{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5692", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5692, "subject": "Boatman as Inire", "messages": 63, "voices": 16, "first": "2010-08-06T14:32:59+00:00", "last": "2010-08-10T14:59:10+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T14:32:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson's comment about Dorcas and the boatman brought this topic to\nmind. Rudesind as Inire has been discussed lately, but not the boatman I think.\nIt is recognized that a weakness in such a scenario involves the boatman not really\nbeing dead or that there are multiple versions of Inire which have varying lifespans.\n \nI lean toward him being a version of Inire because of the physical resemblance of course.\nAlso, his folksy way of speaking, similar to Rudesind's. Then there is his attraction to\nvery young women (Dorcas being about 14 when they married). Mythological Charon was the \nson of Erebus. Perhaps the son of Urth's Erebus is a boatman also. There are just too many\ncoincidences and mentions of \"manatees\" at the Lake Of Birds for me to think the boatman \nwas a simple, uninvolved by-stander.\n \nIn UotNS I think Wolfe tells us why Severian cannot openly reveal any of Father Inire's \ndisguises (if indeed he does recognize them). When Severian realizes and expresses that the \nhairy little guy helping him on the ship is the same same being as the shaggy apport \ncreature, the little guy, Zak, takes off running. Severian then realizes that one of the \ndeepest instincts of a shape-shifting being would be to flee when the disguise has been \npenetrated. Why does Wolfe include this scene?\n \nI think Severian's descriptions of Father Inire as always off stage, and if on stage, in \ndisguise, never revealed is, in some way, a sign of respect for the deep instinct of the \nshape-changing sort of being that Father Inire is (respect also for being his vizier and \ngrandfather).\n \n(I think this detection-avoiding principle of shape-changers is invoked in Fifth Head of \nCerberus and Long/Short Sun books as well)\n \nFWIW- Frank Herbert's Dune series (especially Book 6) seems to explore the same principle that \nI think Wolfe is exploring- the idea that a shape-changer, no matter how initially vile and \nprimitive, has the potential to become a god, through progressively imitating higher level \nbeings. Thus an explanation for why so many of the pagan gods and angels are shape-shifters. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T15:27:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dammit, Lee." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 10:32 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nI lean toward him being a version of Inire because of the physical\nresemblance of course." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, his folksy way of speaking, similar to Rudesind's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a great point if Rudesind in Inire, which is not established." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then there is his attraction to\nvery young women (Dorcas being about 14 when they married)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure about this. 14 is \"very young\" in our culture but is of course\nnormal marriagable age for a woman in the majority of human history.\nMoreover, I always thought the Inire/little girls thing was supposed to be a\nLewis Carroll thing. As we've discussed, Carroll's reputation is somewhat\nunearned, but assuming Wolfe bought into the general depiction, Carroll's\nspecial area of interest was in prepubescent girls. I'm not convinced we're\nmeant to take Inire's interest as a sexual one, either.\n\n(Dorcas's youth seems to me to be an echo of the Blessed Mother, whose\nattributes are of course mostly pushed in Catherine's direction, and\npossibly a sign that Wolfe conflated the women resurrected by Christ and St.\nPeter in order to create the character.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Mythological Charon was the\nson of Erebus. Perhaps the son of Urth's Erebus is a boatman also." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the part that makes me say \"dammit, Lee.\" It isn't established that\nInire is the son of Erebus or has any such connection at all, or that he has\nany connection with Charon. Instead, in the last few weeks we've developed\na somewhat logical connection between Fenrir and Inire. Fenrir and Charon\nare both underworld residents, but that's about it in terms of connections\nbetween them.\n\nWhat we have here is speculation (\"Inire is the son of Erebus\") put forth as\na buttress for somewhat less-wild speculation (\"Inire is the boatman.\") If\nthis argument is to be made, it should be made in the opposite direction:\n\"If Inire were the boatman, what would it say about his connection with\nErebus?\", or \"Given the mythological connection between Erebus and the\nboatman Charon, and the resemblance between Charon and our boatman, do any\nnew interpretations of the Book suggest themselves?\"\n\nThe thing that's great about this list is that those are really good\nquestions that I wouldn't have asked if it weren't for you pointed out the\nconnection.\n\nOff the cuff, to me, it suggests that Erebus is part of Severian's family\ntree in some sense, possibly metaphorical. The boatman, I think we agree,\nis Dorcas's husband and therefore likely Severian's grandfather and Ouen's\nfather. We have no need to make him Inire to speculate on whether or not\nthe boatman is the son of Erebus, literally or figuratively. The boatman\ndoesn't seem especially spooky and doesn't seem too connected to Erebus or\nAbaia, but he is connected with Severian's family and water, and, if I\nrecall correctly, is hanging out right about when Juturna shows up the first\ntime. Juturna is both possibly Severian's sister and possibly Abaia's\n\"daughter-bride\"--presumably these designations are mutually exclusive\nunless she is Abaia's \"daughter\" in a non-literal sense or is some kind of\ncompound being like the ones we encounter regularly in Long and Short Sun.\n\nBut maybe it is true that Severian and Severa-that-was are part of a family\ntree meddled in in some manner by Erebus. Perhaps this meddling made\nSeverian and Severa particularly accepting of further meddling--maybe it\nmade Severian an especially good candidate for New Sun status and made\nSevera an especially good candidate for undine status." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There are just too many\ncoincidences and mentions of \"manatees\" at the Lake Of Birds for me to\nthink the boatman\nwas a simple, uninvolved by-stander.\n\nI agree that there's at least one boatman-connected mystery (he's\nSeverian's grandfather)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In UotNS I think Wolfe tells us why Severian cannot openly reveal any of\nFather Inire's\ndisguises (if indeed he does recognize them). When Severian realizes and\nexpresses that the\nhairy little guy helping him on the ship is the same same being as the\nshaggy apport\ncreature, the little guy, Zak, takes off running. Severian then realizes\nthat one of the\ndeepest instincts of a shape-shifting being would be to flee when the\ndisguise has been\npenetrated." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Severian \"then realizes\" this, then it wasn't his motivation when he\nwrote Book of the New Sun. He had composed it and put it in Ultan's library\nbefore boarding the ship.\n\nI will point out here that it is not established that Inire is a\nshapeshifter. In fact, him being a shapeshifter conflicts slightly with\nwhat we know about him--that he employs disguises, and the one disguise we\nknow about is also that of a bent old man--and with your own argument that\nthe physical resemblance between the boatman and Inire is a reason to think\nthey're the same. But of course if Inire was a shapeshifter he'd probably\nemploy that skill to look different when in disguise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5C3476.2000801@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-06T16:12:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, 14 was a normal marrying age not too long ago.\n\nBut I like your last point. Shapeshifters, whether Inire is one or not, \nallow us to see that we may evolve and progress toward the Increate, \nespecially if they do that themselves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff Wilson's comment about Dorcas and the boatman brought this topic to\nmind. Rudesind as Inire has been discussed lately, but not the boatman I think.\nIt is recognized that a weakness in such a scenario involves the boatman not really\nbeing dead or that there are multiple versions of Inire which have varying lifespans.\n \nI lean toward him being a version of Inire because of the physical resemblance of course.\nAlso, his folksy way of speaking, similar to Rudesind's. Then there is his attraction to\nvery young women (Dorcas being about 14 when they married). Mythological Charon was the \nson of Erebus. Perhaps the son of Urth's Erebus is a boatman also. There are just too many\ncoincidences and mentions of \"manatees\" at the Lake Of Birds for me to think the boatman \nwas a simple, uninvolved by-stander.\n \nIn UotNS I think Wolfe tells us why Severian cannot openly reveal any of Father Inire's \ndisguises (if indeed he does recognize them). When Severian realizes and expresses that the \nhairy little guy helping him on the ship is the same same being as the shaggy apport \ncreature, the little guy, Zak, takes off running. Severian then realizes that one of the \ndeepest instincts of a shape-shifting being would be to flee when the disguise has been \npenetrated. Why does Wolfe include this scene?\n \nI think Severian's descriptions of Father Inire as always off stage, and if on stage, in \ndisguise, never revealed is, in some way, a sign of respect for the deep instinct of the \nshape-changing sort of being that Father Inire is (respect also for being his vizier and \ngrandfather).\n \n(I think this detection-avoiding principle of shape-changers is invoked in Fifth Head of \nCerberus and Long/Short Sun books as well)\n \nFWIW- Frank Herbert's Dune series (especially Book 6) seems to explore the same principle that \nI think Wolfe is exploring- the idea that a shape-changer, no matter how initially vile and \nprimitive, has the potential to become a god, through progressively imitating higher level \nbeings. Thus an explanation for why so many of the pagan gods and angels are shape-shifters. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<007f01cb359d$d11d7f60$49d34a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-08-06T19:30:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff Wilson's comment about Dorcas and the boatman brought this topic to\nmind. Rudesind as Inire has been discussed lately, but not the boatman I\nthink.\nIt is recognized that a weakness in such a scenario involves the boatman\nnot really\nbeing dead or that there are multiple versions of Inire which have varying\nlifespans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah, those were among my objections years ago when you first brought this\nup, and they still obtain.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Severian's descriptions of Father Inire as always off stage, and\nif on stage, in\ndisguise, never revealed is, in some way, a sign of respect for the deep\ninstinct of the\nshape-changing sort of being that Father Inire is (respect also for being\nhis vizier and\ngrandfather)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You keep throwing out statements like that as if they were accepted Lupine\ngospel: they are not. There is no textual evidence that Inire is either a\nshape-changer or Sev's grandfather. You pile speculation upon speculation in\nfurtherance of one or another of your theories and/or some Grand Unified\nTheory, no matter the cost to logic or the text. For example, you have\nproposed that at least three male characters in the Urth Cycle (the old man\nat Casdoe's cabin, the old leech and, IIRC, Ceryx) are really females,\ndespite there not being a shred of textual evidence to support the notion.\nWill that be enough to make the text fit the theory?\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T19:33:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "<007f01cb359d$d11d7f60$49d34a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is Lupine Gospel, however, that Dorcas and the boatman are Severian's paternal grandparents, yes?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 6, 2010, at 3:30 PM, \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson's comment about Dorcas and the boatman brought this topic to\nmind. Rudesind as Inire has been discussed lately, but not the boatman I\nthink.\nIt is recognized that a weakness in such a scenario involves the boatman\nnot really\nbeing dead or that there are multiple versions of Inire which have varying\nlifespans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yeah, those were among my objections years ago when you first brought this\nup, and they still obtain.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Severian's descriptions of Father Inire as always off stage, and\nif on stage, in\ndisguise, never revealed is, in some way, a sign of respect for the deep\ninstinct of the\nshape-changing sort of being that Father Inire is (respect also for being\nhis vizier and\ngrandfather)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You keep throwing out statements like that as if they were accepted Lupine\ngospel: they are not. There is no textual evidence that Inire is either a\nshape-changer or Sev's grandfather. You pile speculation upon speculation in\nfurtherance of one or another of your theories and/or some Grand Unified\nTheory, no matter the cost to logic or the text. For example, you have\nproposed that at least three male characters in the Urth Cycle (the old man\nat Casdoe's cabin, the old leech and, IIRC, Ceryx) are really females,\ndespite there not being a shred of textual evidence to support the notion.\nWill that be enough to make the text fit the theory?\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T19:43:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 12:33 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nIt is Lupine Gospel, however, that Dorcas and the boatman are Severian's paternal grandparents, yes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that Dorcas is his paternal grandmother, and that the boatman\nwas her husband. Marriage is not prima facie evidence of paternity ;)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-06T20:00:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Wolfe provides all the evidence needed to conclude that Dorcas and\nthe old boatman are Severian's grandparents.\n\n1. The old boatman speaks of his dead wife \"Cas\" just before Dorcas is\nresurrected (Shadow, XXII).\n2. The mysterious note found by Severian in the Inn of Lost Loves (Shadow,\nXXV) refers to Dorcas as \"my mother come again.\" The note is later revealed\nto have been written by Ouen, the waiter.\n3. Ouen, Severian learns, is his father. Ouen has a locket with a picture\nof his mother, which is a picture of Dorcas (Citadel, XXXVII). Ouen looks\nlike her, but the innkeeper points out that Ouen looks even more like\nSeverian (Citadel, XXXVII).\n\nThere are other pieces of evidence, too, but I think this is enough." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Aug 6, 2010 at 3:33 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nIt is Lupine Gospel, however, that Dorcas and the boatman are Severian's\npaternal grandparents, yes?\n\n...ryan\n\nOn Aug 6, 2010, at 3:30 PM, \"Roy C. Lackey\" wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson's comment about Dorcas and the boatman brought this topic to\nmind. Rudesind as Inire has been discussed lately, but not the boatman I\nthink.\nIt is recognized that a weakness in such a scenario involves the boatman\nnot really\nbeing dead or that there are multiple versions of Inire which have\nvarying\nlifespans." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yeah, those were among my objections years ago when you first brought\nthis\nup, and they still obtain.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think Severian's descriptions of Father Inire as always off stage, and\nif on stage, in\ndisguise, never revealed is, in some way, a sign of respect for the deep\ninstinct of the\nshape-changing sort of being that Father Inire is (respect also for\nbeing\nhis vizier and\ngrandfather)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "You keep throwing out statements like that as if they were accepted\nLupine\ngospel: they are not. There is no textual evidence that Inire is either a\nshape-changer or Sev's grandfather. You pile speculation upon speculation\nin\nfurtherance of one or another of your theories and/or some Grand Unified\nTheory, no matter the cost to logic or the text. For example, you have\nproposed that at least three male characters in the Urth Cycle (the old\nman\nat Casdoe's cabin, the old leech and, IIRC, Ceryx) are really females,\ndespite there not being a shred of textual evidence to support the\nnotion.\nWill that be enough to make the text fit the theory?\n\n-Roy\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-07T11:04:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey- You keep throwing out statements like that as if they were accepted Lupine\ngospel: they are not. There is no textual evidence that Inire is either a\nshape-changer or Sev's grandfather. You pile speculation upon speculation in\nfurtherance of one or another of your theories and/or some Grand Unified\nTheory, no matter the cost to logic or the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAh, Roy, I despair. How could you hurt me, once again, by implying I have some belief in\n\"Lupine gospel\". I don't even believe in any sort of gospel regarding the real world. How\ncould I espouse such superstition regarding a work of fiction? I think I qualify my \nsuggestions with terms such as \"I think\" and \"is possible\" quite enough to dispel any notion\nI am attempting to write something with biblical authority.\n \nBut if I am compelled to defend my logic, I suppose, again, I must. I will contrast my idea that\nFather Inire is a shape-shifter with the idea that the maid-actress who plays Holy Katharine is\nSeverian's mother. That inference is based on hair color, the name Catherine and reference to a\npool of still water. Pretty flimsy evidence. Not very logical. Some don't buy it. Others who do\nare willing to make a small leap of faith because, I think, they feel we are expected by the \nauthor to figure out who Severian's mother is. Maid Katharine is the best suggestion I've heard.\n \nMy inference regarding Father Inire is likewise inspired by a feeling that we are supposed to \nfigure out a mystery regarding this guy. There is textual evidence too numerous to mention that\nthe aliens in this story are analagous to our pagan gods, monsters and angels. Many, many pagan\ngods, monsters and angel myths describe the ability to shape change. *Father Inire is an alien.* \n \nSo the suggestion that Inire might be a shape changer is hardly illogical or completely \nunsupported by the text. Shapeshifting is invoked numerous times in this story. Wolfe uses \nshapeshifting characters explicitly in some of his other stories. I don't see how one could claim\nthe idea of Father Inire as shapeshifter is impossible to have been on Gene Wolfe's mind as he \nwrote this story.\n \nIf you feel there is no mystery to be solved regarding Father Inire, that's fine. If you have an\nalternate, better theory regarding his mystery I am certainly interested in hearing it. \n \nBut if I am being told I have no right to even suggest a shape-shifting theory then I expect equal\ncriticism for any poster who suggests Maid Katharine is Severian's mother. My theory has supporting \nevidence all through the text; far better supported than Catherine with her dark hair, misspelled\nname and a puddle in the woods ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5D4058.2000200@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-07T11:15:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/7/2010 6:04 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nMy inference regarding Father Inire is likewise inspired by a feeling that we are supposed to\nfigure out a mystery regarding this guy. There is textual evidence too numerous to mention that\nthe aliens in this story are analagous to our pagan gods, monsters and angels. Many, many pagan\ngods, monsters and angel myths describe the ability to shape change. *Father Inire is an alien.*\n\nSo the suggestion that Inire might be a shape changer is hardly illogical or completely\nunsupported by the text. Shapeshifting is invoked numerous times in this story. Wolfe uses\nshapeshifting characters explicitly in some of his other stories. I don't see how one could claim\nthe idea of Father Inire as shapeshifter is impossible to have been on Gene Wolfe's mind as he\nwrote this story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tzadkiel overtly changes shape, and the armigette becomes a bird in one \nof the lazarette stories. Can you refresh my memory about where else \nshapeshifting is referenced?\n\nAnd do Inire's various roles call for actual shapeshifting, or some \nfacial disguise and a shot of cortisone so he's no longer quite so bent \nover?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-07T11:35:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C5D4058.2000200@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "John Watkins: The thing that's great about this list is that those are really good\nquestions that I wouldn't have asked if it weren't for you pointed out the\nconnection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John, aside from the \"Dammit, Lee\" that was my favorite part of your last post. It\nhas happened for me quite a number of times. Suggestions from people with theories\nI don't agree with are often what inspires me to the best refinements of my own theory." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It isn't established that Inire is the son of Erebus or has any such connection at all, \nor that he has any connection with Charon. Instead, in the last few weeks we've \ndeveloped a somewhat logical connection between Fenrir and Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI like the Fenrir discussion. The tie to Gyoll is nice. But, as someone pointed out, it\nrelies on an anagram, which is not very Wolfean. But I don't mean to step on it, if there \nis more productivity to come from it.\n \nFor me another recent discovery is far more compelling.That being that \"inire\" is the source\nword for Inuus, the copulatory epithet for the god Faunus/Pan. The Latin origin of \"Inire\"\nties nicely with the names of some other, related characters, Cumaean, Famulimus and Barbatus\nThis consistency in naming does seem Wolfean. (I see these characters as related though two \nare fallen and ugly and two are unfallen and beautiful).\n \nThe connection between Faunus and his copulatory habits with animals seems like it could be \nrelated on a number of different levels with regard to Father Inire and various characters and \ncreatures in this story. Moreover I can't help but like the connection between Faunus/Pan and \nthe Long Sun.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-07T11:41:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Quick additional thought. The Cumaean is shown to be a shapeshifter \nabout as explicitly as anything we'll get from Wolfe. Inire and The\nCumaean are lumped together as similar beings. Why is it difficult\nto suppose that Inire might have an alternate form as she does? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5D5A03.9070100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-07T13:05:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because she doesn't have an alternative form." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nQuick additional thought. The Cumaean is shown to be a shapeshifter \nabout as explicitly as anything we'll get from Wolfe. Inire and The\nCumaean are lumped together as similar beings. Why is it difficult\nto suppose that Inire might have an alternate form as she does? \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net\n\n\n---\navast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.\nVirus Database (VPS): 100806-1, 08/06/2010\nTested on: 8/7/2010 7:42:34 AM\navast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.\nhttp://www.avast.com\n\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-07T13:07:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 7:35 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nThe connection between Faunus and his copulatory habits with animals seems\nlike it could be\nrelated on a number of different levels with regard to Father Inire and\nvarious characters and\ncreatures in this story. Moreover I can't help but like the connection\nbetween Faunus/Pan and\nthe Long Sun.\n\nThis is another example. There is no textual evidence that Inire copulates\nwith anything. But you like the Inuus point because it fits in with this\nthing about copulation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's why I don't like the Inuus point particularly.\n\n1) The connection to \"Inuus\" could well be coincidental, as the decision to\ngive the character a name punning on \"inire\" and \"finire\" is a decision to\nemploy the root meaning \"to enter\" that is the basis of \"Inuus.\"\n\n2) Typhon is already a Pan/Faunus analogue, and is evidently on the other\nside of the cosmic battlelines than Inire.\n\n3) The presence of the river Gyoll is, as James Wynn has pointed out,\npractically a demand that we identify the Fenrir in the story. Not only is\nFather Inire's name a near-anagram, but the idea of Fenrir chained ties in\nneatly with Inire's thousand-year servitude to the Autarch. This is aside\nfrom Wolfe's reputation for hiding at least one wolf in all his novels.\n\nBut this is rather beside the point, because even if Inire is meant to refer\nto Inuus rather than Fenrir, neither of those people are Charon/Chairon.\n\nFinally, with regard to the Cumaean, a strong case has been made here\nrecently that she is not a shapeshifter at all but that Severian briefly\nsees her four-dimensional body. (There are other possibilities as\nwell--e.g., she's always snaky but employs some form of illusion.) Whether\nor not that is true, I assume you will recognize the tremendous leap\nrequired from \"the Cumaean has a snaky alternate form\" to \"Father Inire\npossesses Tzadkiel-style shapeshifting, mass altering, and polylocation\npowers.\"\n\nAs for her shapeshifting being demonstrated as clearly as anything in Wolfe,\nI only note that at the very least Tzadkiel's shapeshifting is more clearly\ndemonstrated, as is the more limited shapeshifting possessed by inhumi and\nseveral characters in The Wizard Knight (Baki and Uri, Gylf and Setr at\nleast). More recently, An Evil Guest and The Sorceror's House both feature\novert and probably covert shapeshifters. I expect there are many more\nexamples.\n\nThen there is the fact that despite having such shapeshifting powers as you\nhypothesize, Inire seemingly principally disguises himself as bent old men.\nThat's an inconvenient fact for a theory of a Tzadkiel-like Inire." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<45DA3DE3-D580-4DB1-8F44-1BCDBB5CB9B5@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-07T14:20:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another thing. I think in some ways, UotNS is basically BotNS For Dummies. Zak is, to me, a demonstration of shapeshifting so undeniable that we may be prompted to look back at the tetralogy and inspect that concept further. I think UotNS could be used as a code breaker for several BotNS mysteries.\n\nIf you're smelling what I'm cooking, who might Zak/Tzdakiel be pointing to in BotNS? I can think of no other candidate as good as Inire. Hethor maybe a close second, but Inire, and monkey like sightings keep my arm hairs raised the more I read the original four books.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 7, 2010, at 7:04 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey- You keep throwing out statements like that as if they were accepted Lupine\ngospel: they are not. There is no textual evidence that Inire is either a\nshape-changer or Sev's grandfather. You pile speculation upon speculation in\nfurtherance of one or another of your theories and/or some Grand Unified\nTheory, no matter the cost to logic or the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, Roy, I despair. How could you hurt me, once again, by implying I have some belief in\n\"Lupine gospel\". I don't even believe in any sort of gospel regarding the real world. How\ncould I espouse such superstition regarding a work of fiction? I think I qualify my \nsuggestions with terms such as \"I think\" and \"is possible\" quite enough to dispel any notion\nI am attempting to write something with biblical authority.\n\nBut if I am compelled to defend my logic, I suppose, again, I must. I will contrast my idea that\nFather Inire is a shape-shifter with the idea that the maid-actress who plays Holy Katharine is\nSeverian's mother. That inference is based on hair color, the name Catherine and reference to a\npool of still water. Pretty flimsy evidence. Not very logical. Some don't buy it. Others who do\nare willing to make a small leap of faith because, I think, they feel we are expected by the \nauthor to figure out who Severian's mother is. Maid Katharine is the best suggestion I've heard.\n\nMy inference regarding Father Inire is likewise inspired by a feeling that we are supposed to \nfigure out a mystery regarding this guy. There is textual evidence too numerous to mention that\nthe aliens in this story are analagous to our pagan gods, monsters and angels. Many, many pagan\ngods, monsters and angel myths describe the ability to shape change. *Father Inire is an alien.* \n\nSo the suggestion that Inire might be a shape changer is hardly illogical or completely \nunsupported by the text. Shapeshifting is invoked numerous times in this story. Wolfe uses \nshapeshifting characters explicitly in some of his other stories. I don't see how one could claim\nthe idea of Father Inire as shapeshifter is impossible to have been on Gene Wolfe's mind as he \nwrote this story.\n\nIf you feel there is no mystery to be solved regarding Father Inire, that's fine. If you have an\nalternate, better theory regarding his mystery I am certainly interested in hearing it. \n\nBut if I am being told I have no right to even suggest a shape-shifting theory then I expect equal\ncriticism for any poster who suggests Maid Katharine is Severian's mother. My theory has supporting \nevidence all through the text; far better supported than Catherine with her dark hair, misspelled\nname and a puddle in the woods ;- ). \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<000f01cb3664$0bfdc100$b8cc4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-08-07T19:09:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My inference regarding Father Inire is likewise inspired by a feeling that\nwe are supposed to\nfigure out a mystery regarding this guy. There is textual evidence too\nnumerous to mention that\nthe aliens in this story are analagous to our pagan gods, monsters and\nangels. Many, many pagan\ngods, monsters and angel myths describe the ability to shape change." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*Father Inire is an alien.*\n\nThis is what I meant about some Grand Unified Theory to which many of your\nsuppositions are subordinate. It is based on the assumption that the Urth\nCycle is Wolfe's version of a Paradise Lost Revisited in which Humanity is,\nredundantly, corrupted by aliens mating with humans and, further, these\naliens, meaning Inire and, evidently, the Cumaean, are \"fallen\"\nHierogrammates analogous to Lucifer. These \"fallen\" Hierogrammates (a\nconcept for which there is no textual proof whatsoever), or at any rate\nInire, are the root cause of Urth's woes and are therefore hostile to\nefforts to revive the Red Sun, despite any appearances to the contrary.\nInire (if not along with others) screwed the people of Urth (if not all of\nHumanity) into Damnation and then, paradoxically, screwed Severian's\ngrandmother (at the very least), the end result of which was a screwed-up\nand tainted World Savior who brought Salvation of a sort and, evidently,\nsome sort of Paradise Regained, meaning Ushas.\n\nAs for \"the aliens in this story are analagous to our pagan gods, monsters\nand angels\", I will grant that Tzadkiel seems very like a Biblical angel,\nbut the analogy stops there. We see nothing of the Megatherians, and the\nother known aliens demonstrate little of gods or monsters. Homer or Ovid or\nRobert Graves and such do not separately or collectively constitute a\nRosetta Stone from which NS mysteries can be deciphered; certainly not on a\none-to-one basis. Wolfe always puts new twists on old stories when he tells\nthem, such as mixing up a Cival War naval battle with Greek myth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So the suggestion that Inire might be a shape changer is hardly illogical\nor completely\nunsupported by the text. Shapeshifting is invoked numerous times in this\nstory. Wolfe uses\nshapeshifting characters explicitly in some of his other stories. I don't\nsee how one could claim\nthe idea of Father Inire as shapeshifter is impossible to have been on\nGene Wolfe's mind as he\nwrote this story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Others have addressed this issue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you feel there is no mystery to be solved regarding Father Inire,\nthat's fine. If you have an\nalternate, better theory regarding his mystery I am certainly interested\nin hearing it.\n\nBut if I am being told I have no right to even suggest a shape-shifting\ntheory then I expect equal\ncriticism for any poster who suggests Maid Katharine is Severian's mother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My theory has supporting" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "evidence all through the text; far better supported than Catherine with\nher dark hair, misspelled\nname and a puddle in the woods ;- )." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You are free to suggest anything you like. As for your \"theory has\nsupporting evidence all through the text\", that owes more to your\nimagination than the text. You are filtering everything through the lens of\nyour Grand Unified Theory. You entertain other theories only in so far as\nthey do not conflict with yours, and take from them only what fits. If the\nonly tool you have is a hammer, . . . etc.\n\nI don't pretend to have all the answers, much less The Answer. I have made\nsuppositions but I do not build elaborate castles on them, and I abandon\nthem when they are proven wrong or more problematic than the issue they were\nintended to inform.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-07T20:04:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: John Watkins \n\n Off the cuff, to me, it suggests that Erebus is part of Severian's family tree in some sense, possibly metaphorical. The boatman, I think we agree, is Dorcas's husband and therefore likely Severian's grandfather and Ouen's father. \n\nMaybe Severian has time travelling sperm, and is his own grandfather ;-)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-07T20:19:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n\nMaybe Severian has time travelling sperm, and is his own grandfather ;-)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Presumably Tzadkiel could take the form of one of a spermatozoon, maybe even\none carrying Severian's DNA (assuming Tzadkiel can control his shapeshifting\non the molecular level. If Tzadkiel can do this, so can Inire. And the\nCumaean probably can too, although being female maybe she chooses to take\nthe form of one of Dorcas's eggs. Or one of Catherine's.\n\nSo I assume that, via shapeshifting and time travel, we now have the source\nof the terms \"Father\" for Inire and \"Mother\" for the Cumaean." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-07T21:38:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 7:04 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nBut if I am being told I have no right to even suggest a" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No one has said that. You have the right to suggest whatever you choose.\nOthers have the right to opine on the plausibility of your suggestions,\nwhich seems to trouble you, as you bemoan being \"compelled\" to defend your\narguments. That is what is called \"discussion\" and as I understand it the\npurpose of this list." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-08T03:14:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey: \nThis is what I meant about some Grand Unified Theory to which many of your\nsuppositions are subordinate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nRoy, I think you've hit the nail on the head! (hammer pun, intended, heh, heh)\nPerhaps before I've suggested that solving the puzzle(s) of BotNS feels like \nsolving a jigsaw puzzle. Perhaps you agree or perhaps not. But I think most would\nagree that solving a jigsaw involves two complementary skills: fitting small pieces\ntogether and being aware of the big picture which evolves.\n \nNow, I think you've made it clear that in regards to BotNS, you consider fitting\nthe small pieces together perfectly as most important. The big picture perhaps not\nso important. I've no objection to your approach and I appreciate any insight you might\noffer from it.\n \nFor me, the opposite is true. Unlike a jigsaw puzzle, we are not dealing with real,\n3-dimensional objects which need to be fitted together perfectly. The clues and hints\nof BotNS are all symbolic. Mental constructs. Different in every person's head \n(including Gene Wolfe's) and thus impossible to fit together seamlessly,\nlike jigsaw pieces.\n \nI think the big picture might be more achievable than spending a lifetime trying for a \nperfect fit of the small bits. So, absolutely, I do feel that once you've assembled the \nsmall bits of BotNS into a rough outline, then the big picture becomes the dominant puzzle \nsolving strategy to which the remaining loose, small bits become subordinate.\n \nOf the published authors on the topic that I've read, I've noticed a distinct lack of \nGrand Unified Theory attempts, this includes Clute, Andre-Driussi and Borski. I do \napplaud Peter Wright's attempt at it though his seems to be filtered through his own\natheistic, socialist views. I am more interested in Gene Wolfe's views which I don't\nthink are atheistic or socialist. So, my own feeble attempts at understanding Gene Wolfe\nare documented here. I (of course) have no interest in publishing.\n \nAttempts to steer me away from mistakes are appreciated. But attempts to dissuade me\nfrom even making attempts will continue to have little impact. Nothing would please\nme more than for someone to compose a Grand Unified Theory which is far better than mine.\nPerhaps my crappy attempts will inspire someone more gifted to try.\n \nI must say that I don't find compelling, the assertion that BotNS is just a simple story \nabout some guy who became king and his vizier who helped him fix the sun. I need reasons\nGene Wolfe used the names Typhon, Arioch, Inire, Mandragora, Talos etc. etc. My current \ntheory does give them. But better answers will always be appreciated.\n \nTake John Watkins' recent attempt at linking Inire's name to Fenrir. I like the wolf(e) \nreference and connection to Gyoll, urth, skuld, etc. I like the conceptual connection to \nMoses and Mt Nebo. I don't like the anagram issue nor the diversion from Latin names. So \nI see pluses and minuses to it.\n \nI'm not seeing enough connections to the rest of the story for it to replace my \nown theory yet. Perhaps it will in time. But I'm certainly not going to deride the guy for \ntrying or nag him over the fact that we never actually see Father Inire chained to a rock \nin the text or stuff like that. I'd like to see where he eventually goes with it.\n \nParadise Lost and Lucifer? Lordy, where does that come from? Not me, anyway. Aside from\nArioch I think the most likely fallen angel alluded is Azazel who, along with his peacock\nwings and other fallen angel stuff, was highly into getting human women to do \nbeautification techniques. I love seeing the possibility that whole khaibit/Jolenta/Thecla's \nbelladonna eyes/Merryn's facelift aspect of the BotNS is grounded in our earthly mythology.\n \nBut, anyone who has read my posts in recent months has seen me mention, along with Azazel,\nHermes, Hephaestus, Pan/Faunus, Typhon-Set, Prometheus, Pazuzu, Jurupari, monkey gods Hanuman \nand Sun Wukong, etc. as possible contributors to the character of Father Inire and other \naliens on Urth. I really enjoy comparative mythology and I suspect Gene Wolfe does also. Still \nI find it quite obvious that he is not only drawing from mythic influences but creating his own \nart, not simply retelling old stories in disguise. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<004301cb36b8$8b4490c0$b8cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-08-08T05:14:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the big picture might be more achievable than spending a lifetime\ntrying for a\nperfect fit of the small bits. So, absolutely, I do feel that once you've\nassembled the\nsmall bits of BotNS into a rough outline, then the big picture becomes the\ndominant puzzle\nsolving strategy to which the remaining loose, small bits become\nsubordinate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "At least you didn't deny it, which I suppose counts for something. But I\nseem to be talking right past you; either that or you are trying to enjoy a\ncabrito dinner at my expense.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paradise Lost and Lucifer? Lordy, where does that come from? Not me,\nanyway. Aside from\nArioch I think the most likely fallen angel alluded is Azazel who, along\nwith his peacock\nwings and other fallen angel stuff, was highly into getting human women to\ndo\nbeautification techniques. I love seeing the possibility that whole\nkhaibit/Jolenta/Thecla's\nbelladonna eyes/Merryn's facelift aspect of the BotNS is grounded in our\nearthly mythology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which fallen angel you want to pick is secondary to the notion of fallen\nangels = fallen Hierogrammates. The only angelic being in the Urth Cycle\nwith wings anything like a peacock's is Tzadkiel, and it was Tzadkiel who\npresided at the \"trial\" of the Epitome and set in motion the sequence of\nevents that led to the destruction of Urth and its rebirth as Ushas, said\ndestruction to be offered up to the Increate -- so said Tzadkiel. You seem\nto regard this destruction and rebirth as a good thing, leading to the Green\nMan future. Fine. But that was Tzadkiel, not Inire.\n\nI have already given my summary of your Grand Unified Theory. Aside from the\ndetails, what really gets my goat about it is that it is a logical dead end.\nJust suppose you are right, that alien Inire (for whatever reasons) was a\nfallen Hierogrammate who coupled with human women and this unholy union was\na Bad Thing. Enter Severian, Epitome of Urth, Willing Savior or Grand Dupe.\nHe goes to Yesod to win a new sun which is also the New Sun which is also\nHimself. He succeeds, wins a new sun and Ushas is born. Exactly how did he\ndo it? *He screwed an alien.* Hallelujah! Let's sing another verse.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<037767d49031b2aed40038dfb35848ce.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-08T05:41:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Presumably Tzadkiel could take the form of one of a spermatozoon, maybe\neven" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's.....quite a presumption. Textev?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-08T05:45:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "<037767d49031b2aed40038dfb35848ce.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was joking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/8/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Presumably Tzadkiel could take the form of one of a spermatozoon, maybe\neven" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's.....quite a presumption. Textev?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B2F969B255C410E889C0E09509705B1@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-08T09:28:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"John Watkins\" \nI was joking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Presumably Tzadkiel could take the form of one of a spermatozoon, maybe\neven" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's.....quite a presumption. Textev?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My proposal about Severian becoming his own grandfather by way of \ntime-travelling sperm was kind of a joke.... but to be honest I find it at \nleast as plausible as quite a few of the proposals I've seen seriously put \nforward!\n\nIt has a certain symmetry to it. It fits reasonably well with Severian's \nknown powers, which at the time of his relationship with Dorcas were not \nunder his conscious control. It also gives a rational explanation for the \nsubplot in which Dorcas turns out to be Severian's grandmother (without \nbringing in a load of unrelated incest stuff for which there is not that \nmuch in the way of textual evidence).\n\n[I wonder did such an idea inspire the makers of Futurama, in one episode of \nwhich Fry saves the Earth from the brain monsters because he is immune to \ntheir powers as a consequence of being his own grandfather? Or did they get \nthis idea elsewhere, and if so where?]\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-08T10:09:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4B2F969B255C410E889C0E09509705B1@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn: Another thing. I think in some ways, UotNS is basically BotNS For Dummies. \nZak is, to me, a demonstration of shapeshifting so undeniable that we may be prompted \nto look back at the tetralogy and inspect that concept further. I think UotNS could be \nused as a code breaker for several BotNS mysteries." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you're smelling what I'm cooking, who might Zak/Tzdakiel be pointing to in BotNS? I \ncan think of no other candidate as good as Inire. Hethor maybe a close second, but Inire, \nand monkey like sightings keep my arm hairs raised the more I read the original four books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI can whiff that funky cuisine bro. Zak does go through a primate phase, doesn't he. We see a \ncharacter who resembles Hethor on the ship also, in the weird part where Severian is \nkidnapped and ordered to move like an Autarch hologram. I find that one of the most difficult\nscenes in the 5 books to comprehend. But working on it. What IS Hethor?\n \nI once might have thought some of the stuff that happens on Yesod is new stuff, but lately\nthe sham of all that trial stuff seems to echo the sham of the Commonwealth-Ascia war \n(though such shams do kill people) and is perhaps akin to it. Burgundofora is sorta new as\nshe seems to be a combination Mary Magdalene/Judas figure. Then again The Temptation of Typhon\nalready sets up Severian as a Jesus-like figure.\n \nSo, yeah, if everything else, B, F and O, The Conciliator, Ushas, Juturna, Apu Punchau, etc., \nin UotNS refers back to the first four books, what does the the evolution and shape shifting \nof shaggy blob apport, to monkey-like thing to Zak, to Tzadkiel, male and female refer back to? \nI certainly find it to be an interesting question.\n \nThe part where Severian views Tzadkiel's portals as an advanced version of Father Inire's seems\nimportant to me. Perhaps all of the Commonwealth is run in a similar, though inferior, manner to\nTzadkiel's ship (sham battles and wars to test character and loyalty included). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-08T10:12:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like \"UotNS is basically BotNS For Dummies.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 6:09 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ryan Dunn: Another thing. I think in some ways, UotNS is basically BotNS\nFor Dummies.\nZak is, to me, a demonstration of shapeshifting so undeniable that we may\nbe prompted\nto look back at the tetralogy and inspect that concept further. I think\nUotNS could be\nused as a code breaker for several BotNS mysteries." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "If you're smelling what I'm cooking, who might Zak/Tzdakiel be pointing to\nin BotNS? I\ncan think of no other candidate as good as Inire. Hethor maybe a close\nsecond, but Inire,\nand monkey like sightings keep my arm hairs raised the more I read the\noriginal four books." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can whiff that funky cuisine bro. Zak does go through a primate phase,\ndoesn't he. We see a\ncharacter who resembles Hethor on the ship also, in the weird part where\nSeverian is\nkidnapped and ordered to move like an Autarch hologram. I find that one of\nthe most difficult\nscenes in the 5 books to comprehend. But working on it. What IS Hethor?\n\nI once might have thought some of the stuff that happens on Yesod is new\nstuff, but lately\nthe sham of all that trial stuff seems to echo the sham of the\nCommonwealth-Ascia war\n(though such shams do kill people) and is perhaps akin to it. Burgundofora\nis sorta new as\nshe seems to be a combination Mary Magdalene/Judas figure. Then again The\nTemptation of Typhon\nalready sets up Severian as a Jesus-like figure.\n\nSo, yeah, if everything else, B, F and O, The Conciliator, Ushas, Juturna,\nApu Punchau, etc.,\nin UotNS refers back to the first four books, what does the the evolution\nand shape shifting\nof shaggy blob apport, to monkey-like thing to Zak, to Tzadkiel, male and\nfemale refer back to?\nI certainly find it to be an interesting question.\n\nThe part where Severian views Tzadkiel's portals as an advanced version of\nFather Inire's seems\nimportant to me. Perhaps all of the Commonwealth is run in a similar,\nthough inferior, manner to\nTzadkiel's ship (sham battles and wars to test character and loyalty\nincluded).\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2010-08-08T10:29:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well I have just seen an advertisement for the ballet _Ondine_, the tale \nof a water nymph who is the object of desire of a young prince named \nPalemon. Presumably the name Palemon was chosen by the writers of the \nballet (it is not the same as in the novella) because of the watery \nassociations. How about Juturna x Palaemon -> Baldanders ;) The point of \nundines is they often choose or are obliged to marry a mortal man and have \none child with him.\n\nCheers, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5E996D.3020407@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2010-08-08T11:47:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sham War", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm curious why you believe the war with Ascia was a sham. Is this \nsomething you've posted about in the past?\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nI once might have thought some of the stuff that happens on Yesod is new stuff, but lately\nthe sham of all that trial stuff seems to echo the sham of the Commonwealth-Ascia war \n(though such shams do kill people) and is perhaps akin to it." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5EA99C.2060701@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-08T12:57:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "<037767d49031b2aed40038dfb35848ce.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sarcasm, I think." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn Sat, Aug 7, 2010 at 4:04 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Presumably Tzadkiel could take the form of one of a spermatozoon, maybe\neven\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's.....quite a presumption. Textev?\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-08T13:28:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sham War", "in_reply_to": "<4C5E996D.3020407@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Lebling: I'm curious why you believe the war with Ascia was a sham. Is this \nsomething you've posted about in the past?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not sure if I've posted on it in the past. I know some others have alluded to \nsimilar ideas.\n \nThe reason for thinking it, in small part, is because Father Inire, the old Autarch \nand even the Cumaean describe how they are playing for both sides of the conflict.\n \nBut the larger part comes from the comment the old Autarch makes to Severian before \nhe hands over the reins of power. He asks if Severian would prefer to command the \nAscian army. Or both armies. I take this, if not a sincere offer, as a truly possible \nsuggestion of something that could happen. A way of hinting to Severian that not all\nis as it seems.\n \nBoth Vodalus and Tzadkiel make reference to Severian's life being like a chess game,\nVodalus discussing the dark and light sides, Tzadkiel mentioning the limitations of\npawns. One of the Pelerines suggests to severian that much more is going on than a \nbattle between good and evil.\n \nMy interpretation is that the on- and off-screen powers are playing a chess\ngame here. Perhaps the same power is playing both sides. The outcome doesn't matter.\nThe purpose of the game is to test the players under game conditions...one player in \nparticular. I see a similar situation in regard to the conflicts on Tzadkiel's ship \nand Yesod.\n " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " \nFor some reason I am reminded of Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions, where the main \ncharacter (an unpleasant guy) descends into mental illness as he becomes convinced\nhe is the only human being on earth and all other people are robots sent to test him.\nAt the end, he meets his Creator (Kurt Vonnegut jr. of course) in a bar and it all \nbecomes very autobiographical and sad.\n \nI have to guess Gene Wolfe also has felt that powerful dark and light forces have been\ntesting him his whole life. I'd guess he has dealt with them a little more consciously \nand knowledgeably than Severian though on a less cosmic level. But this and others of \nhis work (Peace, surely) are his artistic way of expressing his tribulations and trials \nof life.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<128e1801b1a91d877d6c84ca681abf1c.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-08T13:38:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sham War", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My interpretation is that the on- and off-screen powers are playing a\nchess\ngame here. Perhaps the same power is playing both sides. The outcome\ndoesn't matter.\nThe purpose of the game is to test the players under game conditions...one\nplayer in\nparticular. I see a similar situation in regard to the conflicts on\nTzadkiel's ship\nand Yesod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This might be extended indefinitely upward to the Increate's plan." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-08T14:23:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 8, 2010, at 6:09 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nBurgundofora is sorta new as\nshe seems to be a combination Mary Magdalene/Judas figure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On that note, following the clue book motif, who might Gunnie/Burgundafora point back to? Anyone?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-08T14:34:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sham War", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Lebling: I'm curious why you believe the war with Ascia was a sham." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is this\nsomething you've posted about in the past?\n\nNot sure if I've posted on it in the past. I know some others have alluded\nto\nsimilar ideas.\n\nThe reason for thinking it, in small part, is because Father Inire, the old\nAutarch\nand even the Cumaean describe how they are playing for both sides of the\nconflict.\n\nBut the larger part comes from the comment the old Autarch makes to\nSeverian before\nhe hands over the reins of power. He asks if Severian would prefer to\ncommand the\nAscian army. Or both armies. I take this, if not a sincere offer, as a\ntruly possible\nsuggestion of something that could happen. A way of hinting to Severian\nthat not all\nis as it seems.\n\nBoth Vodalus and Tzadkiel make reference to Severian's life being like a\nchess game,\nVodalus discussing the dark and light sides, Tzadkiel mentioning the\nlimitations of\npawns. One of the Pelerines suggests to severian that much more is going on\nthan a\nbattle between good and evil.\n\nMy interpretation is that the on- and off-screen powers are playing a chess\ngame here. Perhaps the same power is playing both sides. The outcome\ndoesn't matter.\nThe purpose of the game is to test the players under game conditions...one\nplayer in\nparticular. I see a similar situation in regard to the conflicts on\nTzadkiel's ship\nand Yesod.\n\n--\n\nFor some reason I am reminded of Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions, where\nthe main\ncharacter (an unpleasant guy) descends into mental illness as he becomes\nconvinced\nhe is the only human being on earth and all other people are robots sent to\ntest him.\nAt the end, he meets his Creator (Kurt Vonnegut jr. of course) in a bar and\nit all\nbecomes very autobiographical and sad.\n\nI have to guess Gene Wolfe also has felt that powerful dark and light\nforces have been\ntesting him his whole life. I'd guess he has dealt with them a little more\nconsciously\nand knowledgeably than Severian though on a less cosmic level. But this and\nothers of\nhis work (Peace, surely) are his artistic way of expressing his\ntribulations and trials\nof life.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Paul B", "address": "pb.stuff at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-08T14:36:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sham War", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Er, whoops. Anyway, I'd meant to bring up the quote from Inire's letter to\nthe new Autarch in \"Citadel\" where he talks about getting the Hierogrammates\nto side with \"not just the side of Urth, but /our/ side\" (emphasis mine).\nThat seems to contradict this pretty well. Unless you'd like to come up\nwith a reason for Inire to lie so bluntly.\n\nPaul" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 10:34 AM, Paul B wrote:\n\n\nOn Sun, Aug 8, 2010 at 9:28 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Dave Lebling: I'm curious why you believe the war with Ascia was a sham." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is this\nsomething you've posted about in the past?\n\nNot sure if I've posted on it in the past. I know some others have alluded\nto\nsimilar ideas.\n\nThe reason for thinking it, in small part, is because Father Inire, the\nold Autarch\nand even the Cumaean describe how they are playing for both sides of the\nconflict.\n\nBut the larger part comes from the comment the old Autarch makes to\nSeverian before\nhe hands over the reins of power. He asks if Severian would prefer to\ncommand the\nAscian army. Or both armies. I take this, if not a sincere offer, as a\ntruly possible\nsuggestion of something that could happen. A way of hinting to Severian\nthat not all\nis as it seems.\n\nBoth Vodalus and Tzadkiel make reference to Severian's life being like a\nchess game,\nVodalus discussing the dark and light sides, Tzadkiel mentioning the\nlimitations of\npawns. One of the Pelerines suggests to severian that much more is going\non than a\nbattle between good and evil.\n\nMy interpretation is that the on- and off-screen powers are playing a\nchess\ngame here. Perhaps the same power is playing both sides. The outcome\ndoesn't matter.\nThe purpose of the game is to test the players under game conditions...one\nplayer in\nparticular. I see a similar situation in regard to the conflicts on\nTzadkiel's ship\nand Yesod.\n\n--\n\nFor some reason I am reminded of Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions, where\nthe main\ncharacter (an unpleasant guy) descends into mental illness as he becomes\nconvinced\nhe is the only human being on earth and all other people are robots sent\nto test him.\nAt the end, he meets his Creator (Kurt Vonnegut jr. of course) in a bar\nand it all\nbecomes very autobiographical and sad.\n\nI have to guess Gene Wolfe also has felt that powerful dark and light\nforces have been\ntesting him his whole life. I'd guess he has dealt with them a little more\nconsciously\nand knowledgeably than Severian though on a less cosmic level. But this\nand others of\nhis work (Peace, surely) are his artistic way of expressing his\ntribulations and trials\nof life.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004301cb3720$477f5740$cbcf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-08-08T17:36:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, yeah, if everything else, B, F and O, The Conciliator, Ushas, Juturna,\nApu Punchau, etc.,\nin UotNS refers back to the first four books, what does the the evolution\nand shape shifting\nof shaggy blob apport, to monkey-like thing to Zak, to Tzadkiel, male and\nfemale refer back to?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly that -- to the evolution of the Hierogrammates outlined in \"The Key\nto the Universe\" chapter in CITADEL. On the Ship, Severian was shown some of\nthe stages of unnatural selection imposed by the Hieros on some lowly\ncreature that eventually resulted in Tzadkiel's kind.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5F092A.8080703@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2010-08-08T19:44:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sham War", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not all that certain which specific remarks you are referring to, \nbut the Cumaean (during the scene in the stone town) talks about how \nservice to Fr. Inire is a way of keeping a finger in both pies, as it \nwere. The old Autarch talks about how Erebus would have traded him Ascia \nfor the Commonweath, if it included Severian. I think his comment about \n\"you could have both\" means, \"if you joined Erebus's side.\"\n\nI don't see a lot that says the war is a sham, just that it's part of a \nlarger war. Given that the war with Ascia is an analog of the Korean \nWar, that's hardly surprising. Many details are similar. \"We've driven \nthem back half as far as they drove us south\" (paraphrased). The Ascians \nare backed by a larger Power that really doesn't care about them. The \nwar is barely noticed day-to-day at home in the Commonwealth. The \nCommonwealth forces are multi-national. Etc. I'm sure none of these \ndetails are new to you, but they all hammer home the Ascian War/Korean \nWar analogy, in which there is a larger struggle outside that war, but \nthat war is in itself significant, not a sham.\n\n-- Dave Lebling" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Lebling: I'm curious why you believe the war with Ascia was a sham. Is this \nsomething you've posted about in the past?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not sure if I've posted on it in the past. I know some others have alluded to \nsimilar ideas.\n \nThe reason for thinking it, in small part, is because Father Inire, the old Autarch \nand even the Cumaean describe how they are playing for both sides of the conflict.\n \nBut the larger part comes from the comment the old Autarch makes to Severian before \nhe hands over the reins of power. He asks if Severian would prefer to command the \nAscian army. Or both armies. I take this, if not a sincere offer, as a truly possible \nsuggestion of something that could happen. A way of hinting to Severian that not all\nis as it seems.\n \nBoth Vodalus and Tzadkiel make reference to Severian's life being like a chess game,\nVodalus discussing the dark and light sides, Tzadkiel mentioning the limitations of\npawns. One of the Pelerines suggests to severian that much more is going on than a \nbattle between good and evil.\n \nMy interpretation is that the on- and off-screen powers are playing a chess\ngame here. Perhaps the same power is playing both sides. The outcome doesn't matter.\nThe purpose of the game is to test the players under game conditions...one player in \nparticular. I see a similar situation in regard to the conflicts on Tzadkiel's ship \nand Yesod.\n \n--\n \nFor some reason I am reminded of Vonnegut's Breakfast of Champions, where the main \ncharacter (an unpleasant guy) descends into mental illness as he becomes convinced\nhe is the only human being on earth and all other people are robots sent to test him.\nAt the end, he meets his Creator (Kurt Vonnegut jr. of course) in a bar and it all \nbecomes very autobiographical and sad.\n \nI have to guess Gene Wolfe also has felt that powerful dark and light forces have been\ntesting him his whole life. I'd guess he has dealt with them a little more consciously \nand knowledgeably than Severian though on a less cosmic level. But this and others of \nhis work (Peace, surely) are his artistic way of expressing his tribulations and trials \nof life.\n \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5F4DA7.5070608@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T00:36:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) cynocephalus (was: Re: Boatman as Inire)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 08/08/10 11:09, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nWe see a\ncharacter who resembles Hethor on the ship also, in the weird part where Severian is\nkidnapped and ordered to move like an Autarch hologram. I find that one of the most difficult\nscenes in the 5 books to comprehend. But working on it. What IS Hethor?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apart from a sad little man ... Well. It's been suggested in quite a few \nplaces afair that 'Nessus' could be a linguistic corruption of 'Buenos \nAires'. Kind of works. On the same basis - actually not so much of a \nstretch - 'Hethor' does pretty well as a linguistic corruption of \n'Ahasuerus'.\n\nOK, 'Hathor' would be more convincing, but GW couldn't use that, She's \nan Egyptian goddess of course. And having the vowel degrade back to 'e' \nover time is not implausible (cf. 'Angle-land / 'England' for instance)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I once might have thought some of the stuff that happens on Yesod is new stuff, but lately\nthe sham of all that trial stuff seems to echo the sham of the Commonwealth-Ascia war\n(though such shams do kill people) and is perhaps akin to it. Burgundofora is sorta new as\nshe seems to be a combination Mary Magdalene/Judas figure. Then again The Temptation of Typhon\nalready sets up Severian as a Jesus-like figure.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's plenty of that kind of thing throughout BOTNS without venturing \ninto 'volume 5'. Toward the end of 'Shadow', Hethor of all people is \neven heard offering to carry Terminus Est for Sev, ostensibly because \nhe's worried that the burden of this cross-like object may be too great \nto bear.\n\n(Of course given later developments, we all know this is a sham; Hethor \nis Agia's lover/spy and no doubt if Sev had given H. his 'cross' to \nbear, H. would have made off with it pronto! but the important feature \nof this little episode is the symbolism invoked, which - in the universe \nof Urth - echoes back down the ages)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So, yeah, if everything else, B, F and O, The Conciliator, Ushas, Juturna, Apu Punchau, etc.,\nin UotNS refers back to the first four books, what does the the evolution and shape shifting\nof shaggy blob apport, to monkey-like thing to Zak, to Tzadkiel, male and female refer back to?\nI certainly find it to be an interesting question.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Undoubtedly ... re-reading and noticed something I hadn't noticed for a \nwhile, which is that the monkey-like thing on Tzadkiel's Ship is not the \nfirst monkey-like thing Sev has come across (and I am not referring here \nto the shaman of bk. 4) - while Sev lies recovering from the avern-wound \nin the soldiers' lazaret toward the end of 'Shadow', he sees a \n'cynocephalus' (ape with a dog's head) running across the floor. He \nthinks he's dreaming or delirious - but he then goes on to see the same \ncreature when he knows he's in his right mind (in so far as he ever is \n:) ).\n\nVery interesting, but as of right now I have no idea what if anything \nthis refers to, save forward to the ape-like creature on the Ship (or, \nif you prefer, that ape-like creature may refer back to the cynocephalus \nepisode).\n\nstrange stuff indeed\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<9778E266-14E0-4331-89F5-E12F3357AEB3@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T00:52:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) cynocephalus (was: Re: Boatman as Inire)", "in_reply_to": "<4C5F4DA7.5070608@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 8, 2010, at 8:36 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nUndoubtedly ... re-reading and noticed something I hadn't noticed for a while, which is that the monkey-like thing on Tzadkiel's Ship is not the first monkey-like thing Sev has come across (and I am not referring here to the shaman of bk. 4) - while Sev lies recovering from the avern-wound in the soldiers' lazaret toward the end of 'Shadow', he sees a 'cynocephalus' (ape with a dog's head) running across the floor. He thinks he's dreaming or delirious - but he then goes on to see the same creature when he knows he's in his right mind (in so far as he ever is :) )." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's also this...\n\n\"Birds unknown to me called overhead, and once a monkey who might, save for his four hands, have been a wizened, red-bearded man in fur, spied on me from a fork as high as a spire.\"\n(CotC, Chap. 25, \"The Attack on the Hierodules\")" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T03:31:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "<004301cb3720$477f5740$cbcf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn: who might Gunnie/Burgundafora point back to? Anyone?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDo you have someone in mind? \n \nMy best thought would be Agia. She also was a female companion who \nbetrayed Severian. But they seem so different. Burgundofora meant \nwell but she lacked character and bravery. Agia was oozing with \ncharacter and bravery but she meant ill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey- the evolution of the Hierogrammates outlined in \"The Key\nto the Universe\" chapter in CITADEL. On the Ship, Severian was shown some of\nthe stages of unnatural selection imposed by the Hieros on some lowly\ncreature that eventually resulted in Tzadkiel's kind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is a very reasonable and plausible explanation of Zak's\nevolution. But perhaps not complete. Maybe more meaning can be derived.\n \nWhat would happen if a Hierogrammate were interupted in its evolution and\ndid not complete the journey to angelic being? We are told the process \ninvolved uncountable billions suffering and dying, leaving ineradicable \nmemories of pain and blood. Would it be so surprising that some of those\nbillions rebelled and refused to complete the process? Where might such an\ninterupted, fallen being go?\n \nRoy if I remember correctly you place a lot of stock in this exchange:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian- \"...the Cumaean, she was a Hierodule, like you. Father Inire told\nme.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Famulimus and Barbatus nodded." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI can't remember if I've mentioned my reservations. This exchange could mean that\nyes, Father Inire and The Cumaean are hierodules. Simple. End of story.\n \nBut I consider that perhaps Famulimus and Barbatus' nods only concur that this is \nwhat Father Inire tells his Autarchs.\n \nWe find no explanation for why Hierodules are tall, young, beautiful people who\nspeak gravely, move gracefully and speak with utmost respect for Severian. \nContrast them with The Cumaean and Inire who are short, old, ugly creepy people \nwho speak harshly or a bit insouciantly to Severian (if we may take Inire's note as \nspeech).\n \nI demand an explanation for the difference. And a very helpful one has been to \nconsider that Inire and Cumaean are not really Hierodules but something else, \nrather different. I just can't see Barbatus and Famulimus scaring little girls\nwith mirrors, mucking around with Agia, consorting with witches or inviting people\ninto their cave, never to return. I can't help but think there is something wrong \nwith the Hierodule picture for I and C. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3B0F095B-FF16-494F-97C0-DA69B1C9A3F0@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T03:40:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Aug 8, 2010, at 11:31 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nRyan Dunn: who might Gunnie/Burgundafora point back to? Anyone?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Do you have someone in mind? \n\nMy best thought would be Agia. She also was a female companion who \nbetrayed Severian. But they seem so different. Burgundofora meant \nwell but she lacked character and bravery. Agia was oozing with \ncharacter and bravery but she meant ill." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mean two women who coexist at different ages, but are in fact the same person. And no, I don't have anyone in mind right now, but Dorcas and Valeria are potential candidates, having been messed with time-wise. I'm thinking if there is a connection back to BotNS, it would be a female. Jolenta is the waitress under a glamour spell, but Burgundofora and Gunnie attended the ships, which allowed time overlap.\n\nPerhaps this situation has more to do with revealing what happens if there are more than one instance of a person in close proximity, and how that relates back to BotNS. Severian is close to Apu Punchau in UotNS, and for a moment in BotNS, and apparently comes out fine. Hildegrin not so much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy if I remember correctly you place a lot of stock in this exchange:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian- \"...the Cumaean, she was a Hierodule, like you. Father Inire told me.\"\nFamulimus and Barbatus nodded." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't remember if I've mentioned my reservations. This exchange could mean that\nyes, Father Inire and The Cumaean are hierodules. Simple. End of story.\n\nBut I consider that perhaps Famulimus and Barbatus' nods only concur that this is \nwhat Father Inire tells his Autarchs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You do agree, though, that Inire is (to Severian's knowledge) definitely a cacogen, like the Cumaean?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T03:49:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sham War", "in_reply_to": "<4C5F092A.8080703@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Paul B: I'd meant to bring up the quote from Inire's letter to\nthe new Autarch in \"Citadel\" where he talks about getting the Hierogrammates\nto side with \"not just the side of Urth, but /our/ side\" (emphasis mine).\nThat seems to contradict this pretty well. Unless you'd like to come up\nwith a reason for Inire to lie so bluntly." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt is a good point to bring up. I must say that I do not share your assumption\nthat when Father Inire refers to his \"cousins\" that this must mean \nHierogrammates. We see F, B and O trying to distribute technology and disseminate\nknowledge without malice or prejudice. Prime Directive. \n \nI can't see them beseeching Tzadkiel for more weapons so that one side will win a \npetty war on a small planet. This doesn't seem like very divine behavior. Quite the\nopposite. And I have quite a few reasons to think that Father Inire has reason to lie\nto Severian (an example given in my most recent *Boatman as Inire* post). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T04:09:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sham War", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Lebling- The Ascians are backed by a larger Power that really \ndoesn't care about them. The war is barely noticed day-to-day at home \nin the Commonwealth. The Commonwealth forces are multi-national. Etc. \nI'm sure none of these details are new to you, but they all hammer home \nthe Ascian War/Korean War analogy, in which there is a larger struggle \noutside that war, but that war is in itself significant, not a sham." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI certainly agree with the autobiographical nature of the Korean/Ascian\nwar. And I certainly agree that Wolfe thinks wars are very significant\nto the people who are fighting in them. Perhaps Wolfe is suggesting they \nare not so significant to the greater powers which put the war into motion \nand even less significant to the higher power above that.\n \nRegardless of Mr. Wolfe's personal political leanings, I have a difficult\ntime thinking (based on his writing) that he feels God and Jesus wanted the\nUSA and democracy to win and N. Korea and communism to lose and that this\nwas God's significant battlefield where He would vanquish His enemies, etc." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From an Urthly, cosmic, divine point of view, I don't see how the \nCommonwealth/Ascia war can be seen as significant when everyone who won the\nwar, lost the war, all their families and friends and fellow citizens and \ncomrades would all be dead and submerged within a few decades. A long, \nbitterly fought war with so much resources spent, so many dead, so many \nwounded and...for what?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI can imagine Gene Wolfe reading The Bible and, at the end, thinking the \nsame about the Korean War. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T04:21:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) cynocephalus", "in_reply_to": "<9778E266-14E0-4331-89F5-E12F3357AEB3@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney- as of right now I have no idea what if anything \nthis refers to, save forward to the ape-like creature on the Ship (or, \nif you prefer, that ape-like creature may refer back to the cynocephalus " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There has been some rather lively discussion, originating with Robert Borski\n(Solar Labyrinth) and elaborated in here, that Father Inire, called monkey-\nlike in his first description, may be a shapeshifter who appears as the \ncynocephalus (a.k.a. baboon), a uakari and perhaps some other monkeys too.\nJust to keep tabs on Severian.\n \nThere has been discussion of some other monkey-like characters and their \npossible relationship to the elusive Father Inire. Some do not like the\nidea. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<691182134-1281328240-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1814871011-@bda615.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "from": { "name": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-08-09T04:30:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) cynocephalus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has anyone suggested that the ape like figures and Inire in particular are Inhumi and that's how they got on the Whorl before it orbited Blue and Green?\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Date: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 00:21:24 \nTo: \nReply-To: The Urth Mailing List \nSubject: (urth) cynocephalus\nJane Delawney- as of right now I have no idea what if anything \nthis refers to, save forward to the ape-like creature on the Ship (or, \nif you prefer, that ape-like creature may refer back to the cynocephalus " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There has been some rather lively discussion, originating with Robert Borski\n(Solar Labyrinth) and elaborated in here, that Father Inire, called monkey-\nlike in his first description, may be a shapeshifter who appears as the \ncynocephalus (a.k.a. baboon), a uakari and perhaps some other monkeys too.\nJust to keep tabs on Severian.\n \nThere has been discussion of some other monkey-like characters and their \npossible relationship to the elusive Father Inire. Some do not like the\nidea. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5F8593.9030706@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T04:35:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) cynocephalus", "in_reply_to": "<691182134-1281328240-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1814871011-@bda615.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 08/08/2010 11:30 PM, hammstu at sbcglobal.net wrote:\nHas anyone suggested that the ape like figures and Inire in particular are Inhumi and that's how they got on the Whorl before it orbited Blue and Green?\nSent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inire as inhumus has certainly been floated before, although I seem to \nrecall discussion focussing on the wry neck rather than the monkeytude.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003a01cb378f$d076f8e0$ddd04a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-08-09T06:55:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nWhat would happen if a Hierogrammate were interupted in its evolution and\ndid not complete the journey to angelic being? We are told the process\ninvolved uncountable billions suffering and dying, leaving ineradicable\nmemories of pain and blood. Would it be so surprising that some of those\nbillions rebelled and refused to complete the process? Where might such an\ninterupted, fallen being go?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're really reaching, Lee. Almost by definition, the billions who suffered\nand died in the process had no choice in the matter. And if the process had\nnot been completed, they would not have become Hierogrammates. Besides, we\nare explicitly told that when the manvantara in which the Hieros had formed\nthe Hierogrammates was destroyed, the Hierogrammates had escaped to Yesod,\nand that of all the works of the mighty Hieros of that manvantara, only the\nHierogrammates remained (URTH, XIX, 137-38). That puts an end to that\nnotion, I hope. The death of a universe is about as final as it gets." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy if I remember correctly you place a lot of stock in this exchange:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian- \"...the Cumaean, she was a Hierodule, like you. Father Inire\ntold\nme.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Famulimus and Barbatus nodded." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't remember if I've mentioned my reservations. This exchange could\nmean that\nyes, Father Inire and The Cumaean are hierodules. Simple. End of story.\n\nBut I consider that perhaps Famulimus and Barbatus' nods only concur that\nthis is\nwhat Father Inire tells his Autarchs." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Come on. That exchange took place in Apu-Punchau's tomb *after* Severian had\nbrought the new sun and Ushas was an established fact. The game was over;\nthere was no longer any point in deceptions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We find no explanation for why Hierodules are tall, young, beautiful\npeople who\nspeak gravely, move gracefully and speak with utmost respect for Severian.\nContrast them with The Cumaean and Inire who are short, old, ugly creepy\npeople\nwho speak harshly or a bit insouciantly to Severian (if we may take\nInire's note as\nspeech).\n\nI demand an explanation for the difference. And a very helpful one has\nbeen to\nconsider that Inire and Cumaean are not really Hierodules but something\nelse,\nrather different. I just can't see Barbatus and Famulimus scaring little\ngirls\nwith mirrors, mucking around with Agia, consorting with witches or\ninviting people\ninto their cave, never to return. I can't help but think there is\nsomething wrong\nwith the Hierodule picture for I and C." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't help that. The text is what it is. As I've said before, not all\nHierodules need be of the same species or race; a holy slave is more a title\nthan a particular species.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5FAE04.3060905@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T07:28:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "<3B0F095B-FF16-494F-97C0-DA69B1C9A3F0@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/8/2010 10:40 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Aug 8, 2010, at 11:31 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Ryan Dunn: who might Gunnie/Burgundafora point back to? Anyone?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Do you have someone in mind?\n\nMy best thought would be Agia. She also was a female companion who\nbetrayed Severian. But they seem so different. Burgundofora meant\nwell but she lacked character and bravery. Agia was oozing with\ncharacter and bravery but she meant ill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mean two women who coexist at different ages, but are in fact the same person. And no, I don't have anyone in mind right now, but Dorcas and Valeria are potential candidates, having been messed with time-wise. I'm thinking if there is a connection back to BotNS, it would be a female. Jolenta is the waitress under a glamour spell, but Burgundofora and Gunnie attended the ships, which allowed time overlap." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gunnie (the elder) had some of Agia's gumption as well, even if she let \nherself be turned about morally as thoroughly as she was temporally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps this situation has more to do with revealing what happens if there are more than one instance of a person in close proximity, and how that relates back to BotNS. Severian is close to Apu Punchau in UotNS, and for a moment in BotNS, and apparently comes out fine. Hildegrin not so much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There may be some kind of temporal grace aboard the Big Ship, otherwise \nTzadkiel would be zapping itself as parts came and went - unless \nTzadkiel is a collective being like I've been thinking lately.\n\nThere may also be some difference as Gunnie presumably comes by her \nbilocation honestly rather than through any aquastor/eidolon duplication." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy if I remember correctly you place a lot of stock in this exchange:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Severian- \"...the Cumaean, she was a Hierodule, like you. Father Inire told me.\"\nFamulimus and Barbatus nodded." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I can't remember if I've mentioned my reservations. This exchange could mean that\nyes, Father Inire and The Cumaean are hierodules. Simple. End of story.\n\nBut I consider that perhaps Famulimus and Barbatus' nods only concur that this is\nwhat Father Inire tells his Autarchs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You do agree, though, that Inire is (to Severian's knowledge) definitely a cacogen, like the Cumaean?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What do you mean by \"cacogen\" here? If you mean \"non-human intelligent \ncreature not of Urthly descent\", it doesn't seem to discriminate between \nthe various kinds. If you mean \"cacogen\" the way that the characters in \nthe story use it, I don't think we actually meet any in the BOTNS, since \nit emerges that the hierodules wear \"disgusting alien monster\" masks to \npass as aliens from elsewhere in the Milky Way, instead of the masters \nof time and space from Yesod. This is a somewhat benign form of the \nalien conspiracy masquerading as an alien conspiracy trope perhaps first \nappearing in HPL's _THE WHISPERER IN DARKNESS_.\n\naaaaaaeehhiijnnorrrstu" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5FC010.3040103@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T08:45:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "<003a01cb378f$d076f8e0$ddd04a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/9/2010 1:55 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nCome on. That exchange took place in Apu-Punchau's tomb *after* Severian had\nbrought the new sun and Ushas was an established fact. The game was over;\nthere was no longer any point in deceptions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Was there a point in resurrecting him in the first place?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can't help that. The text is what it is. As I've said before, not all\nHierodules need be of the same species or race; a holy slave is more a title\nthan a particular species." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Indeed.\n\nAnd even if they are of the same stock, they may have their own \nimperfect forms of artificial longevity, so that bent and twisted Inire \nand Cumaean is what's left after beautiful Famulimus and \nBarbatus-cohorts have been kept under maintenance for centuries past \ntheir expiration dates." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T12:26:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C5FC010.3040103@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey- You're really reaching, Lee. Almost by definition, the billions\nwho suffered and died in the process had no choice in the matter. And if the \nprocess had not been completed, they would not have become Hierogrammates. \nBesides, we are explicitly told that when the manvantara in which the Hieros\nhad formed the Hierogrammates was destroyed, the Hierogrammates had escaped \nto Yesod, and that of all the works of the mighty Hieros of that manvantara, \nonly the Hierogrammates remained (URTH, XIX, 137-38). That puts an end to that\nnotion, I hope. The death of a universe is about as final as it gets." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI guess I am reaching beyond your interpretation of the text but I don't\nsee anything wrong with that. Why should there be an end to expansion of current\nmodes of thought when I, and others, find them incomplete and unsatisfactory?\n \nI think your 4-D thinking is off in interpreting the \"History\" of the Universe. \nYes, the Hierogrammates escaped to Yesod and all that the Hieros created was \ndestroyed in the death of the previous universe. But the universe lower than \nYesod is Briah. Thus \"history\" of the destruction of Briah is actually far in\nUrth/Ushas's future. Any failed Hierogrammates would be trapped in Briah which\nis what I think we could be seeing in Inire and the Cumaean. \n \nUshas is created because it is a necessary stage in the creation of Hierogrammates,\nyes? Each race creates the other. Thus Hierogrammates must be created in the \nfuture of Ushas (Hieros are green men maybe?). That's how I currently see it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- And even if they are of the same stock, they may have their own \nimperfect forms of artificial longevity, so that bent and twisted Inire \nand Cumaean is what's left after beautiful Famulimus and \nBarbatus-cohorts have been kept under maintenance for centuries past \ntheir expiration dates." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Borski has proposed that Mother Cumaean and Father Inire are the parents \nof Barbatus and Famulimus. I prefer your idea that they are older, messed up \nversions...in your view, any chance they could, in fact, BE older, bent versions\nof Barbatus and Famulimus?\n \nFor me, simple aging is not enough explanation. Their personalities and speech\npatterns and behavior are different also. Such a common SF trope that the good\nsuperior interstellar beings remain above the fray, while the bad ones get \npersonally involved and take sides and set themselves up as minor gods among\nthe primitives. I suppose it could be argued that long residence on Urth has \ncorrupted their behavior as well as their physical appearance. But is just another \nway of saying they are fallen versions of the angelic hierodules.\n \n \n \n[I once read a short SF story which sort of violated the Prime Directive principle.\nA modern jet pilot found himself and his plane time-transported to WWI. He managed \nto refine enough kerosene into jet fuel so that he could launch and shred the jerries\nin their pathetic, kite-like bi-planes. I expected bad karma to result but nope. He \nwas a hero. It was a very repulsive story to me, ethically. On the other hand I didn't\nmind Connecticut Yankee in King Arthur's Court for some reason] \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T12:56:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess I am reaching beyond your interpretation of the text but I don't" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "see anything wrong with that. Why should there be an end to expansion of\ncurrent\nmodes of thought when I, and others, find them incomplete and\nunsatisfactory?\n\nI think your 4-D thinking is off in interpreting the \"History\" of the\nUniverse.\nYes, the Hierogrammates escaped to Yesod and all that the Hieros created\nwas\ndestroyed in the death of the previous universe. But the universe lower\nthan\nYesod is Briah. Thus \"history\" of the destruction of Briah is actually far\nin\nUrth/Ushas's future. Any failed Hierogrammates would be trapped in Briah\nwhich\nis what I think we could be seeing in Inire and the Cumaean.\n\nI think you have this wrong. Very wrong, in fact. Briah is not the lower\nuniverse that the Hierogrammates escaped from. It is a lower universe being\nfarmed by the Hierogrammates following the death of their original\nuniverse. Apheta is very clear that the Hierogrammates were created by a\nrace \"cognate\" to Severian's and confirms his impression that this occurred\nin a previous manvantara." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ushas is created because it is a necessary stage in the creation of\nHierogrammates,\nyes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, it's a necessary step for the creation of Hieros. The Yesod\nHierogrammates are trying to recreate the race that created them, but not\ntheir literal, temporal percursors (call those the \"Yesod Hieros.\") They\nare trying to breed Briah Hieros and then use them in some manner to escape\nYesod to a higher universe yet.\n\nIf the Briah Hieros then go on to produce Briah Hierogrammates, that's\ninconsequential to the Yesod Hierogrammates--they will be long gone. It\ndoes seem to be Apheta's assumption that the cycle would continue and that\nBriah Hieros would produce Briah Hierogrammates. But it isn't actually\nimportant to the Hierogrammates' goals." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Each race creates the other. Thus Hierogrammates must be created in the\nfuture of Ushas (Hieros are green men maybe?). That's how I currently see\nit.\n\nNot \"*must* be.\" \"*May* be.\" The Hierogrammates are seeking to\neffectuate this future, and Severian apparently helps them to do so. But it\nis not a necessary future, at least on Urth, as Master Ash confirms." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Borski has proposed that Mother Cumaean and Father Inire are the\nparents\nof Barbatus and Famulimus. I prefer your idea that they are older, messed\nup\nversions...in your view, any chance they could, in fact, BE older, bent\nversions\nof Barbatus and Famulimus?\n\nNot directed to me, but there is no reason to make this assumption. I\nthink it is far more likely that the are the same sort of beings extended in\nlife beyond what is natural for their kinds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, simple aging is not enough explanation. Their personalities and\nspeech\npatterns and behavior are different also. Such a common SF trope that the\ngood\nsuperior interstellar beings remain above the fray, while the bad ones get\npersonally involved and take sides and set themselves up as minor gods\namong\nthe primitives. I suppose it could be argued that long residence on Urth\nhas\ncorrupted their behavior as well as their physical appearance. But is just\nanother\nway of saying they are fallen versions of the angelic hierodules.\n\nThere is also a trope of the \"good\" fallen angel--a higher being whose sin,\nas it were, is caring too much about the lowly humans it is charged with\noverseeing. Captain Kirk's willy-nilly disregard of Prime Directive comes\nto mind, as does the Doctor and Uatu the Watcher (oh, and Zauriel...and\narguably the Green Lantern...the Silver Surfer...I could go on, although I'm\nhesistant in ascribing comic book inspiration to Wolfe unless there's a\nspecific connection to look to.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T13:12:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) cynocephalus", "in_reply_to": "<4C5F8593.9030706@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "hammstu- Has anyone suggested that the ape like figures and Inire in particular are Inhumi\nand that's how they got on the Whorl before it orbited Blue and Green?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think it is a good idea. Quetzal bears some resemblance to Inire. Moreover using the \nbird-name Quetzal can't help but invoke the Mayan god Quezalcoatl. For me, this is yet \nanother of the knowledge-and-civilization bringing sort of pagan gods which I think are \nalluded to in Urth's story. Moreover there is significant vampiric allusion to be found\nin the BotNS story.\n \nIn the recent, astute post of Roy C. Lackey, he suggests that the ontological evolution of \nTzadkiel from shaggy blob to giant angelic being might (well, he doesn't say \"might\")\nrecapitulate the phylogenic evolution of the Hierogrammate race. If so, we can guess that \neven the shaggy blob which has only the potential for intelligence does possess the capacity\nfor shape-shifting. It does bring to mind the primitive, shape shifting beings on Green from\nwhich the Inhumi originated. (likewise the primitive origins of shape-shifting Shadow Children\nin Fifth Head of Cerberus). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C5FFFC8.9010508@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T13:16:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sham War", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 8/8/2010 11:09 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nRegardless of Mr. Wolfe's personal political leanings, I have a difficult\ntime thinking (based on his writing) that he feels God and Jesus wanted the\nUSA and democracy to win and N. Korea and communism to lose and that this\nwas God's significant battlefield where He would vanquish His enemies, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not so sure he would be so cosmopolitan about the Korean War as this \nimplies. Seeing what North Korea has become, knowing what the Soviet \nUnion was like and what happened 25 years later under Mao, I'm not so \nsure _I_ feel this way and I have far less skin invested in that war \nthan Mr. Wolfe.\n\nHowever, the one word that describes the meta-plot of the BotNS and \nUotNS is \"uber-determined\". There is no doubt in my mind that if \nHierogrammates wanted the Commonwealth to liberate Ascia--or if they had \nwanted to undermine their government--they could have done so. They had \nTime travel, mirrors, and other near-divine technology at their \ndisposal. They had conquered death and matter. The war continued only \nbecause it was a minor annoyance to them (at least), or it served their \npurpose in some way.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T13:23:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) cynocephalus", "in_reply_to": "<691182134-1281328240-cardhu_decombobulator_blackberry.rim.net-1814871011-@bda615.bisx.prod.on.blackberry>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 12:30 AM, wrote:\nHas anyone suggested that the ape like figures and Inire in particular are\nInhumi and that's how they got on the Whorl before it orbited Blue and\nGreen?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought it had been suggested and officially debunked by Wolfe\nhimself...but a quick google got me only this:\n\n Are the Cumaean and/or Merryn inhumi? Possibly, or definitely? No. The\nCumaean is an alien but not an inhuma. Merryn is a human being.\nhttp://www.sfsite.com/03b/gw124.htm\n\nSo the Cumaean, at least, is not an inhuma but Wolfe didn't rule out Inire\nbeing one in that quote. I still seem to recall seeing somewhere a more\ngeneral comment by Wolfe that the inhumi were not present on Urth during\nBook of the New Sun, but I can't find it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sent from my BlackBerry? smartphone with SprintSpeed\n\n-----Original Message-----\nFrom: Lee Berman \nSender: urth-bounces at lists.urth.net\nDate: Mon, 9 Aug 2010 00:21:24\nTo: " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T13:43:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "John Watkins- > I think you have this wrong. Very wrong, in fact. Briah is not the lower" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "universe that the Hierogrammates escaped from." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSo be it. We will have to disagree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not \"*must* be.\" \"*May* be.\" The Hierogrammates are seeking to\neffectuate this future, and Severian apparently helps them to do so. But it\nis not a necessary future, at least on Urth, as Master Ash confirms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI hope this is not an intentional misunderstanding of my words for the sake of\nargument. I say \"must\" because Master Ash winks out and Ushas and the Hierogrammates\nexist. If we saw the Hierogrammates wink out and a Ragnarok Urth in Severian's \ntime travels in UotNS, I'd say the reverse- averting Ushas was necessary for the creation \nof Ragnarok." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is also a trope of the \"good\" fallen angel--a higher being whose sin,\nas it were, is caring too much about the lowly humans it is charged with\noverseeing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nOh I agree! I recently discussed this issue with someone...sorry I forget who it was.\nTaking the example of Prometheus, the Olympians considered him evil. Humanity considered him\ngood. Take his cognate, Azazel/Tawsi Melek. Judeo-Christians consider him evil while the Yezidis\nconsider him good. Gabrus, the Celtic goat-god (cognate to Mercury) was a good guy for the\nWestern Europeans until the Christians from the east turned him into Satan.\n \nGood fights against evil all through history; though which is which is a matter of opinion.\nIn the end it doesn't matter. Good and evil pagan gods and beliefs- all will be swept away as a\nhigher level of spirituality washes in to take their place. I think that's the message of BotNS. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T14:11:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sham War", "in_reply_to": "<4C5FFFC8.9010508@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn- Seeing what North Korea has become, knowing what the Soviet \nUnion was like and what happened 25 years later under Mao, I'm not so \nsure _I_ feel this way and I have far less skin invested in that war \nthan Mr. Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYou miss my point. I would guess that, as a participant, Gene Wolfe would \ncare very deeply about who won the Korean and Cold Wars. The question is, \nwho did God want to win?\n\nSurely the Cold War stalemate and Korean division that dominated most of\nGene Wolfe's life would be disturbing to him. If ever there was a war God would\nplay favorites on it would be the war against the godless Communists. Yet\nthey were not vanquished (esp. circa BotNS writing). \n \nPerhaps this helped inspire him to create a story in which war has a higher \npurpose than the simple human illusion of good triumphing over evil.\n \nRegarding Hierogrammates, you say- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The war continued only because it was a minor annoyance to them (at least), or *it\nserved their purpose in some way*." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would agree, especially with the latter possibility. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "John Watkins", "address": "john.watkins04 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T14:31:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Aug 9, 2010 at 9:43 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nI hope this is not an intentional misunderstanding of my words for the sake\nof\nargument. I say \"must\" because Master Ash winks out and Ushas and the\nHierogrammates\nexist. If we saw the Hierogrammates wink out and a Ragnarok Urth in\nSeverian's\ntime travels in UotNS, I'd say the reverse- averting Ushas was necessary\nfor the creation\nof Ragnarok.\n\nNo. Rather, you misunderstand my point. The Hierogrammates exist because\nof a causal chain of events that has no connection to the manvantara we call\n\"Briah\"--there were engineered by the Hieros in a prior manvantara and\nescaped that manvantara prior to its Big Crunch by fleeing to Yesod. Yesod\nhas a different timeline than Briah altogether and moves in relationship to\nBriah's timestream in an exotic manner dictated by Yesodian technology. I\nrespect your \"agree to disagree\" language here, but this isn't a wild\nhypothesis--this is text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Hierogrammates are not attempting to cause their own creation by\nbringing a New Sun to Urth--they are attempting to engineer new Hieros. In\norder to do this they oversee humanity. Humanity is at the time of the Book\nof the New Sun dispersed through the cosmos--Apheta confirms that the\nHierogrammates and Hierarchs monitor myriad *galaxies*. So the success or\nfailure of the Hierogrammates' project does not depend on whether Urth in\nparticular becomes Ushas or Ragnarok. Urth is just one of many (very many)\npetri dishes cultivated by the Hierogrammates. Severian's quest, if it has\nany meaning at all, only succeeds in buying Urth a second lease on\nlife--convincing the Hierogrammates that this particular petri dish is\npromising enough to warrant an intervention to save the culture. It is in\nno way a foregone conclusion that Ushas will result in the birth of new\nHieros--the green man *may *be a Hiero or more likely an intermediate step\non the path to Hiero-hood, but he also *may *be something else entirely. It\nwas, however, a foregone conclusion that Ragnarok would foreclose the\npossibility of new Hieros being born on Urth. They could have still been\nborn in another petri dish world." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Good fights against evil all through history; though which is which is a\nmatter of opinion.\nIn the end it doesn't matter. Good and evil pagan gods and beliefs- all\nwill be swept away as a\nhigher level of spirituality washes in to take their place. I think that's\nthe message of BotNS." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I will only say that if that is the message of the Book of the New Sun\n(rather than the message of the Books of the Long and Short Suns), it's hard\nto see. What little we see of Ushas involves both pagan gods and beliefs\nand the survival of the undines." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-09T15:02:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: John Watkins \n\n There is also a trope of the \"good\" fallen angel--a higher being whose sin, as it were, is caring too much about the lowly humans it is charged with overseeing. Captain Kirk's willy-nilly disregard of Prime Directive comes to mind, as does the Doctor and Uatu the Watcher (oh, and Zauriel...and arguably the Green Lantern...the Silver Surfer...I could go on, although I'm hesistant in ascribing comic book inspiration to Wolfe unless there's a specific connection to look to.)\n\nWolfe is not above considerations of 'pulp' sensibilities, which are perhaps similar to those of comic books, Star Trek, etc. See 'The Last Thrilling Wonder Story', for example.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n." } ] }, { "message_id": "<784171.93141.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-09T16:26:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is how I see Inire. He's \"gone native,\" but that doesn't mean Avatar-style or even Colonel Kurtz. He's more like the English officers who lived among Indians and had multiple wives or at least multiple bastards. (Not to suggest anything specifically about his sexual proclivities, but there it is.)\n\nIf anything, if the Cumaean and Inire should have beautiful forms but do not, this suggests a kind of fall or at least abandonment of something, if not exactly \"wings,\" in favor of living among the mortals. But this scheme doesn't work itself out so easily either.\n\n--- On Mon, 8/9/10, John Watkins wrote:\nThere is also a trope of the \"good\" fallen angel--a higher being whose\nsin, as it were, is caring too much about the lowly humans it is\ncharged with overseeing. Captain Kirk's willy-nilly disregard of Prime\nDirective comes to mind, as does the?Doctor and?Uatu the Watcher (oh,\nand Zauriel...and arguably the Green Lantern...the Silver Surfer...I\ncould go on, although I'm hesistant in ascribing comic book inspiration\nto Wolfe unless there's a specific connection to look to.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C602C39.5050108@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T16:26:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) cynocephalus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought it had been suggested and officially debunked by Wolfe \nhimself...but a quick google got me only this:\nAre the Cumaean and/or Merryn inhumi? Possibly, or definitely?\n No. The Cumaean is an alien but not an inhuma. Merryn is a human\n being. \nhttp://www.sfsite.com/03b/gw124.htm" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Was anyone else stunned that Merryn was human?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " So the Cumaean, at least, is not an inhuma but Wolfe didn't rule out \nInire being one in that quote. I still seem to recall seeing \nsomewhere a more general comment by Wolfe that the inhumi were not \npresent on Urth during Book of the New Sun, but I can't find it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I believe that what he said was that Quetzal was \"an recent arrival\" \nwhich does not rule out the possibility that other inhumi were on Urth. \nActually, I find it appealing that the neighbors had a hand in the sale \nof the Whorl plan to Typhon because I infer deliberate parallels in the \nstory to the tale of how Midas got his golden touch from Dionysus. \nhttp://www.urth.org/whorlmap/midas.htm\n\nHowever, while it can be said that Quetzal/Silk is highly analogous to \nFr Inire/Severian, I'm not convinced that he IS Fr Inire. Actually, I \nsuspect there is _a lot_ more overlap than just Mentor/Student, but I \ncan't prove it because I don't believe we know anything important about \nInire.\n\nInire is one of those characters that \"shows up\" so-to-speak in Wolfe \nstories--an important character that either makes no actual appearance \nor only brief cameo appearances. Or an important character that suddenly \ndisappears from the active narrative although he is supposedly quite \nactive in it. His absence is disturbingly fishy. You look for him \neverywhere because he _needs_ to be there.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<008b01cb37eb$03d62840$68cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-08-09T17:47:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C5FC010.3040103@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nCome on. That exchange took place in Apu-Punchau's tomb *after* Severian\nhad\nbrought the new sun and Ushas was an established fact. The game was\nover;\nthere was no longer any point in deceptions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Was there a point in resurrecting him in the first place?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apparently so, because Sev was warned not to destroy the revived corpse. Sev\nthought that the revived-corpse version of Apu that he left behind is the\nApu who came to the seance in the stone town and got zapped. (URTH, LI, 363)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C604BBE.80504@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T18:41:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) cynocephalus", "in_reply_to": "<4C602C39.5050108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/9/2010 11:26 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nHowever, while it can be said that Quetzal/Silk is highly analogous to \nFr Inire/Severian, I'm not convinced that he IS Fr Inire. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What I meant to say was that I am not convinced that Fr Inire is an \ninhume or neighbor.\n\nOne reason is that the inhumi seem totally consumed with reproduction \nand passing as human. Quetzal, for example gets into Whorl politics on \nbecause he wants to establish a human colony on Green. That they would \npartake in some grand scheme for rejuvenating Urth seems beyond their ken.\n\nSame with the Neighbors. Their interest (whatever it is) seems totally \ndirected with Blue, not Urth.\n\nAnd, no, I don't think Blue is Ushas either. When the subject was \nbrought up, Wolfe --being ironic-- said \"No! no! Urth is Green!\". We can \ndebate about what he meant by that, but he surely did not mean that Blue \nwas in fact Ushas.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C608181.3060902@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T22:30:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "<008b01cb37eb$03d62840$68cf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/9/2010 12:47 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Come on. That exchange took place in Apu-Punchau's tomb *after* Severian\nhad\nbrought the new sun and Ushas was an established fact. The game was\nover;\nthere was no longer any point in deceptions." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Was there a point in resurrecting him in the first place?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Apparently so, because Sev was warned not to destroy the revived corpse. Sev\nthought that the revived-corpse version of Apu that he left behind is the\nApu who came to the seance in the stone town and got zapped. (URTH, LI, 363)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mean, what is the point of resurrecting Sev as an eidolon so that he \ncould return to the future? There's no danger of the corpse going anywhere." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6085FA.1090801@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2010-08-09T22:49:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Sham War", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gene Wolfe seems well-acquainted with his religion, and therefore would \nhave no difficulty answering the question. He answers it himself in \nTBotLS. There are many events in life and history which would trouble a \nbeliever, and I doubt that he is unsophisticated enough to be overcome \nby them, although he may ruminate now and then on the question of God's \nPlan, or on theodicy. TBotNS is, looked at the right way, five volumes \non those topics.\n\nIn any case, it is quite clear that the hieros, hierogrammates and even \nTzadziel are not God, although they fill some of the roles God fills in \nour universe. The question \"who would Tzadziel want to win the Ascian \nwar?\" is not at all equivalent to \"who would God want to win the Korean \nWar?\"\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nYou miss my point. I would guess that, as a participant, Gene Wolfe would \ncare very deeply about who won the Korean and Cold Wars. The question is, \nwho did God want to win?\nSurely the Cold War stalemate and Korean division that dominated most of\nGene Wolfe's life would be disturbing to him. If ever there was a war God would\nplay favorites on it would be the war against the godless Communists. Yet\nthey were not vanquished (esp. circa BotNS writing). " } ] }, { "message_id": "<002801cb389c$993daa00$06ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-08-10T14:59:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Boatman as Inire", "in_reply_to": "<4C608181.3060902@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nApparently so, because Sev was warned not to destroy the revived corpse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "thought that the revived-corpse version of Apu that he left behind is\nthe\nApu who came to the seance in the stone town and got zapped. (URTH, LI,\n363)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I mean, what is the point of resurrecting Sev as an eidolon so that he\ncould return to the future? There's no danger of the corpse going\nanywhere." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oh. He had to go back to the future to write his second manuscript. \nThat, and he had other trips to make in time, such as being in the crowd who\ncame to Sev's aid when he was attacked by Zama at the inn, and to mess with\nthe mausoleum, and whatnot. And the corpse had to go to the seance and leave\nthat cape behind.\n\n-Roy" } ] } ] }