an average of 20 years, the remaining 180\nwould each have to rule for about 3+1/3 years to maintain the average.\nIt's possible. In such a system, the individuality of each autarch, all\nbut the greatest, would be inconsequential and utterly lost. Which is\nexactly what has happened in imperial dynasties. England's monarch, by\ncontrast, was much more robust even at its weakest.\n\nIf we know only 3 names from the past 1000 years, perhaps that is why.\nIf only these 3 ruled for 50 each and the remainder for still only about\n4 years on average, that makes 200 in total. It's then slightly more\nplausible.\n\nBut is this important?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For such a prominent feature of the book, there's so little said about the succession of Autarchs that any detail we can glean is important to solving any number of attendant mysteries, like how Sulpicius can be expected to return.\n\n(third time attempting to submit this)\n\n-- Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] } ] }