{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5691", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5691, "subject": "Severian's sister/ancestry - query.", "messages": 17, "voices": 6, "first": "2010-08-06T01:16:06+00:00", "last": "2010-08-09T01:24:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "<4C5B6256.2020608@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T01:16:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sister/ancestry - query.", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just wondered if any more knowledgeable person on the list had any \nsuggestions about this query, which has bugged me for years.\n\nSeverian speculates early in *Shadow* that the elders and masters of his \nGuild must have information on the ancestry / antecedents of newly \nrecruited apprentices. Indeed this is highly likely given the \nrecruitment methods of the Guild which takes its apprentices solely from \namongst the children of their 'clients' (victims). We get only brief \ninsights throughout the four volumes of BOTNS into the bureaucracy of \nthe Commonwealth, and less than that into the records kept by the \nSeekers of Truth and Penitence; but there *are* records, and we are not \ngiven any reason to doubt that early speculation on Sev's part.\n\nSo - well, when Severian becomes Autarch, he has, effectively, total \ncommand of the Commonweath and its various bureaucracies. He has the \nWords and he has the authority. After ten very, very successful and \npopular years in power (he is by that time 'Severian the Great' after \nall) he has likely won over many early hold-outs who may have \ndisapproved of his succession or of the Autarchy in general (though I \ndoubt he's won over the 'Agiatii' or whatever they are called after \nVodalus's unlamented demise ... what wouldn't I give to hear more about \nthis no doubt epic struggle!). So one may assume that most if not all of \nthe Commonwealth's bureaucracies are his to command.\n\nHe has 'reformed' but not abolished his old Guild; also of note, since \nthere would have been no need for a wholesale destruction of records \nduring a mere 'reformation'. One would hope indeed that the Autarch's \nrepresentatives would have been able to prevent such a thing had it been \nthought of.\n\nSo ... why on Urth, with the power and authority invested in him as \nAutarch, does Severian not require access to the records of the Seekers \nof Truth and Penitence, and thus learn beyond any doubt just who are his \nparents, his grandparents, and his sister? The flip answer is of course \n'because GW does not want us to know', but I hope for more than that. \nSev could have asked, and he would have been obeyed. He doesn't ask.\n\nWhy? Any ideas?\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T02:15:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sister/ancestry - query.", "in_reply_to": "<4C5B6256.2020608@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One possible explanation is that it's guild tradition not to tell (sorta\nlike an adoption agency, see), and Severian didn't want to resort to\nsomething like having Palaemon or Gurloes tortured for the information.\nI find that all the more plausible since Severian seems to be the sort of\nguy who doesn't contradict rules, especially ones he was raised in, even if\nhe technically can now.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Aug 5, 2010 at 9:16 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\n\nSo ... why on Urth, with the power and authority invested in him as\nAutarch, does Severian not require access to the records of the Seekers of\nTruth and Penitence, and thus learn beyond any doubt just who are his\nparents, his grandparents, and his sister? The flip answer is of course\n'because GW does not want us to know', but I hope for more than that. Sev\ncould have asked, and he would have been obeyed. He doesn't ask.\n\nWhy? Any ideas?\n\njd\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5B8549.9060606@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T03:45:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sister/ancestry - query.", "in_reply_to": "<4C5B6256.2020608@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/5/2010 8:16 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nSo ... why on Urth, with the power and authority invested in him as\nAutarch, does Severian not require access to the records of the Seekers\nof Truth and Penitence, and thus learn beyond any doubt just who are his\nparents, his grandparents, and his sister? The flip answer is of course\n'because GW does not want us to know', but I hope for more than that.\nSev could have asked, and he would have been obeyed. He doesn't ask." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe he does open the records, which is how he knows his mother's \nname and hair color, which Ouen confirms, and that he does it almost \nimmediately upon his ascension, before Dorcas can get over her grief of \nthe boatman and flee their house in the ruins." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5B8AB2.4070304@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T04:08:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sister/ancestry - query.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/5/2010 9:15 PM, Paul B wrote:\nOne possible explanation is that it's guild tradition not to tell (sorta\nlike an adoption agency, see), and Severian didn't want to resort to\nsomething like having Palaemon or Gurloes tortured for the information.\nI find that all the more plausible since Severian seems to be the sort\nof guy who doesn't contradict rules, especially ones he was raised in,\neven if he technically can now." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dude, are we reading the same books? Sev says multiple times he's broken \nevery oath he's ever made, every guild stricture, ...he breaks rules \nleft and right, starting with treason as he breaks curfew on his way \nhome from playing truant and swimming in polluted water. He is \n*literally* a rebellious youth from opening page until he crowns his \ncareer of evil by eating the king's brains!\n\nThen he takes about a decade break and only lies,, cheats, and steals in \nthe approved fashion of statecraft before he shows he still has what it \ntakes to break all the rules by allying with alien monsters from another \nuniverse that help him destroy the world!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<55408ECB-5E80-4DED-BF23-5FB9001101C5@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T04:14:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sister/ancestry - query.", "in_reply_to": "<4C5B8AB2.4070304@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 6, 2010, at 12:08 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nDude, are we reading the same books? Sev says multiple times he's broken every oath he's ever made, every guild stricture, ...he breaks rules left and right, starting with treason as he breaks curfew on his way home from playing truant and swimming in polluted water. He is *literally* a rebellious youth from opening page until he crowns his career of evil by eating the king's brains!\n\nThen he takes about a decade break and only lies,, cheats, and steals in the approved fashion of statecraft before he shows he still has what it takes to break all the rules by allying with alien monsters from another universe that help him destroy the world!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You had me until alien monsters. Severian at no point that I saw allies with alien monsters with the intention of destroying Urth.\n\nDo you really think his action of bringing the New Sun was breaking all the rules? And eating the king's brains was an act of evil? Are you sure?\n\nHe did break curfew, though, and was more than happy to help his masters deceive the Autarchy by staging his own death after giving Thecla the knife.\n\nFor starters.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5B9845.4070606@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T05:06:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sister/ancestry - query.", "in_reply_to": "<55408ECB-5E80-4DED-BF23-5FB9001101C5@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/5/2010 11:14 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Aug 6, 2010, at 12:08 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dude, are we reading the same books? Sev says multiple times he's broken every oath he's ever made, every guild stricture, ...he breaks rules left and right, starting with treason as he breaks curfew on his way home from playing truant and swimming in polluted water. He is *literally* a rebellious youth from opening page until he crowns his career of evil by eating the king's brains!\n\nThen he takes about a decade break and only lies,, cheats, and steals in the approved fashion of statecraft before he shows he still has what it takes to break all the rules by allying with alien monsters from another universe that help him destroy the world!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You had me until alien monsters. Severian at no point that I saw allies with alien monsters with the intention of destroying Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alpheta, Tzadkiel, Famulimus, Barbatus, and Inire are all alien \ncreatures from beyond time and space whose existence follows physical \nlaws foreign to all urthly experience. They masquerade as humans, \nbefriend and seduce Severian in furtherance of their alien agenda and \nare the parties responsible for the White Fountain and its genocidal, \nclimate changing, mass-extinction-event, continent shuffling flood.\n\nThey all had good reasons for doing all this, but it's not like they \nasked permission or gave due process." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<952BA89E-32F6-4273-9FAA-15E58DD05BBE@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T05:12:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sister/ancestry - query.", "in_reply_to": "<4C5B9845.4070606@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 6, 2010, at 1:06 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nAlpheta, Tzadkiel, Famulimus, Barbatus, and Inire are all alien creatures from beyond time and space whose existence follows physical laws foreign to all urthly experience. They masquerade as humans, befriend and seduce Severian in furtherance of their alien agenda and are the parties responsible for the White Fountain and its genocidal, climate changing, mass-extinction-event, continent shuffling flood.\n\nThey all had good reasons for doing all this, but it's not like they asked permission or gave due process." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, I just got wrapped up in the hero quest aspect of the text, I guess, and the need for a new Sun, come hell or high water (or both).\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5BFC97.8000909@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-06T12:14:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sister/ancestry - query.", "in_reply_to": "<55408ECB-5E80-4DED-BF23-5FB9001101C5@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When did Severian stage his own death?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Aug 6, 2010, at 12:08 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dude, are we reading the same books? Sev says multiple times he's broken every oath he's ever made, every guild stricture, ...he breaks rules left and right, starting with treason as he breaks curfew on his way home from playing truant and swimming in polluted water. He is *literally* a rebellious youth from opening page until he crowns his career of evil by eating the king's brains!\n\nThen he takes about a decade break and only lies,, cheats, and steals in the approved fashion of statecraft before he shows he still has what it takes to break all the rules by allying with alien monsters from another universe that help him destroy the world!\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You had me until alien monsters. Severian at no point that I saw allies with alien monsters with the intention of destroying Urth.\n\nDo you really think his action of bringing the New Sun was breaking all the rules? And eating the king's brains was an act of evil? Are you sure?\n\nHe did break curfew, though, and was more than happy to help his masters deceive the Autarchy by staging his own death after giving Thecla the knife.\n\nFor starters.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T13:28:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sister/ancestry - query.", "in_reply_to": "<4C5BFC97.8000909@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant the scene where he's offering Gurloes ways of \"dying\" so that his betrayal won't shame the guild, even though to do so would be illegal and immoral.\n\nI believe he offers up drowning as an option, which sort of made me laugh on a second reading, knowing what we know of Severian and drowning.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 6, 2010, at 8:14 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWhen did Severian stage his own death?\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Aug 6, 2010, at 12:08 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dude, are we reading the same books? Sev says multiple times he's broken every oath he's ever made, every guild stricture, ...he breaks rules left and right, starting with treason as he breaks curfew on his way home from playing truant and swimming in polluted water. He is *literally* a rebellious youth from opening page until he crowns his career of evil by eating the king's brains!\n\nThen he takes about a decade break and only lies,, cheats, and steals in the approved fashion of statecraft before he shows he still has what it takes to break all the rules by allying with alien monsters from another universe that help him destroy the world!\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You had me until alien monsters. Severian at no point that I saw allies with alien monsters with the intention of destroying Urth.\n\nDo you really think his action of bringing the New Sun was breaking all the rules? And eating the king's brains was an act of evil? Are you sure?\n\nHe did break curfew, though, and was more than happy to help his masters deceive the Autarchy by staging his own death after giving Thecla the knife.\n\nFor starters.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1D83BBAF-BBF7-4D20-AF94-7992D0DF13B3@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T13:36:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sister/ancestry - query.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I shouldn't have put quotes around dying. He truly meant to die for his sin.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 6, 2010, at 9:28 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI meant the scene where he's offering Gurloes ways of \"dying\" so that his betrayal won't shame the guild, even though to do so would be illegal and immoral.\n\nI believe he offers up drowning as an option, which sort of made me laugh on a second reading, knowing what we know of Severian and drowning.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Aug 6, 2010, at 8:14 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When did Severian stage his own death?\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Aug 6, 2010, at 12:08 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Dude, are we reading the same books? Sev says multiple times he's broken every oath he's ever made, every guild stricture, ...he breaks rules left and right, starting with treason as he breaks curfew on his way home from playing truant and swimming in polluted water. He is *literally* a rebellious youth from opening page until he crowns his career of evil by eating the king's brains!\n\nThen he takes about a decade break and only lies,, cheats, and steals in the approved fashion of statecraft before he shows he still has what it takes to break all the rules by allying with alien monsters from another universe that help him destroy the world!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You had me until alien monsters. Severian at no point that I saw allies with alien monsters with the intention of destroying Urth.\n\nDo you really think his action of bringing the New Sun was breaking all the rules? And eating the king's brains was an act of evil? Are you sure?\n\nHe did break curfew, though, and was more than happy to help his masters deceive the Autarchy by staging his own death after giving Thecla the knife.\n\nFor starters.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T14:06:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sister/ancestry - query.", "in_reply_to": "<1D83BBAF-BBF7-4D20-AF94-7992D0DF13B3@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- I believe he does open the records, which is how he knows his mother's \nname and hair color, which Ouen confirms, and that he does it almost \nimmediately upon his ascension, before Dorcas can get over her grief of \nthe boatman and flee their house in the ruins." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI generally agree with Jeff Wilson. Severian is least forthcoming with us in regard to\nhis problems with incest. We are given enough information to fairly easily deduce that\nDorcas is his grandmother though he never comes out and says so.\n \nGiven his initial intense curiousity, it seems almost impossible that, as Autarch, he \nwould not use his power to investigate his own family tree (just as it seems impossible\nthat there was no buggery going on among torturer's apprentices). Such things draw \nattention to themselves by their conspicuous absence.\n \nHow can Severian admit to us that he discovered all the major loves and conquests of his\nlife were family members, Dorcas, Thecla, Valeria, Jolenta and Cyriaca all being prime\ncandidates, I think. Sometimes I doubt whether Wolfe would set up a scenario and then\ndisguise it so impenetrably. Then some other new subtle revelation makes an appearance\n30 years after publishing and I once again believe it.\n \n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5C17F9.8070306@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-06T14:11:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian's sister/ancestry - query.", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right, of course.\n\nYes, there are some hilarious passages. I am currently rereading by \naudiobook, and am enjoying Severian's dalliance with Jolenta (rhymes \nwith \"polenta\") and the comic play that follows." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI meant the scene where he's offering Gurloes ways of \"dying\" so that his betrayal won't shame the guild, even though to do so would be illegal and immoral.\n\nI believe he offers up drowning as an option, which sort of made me laugh on a second reading, knowing what we know of Severian and drowning.\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Aug 6, 2010, at 8:14 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "When did Severian stage his own death?\n\nRyan Dunn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Aug 6, 2010, at 12:08 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Dude, are we reading the same books? Sev says multiple times he's broken every oath he's ever made, every guild stricture, ...he breaks rules left and right, starting with treason as he breaks curfew on his way home from playing truant and swimming in polluted water. He is *literally* a rebellious youth from opening page until he crowns his career of evil by eating the king's brains!\n\nThen he takes about a decade break and only lies,, cheats, and steals in the approved fashion of statecraft before he shows he still has what it takes to break all the rules by allying with alien monsters from another universe that help him destroy the world!\n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "You had me until alien monsters. Severian at no point that I saw allies with alien monsters with the intention of destroying Urth.\n\nDo you really think his action of bringing the New Sun was breaking all the rules? And eating the king's brains was an act of evil? Are you sure?\n\nHe did break curfew, though, and was more than happy to help his masters deceive the Autarchy by staging his own death after giving Thecla the knife.\n\nFor starters.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5CB384.1050104@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-08-07T01:14:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sister? (was: Re: Severian's sister/ancestry - query.)", "in_reply_to": "<4C5B8549.9060606@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry for monkeying with the subject line again, I want to get my own \nposts sent back to me and this is the only way I can get Sky's mail \nserver to do this. And apologies *again* if you have heard this a few \ntoo many times already." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 06/08/10 04:45, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 8/5/2010 8:16 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So ... why on Urth, with the power and authority invested in him as\nAutarch, does Severian not require access to the records of the Seekers\nof Truth and Penitence, and thus learn beyond any doubt just who are his\nparents, his grandparents, and his sister? The flip answer is of course\n'because GW does not want us to know', but I hope for more than that.\nSev could have asked, and he would have been obeyed. He doesn't ask." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I believe he does open the records, which is how he knows his mother's \nname and hair color, which Ouen confirms, and that he does it almost \nimmediately upon his ascension, before Dorcas can get over her grief \nof the boatman and flee their house in the ruins." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dunno. Seems to me that Sev has had sufficient information prior to \nbecoming Autarch to at least be able to make an informed guess that \nDorcas was probably his grandmother and Ouen his father. Opening the \nrecords would have provided confirmation for sure, but did he really \nneed that to take the actions he did ie. compel Ouen to care for Dorcas \n(since he knows that he (Severian) would be the last person D. would \never want to see again after her return to Nessus).\n\nWhether this is the case or not though - one is still left to wonder \nwhy, given that he simply must have been able to demand the relevant \ninformation from the Guild, Severian still does not know (even at the \nend of UOTNS he does not know - one might think that by that time, both \nSev and GW have passed beyond worrying about it, but if Juturna is in \nthe mix that is not the case at all, is it?) who his *sister* is. GW \nspends altogether too much time and effort setting Severian up as one of \ntwins (or at the very least of a brother-sister pair with appropriate \nnames) for this to be an irrelevant or insignificant question, surely?\n\nI gather that in one of GW's later works (which I have not read) there \nis a scene set within the Matachin Tower which involves Severian, a \n'cacogen', and Merryn (at the time either apprentice or 'journeywoman' \nWitch) and that during this scene Merryn claims that Severian is her \nbrother. This may be a generic term (Severian refers to 'the Witches, \nour sisters' in 'Shadow'; here the usage appears to be generic, though \nfor any individual Seeker or apprentice there is the possibility that \nthis term is literally true, given what we are told about how these two \nguilds obtain recruits) but it's possibly not. Merryn I know has been \nfingered as Severa by more than one commentator, but so have quite a few \nother characters (Juturna, the mandragora, Jolenta, and so on and so \nforth). If Sev as Autarch can be assumed to have confirmed his earlier \nsuspicions and deductions about Dorcas, Ouen et al., then why, \napparently, has he not succeeded in discovering further information \nabout his sister?\n\nI still think this is a major lacuna and pretty strange.\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5D411E.5010607@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-07T11:18:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sister?", "in_reply_to": "<4C5CB384.1050104@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/6/2010 8:14 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nWhether this is the case or not though - one is still left to wonder\nwhy, given that he simply must have been able to demand the relevant\ninformation from the Guild, Severian still does not know (even at the\nend of UOTNS he does not know - one might think that by that time, both\nSev and GW have passed beyond worrying about it, but if Juturna is in\nthe mix that is not the case at all, is it?) who his *sister* is. GW\nspends altogether too much time and effort setting Severian up as one of\ntwins (or at the very least of a brother-sister pair with appropriate\nnames) for this to be an irrelevant or insignificant question, surely?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let us think what information that the guild would have retained. We \ncould expect them to have:\n\n* the official documentation commanding Catharine's imprisonment and her \ntorture and execution if any. These would record her name, residence and \nposition, a brief or lengthy physical description doe identification \npurposes, and the charges against her.\n* the official guild records kept for inspection by the authorities, \naccounting for her disposition and that of any children who arrived with \nher or she bore.\n* the internal accounts or logs kept by the masters for later \nconsultation of their own, their fellow masters, and masters yet to come.\n\nI don't think this would necessarily include any details of any family \nmembers who had not fallen into their hands, except by chance inclusion: \n\"...found guilty of the murder of her husband the Autarch's servant \nPancras for which the sentence of death is to be carried out...\". Of \ncourse, an exultant's family would be identifiable from their name, *if* \nthat name were faithfully recorded and there was no complicating \nfactors like disinheritance or abdication.\n\nOf any siblings, the guild records would say that a girl with \nsuch-a-color hair and eyes and marks was given to the Witches if the \nbirth came after incarceration, or such-a-color hair and eyes and marks \nand the name of X if the girl came with her mother to the tower.\n\nSeverian's lack of mention of a sister suggests to me that either he \ncame without one, or that any on record are no longer locatable." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-08T10:27:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sister?", "in_reply_to": "<4C5D411E.5010607@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Severian's lack of mention of a sister suggests to me that either he \ncame without one, or that any on record are no longer locatable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis is a plausible explanation and it surely could be what Gene Wolfe had in mind\nwith regard to \"severa\".\n \nAmong the most popular alternate explanations I've seen are that Severian's sister is the \nwitch, Merryn as hinted at in Return to the Whorl. Another is that he discovered that his \nsister is someone he had sex with and doesn't want to openly reveal it, managing to drop \n(conscious or not) hints about it, similar to the hints regarding Dorcas being his \ngrandmother and similar to the hint Agilus drops that he and his sister have a sexual \nrelationship. \n \nI think Wolfe leaves it to each reader's personal preference which explanation to lean\ntoward. There is even latitude for those who are comfortable with the ambiguity of three\n(or more) parallel explanations and no need for choosing one over the others. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5F46DB.5080101@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T00:07:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Twin again (was: Re: Sister?)", "in_reply_to": "<4C5D411E.5010607@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 07/08/10 12:18, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 8/6/2010 8:14 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "GW\nspends altogether too much time and effort setting Severian up as one of\ntwins (or at the very least of a brother-sister pair with appropriate\nnames) for this to be an irrelevant or insignificant question, surely?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Let us think what information that the guild would have retained. We \ncould expect them to have:\n\n* the official documentation commanding Catharine's imprisonment and \nher torture and execution if any. These would record her name, \nresidence and position, a brief or lengthy physical description doe \nidentification purposes, and the charges against her." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, this kind of record would have been routine for any 'client'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "* the official guild records kept for inspection by the authorities, \naccounting for her disposition and that of any children who arrived \nwith her or she bore." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Re: the second point - Well yes, one might *indeed* expect these details \nto be recorded, especially if she bore twins and one of them was \nretained by the Seekers (because a boy) and the other handed over to the \nWitches (because a girl). As I've already mentioned I think GW provides \nthe reader with so many hints and suggestions re: Sev's name and the \npossible existence of a sister that I can't think why he would have done \nthis, unless we are supposed to assume that he did in fact have a \nsister. Otherwise, why bother? Just to be able to turn around and say, \n'Ha ha, fooled you?'\n\nCan't see it somehow." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think this would necessarily include any details of any family \nmembers who had not fallen into their hands, except by chance \ninclusion: \"...found guilty of the murder of her husband the Autarch's \nservant Pancras for which the sentence of death is to be carried \nout...\". Of course, an exultant's family would be identifiable from \ntheir name, *if* that name were faithfully recorded and there was no \ncomplicating factors like disinheritance or abdication.\n\nOf any siblings, the guild records would say that a girl with \nsuch-a-color hair and eyes and marks was given to the Witches if the \nbirth came after incarceration, or such-a-color hair and eyes and \nmarks and the name of X if the girl came with her mother to the tower." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For sure. But if Sev was raised by the Guild from a baby (as his \nrecollection of being nursed by a woman within the Tower strongly \nsuggests he was - though his assumption that this woman was his mother \nis yet another example of his 'unreliable narrator' status since he has \ninformed us within the first chapter or two of his narrative that when \nthe Seekers have a suitable newborn in their hands, they will engage a \nwet-nurse; the baby doesn't necessarily get nursed by his own mother) \nand he did have a twin sister, the delivery - by natural means, or by \nthe Guild's rough form of C-section as the text suggests - of twin \nbabies, one of each sex and one taken or given to be raised by each of \nthe sibling Guilds would surely be a notable event, and I can't see it \nnot being recorded.\n\nIt's always possible of course that Catherine was subjected to this \nrough surgery and that consequently, only one of her twins survived. If \nso, why keep harping on the 'twins' theme? Unless of course the (IMO) \nwild suggestion that the mandragora is Sev's twin happens to be correct." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian's lack of mention of a sister" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Though people who came into contact with him keep suggesting the \npossibility, over and over again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "suggests to me that either he came without one, or that any on record \nare no longer locatable." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This on the other hand is entirely plausible. Sev as Autarch could have \nrequisitioned the records and discovered that he had a sister, given to \nthe Witches, who was not named at birth (because the Witches would give \nher a name) and was therefore untraceable. This bit of information would \nclose out all kinds of hints and suggestions within the four volumes; \nbut it's not given.\n\nI still find this odd. Further comments more than welcome, this stuff \n(alongside plenty more in the books) has puzzled me for years!\n\nmany thanks to all who have replied and hopefully I don't have to \nexplain yet again why I have altered the subject line (sticking to one \nthread at the moment because I don't want to confuse more than one of them).\n\nJD" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5F58E4.5010501@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T01:24:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Twin again", "in_reply_to": "<4C5F46DB.5080101@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/8/2010 7:07 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nWitches (because a girl). As I've already mentioned I think GW provides\nthe reader with so many hints and suggestions re: Sev's name and the\npossible existence of a sister that I can't think why he would have done\nthis, unless we are supposed to assume that he did in fact have a\nsister. Otherwise, why bother? Just to be able to turn around and say,\n'Ha ha, fooled you?'\n\nCan't see it somehow." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a sister somewhere, but that doesn't mean the clues to her \nidentity have to be where Severian can find them, just where the \n*reader* can find them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and he did have a twin sister, the delivery - by natural means, or by\nthe Guild's rough form of C-section as the text suggests - of twin\nbabies, one of each sex and one taken or given to be raised by each of\nthe sibling Guilds would surely be a notable event, and I can't see it\nnot being recorded." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He was probably being brief for the benefit of his listeners at the \ntime. The guild would not perform c-sections on *every* pregnant woman \nwho comes into their hands regardless, that could be extra punishment \nwithout orders. But after the woman has passed, the restriction no \nlonger prevents them from opening her body to take the babes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's always possible of course that Catherine was subjected to this\nrough surgery and that consequently, only one of her twins survived. If\nso, why keep harping on the 'twins' theme? Unless of course the (IMO)\nwild suggestion that the mandragora is Sev's twin happens to be correct." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Nah, there's likely no shortage of aborted fetuses in Nessus, and there \nseem to be viable fetuses kept at the Witches' Keep, some must go bad \nnow and then. Besides, the mandragora's been locked in the alchemy lab \nfor centuries.\n\nI'm sure there's a sister *somewhere*, but even if we figure it out,\nthat doesn't mean that Severian ever would." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian's lack of mention of a sister\nThough people who came into contact with him keep suggesting the\npossibility, over and over again." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm speaking in particular of the final sections regarding Dorcas, the \nboatman, and Ouen, the natural times for him to mention his sister with \nregard to his new information." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "suggests to me that either he came without one, or that any on record\nare no longer locatable." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This on the other hand is entirely plausible. Sev as Autarch could have\nrequisitioned the records and discovered that he had a sister, given to\nthe Witches, who was not named at birth (because the Witches would give\nher a name) and was therefore untraceable. This bit of information would\nclose out all kinds of hints and suggestions within the four volumes;\nbut it's not given." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Witches are also a service guild of the Autarchy, and he would \nsimply go to their tower and have their records opened. In fact, I \nsuspect he would do so regardless. If the sister were dead, given his \nfascination with the mausoleum he almost certainly would have had the \nbody moved there from its humble grave, or at least have had some kind \nof closure worthy of recording. So, the sister must surely still be \nmissing as far as he and the Witched know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I still find this odd. Further comments more than welcome, this stuff\n(alongside plenty more in the books) has puzzled me for years!\n\nmany thanks to all who have replied and hopefully I don't have to\nexplain yet again why I have altered the subject line (sticking to one\nthread at the moment because I don't want to confuse more than one of\nthem)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have you considered using one of the free mail services? Or reviewing \nyour posts via the list archives?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] } ] }