{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5708", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5708, "subject": "Patera Incus", "messages": 36, "voices": 8, "first": "2010-08-13T16:09:54+00:00", "last": "2010-08-16T20:33:30+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T16:09:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn- I think it is pretty plain that Patera Incus is female. But I've \nonly had one person remark on that assertion approving." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think that is interesting. I am not as intimately familiar with Long Sun as \nBotNS but my intutive impression has been that Patera Incus is a \n(probably non-practicing) homosexual. I'd be interested in hearing your ideas. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-14T11:26:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nJames Wynn- I think it is pretty plain that Patera Incus is female. But\nI've\nonly had one person remark on that assertion approving." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that is interesting. I am not as intimately familiar with Long Sun\nas\nBotNS but my intutive impression has been that Patera Incus is a\n(probably non-practicing) homosexual. I'd be interested in hearing your\nideas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If Incus is not a rather campy homosexual... how then would one write a\ncampy homosexual?\n\nThere's one passage where he writes in a letter something like \"me with a \nWOMAN [ridiculous]\". That is not the writing of a woman masquerading as a \nman.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C66931D.9050001@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T12:59:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/14/2010 6:26 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Lee Berman\" \nJames Wynn- I think it is pretty plain that Patera Incus is female. But\nI've\nonly had one person remark on that assertion approving." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that is interesting. I am not as intimately familiar with Long\nSun\nas\nBotNS but my intutive impression has been that Patera Incus is a\n(probably non-practicing) homosexual. I'd be interested in hearing your\nideas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Incus is not a rather campy homosexual... how then would one write a\ncampy homosexual?\n\nThere's one passage where he writes in a letter something like \"me with\na WOMAN [ridiculous]\". That is not the writing of a woman masquerading\nas a man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Unless the woman were to cleverly pose as a homosexual man; see \nVICTOR/VICTORIA." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C66EFCC.3000903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T19:34:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C66931D.9050001@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " 1. Why Patera Inucus is a woman...\n\n1.1 The Letters to Fulmar\nIn Lake of the Long Sun, Incus is attempting to say something to \"My \nDear Friend Fulmar\". The Patera is trying to express something to him \nbut doesn't quite no how. Unfortunately, Incus recognizes that Fulmar is \nnot especially perceptive as reflected by his name, meaning a type of \ngull which in Vironese thieves cant is a simpleton.\n\n1.1.1 First attempt.\nIncus writes a note to explain why he can't come to the Black Mechanics \nmeeting. The letter has two parts italicized (probably underlined in \nIncus's actual letter):\n_a woman_ and _myself_\"\nIncus thinks, \"_Myself_ standing for _I_, as even that fool Fulmar could \nnot help but understand\"\nHowever, Incus decides that this is too obvious. Remora might find the \nletter. It was to risky.\n\n1.1.2 Second Attempt. This time Incus disguises his handwriting.\n\"You know, my friend, yet it might be more thoughtully be said that you \ncannot know, how much I have been looking forward to a _plain firsthand \naccount_ of the marvelous adventures of our mutual acquaintance Bee. Bee \nhimself.\n\nIncus thinks, \"No, it would not do. Fulmar would be utterly thrown off \nthe scent by _the male pronoun_.\" [emphasis mine]\n\nQuestion how does the male pronoun throw Fulmar \"off the scent\"? Off the \nscent of what?\n\nAnswer: Off the scent of the name _Bee_. The order for bees is \n\"_hymen_optera. And of course, a hymen is a female anatomy. It also \nmight be an identity that Incus is otherwise known to Fulmar. Because, \nshe tells Gulo regarding the name \"Hy\":\n\"Her full name would be \"Hymenocallis\", I expect....Very pretty, I've \nused it a time or two myself.\"\n\nWhat Incus was trying to get Fulmar to clue to was that \"Bee \n(hymen=woman), himself\" meant \"woman myself\". Too subtle? Yes. Incus \nultimately agreed.\n\n1.1.3 Finally, Incus decides to go to Fulmar's house in person and \ndeliver \"a clear, straightforward message\" (compare to the message in \n1.1.2). Additionally the text says:\n\"Nor would the trouble and loss of time go entirely unrecompensed; _he, \nIncus_, [compare to the letter in 1.1.1, emphasis mine] would at least \nhave the satisfaction of...\"\n\nIt is not clear that Incus ever got around to delivering that letter. \nProbably not. By the time \"he\" returned to Prolocutor's Palace, Incus \n_was_ the Prolocutor annointed by Scylla (sort of).\n\n1.2 Auk's Failed Attempt to Sacrifice Hyacinth\n\nAuk kidnaps Hy to sacrifice her to Tartaros. But during the sacrifice \nthe god tells him to let her go. It's a weird scene and deriving an \nunambivalent understanding from the text alone of what is going on is \nsimply not possible. Fortunately, Wolfe has explained it on this very \nlist during the famous Q&A:\n\nQ. Why did Auk ... kidnap Hyacinth, and why, subsequently, did he let \nher go?\n\nA. Because Tartaros had told him to bring a woman. He released her as he \nrecovered from his brain injury, was able to think more clearly, and \nrealized that _Hyacinth was not the woman he should bring_. (Putting it \nanother way, he released her because Tartaros told him to. These answers \nare not as disparate as they may appear.)\n\nOkay. Hyacinth was likely an unsuitable sacrifice because she wasn't a \nvirgin. Additionally, we learn at Mint and Sand's sacrifice that \n*presenting* the woman is all that is needed. I think Hy was unsuitable \nfor other reasons too, but that's another can of worms. The question \nbefore us is what woman SHOULD he have brought? More to the point, what \nwoman DID he bring?\n\nWell, Incus was there in front of the Sacred Window. And even her name \n(or one of them) means \"virgin\".\n\n1.3 Thematic Evidences\n\nAlthough the previous evidences seem sufficient to me now, they are not \nthe reasons I first realized that Incus was a woman. They only presented \nthemselves afterwards. The realization came to me first when I \ndiscovered that Wolfe was working mythology into the characters of Silk \nand Auk. And in every instance in which Incus took part in that \"working \nin\", the patera played the part of a female.\n\n1.3.1 Aristeas\n\nWhen reading Nightside, I saw that there were ways Silk seemed to be \nconnected to Apollo. So I got out Robert Graves' \"The Greek Myths\" and \nchecked the index to review every myth in which the god took part. Also, \nnoted that Graves said rosemary, mint, and myrtle were used in funerary \nrites. Ah so! Silk's sybs are named after the plants of used in funerary \nrites. Where else does myrtle come from? Well, the poet/prophet/priest \nAristaeus, who was written about by Pindar, the Theban poet who appears \nin \"Soldier of the Mist\", who was a SON of Apollo, was raised by the \nMyrtle Nymphs. So I started paying attention to Graves's description of \nAristaeus' bio while reading the rest of the Book of the Long Sun. And \n*to my pleasure* the novel and Graves' rendition mapped perfectly from \nbeginning to end.\n\nIncidentally, story of Horn story in The Book of the Short Sun maps \nnicely for him as the son of Aristaeus, Actaeon. But that's another can \nof worms.\n\nWhat surprised me however was the sacrifice of the bullocks and heifers. \nWolfe does this twice and in both circumstance Incus was counted among \nthe heifers.\n\n1.3.2 Hesphaestus\n\nSilk and Auk divide the works of Hesphaestus between them. They actually \ndivide other myths between them as well. But for Hesphaestus, Silk \nperforms all his deeds on Mt Olympus (including being thrown off the \nmountain by Hera and lamed). Auk performs those deeds off of Olympus \nwhen he was banished from the mountain and worked below the sea with \nThetis and Eurynome.\n\nNow Hesphaestus's workshop was an interesting place. It had \"mechanical \nwomen\" who aided him.\n\nIn Exodus of the Long Sun, when Auk, under Tartaros's divine influence, \nbegins repairing Sand, performing the deeds of Hesphaestus as smith, he \nis assisted directly by Incus who hands him his tools and holds the \nlight. Incus is of course a \"black mechanic\" and \"a woman\"--a mechanical \nwoman.\n\n\n2. Does Incus Appear as a Woman anywhere in the story?\n\nYes and no. Not on stage, per se.\n\nBut Incus has those large, yellow teeth. And the \"incus\" is a bone in \nthe ear. So, I presume that Incus is the enigmatic Maytera Corn (ear of \ncorn) who instructs the chem Olivine while she is living Prolocutor \nIncus's house (Return to the Whorl).\n\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C66F396.7040007@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T19:50:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C66EFCC.3000903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " One other association that I meant to point out:\n\na) hymen (derived from the Greek for \"membrane\"\nb) tympanic membrane in the ear drum\nc) incus (a bone in the ear drum)\n\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C678B33.9080101@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T06:37:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C66EFCC.3000903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee- a brief comment on your Patera Incus post. Thanks for posting it. It does\nseem like a similar process to the one in which I identify Father Inire in various guises. There\nare just a constellation of tiny clues. None by itself means much, but together they become hard to\nignore. You know SOMETHING is going on. And I like the conclusion that Patera Incus is a woman. It\nseems very Wolfean to me. My intuitive impression, that he was a secretly a gay priest, is not such a\nshocking revelation, even in the real world. And not one worthy of subtle clues in a Wolfe book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, it wouldn't be much of a secret and it is hard to imagine that \neither the Charter or Vironese society would care much. Spider certainly \ndoesn't bother to hide his preferences. Incus is pretty open in accusing \nGulo of having homosexual inclinations.\n\nBut for a woman to be an augur. Well, that would be unacceptable. That \nwould bring more than a handful of problems if it were \nrevealed...especially with Incus's extra small hands.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-15T10:18:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C66EFCC.3000903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \n 1. Why Patera Inucus is a woman..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1.1.2 Second Attempt. This time Incus disguises his handwriting.\n\"You know, my friend, yet it might be more thoughtully be said that you \ncannot know, how much I have been looking forward to a _plain firsthand \naccount_ of the marvelous adventures of our mutual acquaintance Bee. Bee \nhimself.\n\nIncus thinks, \"No, it would not do. Fulmar would be utterly thrown off the \nscent by _the male pronoun_.\" [emphasis mine]\n\nQuestion how does the male pronoun throw Fulmar \"off the scent\"? Off the \nscent of what?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of who \"Bee\" is, surely? Wasn't it short for a female's name, somebody \nother than Incus, who had reprogrammed the valet chem?\n\nStill, you make some interesting points. Maybe he is after all a woman in \ndisguise.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C67F9BE.2000507@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T14:29:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn-\n1.1.2 Second Attempt. This time Incus disguises his handwriting.\n\"You know, my friend, yet it might be more thoughtully be said that \nyou cannot know, how much I have been looking forward to a _plain \nfirsthand account_ of the marvelous adventures of our mutual \nacquaintance Bee. Bee himself.\nIncus thinks, \"No, it would not do. Fulmar would be utterly thrown \noff the scent by _the male pronoun_.\" [emphasis mine]\nQuestion how does the male pronoun throw Fulmar \"off the scent\"? Off \nthe scent of what?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nOf who \"Bee\" is, surely? Wasn't it short for a female's name, \nsomebody other than Incus, who had reprogrammed the valet chem? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That doesn't really work.\n\n1) The valet was a male chem.\n\"Nor would the trouble and loss of time go entirely unrecompensed; he, \nIncus, would at least have the satisfaction of inquiring just how long \nit had been since the unfortunate valet had received _his_ wages, and \nobserving the chem's baffled incomprehension.\"\nLake of the Long Sun, Chapter X, On the Belly of the Whorl\n\n2) Remember that this is the *second* attempt at a letter. I don't think \nthere's any way the first could be interpreted as relating to the valet \nor the experiment.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<1507FF804F5A48C09B7E5C5155D69026@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-15T15:08:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C67F9BE.2000507@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \n1.1.2 Second Attempt. This time Incus disguises his handwriting.\n\"You know, my friend, yet it might be more thoughtully be said that you \ncannot know, how much I have been looking forward to a _plain firsthand \naccount_ of the marvelous adventures of our mutual acquaintance Bee. Bee \nhimself.\nIncus thinks, \"No, it would not do. Fulmar would be utterly thrown off \nthe scent by _the male pronoun_.\" [emphasis mine]\nQuestion how does the male pronoun throw Fulmar \"off the scent\"? Off the \nscent of what?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nOf who \"Bee\" is, surely? Wasn't it short for a female's name, somebody \nother than Incus, who had reprogrammed the valet chem?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That doesn't really work.\n\n1) The valet was a male chem." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mixed up Bittersweet's porter and Fulmar's valet, but that doesn't really \nmatter.\n\n\"Bittersweet had promised to show everyone the wonders she had achieved with \nan old porter... Incus had wanted to see that\" (He wanted to check out the \nvalet too.)\n\nIn his letter he writes \"I have been looking forward to a firsthand account \nfrom our mutual acquaintance Bee. Bee himself.\"\n\nMy understanding was that he was trying to be discreet in case the letter \nwas intercepted." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Nor would the trouble and loss of time go entirely unrecompensed; he, \nIncus, would at least have the satisfaction of inquiring just how long it \nhad been since the unfortunate valet had received _his_ wages, and \nobserving the chem's baffled incomprehension.\"\nLake of the Long Sun, Chapter X, On the Belly of the Whorl\n\n2) Remember that this is the *second* attempt at a letter. I don't think \nthere's any way the first could be interpreted as relating to the valet or \nthe experiment." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But how does the first version help your case?\n\n(By the way, this is just a quibble about one of your reasons why Incus \nmight be a woman; it doesn't apply to the rest.)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C680A53.8050008@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T15:40:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<1507FF804F5A48C09B7E5C5155D69026@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn-\n1) The valet was a male chem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nI mixed up Bittersweet's porter and Fulmar's valet, but that doesn't \nreally matter. \"Bittersweet had promised to show everyone the wonders \nshe had achieved with an old porter... Incus had wanted to see that\" \n(He wanted to check out the valet too.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The valet had been altered by Incus. Thus, \"satisfaction\" at asking how \nlong since he had received his wages. Therefore, having already seen the \nchem and knowing full well what the results were, seeing him again was \njust a side issue, as Incus said. And the chem that Bittersweet would \nuse was a male too.\n\"He had wanted very much to see the old porter with _his_ skullplate and \nfaceplate removed.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In his letter he writes \"I have been looking forward to a firsthand \naccount from our mutual acquaintance Bee. Bee himself.\" My \nunderstanding was that he was trying to be discreet in case the letter \nwas intercepted." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Incus was trying to be discreet, but not about that. The message \nthat the patera is attempting to convey must have been attempted in both \nletters. That the letter might be intercepted was a concern, but the \nfrustration of getting dense Fulmar to understand something he didn't \nknow was the primary concern." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn-\n2) Remember that this is the *second* attempt at a letter. I don't \nthink there's any way the first could be interpreted as relating to \nthe valet or the experiment." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But how does the first version help your case? (By the way, this is \njust a quibble about one of your reasons why Incus might be a woman; \nit doesn't apply to the rest.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The first letter emphasizes \"a woman\" and \"myself\". This is an \nintentional clue as Incus thinks to herself after writing it:\n\"_Myself_ standing for _I_, as even that fool Fulmar could not help but \nunderstand.\"\n\nSo the message is \"I, a woman\".\n\nWolfe emphasizes this for the reader later when Incus thinks, \"_he \nIncus_, would at least have the satisfaction of...\"\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2AF3ACF2B6134B64B08B8A3AB44D7326@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-15T15:54:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C680A53.8050008@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The valet had been altered by Incus. Thus, \"satisfaction\" at asking how long since he had received his wages." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, he was alered by Fulmar with the help of Incus. \"The valet had been a most creditable little project, and one Fulmar could never have brought to its wholly successful conclusion without his help.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Therefore, having already seen the chem and knowing full well what the results were, seeing him again was just a side issue, as Incus said. And the chem that Bittersweet would use was a male too." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"He had wanted very much to see the old porter with _his_ skullplate and faceplate removed.\"\n\nI don't see what the gender of either chem has to do with anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, Incus was trying to be discreet, but not about that. The message that the patera is attempting to convey must have been attempted in both letters. That the letter might be intercepted was a concern, but the frustration of getting dense Fulmar to understand something he didn't know was the primary concern." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The message was: \"I can't make it tonight.\" The rest is chit-chat. \n\nAnd why would Incus be planting clues of this kind anyway? He really wanted to see Bittersweet's porter, that is made clear in the text. Why does he want to make puzzles for Fulmar?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<674262.9786.qm@smtp824.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2010-08-15T17:31:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C66EFCC.3000903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 20:34 14/08/2010, James wrote:\n1.1 The Letters to Fulmar\nIn Lake of the Long Sun, Incus is attempting to say something to \"My \nDear Friend Fulmar\". The Patera is trying to express something to \nhim but doesn't quite no how. Unfortunately, Incus recognizes that \nFulmar is not especially perceptive as reflected by his name, \nmeaning a type of gull which in Vironese thieves cant is a simpleton." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just on a zoological note: a fulmar is not a type of gull, but a type \nof petrel. Apart from both being birds, fulmars and gulls are not \nrelated at all.\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C682D94.10705@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T18:10:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<1507FF804F5A48C09B7E5C5155D69026@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn-\nThe valet had been altered by Incus. Thus, \"satisfaction\" at asking \nhow long since he had received his wages." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn-\nNo, he was alered by Fulmar with the help of Incus. \"The valet had \nbeen a most creditable little project, and one Fulmar could never have \nbrought to its wholly successful conclusion without his help.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tomayto Tomahto." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see what the gender of either chem has to do with anything." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Me neither. When Incus writes \"our friend Bee. Bee himself.\" and then \ndecides \"Fulmar would be utterly thrown off the scent by _the male \npronoun_\", he is not referring to the sex of any chem. But there is no \nreference to Bittersweet in the first email." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The message was: \"I can't make it tonight.\" The rest is chit-chat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why not just say, \"I can't make it tonight due to Chapter duties\"? Why \nreference Bittersweet at all? Once again, there is no mention of \nBittersweet in the first email. Yet it was considered riskier than the \nsecond where you suppose Incus is employing a code name for Bittersweet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And why would Incus be planting clues of this kind anyway? He really \nwanted to see Bittersweet's porter, that is made clear in the text. \nWhy does he want to make puzzles for Fulmar?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Incus is attempting to reveal herself to Fulmar, \"my dear friend\". It \nseems, she is in love and knows the relationship will not progress as \nlong as Fulmar continues to consider it fraternal. (It's not \"Victor \nVictoria\", it's \"Yentl\".)\n\nShe wants to impart the information in a way that Fulmar will come to \nthe conclusion himself. She is afraid of shocking him.\n\nIt's interesting to me that you presume the letters have to do with a \ndesire to see Bittersweet's demonstration. In my experience, most \nreaders think Incus is attempting to reveal a homosexual love for \nFulmar. I hope I at least shown that that is not likely.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C682E1B.5000409@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T18:12:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<674262.9786.qm@smtp824.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just on a zoological note: a fulmar is not a type of gull, but a type \nof petrel. Apart from both being birds, fulmars and gulls are not \nrelated at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm..Interesting, since fulmar means \"foul gull\".\n\nThanks.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C682ED7.9080105@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T18:15:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C682D94.10705@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 8/15/2010 1:10 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nMe neither. When Incus writes \"our friend Bee. Bee himself.\" and then \ndecides \"Fulmar would be utterly thrown off the scent by _the male \npronoun_\", he is not referring to the sex of any chem. But there is no \nreference to Bittersweet in the first email." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "heh \"letter\" not \"email\"." } ] }, { "message_id": "<003001cb3cc1$55090400$99d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-08-15T21:32:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C66EFCC.3000903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n 1. Why Patera Inucus is a woman...\n\n1.1 The Letters to Fulmar\nIn Lake of the Long Sun, Incus is attempting to say something to \"My\nDear Friend Fulmar\". The Patera is trying to express something to him\nbut doesn't quite no how. Unfortunately, Incus recognizes that Fulmar is\nnot especially perceptive as reflected by his name, meaning a type of\ngull which in Vironese thieves cant is a simpleton.\n\n1.1.1 First attempt.\nIncus writes a note to explain why he can't come to the Black Mechanics\nmeeting. The letter has two parts italicized (probably underlined in\nIncus's actual letter):\n_a woman_ and _myself_\"\nIncus thinks, \"_Myself_ standing for _I_, as even that fool Fulmar could\nnot help but understand\"\nHowever, Incus decides that this is too obvious. Remora might find the\nletter. It was to risky." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The two underlined parts of the note are not related. The first refers to\nthe object of the mission Remora sent him on. Incus is mildly scandalized\nthat his boss is sending him, an augur, in search of a woman of ill repute.\nAugurs are not supposed to associate with strange women outside of their\npriestly duties. On top of that, Incus is evidently homosexual, which makes\nhis mission even more ironic. He obviously dares not sign the note, so the\n_Myself_ is his way of communicating who wrote it. The other contents of the\nnote impart enough information for Fulmar to understand who the Myself is --\ngiven the planned meeting that night of the black mechanics, at which\nBittersweet was to demonstrate her latest technique." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1.1.2 Second Attempt. This time Incus disguises his handwriting.\n\"You know, my friend, yet it might be more thoughtully be said that you\ncannot know, how much I have been looking forward to a _plain firsthand\naccount_ of the marvelous adventures of our mutual acquaintance Bee. Bee\nhimself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The _plain firsthand account_ refers to Incus's fervent desire to witness\nfor himself Bittersweet's new technique, as indicated by his thoughts right\nbefore he first picked up the quill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incus thinks, \"No, it would not do. Fulmar would be utterly thrown off\nthe scent by _the male pronoun_.\" [emphasis mine]\n\nQuestion how does the male pronoun throw Fulmar \"off the scent\"? Off the\nscent of what?\n\nAnswer: Off the scent of the name _Bee_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree with that sentence, anyway. Incus doesn't want to betray the\nidentity of a fellow black mechanic, so he writes \"Bee\" because that is the\nsound of the first letter in Bittersweet as well as the initial. The\nmasculine pronoun was a further attempt to disguise her identity should the\nnote be intercepted. The altered handwriting was also an attempt to hide\nIncus's identity, since Remora was familiar with his handwriting.\n\nThe first version of the note said what Incus wanted to say, as indicated by\nhis satisfaction with it, but was too risky. He abandoned both notes in\nfavor of delivering an oral message to Fulmar's chem valet.\n\nI don't suppose it matters that masculine pronouns are used to describe\nIncus in the list of characters at the front of the book.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T23:10:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<003001cb3cc1$55090400$99d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James: Unfortunately, Incus recognizes that Fulmar is not especially perceptive as reflected \nby his name, meaning a type of gull which in Vironese thieves cant is a simpleton" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo Holkar: Just on a zoological note: a fulmar is not a type of gull, but a type \nof petrel. Apart from both being birds, fulmars and gulls are not \nrelated at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nWell, they are both seabirds comprising a smaller much smaller subset than that which would \ninclude owls and ostriches. But it is still a good correction to make (given my own background,\nI can never complain about more accurate zoology). Gulls are generally more intensely\nsocial and as such, as tends to be the case among social predators, more cunning and intelligent \nthan petrels. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C688C17.9050202@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T00:53:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<003001cb3cc1$55090400$99d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn-\n1.1.1 First attempt.\nIncus writes a note to explain why he can't come to the Black Mechanics\nmeeting. The letter has two parts italicized (probably underlined in\nIncus's actual letter):\n_a woman_ and _myself_\"\nIncus thinks, \"_Myself_ standing for _I_, as even that fool Fulmar could\nnot help but understand\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey-\nThe two underlined parts of the note are not related. The first refers to\nthe object of the mission Remora sent him on. Incus is mildly scandalized\nthat his boss is sending him, an augur, in search of a woman of ill repute.\nAugurs are not supposed to associate with strange women outside of their\npriestly duties." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "??? This is a strange argument.\nIt would be mildly scandalous to be alone with a woman in an augur's \nresidence at night. It would not be at all wrong for augurs to be in the \ncasual presence of women with more than two people present. Remora and \nQuetzal are in the casual presence of women all the time. Incus is not \nat all misogynistic as the phrase in the first letter implied. The time \nspent with Chenille and the desire to see Bittersweet's demonstration is \nevidence enough of that. That part of the letter was disingenuous. It \nwas a PLOY to work the term \"a woman\" into the letter with emphasis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On top of that, Incus is evidently homosexual, which makes\nhis mission even more ironic. He obviously dares not sign the note, so the\n_Myself_ is his way of communicating who wrote it. The other contents of the\nnote impart enough information for Fulmar to understand who the Myself is --" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then why include \"myself\"?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "given the planned meeting that night of the black mechanics, at which\nBittersweet was to demonstrate her latest technique." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "1.1.2 Second Attempt. This time Incus disguises his handwriting.\n\"You know, my friend, yet it might be more thoughtully be said that you\ncannot know, how much I have been looking forward to a _plain firsthand\naccount_ of the marvelous adventures of our mutual acquaintance Bee. Bee\nhimself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The _plain firsthand account_ refers to Incus's fervent desire to witness\nfor himself Bittersweet's new technique, as indicated by his thoughts right\nbefore he first picked up the quill." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only parallel between the two letters is \"myself\" (which positively \nrefers to Incus) and \"himself\" (which is a positive misdirection). \nConsidering what Incus said in the first letter, \"himself\" refers to the \nsame person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Incus thinks, \"No, it would not do. Fulmar would be utterly thrown off\nthe scent by _the male pronoun_.\" [emphasis mine]\nQuestion how does the male pronoun throw Fulmar \"off the scent\"? Off the\nscent of what?\nAnswer: Off the scent of the name _Bee_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree with that sentence, anyway. Incus doesn't want to betray the\nidentity of a fellow black mechanic, so he writes \"Bee\" because that is the\nsound of the first letter in Bittersweet as well as the initial.The masculine\npronoun was a further attempt to disguise her identity should the\nnote be intercepted. The altered handwriting was also an attempt to hide\nIncus's identity, since Remora was familiar with his handwriting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But now there is no way for Fulmar to know who is writing the letter \nnow. That was what was so important before, no?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The first version of the note said what Incus wanted to say, as indicated by his satisfaction with it, but was too risky. He abandoned both notes in favor of delivering an oral message to Fulmar's chem valet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "All this fails to address why an elaborate message was required in the \nfirst place. Incus could have just sent a note saying \"I regret that I \ncannot make it tonight due to duties at work\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't suppose it matters that masculine pronouns are used to describe\nIncus in the list of characters at the front of the book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. That would be an utterly trivial argument. Maytera Marble is \ndescribed as \"she\" in the list of characters in front of the book-- the \nprononun is strictly formal. She is not physically a woman.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005101cb3d08$971ec540$f4cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-08-16T06:02:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C688C17.9050202@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn quoted and wrote:\nOn top of that, Incus is evidently homosexual, which makes\nhis mission even more ironic. He obviously dares not sign the note, so\nthe\n_Myself_ is his way of communicating who wrote it. The other contents of\nthe\nnote impart enough information for Fulmar to understand who the Myself\nis --" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then why include \"myself\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's \"your poor coworker Myself,\". The coworker part distinguishes Incus\nfrom Bittersweet or any other invited guests, if any. It had been Incus who\nhad worked with Fulmar to alter Fulmar's chem valet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "\"You know, my friend, yet it might be more thoughtully be said that you\ncannot know, how much I have been looking forward to a _plain firsthand\naccount_ of the marvelous adventures of our mutual acquaintance Bee." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bee" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The _plain firsthand account_ refers to Incus's fervent desire to\nwitness\nfor himself Bittersweet's new technique, as indicated by his thoughts\nright\nbefore he first picked up the quill." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only parallel between the two letters is \"myself\" (which positively\nrefers to Incus) and \"himself\" (which is a positive misdirection).\nConsidering what Incus said in the first letter, \"himself\" refers to the\nsame person." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Himself\" isn't used in the first note. There is no punctuation mark after\n\"Bee himself\"in the second note. Incus just stopped writing at that point,\nsure that Fulmar would be thrown by the male pronoun. If Incus believed\nFulmar not sharp enough to understand that \"Bee\" stood for Bittersweet, how\ncould he possibly expect Fulmar to unravel an oblique cipher, the purpose of\nwhich was to communicate to Fulmar that his friend Patera Incus was in fact\na she? A cryptic note written in haste is hardly the time or means of\nimparting such a bizarre and personal revelation." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Incus thinks, \"No, it would not do. Fulmar would be utterly thrown off\nthe scent by _the male pronoun_.\" [emphasis mine]\nQuestion how does the male pronoun throw Fulmar \"off the scent\"? Off\nthe\nscent of what?\nAnswer: Off the scent of the name _Bee_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I agree with that sentence, anyway. Incus doesn't want to betray the\nidentity of a fellow black mechanic, so he writes \"Bee\" because that is\nthe\nsound of the first letter in Bittersweet as well as the initial.The\nmasculine\npronoun was a further attempt to disguise her identity should the\nnote be intercepted. The altered handwriting was also an attempt to hide\nIncus's identity, since Remora was familiar with his handwriting." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But now there is no way for Fulmar to know who is writing the letter\nnow. That was what was so important before, no?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Bittersweet was not mentioned in the first note, so the \"coworker\" served to\nclue Fulmar in on which of the invited black mechanics wrote it. Bittersweet\nis referenced in the second note as Bee, so the writer of the note had to be\nanother invited guest, but the note was left unfinished. Had it been\nfinished, Incus may have worked in a way to identify the sender, as he did\nin the first version." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The first version of the note said what Incus wanted to say, as\nindicated by his satisfaction with it, but was too risky. He abandoned both\nnotes in favor of delivering an oral message to Fulmar's chem valet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "All this fails to address why an elaborate message was required in the\nfirst place. Incus could have just sent a note saying \"I regret that I\ncannot make it tonight due to duties at work\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Incus makes it clear that he wanted to see with his own eyes exactly how\nBittersweet had tinkered with an old porter chem. Hearing about it wasn't\ngood enough, and he was bitterly disappointed.\n\nA better point to address would be why Incus would use an elarorate message\nto make such a personal revelation in the first place. In any event, Incus\ndid plan to personally deliver \"a clear straightforward message\" to Fulmar's\nvalet, and I very seriously doubt that the message to be delivered to a\nvalet had anything to do with a surprise revelation about gender issues." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't suppose it matters that masculine pronouns are used to describe\nIncus in the list of characters at the front of the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. That would be an utterly trivial argument. Maytera Marble is\ndescribed as \"she\" in the list of characters in front of the book-- the\nprononun is strictly formal. She is not physically a woman." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Trivial? Then, by that logic, the chapter titles in SHADOW don't mean\nanything either, in which case the face on the greasy coins can be\nTzadkiel's or anyone else imagined. No, Marble is not a human woman, but in\nWolfe's Sun Cycle chems are designated male and female and the pronouns just\ncome with the usage. That is a spurious argument.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C690897.8060409@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T09:44:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<005101cb3d08$971ec540$f4cf4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Roy,\n\nI don't think you and I are going to come to an agreement about this. \nYour statement \"The two underlined parts of the [first] note are not \nrelated\" is an \"Uncle Andrew\" moment. I don't see how to get over it.\n\nFor me the repeated derivable occurrences of the word \"hymen\" and it's \nconnection to Incus's name are just too compelling. They are not \ncoincidental." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[snip]Bittersweet had tinkered with an old porter chem. Hearing about it wasn't\ngood enough, and he was bitterly disappointed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let's address this from Wolfe's point of view. Why two elaborate \nattempts at a letter that (by your reading) reveal nothing to us that \nwas not carefully explained in the previous page of text?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A better point to address would be why Incus would use an elarorate message\nto make such a personal revelation in the first place." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because it gives Wolfe a chance to reveal something about Incus. \nSomething which is not accomplished at all by your reading--because by \nyour reading nothing at all is accomplished. I can see that this is \"a \nbetter point to address\" from your perspective since the original \nquestion is not resolvable for you." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In any event, Incus\ndid plan to personally deliver \"a clear straightforward message\" to Fulmar's\nvalet, and I very seriously doubt that the message to be delivered to a\nvalet had anything to do with a surprise revelation about gender issues." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I imagine the letter to the valet would have looked much like the first \nnote." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "valet had anything to do with a surprise revelation about gender issues.\n[snip]Trivial? Then, by that logic, the chapter titles in SHADOW don't mean\nanything either, in which case the face on the greasy coins can be\nTzadkiel's or anyone else imagined. No, Marble is not a human woman, but in\nWolfe's Sun Cycle chems are designated male and female and the pronouns just\ncome with the usage. That is a spurious argument." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm...so you conflate my assertion about the character list to chapter \ntitles and textual clues, but *my* argument is spurious? It would be \nrather stupid for Wolfe to develop a subtlely alluded \"Pope Joan\" \ncharacter and then paste \"she\" all over the character list. The \ncharacter list is not intended as a spoiler.\n\nLook, Roy, your counter-argument is founded on two very tenuous \nassertions to my mind: That Wolfe had Incus toil over two expansive, \napparently risky letters when a brief, to-the-point note would have \nsufficed *from the author's perspective*. That the deliberate emphasis \non the words \"a woman\" and \"myself\" in the first letter have no literary \nvalue (they don't connote any that would not be perfectly obvious if the \nemphases were not there). Wolfe's stories are not read like that, and \nthey shouldn't be. When a pointless artifact is dramatically laid on the \ntable, it's not pointless. When a character who is important to the \nincidental inner circle of characters is discussed but never appears on \nstage, it's not because the discussion was mere flourish.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<568526.41209.qm@smtp823.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2010-08-16T09:53:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "At 00:10 16/08/2010, Lee wrote:\nMo Holkar: Just on a zoological note: a fulmar is not a type of \ngull, but a type\nof petrel. Apart from both being birds, fulmars and gulls are not\nrelated at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, they are both seabirds comprising a smaller much smaller \nsubset than that which would include owls and ostriches." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Although they are in that sense more closely culturally associated \nwith gulls than are owls and ostriches, really they are no more \nclosely related to them than those other birds are. \"Seabirds\" is not \na genetic relationship grouping, just a behavioural coincidence of habitat.\n\n(Of course, Wolfe may have just been intending a cultural association \nof this sort in Fulmar's name, as it might have been difficult to \nfind an actual gull-based name that didn't include the obvious word \"gull\".)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 19:12 15/08/2010, James wrote:\nHmm..Interesting, since fulmar means \"foul gull\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is certainly its etymology, although linguists will give you a \nlong debate on whether etymology and meaning are necessarily strongly \nlinked ;-) It's reasonable that the ancient Norse thought fulmars \nwere a type of gull, as they do look superficially fairly similar. I \nwould be surprised if Wolfe made the same mistake... although see \nparentheses above.\n\nbest,\n\nMo\n\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C69253B.3080001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T11:47:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<568526.41209.qm@smtp823.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 8/16/2010 4:53 AM, Mo Holkar wrote:\n(Of course, Wolfe may have just been intending a cultural association \nof this sort in Fulmar's name, as it might have been difficult to find \nan actual gull-based name that didn't include the obvious word \"gull\".) " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This seems quite plausible.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T12:32:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C69253B.3080001@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: When a pointless artifact is dramatically laid on the \ntable, it's not pointless. When a character who is important to the \nincidental inner circle of characters is discussed but never appears on \nstage, it's not because the discussion was mere flourish." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James, I think your first conclusion is that if Wolfe goes through the trouble \nof describing how a letter is written and re-written then SOMETHING weird is \ngoing on. I think even Roy might agree with this conclusion though it might strain \nevery fiber in his being to admit it. I acknowledge and appreciate the effort he\nmade a month or two ago to concede, after years of discussion, that perhaps \nthere is some monkey business going on with Father Inire.\n \nJames, your second conclusion is a hypothesis to explain what weird thing is\nhappening with these letters- Incus is a woman. Perhaps part of your (perceived\non my part) frustration is that Roy is finding evidence to poke holes in your \nconclusion without offering an alternate conclusion on what is going one here\n(other than the default- nothing). Others might attack your conclusion by \ninstead by proposing more plausible explanations of their own.\n \nPerhaps these others could be compared to infantrymen, engating in battle mano-a mano.\nIf so, perhaps we can see Roy as akin to a sniper. He cannot risk his acknowledged \n(by me and others including Borski and Andre-Driussi) value as a defender of the lupine \ngospel by betraying his own position and subjecting himself to the withering fire of the \nenemy.\n \nWe each have our talents. If we recognize this and approach disussing Wolfe as though we \nare on the same team as opposed to working against each other, I think progress will be\nmaximized. As I see it, Roy is not shooting down your theory, he is helping to improve it.\n \nMy opinion is that something weird IS going on when a fictional letter is written, then \nre-written. And so far, James' explanation has the honor of Best Working Hypothesis on what\nthat weird thing is. Perhaps there are other candidates?\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C693C0F.2040206@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T13:24:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee-\nI think [James's] first conclusion is that if Wolfe goes through the trouble\nof describing how a letter is written and re-written then SOMETHING weird is\ngoing on. I think even Roy might agree with this conclusion though it might strain\nevery fiber in his being to admit it. I acknowledge and appreciate the effort he\nmade a month or two ago to concede, after years of discussion, that perhaps\nthere is some monkey business going on with Father Inire.\n\nJames, your second conclusion is a hypothesis to explain what weird thing is\nhappening with these letters- Incus is a woman. Perhaps part of your (perceived\non my part) frustration is that Roy is finding evidence to poke holes in your\nconclusion without offering an alternate conclusion on what is going one here\n(other than the default- nothing). Others might attack your conclusion by\ninstead by proposing more plausible explanations of their own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not really \"frustrated\" with Roy, because, knowing him on the list \nas I have for quite a while, I realize where he is coming from. And I \nknow that, often, I can't possibly get there from where I am coming from.\nI fully realize that my sort of analysis is for him sometimes like \nrunning a squirrel in front of a rottweiler and other times like \nlighting a cigarette in a flour mill.\n\nThe fact is, I didn't originally decide that Incus was a woman based \nthose letters or Hyacinth's sacrifice. I stumbled upon a few things \nWolfe was doing thematically and saw --to my surprise-- that he was \ntreating Incus consistently as female. It was only then that I knew what \nto do with the peculiarities of Incus's letters presented themselves as \nmajor lacunas, because _then_ I knew what to do with them. The textual \nclues began to present themselves (including ones I didn't denote \nbecause they are just too incidental and are part of other tricky \npuzzles). It's a very illustrative example of the idiosyncrasies of \nhuman perception. Its not just an assortment of parts that I've fitted \ntogether to see if they go (I do that often as well). It's more like a \nword in a crossword puzzle that was 1) built entirely from the other \nanswers and 2) precisely fits the definition. Consequently, because of \nthe way I came to this conclusion, if Wolfe himself told me that Incus \nwas not female, I'd call him a g d liar (not that I think that will \nhappen). It is as clearly stated in the text for me as the question of \nwhether there are inhumis on the Whorl.\n\nThis is not the sort of process that Roy can possibly respect. I \nunderstand that and I understand why. That's cool.\n\nI was fully expecting some kind of dramatic \"reveal\" regarding Incus in \n\"The Book of the Short Sun\" and was perplexed that it didn't happen -- \njust another peek-a-boo with Maytera Corn. Who is Wolfe writing these \npuzzles for anyway?\n\nUltimately, Roy's posts are more useful to me than they are to himself, \nsince he (often rather consciously) adopts the most philistine pose and \nforces me to come to him. This always helps me since it I have to strip \nall the fuzz off my arguments to get to where he is. It usually doesn't \nhelp him at all because, for the most occult puzzles in Wolfe's stories, \nyou can't get all the fuzz off them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps these others could be compared to infantrymen, engating in battle mano-a mano.\nIf so, perhaps we can see Roy as akin to a sniper. He cannot risk his acknowledged\n(by me and others including Borski and Andre-Driussi) value as a defender of the lupine\ngospel by betraying his own position and subjecting himself to the withering fire of the\nenemy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ehh...sometimes he proposes radical theories of his own. Not so much \nanymore. But it still happens. He's a cunning debater though and he is \nnot willing to undermine his own vetting of a new explanation with \nalternate theories that might move the focus off the subject at hand. He \nforces a theory to stand or fall on its own. Which is handy for \neveryone. Unfortunately, most people propose theories that they are \nlooking for help \"filling out\". And a fight with Roy early on can kill \nthat discussion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We each have our talents. If we recognize this and approach disussing Wolfe as though we\nare on the same team as opposed to working against each other, I think progress will be\nmaximized. As I see it, Roy is not shooting down your theory, he is helping to improve it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. I'm quite grateful for Roy's attention when I attract it.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My opinion is that something weird IS going on when a fictional letter is written, then\nre-written. And so far, James' explanation has the honor of Best Working Hypothesis on what\nthat weird thing is. Perhaps there are other candidates?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C693EFA.6000203@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T13:36:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (16-08-2010 13:32):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My opinion is that something weird IS going on when a fictional letter is\nwritten, then re-written. And so far, James' explanation has the honor of\nBest Working Hypothesis on what that weird thing is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must admit that when I first read 'Incus is a woman' I thought it was an \ninteresting idea. But James's explanation of his theory made me go back to \nthe text, and to be honest I don't read there anything remotely like what he \nsuggests. I'm all for considering there's something there, but I see no way \nto make that passage say 'Incus is a woman and/or is telling Fulmar that'. I \nmean, I read James's effort, but I just don't find it is a possible reading \nof what's there." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T13:53:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C693EFA.6000203@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn- The fact is, I didn't originally decide that Incus was a woman based \nthose letters or Hyacinth's sacrifice. I stumbled upon a few things \nWolfe was doing thematically and saw --to my surprise-- that he was \ntreating Incus consistently as female." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think we are in general agreement on the structure. I don't agree that the order\none uses in perceiving the structure is important (except as personal anecdote).\n \nPeople's brains work differently and I give credit to Wolfe for providing us with \nmore than one path to the solutions to his puzzles. When I see one avenue to a \nsolution it might be interesting. If a second path leads to the same place I take\nserious note. More than that and, as you say, it becomes as clear in the text as\nthat there are Inhumi on Green. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6944E9.30408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T14:02:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<568526.41209.qm@smtp823.mail.ukl.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mo Holkar wrote (16-08-2010 10:53):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 00:10 16/08/2010, Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Mo Holkar: Just on a zoological note: a fulmar is not a type of gull,\nbut a type of petrel. Apart from both being birds, fulmars and gulls\nare not related at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, they are both seabirds comprising a smaller much smaller subset\nthan that which would include owls and ostriches." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Although they are in that sense more closely culturally associated with\ngulls than are owls and ostriches, really they are no more closely\nrelated to them than those other birds are. \"Seabirds\" is not a genetic\nrelationship grouping, just a behavioural coincidence of habitat.\n\n(Of course, Wolfe may have just been intending a cultural association of\n this sort in Fulmar's name, as it might have been difficult to find an\nactual gull-based name that didn't include the obvious word \"gull\".)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Biological species on the Whorl need not be the same as here. It's perfectly\npossible for there to be a genetically close relative of gulls there that\nwould merit to have its name translated as 'fulmar'." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C69478C.7080702@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T14:13:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C693EFA.6000203@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " :" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio - I must admit that when I first read 'Incus is a woman' I \nthought it was an interesting idea. But James's explanation of his \ntheory made me go back to the text, and to be honest I don't read \nthere anything remotely like what he suggests. I'm all for considering \nthere's something there, but I see no way to make that passage say \n'Incus is a woman and/or is telling Fulmar that'. I mean, I read \nJames's effort, but I just don't find it is a possible reading of \nwhat's there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is cool. I detailed why Incus is a woman for general informational \nedification, rather than for help working out the theory. As I said, \nit's a point of fact for me--beyond proving, debating, or working out. \nAnd, as I was also surprised to learn, Incus's true sex does not affect \nthe plot much at all (except it clarifies why Silk, on the floaters, \nthought Incus was the best augur to shrive Marble after her marriage to \nHammerstone and the enigmatic references to Maytera Corn bring a smile \nto my lips).\n\nFor me, the closely related issue that Wolfe mapped the Long Sun plot \nover the life of Aristaeus is a much bigger deal. Yet, most people \ndon't have the background to see it, nor the interest to care one way or \nthe other.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<890EB50323984B8E9FCEF7DB3427DED7@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-16T14:16:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C682D94.10705@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: James Wynn " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't see what the gender of either chem has to do with anything." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Me neither. When Incus writes \"our friend Bee. Bee himself.\" and then decides \"Fulmar would be utterly thrown off the scent by _the male pronoun_\", he is not referring to the sex of any chem. But there is no reference to Bittersweet in the first email." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The message was: \"I can't make it tonight.\" The rest is chit-chat. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why not just say, \"I can't make it tonight due to Chapter duties\"? Why reference Bittersweet at all? Once again, there is no mention of Bittersweet in the first email. Yet it was considered riskier than the second where you suppose Incus is employing a code name for Bittersweet. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The first letter contained details of his mission: \"I am to go to Limna tonight... to consort with fishermen in search of a woman\". That would completely identify him if intercepted, and his calling Remora an old fool elsewhere in it would probably not help his case." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Incus is attempting to reveal herself to Fulmar, \"my dear friend\". It seems, she is in love and knows the relationship will not progress as long as Fulmar continues to consider it fraternal. (It's not \"Victor Victoria\", it's \"Yentl\".)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It may be so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "She wants to impart the information in a way that Fulmar will come to the conclusion himself. She is afraid of shocking him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's interesting to me that you presume the letters have to do with a desire to see Bittersweet's demonstration. In my experience, most readers think Incus is attempting to reveal a homosexual love for Fulmar. I hope I at least shown that that is not likely. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if Incus is in love with Fulmar, whether it is a homosexual or heterosexual love depends mainly on what Incus has under his robe, about which we can really only speculate! For the record though, I think your theory that Incus is a woman is somewhat plausible, but I wouldn't discount the possibility that he is a man.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-16T14:28:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C688C17.9050202@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nBut now there is no way for Fulmar to know who is writing the letter now. \nThat was what was so important before, no?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Incus may have expected him to figure it out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't suppose it matters that masculine pronouns are used to describe\nIncus in the list of characters at the front of the book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. That would be an utterly trivial argument. Maytera Marble is described \nas \"she\" in the list of characters in front of the book-- the prononun is \nstrictly formal. She is not physically a woman." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Chems come male and female just like bios; this is not a meaningful argument \nIMO.\n\nHowever, I don't think the use of the male pronoun is significant. Wolfe \nwould have changed it if he had clearly revealed Incus to be a woman, but he \ndoes not reveal all in the lists of characters. The description of Pas \nchanges from list to list as more is revealed.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<701458.93823.qm@smtp816.mail.ird.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Mo Holkar", "address": "lists at ukg.co.uk" }, "date": "2010-08-16T14:38:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C6944E9.30408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 15:02 16/08/2010, Antonio wrote:\nBiological species on the Whorl need not be the same as here. It's \nperfectly possible for there to be a genetically close relative of \ngulls there that would merit to have its name translated as 'fulmar'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Although that is certainly a possibility, it would seem to render \nvain any attempt to infer meaning from any of the character names.\n\nFor example, if I was trying to persuade people that Silk was not \nreally connected to Tussah, I might hypothesize that on the Whorl, \ntussah moths are not related to conventional silk moths. In fact, on \nthe Whorl \"silk\" might not mean moth caterpillar fibre at all -- it \nmight be spun from the soft underfur of nocturnal primates.\n\nPersonally, I feel it would be unlike Wolfe to \"cheat\" by secretly \ndeparting from Earthly taxonomy in a deliberately misleading way like \nthat, in order to obscure an implied name-link: if these hidden \nname-meanings were really intended, they must have been intended to \nbe logically comprehensible to the careful (Earth-based) reader.\n\nBut that is just my feeling: you could easily be right.\n\nbest wishes,\n\nMo\n\n\n# ~ # ~ #\n\nWolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe\nhttp://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/ " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C696BA7.8050505@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T16:47:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<890EB50323984B8E9FCEF7DB3427DED7@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 8/16/2010 9:16 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nGerry Quinn -- Well, if Incus is in love with Fulmar, whether it is a \nhomosexual or heterosexual love depends mainly on what Incus has under \nhis robe, about which we can really only speculate! For the record \nthough, I think your theory that Incus is a woman is somewhat \nplausible, but I wouldn't discount the possibility that he is a man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I see your point.\nBut for me, I see proofs (which, granted, are of a nature that you might \nnot find compelling) that --without these letters -- would have strongly \ninclined me to believe that Wolfe was thematically associating a \nhomosexual Incus as a female. (And I would have been embarrassed for the \nman.) \"Soldier of the Mist\" inclines me to think he would not be so \nnaive. And gratefully, we do have these letters and the sacrifice of \nHyacinth that cause me to *not* imagine Maytera Corn as the Prolocutor \nprancing around in female drag calling himself \"Hymencallis\".\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<003401cb3d77$c4d9c600$d1d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-08-16T19:18:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C690897.8060409@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:45 CDT this date, James Wynn wrote:\n Roy,\n\nI don't think you and I are going to come to an agreement about this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Agreed.\n\nAt 08:25 CDT this date, he wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Consequently, because of\nthe way I came to this conclusion, if Wolfe himself told me that Incus\nwas not female, I'd call him a g d liar (not that I think that will\nhappen). It is as clearly stated in the text for me as the question of\nwhether there are inhumis on the Whorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And at 09:14 CDT this date he wrote:\nThis is cool. I detailed why Incus is a woman for general informational\nedification, rather than for help working out the theory. As I said,\nit's a point of fact for me--beyond proving, debating, or working out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nIf nothing that I, or Wolfe, or anyone else *can* say can change your mind,\nwell, that speaks for itself. There is nothing left to say.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<704814.2220.qm@web81402.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-08-16T19:20:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<003401cb3d77$c4d9c600$d1d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " It is as clearly stated in the text for me as the question of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "whether there are inhumis on the Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd like to hear the answer to this one!\n\n???????? ? ? \n\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\n\n\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Mon, 8/16/10, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\n\nFrom: Roy C. Lackey \nSubject: Re: (urth) Patera Incus\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, August 16, 2010, 12:18 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 04:45 CDT this date, James Wynn wrote:\n???Roy,\n\nI don't think you and I are going to come to an agreement about this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Agreed.\n\nAt 08:25 CDT this date, he wrote:\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Consequently, because of\nthe way I came to this conclusion, if Wolfe himself told me that Incus\nwas not female, I'd call him a g d liar (not that I think that will\nhappen). It is as clearly stated in the text for me as the question of\nwhether there are inhumis on the Whorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "And at 09:14 CDT this date he wrote:\nThis is cool. I detailed why Incus is a woman for general informational\nedification, rather than for help working out the theory. As I said,\nit's a point of fact for me--beyond proving, debating, or working out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "[snip]\n\nIf nothing that I, or Wolfe, or anyone else *can* say can change your mind,\nwell, that speaks for itself. There is nothing left to say.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C699CB7.6000408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T20:16:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<003401cb3d77$c4d9c600$d1d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 8/16/2010 2:18 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nIf nothing that I, or Wolfe, or anyone else*can* say can change your mind,\nwell, that speaks for itself. There is nothing left to say." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe has said it already in the text in many various ways. So, \nproperly, you should say \"anything *more* Wolfe can say\".\n\nAs for you, Roy, the majority of the most important proofs that Incus is \nfemale are philosophically beyond your willingness to look at, let alone \ndispute. So there ya are.\n\nAnyone else? If someone were prepared to discuss the mythology of \nAristaeus as detailed by Pindar, Herodotus' History of the Persian War, \nPlutarch's Lives, and Robert Graves' \"The Greek Myths\" (all important \nreferences for Wolfe at least through the 80s and 90s) then I suppose we \ncould have a starting place to dispute. Then we could move on to \nHesphaestus, Apollo, and Orion and the other things.\n\nBut if it's just a matter of going round and round on the subject of \nwhether it means anything that Incus underlined \"a woman\" and \"myself\" \nin the letter to Fulmar (as you and I surely would do), or whether all \nthe associations between the word \"hymen\" and Incus's name is mere \nnephelomancy, well, what's the point? _I'm right on this issue. You are \nwrong._ You just don't have the background in certain specific items of \nliterature to see that you are wrong. And it makes you spit nails if \nanyone says that a lack of anything besides the text itself would make \none of Wolfe's puzzles unsolvable beyond any doubt.\n\nIf I tell you \"This artwork of splotches contains a picture of Jesus\" \nand your only answer is \"I don't see it and it's not there\" , then where \nare we going to go from that? I'd rather discuss something productively. \nHow about the fact that Pike's Ghost is the Rajan in dream-travel what \nthat would mean about the old patera's true heritage? Or that Rose's \nhands belonged to Molybdenum. I'm prepared to argue about that without \nreference to anything but the text.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T20:33:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Patera Incus", "in_reply_to": "<4C699CB7.6000408@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"If nothing that I, or Wolfe, or anyone else *can* say can change your mind,\nwell, that speaks for itself. There is nothing left to say.\"\n \nIs this one of those \"Philistine poses\" that was mentioned? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }