{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5699", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5699, "subject": "Brook Madregot runs between", "messages": 38, "voices": 13, "first": "2010-08-11T03:48:43+00:00", "last": "2010-08-12T17:06:53+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T03:48:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, this has been an even more surreal discussion than normal here. I think\nthere may be something of an old guard, keepers of the flames of truth from the earlier\nyears of this forum to be protected from whippersnappers. But the strong association with \ncertain theories and fierce loyalty has me questioning if I even know the meaning of \nsimple words in English or perhaps I am going insane. Roy C. Lackey I must single you\nout as a prime culprit, ;- ) while still recognizing the undisputed depth and breadth of\nyour knowledge of Gene Wolfe's writing.\n \nWhen Roy takes the phrase \"*Yesod, the universe higher than our own*\" to unequivocally\nmean it is a separated entity, I just don't understand. To me \"higher\" implies connection;\na comparison of two points on the same scale, ladder, spectrum, whatever. Perhaps the \nseparation part it is a social class issue and I am too plebian to get it ;- ).\n \nI had a similar fear that I was going illiterate when Roy attempted to prove the same point \nwith: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Brook Madregot runs *between* the universes Briah and Yesod (285), so of course \nthey are apart." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAnother WTF moment for me. But giving it some thought I realized he was thinking of the word\n\"between\" differently than I was. For him it is a separation word like \"The Danube flowed \nbetween the towns of Buda and Pest\". For me, in this context, it is a connection word like, \n\"Interstate 5 runs between Seattle and San Diego\".\n\nI can see that if one has always assumed Yesod to be separate and distinct from the sequence\nof universes, each statement in the text becomes twisted to mean that very thing. Likewise for \nme and perhaps others who have always assumed that Yesod was connected in a sequence to Briah.\n \nI think that this particular textual passage (below) seems to argue for sequential connection not \nseparation. But perhaps others will disagree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian- \"But this place is Briah, or part of it. It's a passage in your ship, the one you showed\nme when you led me to my stateroom\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tinkerbell Tzadkiel- \"If that is so, you were near Yesod when you were with me on our ship. This is\nthe Brook Madregot, and it runs from Yesod to Briah\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian- \"Between the universes? How could that be?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tinkerbell Tzadkiel- \"How could it not be? Energy gropes for some lower state, always...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian- \"But it's a stream, like the streams of Urth\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tinkerbell Tzadkiel nods- \"Those too are of energy seeking a lower state....\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nI'm not sure if I understand Roy and Tony and Jeff and others' view correctly- is Yesod to be \nviewed as a lonely orphan universe sticking off to the side of Briah? Or does it go through its own \nBangs and Gnabs? Either way seems messy but I am open to the possibily that this might be the intended\ninterpretation. \n \nI think the text also allows for my view that Briah is destroyed, giving rise to Yesod. I find it \nsimpler and more elegant. Yesod is higher than Briah, both in energy and spirituality. Like Dan'l I am \npleased that this view allows Yesod to be our own universe and suggests a reason why our Earth is \nspiritually more advanced than Urth (Jesus).\n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<21AC40FB-C228-4935-8C9A-F27FC9960542@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T04:13:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 10, 2010, at 11:48 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI'm not sure if I understand Roy and Tony and Jeff and others' view correctly- is Yesod to be \nviewed as a lonely orphan universe sticking off to the side of Briah? Or does it go through its own \nBangs and Gnabs? Either way seems messy but I am open to the possibily that this might be the intended\ninterpretation. \n\nI think the text also allows for my view that Briah is destroyed, giving rise to Yesod. I find it \nsimpler and more elegant. Yesod is higher than Briah, both in energy and spirituality. Like Dan'l I am \npleased that this view allows Yesod to be our own universe and suggests a reason why our Earth is \nspiritually more advanced than Urth (Jesus)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something like this, Lee?\n\nhttp://img1.artweb.com/users/7588/218163_multiverse-28.jpg\n\nPardon the New Age diagram, but Multiverse has several visual interpretations. This was just one of them.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<691668.63804.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T05:09:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Lee Berman \n\n..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Roy takes the phrase \"*Yesod, the universe higher than our own*\" to \nunequivocally\nmean it is a separated entity, I just don't understand. To me \"higher\" implies \nconnection;\na comparison of two points on the same scale, ladder, spectrum, whatever. \nPerhaps the \n\nseparation part it is a social class issue and I am too plebian to get it ;- \n)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I had a similar fear that I was going illiterate when Roy attempted to prove \nthe same point \n\nwith: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Brook Madregot runs *between* the universes Briah and Yesod (285), so of \ncourse \n\nthey are apart." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another WTF moment for me. But giving it some thought I realized he was \nthinking of the word\n\"between\" differently than I was. For him it is a separation word like \"The \nDanube flowed \n\nbetween the towns of Buda and Pest\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to speak for Roy, but I'd be very surprised if that's what he was thinking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, in this context, it is a connection word like, \n\"Interstate 5 runs between Seattle and San Diego\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can see that if one has always assumed Yesod to be separate and distinct from \nthe sequence\nof universes, each statement in the text becomes twisted to mean that very \nthing. Likewise for \n\nme and perhaps others who have always assumed that Yesod was connected in a \nsequence to Briah." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that this particular textual passage (below) seems to argue for \nsequential connection not \n\nseparation. But perhaps others will disagree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I will. I think there are different dimensions of possible connection here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian- \"But this place is Briah, or part of it. It's a passage in your ship, \nthe one you showed\nme when you led me to my stateroom\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tinkerbell Tzadkiel- \"If that is so, you were near Yesod when you were with me \non our ship. This is\nthe Brook Madregot, and it runs from Yesod to Briah\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian- \"Between the universes? How could that be?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tinkerbell Tzadkiel- \"How could it not be? Energy gropes for some lower state, \nalways...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian- \"But it's a stream, like the streams of Urth\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tinkerbell Tzadkiel nods- \"Those too are of energy seeking a lower state....\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure if I understand Roy and Tony and Jeff and others' view correctly- \nis Yesod to be \n\nviewed as a lonely orphan universe sticking off to the side of Briah?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not off to the side--above." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or does it go through its own \nBangs and Gnabs? Either way seems messy but I am open to the possibily that \nthis might be the intended\ninterpretation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My view is that it's like a shotgun house. On the first floor are rooms in a \nlinear sequence (universes including Briah and our universe in a time sequence, \nor maybe ours is called Briah too). The roof is flat and has a railing and some \nlawn chairs so you can go up there when the house is too hot or you want to \nstargaze. (The habitable space on the roof is Yesod, the universe above \nBriah.) You can get from the roof to the lower story at various places in the \nsequence of rooms (various times). When it rains, water leaks down from the \nroof into the rooms. (I don't need to say what that corresponds to.)\n\nWhether Yesod has its own Bangs and Gnabs I can't say. Maybe it's more like an \nupper story with rooms that match the lower one. I also can't say what's above \nYesod, if anything. And of course there are more dimensions to allow for all \nthose different timelines." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think the text also allows for my view that Briah is destroyed, giving rise \nto Yesod. I find it \n\nsimpler and more elegant. Yesod is higher than Briah, both in energy and \nspirituality. Like Dan'l I am \n\npleased that this view allows Yesod to be our own universe and suggests a \nreason why our Earth is \n\nspiritually more advanced than Urth (Jesus)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find it very hard to see how Severian, in Yesod, could be at a time before the \npeople he knew were born, if Yesod is later in time than Briah. As people have \npointed out.\n\nEarth is very much like Urth. Few of us would have thought Urth was a \nsubsequent universe rather than our future if Wolfe hadn't said so outside the \nbook. Yesod seems like a totally different place, far more different that the \nexistence of Jesus could explain, from what I can see at Google Books and \nAmazon. But I can't prove anything from what I can see.\n\nJerry Friedman\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<008601cb3914$22d4ed60$f9d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-08-11T05:14:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can see that if one has always assumed Yesod to be separate and distinct\nfrom the sequence\nof universes, each statement in the text becomes twisted to mean that very\nthing. Likewise for\nme and perhaps others who have always assumed that Yesod was connected in\na sequence to Briah.\n\nI think that this particular textual passage (below) seems to argue for\nsequential connection not\nseparation. But perhaps others will disagree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I disagree." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian- \"But this place is Briah, or part of it. It's a passage in your\nship, the one you showed\nme when you led me to my stateroom\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tinkerbell Tzadkiel- \"If that is so, you were near Yesod when you were\nwith me on our ship. This is\nthe Brook Madregot, and it runs from Yesod to Briah\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian- \"Between the universes? How could that be?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tinkerbell Tzadkiel- \"How could it not be? Energy gropes for some lower\nstate, always...\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Severian- \"But it's a stream, like the streams of Urth\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Tinkerbell Tzadkiel nods- \"Those too are of energy seeking a lower\nstate....\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "She is speaking of entropy, as Apheta had earlier when she acknowledged that\nit was something that even the Hierogrammates had to deal with. Because\nenergy always seeks a lower state, the Brook reflects that, as she indicates\non the next page:\n------------------------------\n\"I can tell you this: Madregot flows from the glory of Yesod\"--she pointed\nupstream--\"to the destruction of Briah, down that way.\" She pointed again.\n(286)\n------------------------------\nIn other words, the Brook flows *from* Yesod *to* Briah, from the higher\nplane to the lower, just as Malrubius had told Severian ten years earlier.\nPut still another way, Yesod and Briah are not on the same plane. Neither do\nthey follow one another in a series. In the cosmology Wolfe uses in the Urth\nCycle, Yesod is on a separate plane that is somehow \"higher than our own\",\n\"our own\" in context meaning Briah.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6255BC.6000405@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T07:48:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/10/2010 10:48 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nI'm not sure if I understand Roy and Tony and Jeff and others' view correctly- is Yesod to be\nviewed as a lonely orphan universe sticking off to the side of Briah?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yesod is above the cycles of Briah the way the Corridors of Time are \nabove the roads of the Commonwealth. Expansion/inflation of space makes \nBriah it's own neighbor in finite but unbounded space; the successive \ncycles are neighbors in time, though separated by the unassailable \nfences of creation and destruction of all matter. Yesod and Abaddon are \nneighbors in yet another dimension, possibly the same as the Corridors \nof Time, but of a distance of much greater magnitude, requiring the \nexalted power of Tzadkiel to allow safe travel between them within a \nhuman lifetime." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or does it go through its own\nBangs and Gnabs? Either way seems messy but I am open to the possibily that this might be the intended\ninterpretation." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The use of \"manvantara\" brings in the concept of Hindu myth's nested \ncycles, so possibly Yesod does have its own bang-gnab cycle, but one \nvery different from ours/Briah's. Yesod the universe is said to contain \nmany consturcted worlds, but Severian visits one machine-planet that \nseems to be embedded in a small universe with a simulated sun and stars \nfor cosmetic reasons. (There are no tides, so the sun of Yeasod is not \nanything like a star or even a moon.) The machine-planet itself has \nvarious levels inside of it, so perhaps they count as various \nconstructed worlds.\n\nThe simulated day in Yesod is very short compared to the subjective \nlength of URth's day. This may also mean that the Yesod cycle stretches \nover many Briah cycles, even if the billion-trillion years per cycle in \nBriah seem like a few decades to the Hierodules. It also may be that \nthis is arbitrary, based on actions the Yesodis take rather than Yesod \nhaving a fixed flow of time like Briah." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C628F7D.2040105@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-11T11:54:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<21AC40FB-C228-4935-8C9A-F27FC9960542@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whatever the case, Briah can't be inside Yesod. That would turn Apheta's \nremark about traveling backwards into nonsense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Aug 10, 2010, at 11:48 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm not sure if I understand Roy and Tony and Jeff and others' view correctly- is Yesod to be \nviewed as a lonely orphan universe sticking off to the side of Briah? Or does it go through its own \nBangs and Gnabs? Either way seems messy but I am open to the possibily that this might be the intended\ninterpretation. \n\nI think the text also allows for my view that Briah is destroyed, giving rise to Yesod. I find it \nsimpler and more elegant. Yesod is higher than Briah, both in energy and spirituality. Like Dan'l I am \npleased that this view allows Yesod to be our own universe and suggests a reason why our Earth is \nspiritually more advanced than Urth (Jesus).\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Something like this, Lee?\n\nhttp://img1.artweb.com/users/7588/218163_multiverse-28.jpg\n\nPardon the New Age diagram, but Multiverse has several visual interpretations. This was just one of them.\n\n...ryan\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-11T12:45:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<691668.63804.qm@web50704.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jerry Friedman\" \nI find it very hard to see how Severian, in Yesod, could be at a time \nbefore the\npeople he knew were born, if Yesod is later in time than Briah. As people \nhave\npointed out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don;t think time is necessarily commensurable across universes. That is, \nI think the question of whether an event in Yesod preceeds or succeeds an \nevent in Briah has no meaningful answer. (For the history of an individual \npassing between them it may have an answer, but the answer could be \ndifferent for other individuals.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Earth is very much like Urth. Few of us would have thought Urth was a\nsubsequent universe rather than our future if Wolfe hadn't said so outside \nthe\nbook. Yesod seems like a totally different place, far more different that \nthe\nexistence of Jesus could explain, from what I can see at Google Books and\nAmazon. But I can't prove anything from what I can see." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. I see no real reason to think of Urth as anything other than our \nfuture. Note that in the _Book of the Long Sun_ Silk sees a vision of Jesus \non Palm Sunday, the name Allah also appears, as does a distorted version of \nthe Adam and Eve story. Not to mention the Apollo landing images etc. Sure, \nthose informationss *could* come from different universes, but I see no \nstrong reason to think so.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T12:53:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey: \"I can tell you this: Madregot flows from the glory of Yesod\"--she pointed\nupstream--\"to the destruction of Briah, down that way.\" She pointed again.\n(286)\n------------------------------\nIn other words, the Brook flows *from* Yesod *to* Briah, from the higher\nplane to the lower, just as Malrubius had told Severian ten years earlier.\nPut still another way, Yesod and Briah are not on the same plane. Neither do\nthey follow one another in a series." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nOnce again Roy, I am flummoxed by your post. To my way of thinking your citations \napppear to undercut your own assertions and support mine.\n \nIf Brook Madregot flows \"downhill\" from the glory of Yesod to the destruction of\nBriah it says to me that it serves as a connector between the creation of Yesod \nand the Grand Gnab or destruction of Briah. Put in another way, these two universes\nare in line with each other allowing a stream to flow from one to the other.\n \nA stream can flow between a higher town on Pike's Peak to a lower town. But it can't\nflow to a town on a separate mountain.\n \nMoreover, if Brook Madregot connected two otherwise unconnected universes, we would \nexpect it to traverse the space between then stop. But it doesn't work that way.\nSeverian uses Brook Madregot to move up and down the timestream of Urth. This suggests\nthat the timestream of Urth is connected in a line all the way to Yesod.\n \nSeverian has limited power to travel up and down Brook Madregot. So if Severian had enough \npower he could travel upstream all the way to Yesod or downstream all the way to the \nbeginning of Urth, beginning of Briah (big bang) and beyond (Abaddon).\n \nIs there a place in the text which suggests Brook Madregot is not a single straght line?\nA suggestion that there is a branching or sidetrack to Yesod which would support your\nidea of separation? I can't remember. But I think this is required. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C62AA0C.8090104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T13:47:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 8/10/2010 10:48 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nWell, this has been an even more surreal discussion than normal here. I think\nthere may be something of an old guard, keepers of the flames of truth from the earlier\nyears of this forum to be protected from whippersnappers. But the strong association with\ncertain theories and fierce loyalty has me questioning if I even know the meaning of\nsimple words in English or perhaps I am going insane. Roy C. Lackey I must single you\nout as a prime culprit, ;- ) while still recognizing the undisputed depth and breadth of\nyour knowledge of Gene Wolfe's writing. When Roy takes the phrase \"*Yesod, the universe higher than our own*\"...[snip]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee,\n\nThe problem is much bigger than this single phrase. As I detailed, that \nentire passage makes the construct that Yesod is in our chain of \nuniverses untenable, however much I am viscerally inclined to that model.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T14:33:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<4C62AA0C.8090104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: \"*Yesod, the universe higher than our own*\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee,The problem is much bigger than this single phrase. As I detailed, that \nentire passage makes the construct that Yesod is in our chain of \nuniverses untenable, however much I am viscerally inclined to that model." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJames, I went back and re-read your post and again I couldn't find anything\nthat makes Yesod as successor to Briah as untenable. Perhaps you can explain?\n \nFor, example the bit about vantage point, looking both forward and back. I don't \nsee the need for leapfrogging universes. \n \nAs I see it the Hiero race created Hierogrammates but perished in the destruction of\nBriah. Hierogrammates were able to escape to the next universe, Yesod.\n \nThey are parked at the beginning of Yesod. Hence Severian doesn't have to travel\nfar to reach the Yesod planet. With this \"machine planet\" Hierogrammates are in the \nprocess of constructing the future planets of Yesod, including, eventually, Earth (not Urth).\n \nThus from this early Yesod vantage point they are able both to work forward to construct the \nfuture of Yesod and send agents back to Briah to ensure their own creation.\n\nDoes this work? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<581119.54841.qm@web37608.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T14:55:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'll add something to the discussion, noting from the beginning that I don't \nhave a personal stake in the argument, although I probably agree with how Roy is \nreading the textual passages in question.\n\nMy difficulty with the Yesod-as-later-Briah theory is thematic. What happens in \nthe Briah universe is largely cyclical. Similar stories get played out over and \nover. The entire idea of a \"New Sun\" is about Urth/Earth's renewal, it seems, \nrather than complete transformation and evolution. Or, at the very least, when \nthe New Sun arrives, Urth is transformed rather than overcome or left behind.\n\nYesod seems \"higher\" than Briah in a number of senses, but primarily \nspiritually. It's not exactly heaven, but it is a place where judgment gets \npassed on the \"lower\" realm. It might be a higher dimension (however we \nunderstand that word), but it doesn't seem to me like the kind of thing or place \nthat is ever a realistic goal for Urth-ers to achieve. (A Christian wants to \nbecome a better or saved Christian, for example, but it's not precisely a \nChristian's goal to become an angel, if that analogy makes sense.)\n\nIf Yesod is actually what Briah is supposed to become, then I don't really \nunderstand how all of Severian's struggles and adventures are supposed to lead \nto that goal. I completely understand how he's supposed to transform Briah/Urth \nand bring about its renewal, \"save\" it, etc. But if that's the case, then Briah \nis going to go through evolution on its own path, not turn itself into a higher \nspiritual mode of existence. In other words, if Yesod is what Briah is supposed \nto become, then doesn't that make the entire drama of simply bringing a New Sun \nwithin the Briah-universe something pretty trivial?\n\nIt always seemed to me that Yesod/Briah were on levels in \nsimilar-but-not-identical ways that the levels worked in TWK: Briah is like the \nhuman level. Yesod is like the Asgard level. Asgard is \"better\" than where Able \nspends most of his time. And Able can work to make humans better people. But the \npoint is never really to turn all humans into angels or all elves into humans or \nwhat-not. The levels are each valued differently, but that doesn't mean that the \nlower ones are supposed to become the higher ones, even if they can learn from \nwhat happens in the higher ones. Individuals, like Able, may well be able to \nmove through and \"evolve\" through the different levels, as similar in the way \nthat Severian learns quite a bit from his experience in Yesod, but there are \nstill meaningful horizontal stories even if the ultimate metaphysical story is \nvertical.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C62BCFD.5090208@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T15:08:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I said:\nLee,The problem is much bigger than this single phrase. As I detailed, that\nentire passage makes the construct that Yesod is in our chain of\nuniverses untenable, however much I am viscerally inclined to that model.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee replied:\nJames, I went back and re-read your post and again I couldn't find anything\nthat makes Yesod as successor to Briah as untenable. Perhaps you can explain?\n\nFor, example the bit about vantage point, looking both forward and back. I don't\nsee the need for leapfrogging universes. As I see it the Hiero race created Hierogrammates but perished in the destruction of Briah. Hierogrammates were able to escape to the next universe, Yesod. They are parked at the beginning of Yesod. Hence Severian doesn't have to travel far to reach the Yesod planet. With this \"machine planet\" Hierogrammates are in the process of constructing the future planets of Yesod, including, eventually, Earth (not Urth).\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Lee, there's no reason for the Hierogrammates to get involved in \nBriah if they came from there. The event that led to the creation of \ntheir race has positively occurred there without their help. Let me \nrepost the passages again:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"I was not told what became of the Humanity of that cycle. Perhaps it \nsurvived until\nthe implosion of the universe, then perished with it. Perhaps it \nevolved beyond our\nrecognition. But the beings Humanity had shaped into what men and \nwomen wished to\nbe escaped, opening a passage to Yesod, the universe higher than our \nown, where they\ncreated worlds suited to what they had become. From that vantage point\n*they look both forward and back*, and in so looking they have \ndiscovered us.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is simply no reason at all for the Hierogrammates to \"look back\" \nto Briah if they were created there. And they would hardly have to \nsearch hard to find Severian. And by your model. there's no reason \nbelieve it is especially easy for them to look forward at all. But by \nyour model, they aren't looking forward. Only back." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thus from this early Yesod vantage point they are able both to work forward to construct the future of Yesod and send agents back to Briah to ensure their own creation. Does this work?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. Let me explain. Before the passage quoted above, Severian says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"The hammer they wield is their ability to draw their servants back, \ndown the corridors\nof time, and to send them hurtling forward to the future. *(This \npower is in essence the\nsame as that which permitted them to evade the death of their \nuniverse--to enter the\ncorridors of time is to leave the universe.)*\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If the power to move into the Corridors of Time is the same as escaping \na universe, one would have to conclude --by your model-- that those \nweird corridors are just a mundane location in early Yesod. But then why \nshould not everyone in Briah be able to easily move through Time in \nYesod and Abbadon as well? Additionally, Yesod would be useless for \ntraveling in Time within Yesod.\n\nSo this is why I say that Yesod being a meta-universe beyond Briah and \nAbbadon and the next universe is the only tenable model.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C62C232.5050804@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T15:30:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/11/2010 7:53 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIs there a place in the text which suggests Brook Madregot is not a single straght line?\nA suggestion that there is a branching or sidetrack to Yesod which would support your\nidea of separation? I can't remember. But I think this is required. \t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee,\n\nDoes this explanation posit a meta-universe called, say, \"Madregot\"?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<681810.3189.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T15:35:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spam question", "in_reply_to": "<4C62C232.5050804@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has anyone else suddenly had the majority of Urth posts end up in spam \nmailboxes? I haven't changed my settings at all, and I'm trying to figure out \nwhat might be happening.\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Fred Kiesche", "address": "godelescherbach at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T15:37:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spam question", "in_reply_to": "<681810.3189.qm@web37606.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me--no. But maybe due to the volume?\n\nBut it could be Yahoo. I've had the opposite happen in my Yahoo A/C. The\npast two days the stuff that is very obviously spam is ending up in my\ninbox." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nHas anyone else suddenly had the majority of Urth posts end up in spam\nmailboxes? I haven't changed my settings at all, and I'm trying to figure\nout\nwhat might be happening.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lane Haygood", "address": "lhaygood at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T15:58:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spam question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Oddly enough, the only ones that I ever caught in my spam filter were\nJosh's. I told gmail to knock it off, and it did.\n\nBut the rest of them get through fine.\n\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Fred Kiesche\n wrote:\nMe--no. But maybe due to the volume?\n\nBut it could be Yahoo. I've had the opposite happen in my Yahoo A/C. The\npast two days the stuff that is very obviously spam is ending up in my\ninbox.\n\nOn Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Has anyone else suddenly had the majority of Urth posts end up in spam\nmailboxes? I haven't changed my settings at all, and I'm trying to figure\nout\nwhat might be happening.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<554988.98520.qm@web37604.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T16:14:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spam question", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the info. It's just me (or just yahoo). I added a filter just to move \nanything with \"urth\" to the Inbox...simple fix if anyone else has the same \nproblem since yahoo doesn't seem to allow a lot of user modification of what \ncounts as spam.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Lane Haygood \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Wed, August 11, 2010 10:58:19 AM\nSubject: Re: (urth) Spam question\n\nOddly enough, the only ones that I ever caught in my spam filter were\nJosh's. I told gmail to knock it off, and it did.\n\nBut the rest of them get through fine.\n\nLH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:37 AM, Fred Kiesche\n wrote:\nMe--no. But maybe due to the volume?\n\nBut it could be Yahoo. I've had the opposite happen in my Yahoo A/C. The\npast two days the stuff that is very obviously spam is ending up in my\ninbox.\n\nOn Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 11:35 AM, Craig Brewer wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Has anyone else suddenly had the majority of Urth posts end up in spam\nmailboxes? I haven't changed my settings at all, and I'm trying to figure\nout\nwhat might be happening.\n\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "--\nF.P. Kiesche III \"Ah Mr. Gibbon, another damned, fat, square book. Always,\nscribble, scribble, scribble, eh?\" (The Duke of Gloucester, on being\npresented with Volume 2 of The Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.)\nBlogging at The Lensman's Children\n(http://theeternalgoldenbraid.blogspot.com/).\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net\nSubscription/information: http://www.urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C62D9F5.7000200@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:12:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/11/2010 7:45 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI agree. I see no real reason to think of Urth as anything other than\nour future. Note that in the _Book of the Long Sun_ Silk sees a vision\nof Jesus on Palm Sunday, the name Allah also appears, as does a\ndistorted version of the Adam and Eve story. Not to mention the Apollo\nlanding images etc. Sure, those informationss *could* come from\ndifferent universes, but I see no strong reason to think so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These are good points, I think that's how the BOTNS was written \noriginally, but the flood would break the covenant with Noah, so URTH's \nrecord of the flood coming to pass necessitates that at least the fifth \nvolume comes from another cycle than our own." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:13:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<4C62D9F5.7000200@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James your previous post left me despairing that we could ever communicate \nour ideas clearly to each other. This part was especially confusing:\n \nJames Wynn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the power to move into the Corridors of Time is the same as escaping \na universe, one would have to conclude --by your model-- that those \nweird corridors are just a mundane location in early Yesod. But then why \nshould not everyone in Briah be able to easily move through Time in \nYesod and Abbadon as well? Additionally, Yesod would be useless for \ntraveling in Time within Yesod." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nBut your next post gave me hope." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Lee, Does this explanation posit a meta-universe called, say, \"Madregot\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes! It seems so clear to me that perhaps I didn't explain it well. To me, \nBrook Madregot is the \"meta-universe\"; the place outside the universes of Briah\nand Yesod which allows time travel between them and, with baby steps, time travel\nwithin Briah, as Severian does.\n \nI don't have my books with me now so I can't check if Brook Madregot is a straight\nline, implying sequence between Yesod and Briah, or has Kabbalic branchings and \ntributaries between static, co-existing universes.\n \nI have a vague memory of some branching mentioned, but maybe they referred to \nalternate, even erased timelines, like Master Ash's. I remember the timeline path \nthat Severian strides as being singular, without forks, branchings or other choices \nto make. I'll have to check the text when I get home. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:16:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<4C62D9F5.7000200@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nbut the flood would break the covenant with Noah," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only if you see the flood as being sent by God. If it's sent by a\nlesser being without God's prompting, that doesn't break the covenant\n-- God didn't promise to prevent creature-made floods." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C62DDA6.1040100@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:28:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/11/2010 7:53 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIs there a place in the text which suggests Brook Madregot is not a single straght line?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "URTH LI: \"All about me stretched the Corridors of Time, waving meadows \nroofed with the lowering sky of Time and whisperous with the brooks that \nripple from the most supernal universe of all to the least.\nBright-winged, the small Tzadkiel fluttered beside one. The green man \nraced beside another. I chose one that ran as lonely as I, and mounted \nto it. Behind me along a line that seldom exists, Apu-Punchau, the Head \nof Day, stepped from his house and squatted to eat the boiled maize and \nroast meat his people had left for him. I too hungered; I waved to him, \nthen saw him no more.\n\nThe Brook is one of many that are part of the Corridors of Time. \nMultiple corridors can't be a single straight line, brooks even less so." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C62E29B.2000906@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:49:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/11/2010 12:16 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "but the flood would break the covenant with Noah," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Only if you see the flood as being sent by God. If it's sent by a\nlesser being without God's prompting, that doesn't break the covenant\n-- God didn't promise to prevent creature-made floods." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All creatures serve the plan of the Increate, and Severian as the New \nSun does so consciously and intentionally, using supernatural gifts that \nflow from the Increate. The responsibility for the drowning of Urth can \nnot be put on any mortal being any more than the plagues of Egypt or the \ntrials of Job." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:50:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<4C62E29B.2000906@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:49 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 8/11/2010 12:16 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 10:12 AM, Jeff Wilson ?wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "but the flood would break the covenant with Noah," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Only if you see the flood as being sent by God. If it's sent by a\nlesser being without God's prompting, that doesn't break the covenant\n-- God didn't promise to prevent creature-made floods." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All creatures serve the plan of the Increate, and Severian as the New Sun\ndoes so consciously and intentionally, using supernatural gifts that flow\nfrom the Increate. The responsibility for the drowning of Urth can not be\nput on any mortal being any more than the plagues of Egypt or the trials of\nJob." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was thinking more of putting the responsibility upon the Hierofoos." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C62E3E2.8070202@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:54:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<4C62D9F5.7000200@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/11/2010 12:12 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nThese are good points, I think that's how the BOTNS was written \noriginally, but the flood would break the covenant with Noah, so \nURTH's record of the flood coming to pass necessitates that at least \nthe fifth volume comes from another cycle than our own. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think Wolfe was considering the Noahtic covenant when he wrote \nabout the flood. Does he mention it in the Sun cycle at all? The Noahtic \ncovenant could hardly be as problematic as the Church devolving into \nworship of the Concilliator or the Charter. Essentially, the stories \nwork fine as one from our distant future, and we shouldn't try to apply \ntheologic import to their basic Setting.\n\nBut if one must, the references to Jesus do not prevent Briah from being \na previous universe. Silk sees Jesus during enlightenment from the \nOutsider. The Crucifixion & Resurrection could well be seen as a key \niconic event between the Increate and humanity--one which the Creator \nuses to \"infect\" all his other universes.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:55:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<4C62DDA6.1040100@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 8/11/2010 7:53 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Is there a place in the text which suggests Brook Madregot is not a \nsingle straght line?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "URTH LI: \"All about me stretched the Corridors of Time, waving meadows \nroofed with the lowering sky of Time and whisperous with the brooks that \nripple from the most supernal universe of all to the least.\nBright-winged, the small Tzadkiel fluttered beside one. The green man \nraced beside another. I chose one that ran as lonely as I, and mounted to \nit. Behind me along a line that seldom exists, Apu-Punchau, the Head of \nDay, stepped from his house and squatted to eat the boiled maize and roast \nmeat his people had left for him. I too hungered; I waved to him, then saw \nhim no more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Marshes of Time, then. And are there cannibal Marshmen?\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<6D3B4DA325A14111928FF6CE8A2D7C6F@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-11T18:06:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<4C62E3E2.8070202@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nOn 8/11/2010 12:12 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "These are good points, I think that's how the BOTNS was written \noriginally, but the flood would break the covenant with Noah, so URTH's \nrecord of the flood coming to pass necessitates that at least the fifth \nvolume comes from another cycle than our own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think Wolfe was considering the Noahtic covenant when he wrote \nabout the flood. Does he mention it in the Sun cycle at all? The Noahtic \ncovenant could hardly be as problematic as the Church devolving into \nworship of the Concilliator or the Charter. Essentially, the stories work \nfine as one from our distant future, and we shouldn't try to apply \ntheologic import to their basic Setting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Agreed." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But if one must, the references to Jesus do not prevent Briah from being a \nprevious universe. Silk sees Jesus during enlightenment from the Outsider. \nThe Crucifixion & Resurrection could well be seen as a key iconic event \nbetween the Increate and humanity--one which the Creator uses to \"infect\" \nall his other universes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe that is so, but it would be very unconventional in SF: nearly all \nstories tackling this theme have suggested an independent Incarnation on \nevery planet.\n\nThen again, if one Incarnation on an un-webbed Earth was enough, there is \nnothing illogical about skipping out certain planets.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C62E887.104@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T18:14:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<4C62E3E2.8070202@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/11/2010 12:54 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 8/11/2010 12:12 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "These are good points, I think that's how the BOTNS was written\noriginally, but the flood would break the covenant with Noah, so\nURTH's record of the flood coming to pass necessitates that at least\nthe fifth volume comes from another cycle than our own." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think Wolfe was considering the Noahtic covenant when he wrote\nabout the flood. Does he mention it in the Sun cycle at all? The Noahtic\ncovenant could hardly be as problematic as the Church devolving into\nworship of the Concilliator or the Charter. Essentially, the stories\nwork fine as one from our distant future, and we shouldn't try to apply\ntheologic import to their basic Setting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That suits me, and I agree that he was not thinking sbout it at the \ntime. But since only a couple of years later the \"Urth is a previous \ncycle\" became his steady line, I think he belatedly thought of it and \nshifting to a previous cycle is extratextual retroactive continuity." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2EA390F6EE5148739F9C0DB4EC83B08F@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-11T18:25:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<4C62E887.104@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nThat suits me, and I agree that he was not thinking sbout it at the time. \nBut since only a couple of years later the \"Urth is a previous cycle\" \nbecame his steady line, I think he belatedly thought of it and shifting to \na previous cycle is extratextual retroactive continuity." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When you say \"steady line\" what exactly do you mean? He gave repeated \ninterviews stating it?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<610040.11755.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-08-12T01:25:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Gerry Quinn \nFrom: \"Jerry Friedman\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I find it very hard to see how Severian, in Yesod, could be at a time before \nthe\npeople he knew were born, if Yesod is later in time than Briah. As people \nhave\npointed out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don;t think time is necessarily commensurable across universes. That is, I \nthink the question of whether an\nevent in Yesod preceeds or succeeds an event in Briah has no meaningful \nanswer. (For the history of an\nindividual passing between them it may have an answer, but the answer could be \ndifferent for other\nindividuals.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So for Severian's history, it makes sense for Apheta to tell him the people he \nknew are unborn?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Earth is very much like Urth. Few of us would have thought Urth was a\nsubsequent universe rather than our future if Wolfe hadn't said so outside \nthe\nbook. Yesod seems like a totally different place, far more different that \nthe\nexistence of Jesus could explain, from what I can see at Google Books and\nAmazon. But I can't prove anything from what I can see." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I see no real reason to think of Urth as anything other than our future." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wait a second." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Note that in the _Book of the Long Sun_ Silk sees a vision of Jesus on Palm \nSunday, the name Allah also\nappears, as does a distorted version of the Adam and Eve story. Not to mention \nthe Apollo landing images\netc. Sure, those informationss *could* come from different universes, but I see \nno strong reason to think so." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not in the text, maybe, but Wolfe made at least one explicit statement in the \ninterview with James Jordan.\n\nAnd since people have been discussing the hut in the Botanic Gardens, that could \nprovide evidence that Urth isn't our future. In our time, \"isangoma\" and \n\"tokoloshe\" are words from southern Africa, where there are no jungles. Margays \nand uakaris are found in South America. Oreodonts lived in the grasslands and \nsavannas of North and Central America until a few million years ago. The \npassage about Mount Nebo is distinctly different from the Bible. What reason \ncould Wolfe have had for combining these disparate features except to tell us \nRobert and Marie didn't live in our world in the last century?\n\n(By the way, how did Severian understand them? And are \"isangoma\" and \n\"tokoloshe\" words in his language, or did he transcribe them phonetically? Did \nhe transcribe \"Paris\" phonetically, which means Robert and Marie were speaking \nEnglish, or did Wolfe put Paris in because Robert was talking about a city where \nyou study art? Usually we should probably ignore Wolfe the translator, but here \nI'm tempted to think about him.)\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6354A4.5050803@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-12T01:55:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<2EA390F6EE5148739F9C0DB4EC83B08F@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/11/2010 1:25 PM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That suits me, and I agree that he was not thinking sbout it at the\ntime. But since only a couple of years later the \"Urth is a previous\ncycle\" became his steady line, I think he belatedly thought of it and\nshifting to a previous cycle is extratextual retroactive continuity." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When you say \"steady line\" what exactly do you mean? He gave repeated\ninterviews stating it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "IIRC, yes, but it could be multiple reports of one or two occasions." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C63D994.9040208@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-12T11:23:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<610040.11755.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jerry Friedman wrote (12-08-2010 02:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(By the way, how did Severian understand them? And are \"isangoma\" and\n\"tokoloshe\" words in his language, or did he transcribe them phonetically? Did\nhe transcribe \"Paris\" phonetically, which means Robert and Marie were speaking\nEnglish, or did Wolfe put Paris in because Robert was talking about a city where\nyou study art? Usually we should probably ignore Wolfe the translator, but here\nI'm tempted to think about him.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That one is tricky. If the translator knew that whatever the original was, \nit was 'a city where you study art', then he knows much more about Urth than \nhe is telling us. Though we tend to ignore the translator and when we do \nnot, we only think of him as someone who knows just the language - but \nthat's hardly credible, isn't it? Is there any backstory for the translator?\n\nAs to Urth being Earth, I don0't think Wolfe ever intended it that way. I \nthink his idea was always that the BNS told what *might* happen in our \nuniverse, and it did do by telling what *did* happen in a very similar one. \nSimilar but not equal, as the name Urth instead of Earth implicates.\nAnd why that one universe? My guess is that here there aren't infinite \nuniverses just different in a detail or two. There is ours, and there is \nBriah, which is quite similar but not equal*, and all the rest are even more \ndifferent than Briah. I think Wolfe is telling us the story of the most \nsimilar parallel universe there is to our own. And our own will be the one \nto produce the Hieros. As long as we heed Wolfe's warnings. Which we will, \notherwise there would be no story to tell.\n\n(*) There may have been a Jesus on Urth, I find it very hard not to there \nhave been. All the rest is too similar, and an 'inferior' Jesus makes no \nreligious sense. But the Church, taken as the body of believers, failed \nthere. The religious organisations on Urth are not the historical successors \nof the original Church." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-12T11:25:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<610040.11755.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jerry Friedman\" \nFrom: Gerry Quinn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don;t think time is necessarily commensurable across universes. That \nis, I\nthink the question of whether an\nevent in Yesod preceeds or succeeds an event in Briah has no meaningful\nanswer. (For the history of an\nindividual passing between them it may have an answer, but the answer \ncould be\ndifferent for other\nindividuals.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So for Severian's history, it makes sense for Apheta to tell him the \npeople he\nknew are unborn?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Maybe she was being imprecise. They are not born as far as Yesod is \nconcerne, if time is indeterminate across universes. Or maybe in Yesod they \nthink of themselves as being at the same time as the beginning of Briah. I \ndon't know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I see no real reason to think of Urth as anything other than our future." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wait a second." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Note that in the _Book of the Long Sun_ Silk sees a vision of Jesus on \nPalm\nSunday, the name Allah also\nappears, as does a distorted version of the Adam and Eve story. Not to \nmention\nthe Apollo landing images\netc. Sure, those informationss *could* come from different universes, but \nI see\nno strong reason to think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not in the text, maybe, but Wolfe made at least one explicit statement in \nthe\ninterview with James Jordan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fair enough. But I think he indicated that this was intended as a \n*possible* reading: \"And decided that I would show that this might be a past \ncycle. He also says: \"I was toying with those ideas, I think, rather than \ntrying to make sense of them.\"\n\nI don't know: for me the reading of Urth as our future works well; and in \nany case I certainly don't feel like going *into depth* figuring out the \nconsequences of something the author did not intend to be fully worked out, \nsuch as the entropic relationships between Yesod and Briah, or what not!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And since people have been discussing the hut in the Botanic Gardens, that \ncould\nprovide evidence that Urth isn't our future. In our time, \"isangoma\" and\n\"tokoloshe\" are words from southern Africa, where there are no jungles. \nMargays\nand uakaris are found in South America. Oreodonts lived in the grasslands \nand\nsavannas of North and Central America until a few million years ago. The\npassage about Mount Nebo is distinctly different from the Bible. What \nreason\ncould Wolfe have had for combining these disparate features except to tell \nus\nRobert and Marie didn't live in our world in the last century?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could be." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(By the way, how did Severian understand them? And are \"isangoma\" and\n\"tokoloshe\" words in his language, or did he transcribe them phonetically? \nDid\nhe transcribe \"Paris\" phonetically, which means Robert and Marie were \nspeaking\nEnglish, or did Wolfe put Paris in because Robert was talking about a city \nwhere\nyou study art? Usually we should probably ignore Wolfe the translator, \nbut here\nI'm tempted to think about him.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good question. But translation, like FTL travel issues, is one of those \nthings that SF writers are allowed ignore if they want...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-12T12:14:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jerry Friedman- And since people have been discussing the hut in the Botanic Gardens, \nthat could provide evidence that Urth isn't our future. In our time, \"isangoma\" and \n\"tokoloshe\" are words from southern Africa, where there are no jungles. Margays \nand uakaris are found in South America. Oreodonts lived in the grasslands and \nsavannas of North and Central America until a few million years ago. The \npassage about Mount Nebo is distinctly different from the Bible. What reason \ncould Wolfe have had for combining these disparate features except to tell us \nRobert and Marie didn't live in our world in the last century?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nUakarki and margays could have climbed the ladder from the garden but oreodonts..\nnope. I agree that this and some other objections have called my theory of the\nJungle Hut as a Last House-type time travel portal to our Earth into question. \nMoreover, so does Borski's guess that the people in the hut are Scottish missionaries \nRobert and Mary Moffat, since they died before the airplane was invented (but where is \nthe burr in their speech?)\n \nThis mish mash of different geographic and time period species does reinforce the \nsense that The Botanic Garden is also a zoo. It suggests that the creator of the zoo \nconsiders human beings as a sort of animal, to be put on display.\n \nThis can't help but bring back to my mind the \"sexual penetrating\" meaning of the Latin\nword \"inire\" and the derived name of Inuus, epithet of Pan/Faunus, and his proclivity\nfor intercourse with animals. ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C640069.2010004@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-12T14:08:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (12-08-2010 13:14):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This can't help but bring back to my mind the \"sexual penetrating\"\nmeaning of the Latin word \"inire\" and the derived name of Inuus, epithet\nof Pan/Faunus, and his proclivity for intercourse with animals. ;- )" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(_Inire_ may have been (was) used in copulating context, but that wasn't its\nprimary meaning, not any more than it is the primary meaning of english \n'enter'.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-12T14:40:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<4C640069.2010004@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antonio P. Marques- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(_Inire_ may have been (was) used in copulating context, but that wasn't its\nprimary meaning, not any more than it is the primary meaning of english \n'enter'.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This article may be helpful in explaining what I am getting at:\n \nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuus\n \nConsidering the events in Long Sun, anything to do with the god Pan might be\nconsidered to have special significance. (might, I say) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C640B19.9050702@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-12T14:54:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (12-08-2010 15:40):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio P. Marques-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "(_Inire_ may have been (was) used in copulating context, but that wasn't its\nprimary meaning, not any more than it is the primary meaning of english\n'enter'.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This article may be helpful in explaining what I am getting at:\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inuus" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Inuus's name was there in your original remark.\n\nConsidering Wolfe's regard for linguistic rigor, I find an Inuus -> Inire \nsubstitution quite unelegant.\n\nLatin verbs were also not quoted in the infinitive, but the present S1, so \n_ineo_ is how one refers to the verb.\n\n_Inire_ may have been (was) used in copulating context, but that wasn't its \nprimary meaning, not any more than it is the primary meaning of english 'enter'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Considering the events in Long Sun, anything to do with the god Pan might be\nconsidered to have special significance. (might, I say) \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For all the identification of Pas with Pan, I don't see what the similarity \nbetween them is in the sexual regard. (Well, Typhon was naked when Severian \nmet him. But shrivelled, he says.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<18CF1EBF90914D098851F1ED01CB9017@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-12T16:30:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<4C640B19.9050702@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nFor all the identification of Pas with Pan, I don't see what the \nsimilarity between them is in the sexual regard. (Well, Typhon was naked \nwhen Severian met him. But shrivelled, he says.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I seem to recall that the exercise of power perked him up a bit.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-12T17:06:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Brook Madregot runs between", "in_reply_to": "<18CF1EBF90914D098851F1ED01CB9017@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Pedro Marques\" \nFor all the identification of Pas with Pan, I don't see what the \nsimilarity between them is in the sexual regard. (Well, Typhon was naked \nwhen Severian met him. But shrivelled, he says.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I seem to recall that the exercise of power perked him up a bit.\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Erm, yes. Typhon very strangely gets an erection and \"nurses\" it while talking to \nSeverian. He also says that when he re-establishes his multi-planet empire, he will \nbe sent tribute in the form of young men and women.\n \nIn Long Sun, the painting of Pas/Typhon depicts him \"nursing\" *two* erections, one for each\nhand, as he surveys his court, a writhing sexual orgy of worshippers with phallic symbolism\npopping up all over the place.\n " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": " \nPerhaps unrelated, but various reptile species are endowed with two penises. Greek\nmythological monster Typhon was a multi-headed mandragora on his top half and a snake down \nbelow.\n \nI have proposed, at times, that the name Pas is a nickname which could be derived from the \nBabylonian god of desert storms, Pazuzu. This was mostly a bird-like god but he was quite\nwell known for his \"serpentine penis\". It is also the name for the fallen angel/demon in The \nExorcist, a book I can't imagine Gene Wolfe did not read. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }