{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5700", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5700, "subject": "Time Structures on Urth", "messages": 11, "voices": 6, "first": "2010-08-11T12:27:50+00:00", "last": "2010-08-11T17:55:31+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T12:27:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time Structures on Urth", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I posted this theory a few years in the past but, at Dan'l's request I'm \ntrotting it out again now. It seems like an appropriate time. We get a very \nnice tour of the Last House and how it works. I think there are other, similar, \nstructures to be found in BotNS. \n \nAt the end of CotA, Severian is flying around the Citadel but unable to find \nValeria's tower. He is only able to find it by retracing his steps through the\ncatacombs to the Atrium of Time. This seems a parallel to when Severian tries\nto take a shortcut to Last House but can't find it until he follows the correct \npath. \n \nSo I assume that the top of Valeria's tower, like the top of Last House,\nexists in Severian's future which is why he cannot find either. Valeria is said\nto be old fashioned and antiquely dressed. She lives in the lower levels of her\ntower. I deduce that her tower (and perhaps other towers around the Atrium of Time)\nis a time structure with lower levels in the past. From Severian's perspective,\nthe Last House does not have any lower levels." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From the comparison of these two structures I think we can find others which share\nthe features of a labyrinthine entrance path to a vertical structure which transports\npeople to a different time. I think the clearest example is the Jungle Hut. I think\nRobert, Marie and Isangoma are meant to be shown as on Earth and not Urth. Since \nSeverian and Agia have to ascend to get there I think it shows that Earth, in some way, \nis the future of Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAn interesting irony can be concluded regarding the time scale which is traversed. I\nhave reason to think that Valeria's tower spans decades (explanation in another\nthread if requested), we know Last House spans millenia and it would seem the \nJungle Hut traverses cosmologic time. So, the flimsier the structure the greater the \nspan of time which is traversed.\n \nI think this theory supports the idea that Earth is in the Yesod universe because it \ndemonstrates that Earth, like Yesod, is in the future of Urth. For so many years\nUrth was seen as the distant future of Earth.\n \nI thought the theory of Yesod being a Kabbalic balcony or second story to Briah and\nUrth was born back in the time when Earth and Urth were considered to be the same planet.\nBut, from the recent posts, it appears that even when Urth is recognized as being a \nprevious version of Earth, the view of Yesod as separate from the Briatic sequence of\ndestructuion and creation remains for those who prefer it. That's cool.\n \nI still prefer viewing Yesod as the next higher universe in sequence with Briah and Earth\nas the next higher in sequence with Urth. It allows the Hierogrammates (or their cognate\nrace) to evolve just as humanity can evolve and escape Yesod to a higher universe still; \none step closer to the Increate. Tzadkiel seems to lament that he remains infinitely far\naway.\n \nI started a thread a while back called \"Wolfe as Heretic\". In one interview he observes that, \nwith the episode in the Temple, Jesus knew what it was to be a torturer. I think we can all\nrecognize that Jesus was more spiritually advanced than Severian. Is it heresy to suggest \nthat the Christ-figure in the universe which is above Yesod would be more spiritually advanced \nthan Jesus? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<49FAC426-67D3-465D-83C2-ABD4BFF53133@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T16:11:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time Structures on Urth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 11, 2010, at 8:27 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI posted this theory a few years in the past but, at Dan'l's request I'm \ntrotting it out again now. It seems like an appropriate time. We get a very \nnice tour of the Last House and how it works. I think there are other, similar, \nstructures to be found in BotNS. \n\nAt the end of CotA, Severian is flying around the Citadel but unable to find \nValeria's tower. He is only able to find it by retracing his steps through the\ncatacombs to the Atrium of Time. This seems a parallel to when Severian tries\nto take a shortcut to Last House but can't find it until he follows the correct \npath. \n\nSo I assume that the top of Valeria's tower, like the top of Last House,\nexists in Severian's future which is why he cannot find either. Valeria is said\nto be old fashioned and antiquely dressed. She lives in the lower levels of her\ntower. I deduce that her tower (and perhaps other towers around the Atrium of Time)\nis a time structure with lower levels in the past. From Severian's perspective,\nthe Last House does not have any lower levels.\n\nFrom the comparison of these two structures I think we can find others which share\nthe features of a labyrinthine entrance path to a vertical structure which transports\npeople to a different time. I think the clearest example is the Jungle Hut. I think\nRobert, Marie and Isangoma are meant to be shown as on Earth and not Urth. Since \nSeverian and Agia have to ascend to get there I think it shows that Earth, in some way, \nis the future of Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What happens if you jump out of the window of a tower in the Atrium of Time or the Last House?\n\nIn the Botanic Gardens, the sand garden has a similar effect, but there is no structure.\n\nFinally, what did you make of Valeria's remark that they put the broken clock portal in the courtyard as a sort of \"sign\" for the Atrium of Time, where Severian assumed that the locale was named after the clock but had it wrong?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C62CDE6.5020009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T16:20:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time Structures on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<49FAC426-67D3-465D-83C2-ABD4BFF53133@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/11/2010 11:11 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nWhat happens if you jump out of the window of a tower in the Atrium of Time or the Last House?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Have you read The Sorcerer's House?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C62D7E4.2050200@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:03:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time Structures on Urth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/11/2010 7:27 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nSo I assume that the top of Valeria's tower, like the top of Last House,\nexists in Severian's future which is why he cannot find either. Valeria is said\nto be old fashioned and antiquely dressed. She lives in the lower levels of her\ntower. I deduce that her tower (and perhaps other towers around the Atrium of Time)\nis a time structure with lower levels in the past. From Severian's perspective,\nthe Last House does not have any lower levels." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Technically, that is inductive rather than deductive reasoning. \nDeductive reasoning would require at least part of thee tower to be \nvisible midway between the past and the future, if that were the case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From the comparison of these two structures I think we can find others which share\nthe features of a labyrinthine entrance path to a vertical structure which transports\npeople to a different time. I think the clearest example is the Jungle Hut. I think\nRobert, Marie and Isangoma are meant to be shown as on Earth and not Urth. Since\nSeverian and Agia have to ascend to get there I think it shows that Earth, in some way,\nis the future of Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The jungle hut can't work the same way as the Last House, because the \nLast House's upper floors look out onto the future many chiliads later \nthan the era the \"ground floor\" opens onto. Robert is seen looking down \nfrom the hut at the ground and clearly sees Severian and Agia \napproaching in real time, and freaks out. The airplane in the sky is \nanachronistic, but still fits in with the jungle hut as a whole since \nMarie mentions the landing strip is three days away by overland travel. \nThere might be time travel involved on the part of the Botanic Gardens \nover all, but I see no evidence the hut itself is special." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I started a thread a while back called \"Wolfe as Heretic\". In one interview he observes that,\nwith the episode in the Temple, Jesus knew what it was to be a torturer. I think we can all\nrecognize that Jesus was more spiritually advanced than Severian. Is it heresy to suggest\nthat the Christ-figure in the universe which is above Yesod would be more spiritually advanced\nthan Jesus? \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably, but that's necesary. It may be that the there are many \nappearances of Christ there, for instance, like the Bradbury story \"The \nMan\" where the astronauts show up the week after His appearance on an \nalien planet. For that matter, there may have been a Jesus on Urth, but \nthe human race someehow rejected His or even his message while keeping \nthe trappings. This lets Robert and Marie be in Urth's past, along with \nthe Sand Garden where the sojurn in the desert happened differently or \nnot at all." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Allan Anderson", "address": "rubel at goosemoon.org" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:03:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time Structures on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<4C62CDE6.5020009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another example which leaps to mind is _The Wizard Knight_'s Tower of\nGlas. Seems like a recurring theme indeed; perhaps you're on to\nsomething, Lee!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 9:20 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 8/11/2010 11:11 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What happens if you jump out of the window of a tower in the Atrium of\nTime or the Last House?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have you read The Sorcerer's House?\n\nu+16b9\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:06:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time Structures on Urth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Aug 11, 2010 at 5:27 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI started a thread a while back called \"Wolfe as Heretic\". In one interview he observes that,\nwith the episode in the Temple, Jesus knew what it was to be a torturer. I think we can all\nrecognize that Jesus was more spiritually advanced than Severian. Is it heresy to suggest\nthat the Christ-figure in the universe which is above Yesod would be more spiritually advanced\nthan Jesus?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, absolutely; since _ex hypothesi_ Jesus is God, there is no such\nthing as \"more spiritually advanced.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<73931102-4484-4A5E-B6D4-BCC66CAAA6A1@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:12:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time Structures on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<4C62CDE6.5020009@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 11, 2010, at 12:20 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 8/11/2010 11:11 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "What happens if you jump out of the window of a tower in the Atrium of Time or the Last House?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Have you read The Sorcerer's House?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Certainly. Did I miss the part where he jumps out? Or are you referring to the house growing rooms?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:16:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time Structures on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<4C62D7E4.2050200@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 11, 2010, at 1:03 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nThe jungle hut can't work the same way as the Last House, because the Last House's upper floors look out onto the future many chiliads later than the era the \"ground floor\" opens onto. Robert is seen looking down from the hut at the ground and clearly sees Severian and Agia approaching in real time, and freaks out. The airplane in the sky is anachronistic, but still fits in with the jungle hut as a whole since Marie mentions the landing strip is three days away by overland travel. There might be time travel involved on the part of the Botanic Gardens over all, but I see no evidence the hut itself is special." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Furthermore, the entire Botanic seems to work off the mirrors causing the time changes. Time is slower in some rooms, and faster in others, but the mirrors are always present, bending things in ways Severian can't understand.\n\nBotanic Gardens seem to relate to Sorcerer's House though, given the disproportionate sizes from inside and out.\n\nAnyone read Danielewski's \"House of Leaves\"? It does a similar thing, though there is a definite psychological parallel to the house's behavior, and the narrator's.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:37:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time Structures on Urth", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Ryan Dunn and Jeff Wilson. Interesting considerations regarding the Jungle Hut\nand Robert's view and the Sand Garden. Will look into these issues! :- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C62E169.8080803@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:44:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time Structures on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<73931102-4484-4A5E-B6D4-BCC66CAAA6A1@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "What happens if you jump out of the window of a tower in the Atrium of Time or the Last House?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Have you read The Sorcerer's House?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Certainly. Did I miss the part where he jumps out? Or are you referring to the house growing rooms?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Baxter jumps out of a window and ends up in Faeri or the Spiritual World \nof Black, werewolves, and dream-traveling psychics. He has to crawl back \ninto the window and walk back to the front door to return to our world. \nIncidentally, I see a parallel here to Castleview where Shields sees the \ncastle from the attic window of the house.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<6B4D4C4B-2307-4485-A7F9-16A23AD4718D@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-11T17:55:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Time Structures on Urth", "in_reply_to": "<4C62E169.8080803@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Aug 11, 2010, at 1:44 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nWhat happens if you jump out of the window of a tower in the Atrium of Time or the Last House?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Have you read The Sorcerer's House?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Certainly. Did I miss the part where he jumps out? Or are you referring to the house growing rooms?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Baxter jumps out of a window and ends up in Faeri or the Spiritual World of Black, werewolves, and dream-traveling psychics. He has to crawl back into the window and walk back to the front door to return to our world. Incidentally, I see a parallel here to Castleview where Shields sees the castle from the attic window of the house." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aah, I thought he snuck out of the window not jumped, but either way, yes so the windows are basically portals to whatever the person inside sees outside, then.\n\n...ryan" } ] } ] }