{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5709", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5709, "subject": "The Two Coins", "messages": 63, "voices": 11, "first": "2010-08-13T16:42:33+00:00", "last": "2010-08-18T06:20:31+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T16:42:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn- I just thought that, since Tzadkiel is a hierogrammate, that androgynous or feminine \ncould apply to him as well, combined with his ship. It would mean the coin came from \nsomewhere else, and might have some meaning." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nRyan I have long wondered about the source of Talos' false coin. I think it gets too much attention\nto be meaningless. I don't think we are meant to think it comes from the Hierodules and depicts \nTzadkiel for a number of reasons. \n \nFirst, Tzadkiel does not really show a mixing of male and female traits. At some\ntimes he is very male and at other times very female. \n \nSecond, I think the falseness is intended to imply evil or badness in some manner. I think Tzadkiel \nand all from Yesod are meant to be seen as good. As Apheta says, \"our gold is true gold...\". \n \nThird, the Hierodules observes the Play at the House Absolute. Baldanders' rampage did not allow for \nthe collection of \"dropsies\" there. We are not privy to other performances so I must guess the false\ncoin came from the performance at Ctesiphon's Cross.\n \nAs Hethor was present at Ctesiphon's Cross and he can generally be considered to be a bad guy, I think\nhe is the most likely source. As to the significance of the coin and connection to Vodalus, I think I'll\nhave to devote a new thread if I am to post my views on it. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0BC8CD2F-5F65-4E78-BB86-62C204079667@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T16:58:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 13, 2010, at 12:42 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nRyan I have long wondered about the source of Talos' false coin. I think it gets too much attention\nto be meaningless. I don't think we are meant to think it comes from the Hierodules and depicts \nTzadkiel for a number of reasons. \n\nFirst, Tzadkiel does not really show a mixing of male and female traits. At some\ntimes he is very male and at other times very female. \n\nSecond, I think the falseness is intended to imply evil or badness in some manner. I think Tzadkiel \nand all from Yesod are meant to be seen as good. As Apheta says, \"our gold is true gold...\". \n\nThird, the Hierodules observes the Play at the House Absolute. Baldanders' rampage did not allow for \nthe collection of \"dropsies\" there. We are not privy to other performances so I must guess the false\ncoin came from the performance at Ctesiphon's Cross.\n\nAs Hethor was present at Ctesiphon's Cross and he can generally be considered to be a bad guy, I think\nhe is the most likely source. As to the significance of the coin and connection to Vodalus, I think I'll\nhave to devote a new thread if I am to post my views on it. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Two more curiosities. When they are interrupted by Hethor in the field while dividing the dropsies, Talos says they have been reduced to single orichalks, Dorcas offers to take them in exchange for one of her aes. She does this unexpectedly to Severian.\n\nHowever, the coin in the mausoleum from Vodalus is a gold chrisos as far as Severian can tell. He tells us he knows the difference, and that he's handled aes and orichalks enough to know them well, but he only knew gold chrisos vaguely when he got his from Vodalus.\n\nThe second coin, the one Talos gives him at the end of Citadel, is clearly a match to the one in Severian's hand. It has the same smooth, greasy texture, and Severian finds this curious. I have to say that it's worth mentioning Severian's monologue about there being multiple iterations of Severian, and that time travel is no small secret to him any longer.\n\nRegardless of whose face it is on the coin, is it possible that this is two instances of the same chrisos? If so, could Severian have been watching himself in the play that night?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T16:59:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "<0BC8CD2F-5F65-4E78-BB86-62C204079667@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey- BTW, if I had to guess who had dropped a false coin at the play that night,\nit would be Hildegrin. Somewhere, IIRC, he said that he had been keeping an\neye on Sev for Vodalus, and Vodalus was shown to pass bad coins." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree with Roy. Hildegren is a prime suspect. Perhaps better than Hethor because he is \nintimately associated with Vodalus at the beginning of the story. Hethor is only tangentially\nassociated with Vodalus and at the end of the story.\n \nThe one reason I like Hethor as a candidate better is that he has more potential for being a\n\"big picture\" stellar-level player in the game. Why would Wolfe devote so much attention with\nthe false coin to ultimately point only to Hildegren? (unless I am underestimating the Badger's\nimportance?) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T17:14:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn-" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "the coin in the mausoleum from Vodalus is a gold chrisos as far as Severian can tell. \nHe tells us he knows the difference, and that he's handled aes and orichalks enough to \nknow them well, but he only knew gold chrisos vaguely when he got his from Vodalus.\nThe second coin, the one Talos gives him at the end of Citadel, is clearly a match to \nthe one in Severian's hand." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ryan I think that is an excellent point. Does it suggest the false coin was not a dropsie \nbut comes from the stack of chrisos that was provided to Dr. Talos by the Old Autarch and/or\nFather Inire? If so, that raises some interesting possibilities and interpretations.\n \nTo me the essential question is the symbolism. What other character is Wolfe trying to tell us \nis as false and \"bad\" as Vodalus? (perhaps simply Talos, himself? I dunno). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T18:47:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wynn- What are these coins made of that feels so greasy? I was thinking polished brass, but I don't know.\n\nAny metallurgists out there?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMy guess is a lead alloy, which would have the golden color, the weight and heft of gold, but soft\nand greasy feeling to the touch. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T19:54:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan- If so, could Severian have been watching himself in the play that night?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy- Possible, but why should he? Idle curiosity? Idol curiosity? Why would he\nhave dropped a coin? He couldn't have been surprised at anything that\nhappened. And if he had dropped it on purpose, why leave a counterfeit coin?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYeah, no way. Severian is surely the real deal. Isn't he?\n \nAnyway, I have a memory from somewhere in UotNS of a coin with Severian's scarred\nface on it. Maybe the assassin with the poisoned blade had it? (That's Agia in disguse of course ;-))\nIs that a false memory? Well, no text here. Sorry. Have to check later.\n \nHere is my question. Severian sees an androgyne's face on the coin. A few chapters later\nhe meets an androgyne running the House Azure. Did Wolfe expect a first time reader\nto catch the connection? It becomes pretty easy on second read.\n \n(perhaps I should amend my earlier, tongue-in-cheek suggestion and propose that Wolfe\nhas disdain for his first-time readers. After that we are okay in his book) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T20:06:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brass used in counterfeit coins seems to make them feel greasy. At least\nthat's what Mark Twain says:\n\n\"I told him I had an old slick counterfeit quarter that warn't no good\nbecause the brass showed through the silver a little, and it wouldn't pass\nnohow, even if the brass didn't show, because it was so slick it felt\ngreasy, and so that would tell on it every time.\" --Huckleberry Finn,\nChapter 4" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 2:47 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wynn- What are these coins made of that feels so greasy? I was\nthinking polished brass, but I don't know.\n\nAny metallurgists out there?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My guess is a lead alloy, which would have the golden color, the weight and\nheft of gold, but soft\nand greasy feeling to the touch.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T20:22:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jack Smith: Brass used in counterfeit coins seems to make them feel greasy. At least\nthat's what Mark Twain says:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"I told him I had an old slick counterfeit quarter that warn't no good\nbecause the brass showed through the silver a little, and it wouldn't pass>\nnohow, even if the brass didn't show, because it was so slick it felt\ngreasy, and so that would tell on it every time.\" --Huckleberry Finn,\nChapter 4" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thank you Jack!! For so many years I knew I had seen the slick, greasy\nfake coin reference from somewhere else and you have found it. That is\ndefinitely IT. Two bits says that's where Wolfe got it from. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T11:14:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nAnyway, I have a memory from somewhere in UotNS of a coin with Severian's scarred\nface on it. Maybe the assassin with the poisoned blade had it? (That's Agia in disguse of course ;-))\nIs that a false memory? Well, no text here. Sorry. Have to check later." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This exchange, perhaps: chapter XXX, when Sev's in the Chowder Pot:\nHe examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. \"Gold all right. Looks\na trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. Don't\nsuppose you noticed.\"\n\"No,\" I said. \"I never thought of it.\"\n\nThis is one of Idas's chrisos." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T13:17:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis: chapter XXX, when Sev's in the Chowder Pot:\nHe examined it, bit it, and gave it back to me. \"Gold all right. Looks\na trifle like you, 'cept he seems to have got himself cut up. Don't\nsuppose you noticed.\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"No,\" I said. \"I never thought of it.\"\nThis is one of Idas's chrisos." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAh, yes, that's the coin with Severian's scarred face I was thinking of.\n \nThanks, Tony!\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T13:40:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: \nNo, there was positive ID from Ouen's locket, and lots of supporting \nevidence. Also the narrator plays detective and finds this out with no \nparticular reason for us to doubt it, which IMO is a literary signal that \nthis is canon.\nThe hypothesis that Dorcas is Severian's grandmother has distinctive \ncharacteristics that many such hypotheses lack..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That Severian seems to be actively investigating his family tree does add\na somewhat unique aspect to this puzzle. Boatman as grandfather, Ouen as \nfather and Holy Katharine maid as mother joins in this aspect. (I must\nwonder why the Boatman, alone, remains unnamed).\n \nPerhaps we were only meant to identify these four guys and and no other family \nmembers. Perhaps identifying sister Severa was always meant as a red herring.\n \nI admit I'd rather assume Wolfe is not so generous to his readers with \nClupea rosea. Especially since I find plausible candidates for sister, \naunt and cousins. But no way to know for sure. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T14:13:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- ...but there was certainly some explicit detective work on Severian's \npart afterwards. I don't think anything similar occurs in most cases, so I \nthink the Dorcas thing has a particular authenticity that most such ideas \nlack." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Gerry, I see you use the phrase, \"most cases\". Other than detective work by Severian, \nwhat other aspect of a familial clue in BotNS would convey authenticty to you? Perhaps\nyou can give some examples of other authentic cases? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<24B72F1F9E2E4C6D8DC1B9B954E893BA@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-14T14:21:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn- ...but there was certainly some explicit detective work on \nSeverian's\npart afterwards. I don't think anything similar occurs in most cases, so \nI\nthink the Dorcas thing has a particular authenticity that most such ideas\nlack." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, I see you use the phrase, \"most cases\". Other than detective work \nby Severian,\nwhat other aspect of a familial clue in BotNS would convey authenticty to \nyou? Perhaps\nyou can give some examples of other authentic cases?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was referring to BotNS puzzles in general. I cannot think of any other \nfamilial clues that I give any real credence to.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<06D33C4C-322A-41D9-B394-D12EDEA4D443@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T14:39:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "<24B72F1F9E2E4C6D8DC1B9B954E893BA@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Aug 14, 2010, at 10:21 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nGerry, I see you use the phrase, \"most cases\". Other than detective work by Severian,\nwhat other aspect of a familial clue in BotNS would convey authenticty to you? Perhaps\nyou can give some examples of other authentic cases?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I was referring to BotNS puzzles in general. I cannot think of any other familial clues that I give any real credence to.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What do you make of Little Severian?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C66C34B.2030400@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T16:24:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "<06D33C4C-322A-41D9-B394-D12EDEA4D443@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 08/14/2010 09:39 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n What do you make of Little Severian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Briquettes.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T17:43:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn:\nNo, there was positive ID from Ouen's locket, and lots of supporting\nevidence. Also the narrator plays detective and finds this out with no\nparticular reason for us to doubt it, which IMO is a literary signal that\nthis is canon.\nThe hypothesis that Dorcas is Severian's grandmother has distinctive\ncharacteristics that many such hypotheses lack..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That Severian seems to be actively investigating his family tree does add\na somewhat unique aspect to this puzzle. Boatman as grandfather, Ouen as\nfather and Holy Katharine maid as mother joins in this aspect. (I must\nwonder why the Boatman, alone, remains unnamed)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think there is confirmation that Holy Katherine and Mom are the\nsame person." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T17:58:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn- What do you make of Little Severian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a family tree which allows Little Severian to be 3rd cousin\n(or maybe 2nd cousin once removed? My American folk kinship rules are\na bit rusty) to Severian.\n \nIt requires a couple major stretches but I can post the idea if you want. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C670373.5020507@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T20:58:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry Quinn:\nNo, there was positive ID from Ouen's locket, and lots of supporting\nevidence. Also the narrator plays detective and finds this out with no\nparticular reason for us to doubt it, which IMO is a literary signal that\nthis is canon.\nThe hypothesis that Dorcas is Severian's grandmother has distinctive\ncharacteristics that many such hypotheses lack..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That Severian seems to be actively investigating his family tree does add\na somewhat unique aspect to this puzzle. Boatman as grandfather, Ouen as\nfather and Holy Katharine maid as mother joins in this aspect. (I must\nwonder why the Boatman, alone, remains unnamed)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think there is confirmation that Holy Katherine and Mom are the\nsame person." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can't help feeling that the question of who is who is just not very \ninteresting unless 'who' turns out to be someone we know for more than 2 \npages. (Corollary: if his mother is just Holy Katharine's template or \ndoesn't even enter the story at all, then...)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C673C50.3050607@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T01:01:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "<0BC8CD2F-5F65-4E78-BB86-62C204079667@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\nRegardless of whose face it is on the coin, is it possible that this is\ntwo instances of the same chrisos? If so, could Severian have been\nwatching himself in the play that night?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is. I have trouble with different identical chrisos." } ] }, { "message_id": "<7454AA9944C644728D65CA2005087E5A@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-15T10:10:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "<06D33C4C-322A-41D9-B394-D12EDEA4D443@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ryan Dunn\" \nOn Aug 14, 2010, at 10:21 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Gerry, I see you use the phrase, \"most cases\". Other than detective work \nby Severian,\nwhat other aspect of a familial clue in BotNS would convey authenticty \nto you? Perhaps\nyou can give some examples of other authentic cases?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I was referring to BotNS puzzles in general. I cannot think of any other \nfamilial clues that I give any real credence to." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What do you make of Little Severian?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just a kid of that name? What else should we make of him? He is hardly an \niteration of Severian in another existence, because he lives in Severian's \nUrth. His family don't have any obvious connection to Severian.. and if \nthey were distant relatives, so what? Perhaps his name is simply an \nopportunity for Wolfe to point out that sometimes Severian's have sisters \ncalled Severa, although Idon't think he clearly indicates anywhere that \nSeverian has a sister.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-15T10:13:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nGerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The hypothesis that Dorcas is Severian's grandmother has distinctive\ncharacteristics that many such hypotheses lack..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That Severian seems to be actively investigating his family tree does add\na somewhat unique aspect to this puzzle. Boatman as grandfather, Ouen as\nfather and Holy Katharine maid as mother joins in this aspect. (I must\nwonder why the Boatman, alone, remains unnamed)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think there is confirmation that Holy Katherine and Mom are the\nsame person." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It has some plausibility, I think, because of the similarity of names, and \nbecause her crime was apparently somewhat minor. Maybe she was sent to \nserve the torturers for a spell, rather than be excruciated by them.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C684A7B.7050102@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-15T20:13:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Coins", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Brass is also very greasy, so lead and brass would make a good false \ngold, I suppose.\n\nI recall reading in a Flashman novel of India that British troopers \ndisdained the official cavalry weapons because they were of brass and so \nslippery they would \"turn in the hand.\" They bought local instead." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff Wynn- What are these coins made of that feels so greasy? I was thinking polished brass, but I don't know.\n\nAny metallurgists out there?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nMy guess is a lead alloy, which would have the golden color, the weight and heft of gold, but soft\nand greasy feeling to the touch. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C687C78.5030807@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T23:47:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/15/2010 5:13 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nGerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The hypothesis that Dorcas is Severian's grandmother has distinctive\ncharacteristics that many such hypotheses lack..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That Severian seems to be actively investigating his family tree does\nadd\na somewhat unique aspect to this puzzle. Boatman as grandfather, Ouen as\nfather and Holy Katharine maid as mother joins in this aspect. (I must\nwonder why the Boatman, alone, remains unnamed)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't think there is confirmation that Holy Katherine and Mom are the\nsame person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It has some plausibility, I think, because of the similarity of names,\nand because her crime was apparently somewhat minor. Maybe she was sent\nto serve the torturers for a spell, rather than be excruciated by them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I guess Mom Catherine might be loose somewhere, maybe even back with the \nPelerines, but the Holy Katharine maid retains her maid-like appearance \nfor at least 15-20 years. This kind of youth for a human being is \nunknown in the Book." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6887E0.8030108@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T00:35:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C687C78.5030807@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 8/15/2010 5:13 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nGerry Quinn:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The hypothesis that Dorcas is Severian's grandmother has\ndistinctive characteristics that many such hypotheses lack..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That Severian seems to be actively investigating his family tree\ndoes add a somewhat unique aspect to this puzzle. Boatman as\ngrandfather, Ouen as father and Holy Katharine maid as mother joins\nin this aspect. (I must wonder why the Boatman, alone, remains\nunnamed)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I don't think there is confirmation that Holy Katherine and Mom are\nthe same person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It has some plausibility, I think, because of the similarity of names,\nand because her crime was apparently somewhat minor. Maybe she was\nsent to serve the torturers for a spell, rather than be excruciated by\nthem." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I guess Mom Catherine might be loose somewhere, maybe even back with the\n Pelerines," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think people go to great lengths to interpret what Severian says about\nbirths and children in Matachin tower. As far as I read it, he simply says\nthat they deliver, nurse and keep (all as needed) the children of the women\nwho go there. They deliver them if they are born there (they could be very\nyoung when the woman is taken there, or she could have no one else to take\ncare of the child), they get a wet nurse if the woman cannot breastfeed, and\nthey keep the child if the woman dies and there is no one else who can claim\nit. Now, he doesn't mention any of those ifs, but I think he doesn't because\nthey're implied. I read it as him just saying what they do [when the need to\ndo something arises]. Why would they keep the children of women who could\nkeep them? Why would they get a wet nurse if the mother could breastfeed the\nchild? Why would they do a c-section if a natural birth was possible? All\nthose questions are answerable, but the answers they could have are never so\nmuch as hinted at, and they would be the kind of thing that one expects to\nbe mentioned ('We let no woman breastfeed / give natual birth / keep her\nchild after she's released because [insert esoteric reason]'). So I think\nhe's simply ommitting the ifs becuase they should be obvious to the reader\n(not us but the urthian reader).\n\nThe relevance is that, in that scheme of things, barring some unknown\nreason, if Severian's mother had been released from the Guild then he should\nhave gone with her. It's not hard to come up with reasons why she would be\nforced to leave him there / not forced to take him with her, but again, no\nsuch reasons are mentioned. It's not hard. But I'd expect something in the\ntext to back it up, not just generic speculation. So I think Severian's\nmother never left the Tower, unless she managed to escape." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "but the Holy Katharine maid retains her maid-like appearance for at least\n15-20 years. This kind of youth for a human being is unknown in the\nBook." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Isn't she just a dummy?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T01:52:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C6887E0.8030108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn- I guess Mom Catherine might be loose somewhere, maybe even back with the \nPelerines, but the Holy Katharine maid retains her maid-like appearance \nfor at least 15-20 years. This kind of youth for a human being is \nunknown in the Book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think one of the main theories about Catherine/Holy Katharine maid and her enduring\nyouth involve her residing in a tower (probably Valeria's) off the Atrium of Time, and\ntime time travel explains her agelessness. The dark-haired, olive-skinned, oval-faced \nwoman in a pale gown Severian sees on the Path of Air is probably related.\n \nAnother theory is that there are khaibits involved. Maybe a new one each year. Somehow \nthe fictional Contessa Carina and her maids (all with beheaded saint names) might be \ninvolved. I think Roy doesn't like this one because Catherine is armiger height and\nthe text only mentions exultant women having khaibits. But House Azure khaibits are\nshorter than exultants and we don't know how tall the source material for a khaibit\nof catherine might have been.\n \nMy own theory sort of combines all these, with the addition of the fresh corpse that \nSeverian sees in the grave in the very first chapter. She has dark hair and a pale gown. \nI take her livid face to be the result of a device well-described but otherwise not notably\nintegrated into the plot, Allowin's Necklace.\n \nWebster says livid can mean a few things-\n1 : discolored by bruising : black-and-blue \n2 : ashen, pallid \n3 : reddish ", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T02:05:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " On 8/15/2010 8:52 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJames Wynn- I guess Mom Catherine might be loose somewhere, maybe even back with the\nPelerines, but the Holy Katharine maid retains her maid-like appearance\nfor at least 15-20 years. This kind of youth for a human being is\nunknown in the Book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This was another JW...or a cognate if Josh was right.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C68A088.30100@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T02:20:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C6887E0.8030108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/15/2010 7:35 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nbut the Holy Katharine maid retains her maid-like appearance for at least\n15-20 years. This kind of youth for a human being is unknown in the\nBook." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Isn't she just a dummy?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In SHADOW XI, Severian details how he has helped haul out and stow away \nthe props each year, and is familiar with their true nature: the snakes \nand flowers on the wheel are paper, the blade of execution is wood and \ntinsel. But he does not know who she is or where she comes from, so \nshe's not just another prop.\n\nShe could be a salvaged animatronic or full robot in partial disrepair \n(she seems to have minimal mobilty and vocabulary). But she also seems \nto resemble Severian's mother.\n\nEw... could it be some kind of \"House of Wax\" scenario?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C68A183.1050700@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T02:25:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C689CFE.9060605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/15/2010 9:05 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 8/15/2010 8:52 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn- I guess Mom Catherine might be loose somewhere, maybe\neven back with the\nPelerines, but the Holy Katharine maid retains her maid-like appearance\nfor at least 15-20 years. This kind of youth for a human being is\nunknown in the Book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This was another JW...or a cognate if Josh was right." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I wrote that, rather than James; he should not have to take the blame." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T03:59:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C68A183.1050700@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- the blade of execution is wood and tinsel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes a thin wooden batten with lightweight tinsel.\n \nYet when Severian first takes up the sword, \"It was very heavy\".\n \nWhen he lifted the sword, \"I feared it would overbalance me\".\n \nUsing all his available strength, he sends the \"false\" blade down. \nFor an instant it seemed to meet resistance then thudded into the\nblock, which fell into two. The maid's head, all bloodied, \ntumbled forward..\n \nI used to think it was just Severian being drunk. Now...\n \nWell, there are certainly some theatrics going on. I just can't\nbe sure which audience is being fooled. Would the guild really \nuse fake blood from a wax head as their most sacred chrism? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C68C108.9000604@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T04:39:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/15/2010 10:59 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- the blade of execution is wood and tinsel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes a thin wooden batten with lightweight tinsel.\n\nYet when Severian first takes up the sword, \"It was very heavy\".\n\nWhen he lifted the sword, \"I feared it would overbalance me\".\n\nUsing all his available strength, he sends the \"false\" blade down.\nFor an instant it seemed to meet resistance then thudded into the\nblock, which fell into two. The maid's head, all bloodied,\ntumbled forward..\n\nI used to think it was just Severian being drunk. Now...\n\nWell, there are certainly some theatrics going on. I just can't\nbe sure which audience is being fooled. Would the guild really\nuse fake blood from a wax head as their most sacred chrism? \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's no indication or reason that the *blood* is fake. It might be \nanimal blood if no recently dispatched clients or willing donors were \navailable at the time.\n\nSeverian can't have been completely fooled into really beheading a \nperson because he's supposed to turn the blade aside to *avoid* striking \nthe maid, and he's not drunk because the feasting comes after. But the \nimportance of the day is not to be underestimated in its effect on human \nperception; as I recall from my wedding day, that little ring was heavy \nlike a barbell and slick as an eel." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T06:34:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C68C108.9000604@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the maid comes back to life after the ritual beheading. If she was\nreally beheaded, she would really have to be resurrected too. I don't\nthink the text indicates real resurrection in this instance." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 12:39 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 8/15/2010 10:59 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Jeff Wilson- the blade of execution is wood and tinsel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes a thin wooden batten with lightweight tinsel.\n\nYet when Severian first takes up the sword, \"It was very heavy\".\n\nWhen he lifted the sword, \"I feared it would overbalance me\".\n\nUsing all his available strength, he sends the \"false\" blade down.\nFor an instant it seemed to meet resistance then thudded into the\nblock, which fell into two. The maid's head, all bloodied,\ntumbled forward..\n\nI used to think it was just Severian being drunk. Now...\n\nWell, there are certainly some theatrics going on. I just can't\nbe sure which audience is being fooled. Would the guild really\nuse fake blood from a wax head as their most sacred chrism?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There's no indication or reason that the *blood* is fake. It might be\nanimal blood if no recently dispatched clients or willing donors were\navailable at the time.\n\nSeverian can't have been completely fooled into really beheading a person\nbecause he's supposed to turn the blade aside to *avoid* striking the maid,\nand he's not drunk because the feasting comes after. But the importance of\nthe day is not to be underestimated in its effect on human perception; as I\nrecall from my wedding day, that little ring was heavy like a barbell and\nslick as an eel.\n\n--\nJeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C691CAC.9090307@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T11:10:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C68A183.1050700@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (16-08-2010 03:25):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/15/2010 9:05 PM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/15/2010 8:52 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "James Wynn- I guess Mom Catherine might be loose somewhere, maybe\neven back with the\nPelerines, but the Holy Katharine maid retains her maid-like appearance\nfor at least 15-20 years. This kind of youth for a human being is\nunknown in the Book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This was another JW...or a cognate if Josh was right." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I wrote that, rather than James; he should not have to take the blame." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If only we could get other people to tuse sensible quoting, such confusion \nwould not occur.\n\nI can't understand what the difficulty is." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T13:41:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C691CAC.9090307@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Severian can't have been completely fooled into really beheading a person\nbecause he's supposed to turn the blade aside to *avoid* striking the maid,\nand he's not drunk because the feasting comes after. But the importance of\nthe day is not to be underestimated in its effect on human perception; as I\nrecall from my wedding day, that little ring was heavy like a barbell and\nslick as an eel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think what Severian was supposed to do is not quite confirmed as happening during\nhis ascension ceremony. Everything is a bit wobbly and thus suspicious. It may well be \nthat Wolfe is only hoping to show that Severian is as apprehensive in becoming a torturer \nas Jeff was to becoming married. (I will not pursue that line of thought any further ;- ). \nBut perhaps there is more to it. I find it possible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jack Smith- And the maid comes back to life after the ritual beheading. If she was\nreally beheaded, she would really have to be resurrected too. I don't\nthink the text indicates real resurrection in this instance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJack this is not my theory, at least in origin. I think maybe it was Dave Tallman's from\na few years back. But if I understand it correctly there is no resurrection here. A new\nkhaibit maid derived from Catherine/Contessa Carina is sacrificed each year. Perhaps Solange,\nthen Lybe, then Kyneburga....\n \nIt has some ring of truth to me. As mentioned before I think the use of fake blood as a chrism\nfor such an important event rings false. Jeff's suggestion of bottled blood or animal blood is\nmore realistic than dyed water, but still fake. \n \nIf the animal guys go so far as to take a bear-sow as a bride to ascend in their guild is it so\nmuch more unbelievable that the torturers perform a real beheading for theirs? Sure both rituals \ncould be purely fake and symbolic. But why choose the boring answer when an outrageous and shocking\nanswer will serve as well? This is SF and F is it not? We have half-human half-animals and khaibits\nin the text. Why not use all themes to full capacity?\n \n \nThis is a true story.\n \nWhen I was about 14 I was playing centerfield on a baseball diamond which bordered a ravine. A lot of \ntall trees were arching over the field, shading me. In the middle of the game, everyone on both teams \nsuddenly stopped, and started shouting and pointing to a spot over my head. I looked up and could see \nonly branches and leaves. Then I heard a loud roar and what sounded like a gush of flames. I was stunned \ninto confusion as, depite my best efforts to suppress it, the thought came to my head....\"...dragon?\" I \nran to to the infield with mixed curiousity and mild fear, and saw that hovering just above the trees \nwas a very low-flying hot air balloon.\n \nWould it have been different if I had been a character in a Wolfe book? When faced with the choice of\na hot air balloon tent or magical flying cathedral in science fiction, is it the same as the real world?\nMust we always think the prosaic answer is more likely? If one purpose of SF is to stun and amaze us I \nthink the opposite is true. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6943EF.2090700@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T13:58:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (16-08-2010 14:41):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If the animal guys go so far as to take a bear-sow as a bride to ascend\nin their guild is it so much more unbelievable that the torturers perform\na real beheading for theirs? Sure both rituals could be purely fake and\nsymbolic. But why choose the boring answer when an outrageous and\nshocking answer will serve as well? This is SF and F is it not? We have\nhalf-human half-animals and khaibits in the text. Why not use all themes\nto full capacity?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's unnecessary cruelty to an innocent human being. Not the kind of thing\nthat makes sense for me coming from the Guild." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Must we always think the prosaic answer is more likely?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not at all." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T14:16:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C6943EF.2090700@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Aug 16, 2010, at 9:58 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nIf the animal guys go so far as to take a bear-sow as a bride to ascend\nin their guild is it so much more unbelievable that the torturers perform\na real beheading for theirs? Sure both rituals could be purely fake and\nsymbolic. But why choose the boring answer when an outrageous and\nshocking answer will serve as well? This is SF and F is it not? We have\nhalf-human half-animals and khaibits in the text. Why not use all themes\nto full capacity?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's unnecessary cruelty to an innocent human being. Not the kind of thing\nthat makes sense for me coming from the Guild." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The torturers are described as Seekers for Truth and Penitence. I don't see bloodlust or psychopathy as parts of their guild.\n\nThey know the cost of holding their station. They are outcasts in their own Citadel. Spit on in the slums, feared and hated in the towers.\n\nThat they continue their practice at all is a signifier of honor to it's import and not the maniacal musings of brutes who would behead an innocent woman in order to elevate one of their own.\n\nThat's my view anyhow.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C694976.4010500@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T14:21:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C68A088.30100@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (16-08-2010 03:20):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/15/2010 7:35 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "but the Holy Katharine maid retains her maid-like appearance for at\nleast 15-20 years. This kind of youth for a human being is unknown in\nthe Book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Isn't she just a dummy?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In SHADOW XI, Severian details how he has helped haul out and stow away\nthe props each year, and is familiar with their true nature: the snakes\nand flowers on the wheel are paper, the blade of execution is wood and\ntinsel. But he does not know who she is or where she comes from, so she's\nnot just another prop.\n\nShe could be a salvaged animatronic or full robot in partial disrepair\n(she seems to have minimal mobilty and vocabulary)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can even picture Hammerstone telling people to do some similar trick on\nhim, just for the kicks." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But she also seems to resemble Severian's mother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In that she's not blonde... we know so little of Severian's mother. Heck, my\ncurrent next-desk coworker resembles 3 or 4 other girls I've seen somewhere.\n\nMy impression regarding Wolfe's 'puzzles' is the following: everything may \nwell have significance, but if some line on inquiry doesn't yield broadly \nconvincing results in a relatively short time, then it's probably a dead-end." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T15:08:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C694976.4010500@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Marques- It's unnecessary cruelty to an innocent human being. Not the kind of thing\nthat makes sense for me coming from the Guild." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn- The torturers are described as Seekers for Truth and Penitence... That they continue \ntheir practice at all is a signifier of honor to it's import and not the maniacal musings of \nbrutes who would behead an innocent woman in order to elevate one of their own." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe admiration both of you share for the guild as it existed at the beginning of the story is not\nshared by Severian. Earlier he parrots the justifications and rote reasons for the necessity of \nhis guild but by the end has decided to reform it. \n \nDo not be deceived by the teachings of Master Gurloes, Jack Bauer and Dick Cheney. Torture IS \nunnecessary and cruel and so is the guild which beheads Holy Katharine each year. \n(sorry no more politics, I swear ;- ))\n \nRyan, I'm not so sure that guild would agree with your definition of \"an innocent woman\". First, it\nwould appear that Catherine (as Severian's mother) is not innocent or she wouldn't have been given to \nthe torturers.\n \nSecond, the implication is that khaibits are being sacrificed each year. Khaibits are clones. How \nexpendable are they considered in the Commonwealth? Every cell in your body is a clone of the other.\nYet we are willing to sacrifice the lives of millions of our clones in male masturbation, \nproviding blood samples, amputation and other activities which benefit the greater source material.\n \nIf you were the unfaithful exultant Contessa Catherine and offered a 15-20 year reprieve from torture \nin exchange for providing yearly khaibit donations for ceremonial sacrifice, would you do it? \n \nWhether khaibits could be raised to willingly sacrifice themselves for the greater good of their mistress\nis hardly a question worth asking, given our human history full of willing human sacrifices to the gods, \nJonestown, samurai, Heaven's Gate, and Pat Tillmans willing to give up their lives for honor, glory and \nthe greater good.\n \n(sorry, my oath once again broken)\n \n \n \n\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<72CF853D-B508-45AB-AD94-41557199A114@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T15:26:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 16, 2010, at 11:08 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDo not be deceived by the teachings of Master Gurloes, Jack Bauer and Dick Cheney. Torture IS \nunnecessary and cruel and so is the guild which beheads Holy Katharine each year. \n(sorry no more politics, I swear ;- ))" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- The torturers exist under the Autarch's rule. They obey faithfully. You know, the Autarch whose every breath blows tides against the sea in the form of perfect waves. That one. Also, whether torture is or isn't necessary, and whether it is or isn't cruel, is best left to people with more expertise on the matter than I." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan, I'm not so sure that guild would agree with your definition of \"an innocent woman\". First, it\nwould appear that Catherine (as Severian's mother) is not innocent or she wouldn't have been given to \nthe torturers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- So every apprentice ever elevated has to behead Severian's mom? Or are they beheading a puppet? Or an ageless woman in costume with a detachable head which is not real?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second, the implication is that khaibits are being sacrificed each year. Khaibits are clones. How \nexpendable are they considered in the Commonwealth? Every cell in your body is a clone of the other.\nYet we are willing to sacrifice the lives of millions of our clones in male masturbation, \nproviding blood samples, amputation and other activities which benefit the greater source material." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- Severian seems to imply it is the SAME young woman every time, doesn't he?\n\n\"What became of the maid I do not know,\" Severian says. \"She disappeared as she has each Katharine's Day I can remember. I have not seen her again.\" Wouldn't he recognize if it were a different person every time? Would he really be confounded about where she goes?\n\nI don't buy for one second that a real human is sacrificed during the elevation of an apprentice.\n\n\"She took the wax head from Master Gurloes and pretended to replace it on her shoulders, slipping it by some sleight into the fuligin cloth, then standing before us radiant and whole. I knelt before her, and the others withdrew.\"\n\nSo someone dies, but then someone else in a similar shape gets up and pretends to put on the head of the one who was just killed? Not buying it.\n\nThe lochage indeed said that if a pauper jumped from a bridge every time we breathed, it wouldn't matter, because the Commonwealth breeds and breaks men faster than we respire.\n\nBut there is a code of honor of how things are done at Matachin Tower, and I find no evidence of murder without cause anywhere. Now, if Severian told us they bring up a client from the oubliette and give them the off in a sacrificial ritual sanctioned by the Autarch, then okay, but he doesn't say that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you were the unfaithful exultant Contessa Catherine and offered a 15-20 year reprieve from torture \nin exchange for providing yearly khaibit donations for ceremonial sacrifice, would you do it? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- I don't know. But I don't think it's relevant to the text that I read, wherein paper roses and a fake broken wheel precede Severian tripping an \"ingenius mechanism\" which elevates a \"wax head smeared with blood\" while the maid \"draped her own with a fuligin cloth.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Whether khaibits could be raised to willingly sacrifice themselves for the greater good of their mistress\nis hardly a question worth asking, given our human history full of willing human sacrifices to the gods, \nJonestown, samurai, Heaven's Gate, and Pat Tillmans willing to give up their lives for honor, glory and \nthe greater good." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- Again, I think it's unfounded conjecture.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6974AD.5080906@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T17:26:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/16/2010 8:41 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nI think what Severian was supposed to do is not quite confirmed as happening during\nhis ascension ceremony. Everything is a bit wobbly and thus suspicious. It may well be\nthat Wolfe is only hoping to show that Severian is as apprehensive in becoming a torturer\nas Jeff was to becoming married. (I will not pursue that line of thought any further ;- ).\nBut perhaps there is more to it. I find it possible." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh. It wasn't that I was apprehensive, I wanted very badly to be \nmarried. But I was extremely anxious about getting through the day and \nearnestly praying, \"Please don't let me screw up the ceremony.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Would it have been different if I had been a character in a Wolfe book? When faced with the choice of\na hot air balloon tent or magical flying cathedral in science fiction, is it the same as the real world?\nMust we always think the prosaic answer is more likely? If one purpose of SF is to stun and amaze us I\nthink the opposite is true. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, \"science fiction\" in particular is supposed to appeal to the \nauthority of science to suspend disbelief. In this way, unscientific \nthings are less believable than in the real world, because fiction is \nsupposed to make sense." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T17:55:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C6974AD.5080906@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn- - So every apprentice ever elevated has to behead Severian's mom? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or are they beheading a puppet? Or an ageless woman in costume with a detachable \nhead which is not real?\n \nNo, as I undertand the theory, they are khaibits." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't buy for one second that a real human is sacrificed during the elevation of \nan apprentice.So someone dies, but then someone else in a similar shape gets up and \npretends to put on the head of the one who was just killed? Not buying it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh, heh, no sale? Can't blame you. The whole thing is pure speculation, piling guess-\nwork upon guesswork. But I thought everything in here was for free. More like a trash\nheap. Up to each person to sort through the trash and decides what is treasure." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The lochage indeed said that if a pauper jumped from a bridge every time we breathed, \nit wouldn't matter, because the Commonwealth breeds and breaks men faster than we respire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree, it doesn't sound like a society very respectful of human life to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think it's relevant to the text that I read, wherein paper roses and a fake \nbroken wheel precede Severian tripping an \"ingenius mechanism\" which elevates a \"wax \nhead smeared with blood\" while the maid \"draped her own with a fuligin cloth.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, the wheel and Maxentius and beheading is surely relevant to St. Catherine of \nAlexandria. She got the torturer treatment for refusing to deny her faith and *refusing\na royal wedding*. How that relates to the maid who plays the part and who may have\nrun off from an order of monials and met a guy named Ouen is, perhaps, a relevant\nquestion.\n \nBut the question here is, why does a fake sword described as constructed of especially \nlight-weight materials feel very heavy to Severian and almost knock him over as he lifts \nit? If the fake sword had been decribed as \"solid mahogany, painted silver\" or something \nlike that, the question wouldn't be asked.\n\nOne explanation is that it isn't a fake sword. Another is Jeff's, that Severian is very\napprehensive about becoming a torturer and the weight is a metaphor for the responsibility he\nis about to accept. Perhaps there are other explanations. I'd like to hear them. What harm does \nit do to present them? Each person can decide which works best for them. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C697DBA.9000900@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T18:04:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/16/2010 10:08 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nThe admiration both of you share for the guild as it existed at the beginning of the story is not\nshared by Severian. Earlier he parrots the justifications and rote reasons for the necessity of\nhis guild but by the end has decided to reform it.\n\nDo not be deceived by the teachings of Master Gurloes, Jack Bauer and Dick Cheney. Torture IS\nunnecessary and cruel and so is the guild which beheads Holy Katharine each year." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree it is un-necessary, but that's part of the evils of statecraft I \nmentioned some time ago. There are many false positives involved, but \nintellegence gathered under duress has been effective when these could \nbe eliminated with fairly small opportunity costs, and in the case of \nAlgiers, both sides affirmed it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan, I'm not so sure that guild would agree with your definition of \"an innocent woman\". First, it\nwould appear that Catherine (as Severian's mother) is not innocent or she wouldn't have been given to\nthe torturers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can't reasonably expect a series of somatic clones to fortuitously \ncommit a willful, uncoerced criminal act each year in turn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Second, the implication is that khaibits are being sacrificed each year. Khaibits are clones. How\nexpendable are they considered in the Commonwealth? Every cell in your body is a clone of the other.\nYet we are willing to sacrifice the lives of millions of our clones in male masturbation,\nproviding blood samples, amputation and other activities which benefit the greater source material." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those sperm care produced continuously and die contiguously whether the \nleave the body or not." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T18:17:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C697DBA.9000900@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Well, \"science fiction\" in particular is supposed to appeal to the \nauthority of science to suspend disbelief. In this way, unscientific \nthings are less believable than in the real world, because fiction is \nsupposed to make sense." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI certainly agree with that. A good general truism. Not so applicable to this issue,\nthough it would be if there was a chance Severian was, at the moment, transported to\nan identical planet with a larger, more dense core.\n \nThis is a social question. A sword which is supposed to be very light feels very\nheavy. The question is, who, if anyone, is being tricked? Perhaps Severian, the younger \napprentices and us readers. Or perhaps nobody. Who can authoritatively say?\n \nA hero of the torturer guild was able to sucessfully fool and please an entire audience \nat an execution, even though half of them wanted it to turn out one way and half wanted the\nother. Severian gives his clients a false cant so that they won't really know when the \ndeath stroke is coming. Tricking the audience and tricking the client is an honored art \namong the torturers. Who does the tinsel sword trick?\n \n(p.s thanks for the clarification on your wedding nervousness Jeff. Consider my posts \non the subject to be suitably amended :- )) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T18:32:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I see the fact that the maid springs up, picks up the head, and\nwalks off with it...\n\n..._and that nobody in the Guild appears to be surprised by this_...\n\n...as militating against the idea that someone was actually beheaded.\nOne could suppose that Severian resurrected his own maid, but not that\nresurrection has been going on for all these years.\n\nSo even if someone had pranked Sev and substituted a true sword for a\nfalse one, perhaps thinking to get him to kill his own mother, those\npeople would have been quite startled at the resurrection.\n\nNobody is surprised by a resurrection. Ergo, no resurrection takes place." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8F9755A2-FCDD-48AC-9B69-2299E64C7D12@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T18:47:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:32 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nWell, I see the fact that the maid springs up, picks up the head, and\nwalks off with it...\n\n..._and that nobody in the Guild appears to be surprised by this_...\n\n...as militating against the idea that someone was actually beheaded.\nOne could suppose that Severian resurrected his own maid, but not that\nresurrection has been going on for all these years.\n\nSo even if someone had pranked Sev and substituted a true sword for a\nfalse one, perhaps thinking to get him to kill his own mother, those\npeople would have been quite startled at the resurrection.\n\nNobody is surprised by a resurrection. Ergo, no resurrection takes place." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're the best. Simply.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T18:48:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<8F9755A2-FCDD-48AC-9B69-2299E64C7D12@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: You can't reasonably expect a series of somatic clones to fortuitously \ncommit a willful, uncoerced criminal act each year in turn." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why not? With conditioning, people die in self-sacrificial manner every day in our world \nand they do it for mere religious or patriotic reasons and are often labeled criminals \nby their enemies. Would you die to save the life of your closest family member? Only \nidentical twins know what it is like to have a family member as close as a clone.\n \nMoreover if a Catherine khaibit was trained from birth that her most holy duty and \npurpose in life was to perform as Holy Katharine for the torturers at age 30. I could \nsee it happening. Would she really be so jealous of the other khaibits who were forced\nto spend their lives working in a whorehouse and getting their blood sucked out?\n \nStill, I can imagine one of the khaibits getting pissed off and running away. Why was\nthat dark-haired, oval faced, pale-gowned woman being escorted by guards on the Path\nof Air? Why was the dark-haired corpse in a pale gown dead? It would involve time\ntravel.....\n \nI am interested in any other theories explaining the Path of Air. I have not heard any\nso far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Those sperm care produced continuously and die contiguously whether the leave the body \nor not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heh, heh, sure. Same with blood cells. Same with amputated arm cells. Methinks you might\nbe arguing for the sake of argument or to distract attention from that damn heavy sword.\n \nI liked your wedding argument though. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T18:56:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes- Nobody is surprised by a resurrection. Ergo, no resurrection takes place." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nWho has sugggested there was a resurrection? Not me, anyway. The only people I can see who are\nproposing a resurrection are those who are trying to argue against it.\n \nWhat is the term ...hay something.... \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T18:57:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Aug 16, 2010 at 11:56 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes- Nobody is surprised by a resurrection. Ergo, no resurrection takes place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Who has sugggested there was a resurrection? Not me, anyway. The only people I can see who are\nproposing a resurrection are those who are trying to argue against it.\n\nWhat is the term ...hay something...." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you're missing the point. If there's no resurrection, nobody dies." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T19:07:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Aug 16, 2010, at 2:57 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nDan'l Danehy-Oakes- Nobody is surprised by a resurrection. Ergo, no resurrection takes place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Who has sugggested there was a resurrection? Not me, anyway. The only people I can see who are\nproposing a resurrection are those who are trying to argue against it.\n\nWhat is the term ...hay something...." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you're missing the point. If there's no resurrection, nobody dies." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee, this is the passage which implies part of the ritual is that Holy Katharine is resurrected and then \"knight's thee\" torturer...\n\n\"She took the wax head from Master Gurloes and pretended to replace it on her shoulders, slipping it by some sleight into the fuligin cloth, then standing before us radiant and whole. I knelt before her, and the others withdrew.\n\nShe raised the sword with which I had so lately struck off her head; the blade was bloody now from some contact with the wax. \"You are of the torturers,\" she said.\"\n\nHe lops off her head with a false blade (which met resistance for a moment on the wax head upon impact), and then she gets up, headless, to put the wax head back on her shoulders. Then she dubs Severian \"of the torturers\" and the elevation is complete.\n\nDo you not see the resurrection there? If she gets up from the dead and puts the head back on, then she didn't really die, did she?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C698DD5.8090600@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T19:13:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "/\"She took the wax head from Master Gurloes and pretended to replace \nit on her shoulders, slipping it by some sleight into the fuligin \ncloth, then standing before us radiant and whole. I knelt before her, \nand the others withdrew./\n/\nShe raised the sword with which I had so lately struck off her head; \nthe blade was bloody now from some contact with the wax. \"You are of \nthe torturers,\" she said.\"/" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Alice Cooper used to have himself beheaded during his shows at the turn \nof the 70s decade. It's an old illusion.\n\nThis scene parallels the both the story of the Green Knight and the \nIslamic beheading of Ishmael.\n\nI can't look it up now, but someone said the sword was made of mahogany. \nThat's not an especially light material.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T19:15:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 16, 2010, at 1:55 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nBut the question here is, why does a fake sword described as constructed of especially \nlight-weight materials feel very heavy to Severian and almost knock him over as he lifts \nit? If the fake sword had been decribed as \"solid mahogany, painted silver\" or something \nlike that, the question wouldn't be asked." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "About that sword. Here is what I have found relating to it...\n\n\"The sword - though it seemed a true headsman's blade from a pace or two away - was no more than a wooden batten provided with an old hilt and brightened with tinsel.\"\n\n\"'Behead her,' demanded Maxentius, and I took up the sword. It was very heavy.\"\n\n\"I lifted the sword. I remember that for a moment I feared it would overbalance me.\"\n\n\"With such strength as I was capable of, I sent the false blade down. For an instant it seemed to me that it met resistance; then it thudded into the block, which fell into two.\"\n\nSo, it's a piece of wood with an old hilt and some decorum to make it brighter. The \"old hilt\" can be heavy, and who's to say the large piece of wood can't be heavy either?\n\nThis text (and it was all of the text I could find about it) does not imply to me, in any way, that it was a real blade. If it turns out it WAS a real blade, then we may as well not believe anything Severian tells us at all.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<07A3D2C8-2C6C-4695-B53F-93C49B995D5B@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T19:25:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C698DD5.8090600@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 16, 2010, at 3:13 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI can't look it up now, but someone said the sword was made of mahogany. That's not an especially light material. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no mention of mahogany in any of the five volumes of BotNS. I have provided (as best as I can tell) all of the citations relating to the false sword in the post before this one.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T19:51:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<07A3D2C8-2C6C-4695-B53F-93C49B995D5B@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sigh, yes, thank you for getting the basic idea of Dave Tallman's theory, Ryan.\nI was about to give up trying amidst all the misunderstandings. Perhaps that\nwould have been the best course of action anyway.\n \nThat's the idea. A sword that is twice described as made from light materials \n(batten and tinsel) is later described as very heavy. Yes, the old hilt could \nbe heavy but if Severian is knocked off balance by lifting it, a heavy blade \nseems a more likely culprit. The physics of that should be clear.\n\nThe suggestion Dave (I think it was him) made is that the maid was a khaibit, \nshe was really beheaded but a trick allowed another, identical khaibit to\ntake her place, thus allowing real blood to be used as the chrism, thus \nrequiring Severian to observe his mother (in clone form) being killed over and \nover all his life, and eventually having him kill her himself. I don't know\nwhat the purpose of that might be. Perhaps a literary contrast to him resurrecting \nhis grandmother.\n \nThe appeal to it is found in Dr. Talos' play. We have a (presumably) exultant \nContessa named Carina (a form of Catherine) who has three maids, all with saint\nnames of women who were beheaded. Anything which adds meaning to that confusing\nplay is interesting to me.\n \nI also find the theory interesting because it can be tied to my perception that\nthe woman Severian sees on the Path of Air (Contessa's Road of Air) is related to\nthe woman in the grave from the first few pages of the story and Catherine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn- If it turns out it WAS a real blade, then we may as well not believe \nanything Severian tells us at all." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That is an interesting statement. Many think that Severian is an unreliable \nnarrator who makes numerous mistakes and even lies in the text. Rather \nrefreshing to see some one considers Severian totally reliable. I truly like the \nguy and think he deserves a little more support and understanding than he gets in \nhere.\n \n \np.s. my post said \"IF the false sword was said to be made of mahogany then we \nwouldn't need to question it being heavy.\" But a batten is a thin, light piece\nof wood, by definition. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0C103E22-3021-48D5-BD65-D7621E3E7C14@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T19:58:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 16, 2010, at 3:51 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nSigh, yes, thank you for getting the basic idea of Dave Tallman's theory, Ryan.\nI was about to give up trying amidst all the misunderstandings. Perhaps that\nwould have been the best course of action anyway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ha!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's the idea. A sword that is twice described as made from light materials \n(batten and tinsel) is later described as very heavy. Yes, the old hilt could \nbe heavy but if Severian is knocked off balance by lifting it, a heavy blade \nseems a more likely culprit. The physics of that should be clear." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- Or Severian was tipsy himself, and the hilt was indeed heavy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The suggestion Dave (I think it was him) made is that the maid was a khaibit, \nshe was really beheaded but a trick allowed another, identical khaibit to\ntake her place, thus allowing real blood to be used as the chrism, thus \nrequiring Severian to observe his mother (in clone form) being killed over and \nover all his life, and eventually having him kill her himself. I don't know\nwhat the purpose of that might be. Perhaps a literary contrast to him resurrecting \nhis grandmother." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- So two khaibits, one of them killed behind closed doors to provide blood for the event? Why not pig's blood? what would the difference be to the viewer? The difference to the guild is immense, use the blood of the animal slayed for the feast, or kill some prostitute who the torturers never see for theatrics?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The appeal to it is found in Dr. Talos' play. We have a (presumably) exultant \nContessa named Carina (a form of Catherine) who has three maids, all with saint\nnames of women who were beheaded. Anything which adds meaning to that confusing\nplay is interesting to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- Sure, behead a thousand Katharines, but does Severian believe the beheaded Saint just gets up of her own accord? Severian seems to be under the impression that he knows the mechanics of the stagecraft at hand, and plays along as best as he can. That includes the fake beheading." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I also find the theory interesting because it can be tied to my perception that\nthe woman Severian sees on the Path of Air (Contessa's Road of Air) is related to\nthe woman in the grave from the first few pages of the story and Catherine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "- I'm prone to wild theories (See \"Agia as Robot\") but this seems to be retrofitting a theory, and bending a lot of the rules of narration in order to achieve some sense of resolution in doing so.\n\n- The Feast of Holy Katharine does not involve a woman dying, and until some better evidence comes along proving otherwise, I refuse to believe it.\n\nREFUSE! I say.\n\n:)\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C699FC7.4040501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T20:29:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ryan Dunn- If it turns out it WAS a real blade, then we may as well not believe\nanything Severian tells us at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee - That is an interesting statement. Many think that Severian is an unreliable\nnarrator who makes numerous mistakes and even lies in the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On page 2 of Shadow of the Torturer, Severian makes an error of fact \nregarding whether Drotte or Roche said the men were carrying pikes. \nThere is no doubt that Severian makes mistakes in recall.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<3D5F04B8-FF51-47E7-ABE4-9CCE52679C09@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T20:56:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C699FC7.4040501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Aug 16, 2010, at 4:29 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nRyan Dunn- If it turns out it WAS a real blade, then we may as well not believe\nanything Severian tells us at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee - That is an interesting statement. Many think that Severian is an unreliable\nnarrator who makes numerous mistakes and even lies in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On page 2 of Shadow of the Torturer, Severian makes an error of fact regarding whether Drotte or Roche said the men were carrying pikes. There is no doubt that Severian makes mistakes in recal" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course he is an unreliable narrator, is that in question?\n\nI still don't think anyone is beheaded during the Feast of Holy Katharine, regardless.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-17T00:38:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<3D5F04B8-FF51-47E7-ABE4-9CCE52679C09@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn- Besides calling the blade batten with an old hilt, where does he go to \n\"pains to describe the blade of the sword as light\"?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Tinsel is, by definition, lightweight just like a batten. If Wolfe wanted to depict a\nheavy blade he'd have described it as silver painted mahogany or blunted shiny steel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The batten could be double sided with beads inside to shift the balance the way \nTerminus Est does. The tip of the blade could be of a heavy lead then covered with \ntinsel decoration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI asked if you could say why the sword made of lightweight materials feels very heavy without\nresorting to \"ifs\" and \"could be's\" and other hypotheticals. You can't. No shame to you, \nNobody could do it. You like to speculate that Severian has lied and it is made of lead\nnot wood. I find it more interesting to speculate that it is a real sword that cuts. But both \nare equally speculations.\n \n(Terminus Est is filled with liquid mercury, btw, which is even denser than steel)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not sure what I'm defending anymore." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhy is it even a fight? And who/what was attacked?\n \nIf those last two questions could be answered by all, I think a lot of problems on this board\nwould be solved. But, c'est la vie. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-17T12:23:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman- Here is another quote from that section, ambiguous but possibly\nsignificant, \"I knew even as I watched her that her head was only\nconcealed in the cloth; but it seemed there was nothing there. I felt\ndizzy and tired.\">" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He had seen the illusion many times, and this time much closer. Yet\nthis time \"it seemed there was nothing there.\" He also felt dizzy and\ntired, perhaps because healing power was going out from him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThe head seeming to not be there is very good evidence for your theory Dave. \nThe dizzy/tiredness a bit less compelling regarding resurrection but still good.\n \nI like the idea of a khaibit being sacrificed every year because it explains\nwhy she never seemed to age. It was a new clone every year. Why use a new clone\nif Holy Katharine didn't really die each year? Agelessness to maintain the \nillusion? If maintaining the illusion was important why allow the apprentices \nto see the sword and the rest was fake?\n \nA khaibit truly sacrificed each year also allows the crism to be real blood instead \nof pig blood or whatever cheap substitute for a client's fresh blood might be used. \nThis seems appropriate to me. \n \nI see two purposes for the guild to pretending their Holy Katharine ceremony is a \nsham when it actually is a real beheading.\n \n1. It sends a message to the apprentice that they are truly elevated. They have been \nfooled all their lives to think they will be play-acting but when they are actually on \nstage they find a real sword in their hands, a real client beneath them and real blood \non their forehead. (Severian isn't always the brightest bulb though...)\n \n2. It hammers home the message that, while Torturers are really performing bloody acts,\nthey are still directors and actors and must be in total control of the stage, the client,\nother functionaries and the audience to control how things are perceived.\n \nThe legendary guild hero who fooled the both sides of an antagonistic audience reinforces \nthis idea of constant stagecraft. As does Master Gurloe's status as a complicated \nintelligent man who must create the illusion of being simple and brutal. Also Severian's \nbehavior and thoughts when he is performing on stage later in the story. \n \nPerhaps all this is a metaphor for BotNS itself. A superficial story about a torturer who \nbecomes king ends up being full of illusion, trickery and deceit, disguising multiple hidden \nlayers of depth and meaning.\n \nDave, I think it was your observation that all THREE maids, Solange, Lybe and Kyneburga were\nbeheaded saints which first led me to my consideration that Catherine is sacrificed every year. \nI still think your idea about the resurrection and the real beheading as a one-time Conciliator\ntest is a good one. The underlying purposes inherent in our theories are quite different.\n \n \nI will guess that Ryan prefers the Tallman interpretation to mine. I think his objection to my \ntheory is that, \"hey! the torturers are good guys! Palaemon, Drotte, Roche, Eata- all cool dudes. \nThey would not participate in something as horrible as human sacrifice for the sake of ritual\". \nThe Tallman theory allows even the one real beheading of Catherine to not be so bad as she is \nbrought back to life as expected.\n \nI am much more willing to accept that the Torturers were fully capable of performing unnecessary \nbarbaric acts. Supposedly, \"Torturers Obey!\". Yet at every turn they are tricking the government, \nfalsifying paperwork, staging torture and beheadings to appear a certain way, covering up the \nmisdeeds of their guild members etc.\n \nThis does not mean I fully disagree with Ryan. Severian, Drotte, Eata etc. ARE cool guys. But \nGene Wolfe was in the army during a war. I suspect he came to realize that brotherhood, loyalty, \npatriotism, honor, codes and secrecy can be used to get good men to do terrible, unnecessary \nthings. This applies to the Spanish Inquisition, Nazi Germany and Al Qaeda as much as the US \nArmy and Abu Graib. I think I understand why Wolfe has Severian reform the guild. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-17T14:33:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave T- Sev saw his mother on the Path of Air, about to be sent back to the\npast so he can be born." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- My counter-theory is simpler and avoids most time-meddling:" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nThis counter-theory (pasted in full below) bothers me for a few reasons. \n \n1. Why would it be desirable to avoid most \"time-meddling\"? We do have time-\ntravel in the story. Why is it to be avoided?\n \n2. Severian seeing his mother's face everywhere is explained psychologically.\nOrphan trauma. But in 5HoC we are shown that seeing one's own face everywhere is\nthe product of cloning. We do have cloning in this story. As I find common threads \ntying all Wolfe books together, I think cloning might be the first theory to \nconsider in explaining a repeated face, not the mental condition theory.\n \n3. It does not explain why this is called the Path of Air. Nor why a such a small\nblip in Severian's mind is so important that it should end up being expressed in \nDr. Talos' play, 60 years earlier.\n \nIn the real world, I think Occam's Razor can and should cut out explanations which\ninvolve time travel, clones, dragons, etc. Not so in SF & F. They are on at least\nequal footing with more prosaic explanations.\n \nFor example, Wizard Of Oz, the book, does not invoke a dream. It is a great SF & F\nstory, especially for its time.\n \nWizard of Oz, the movie, is one of the greatest movies of all time. But it isn't\nSF & F. It is about the internal conflicts of a creative girl stuck in a drab\nlife on a farm in Kansas. (okay, it could be Fantasy if there is some doubt at the\nend that Oz was only a dream. I don't think there is)\n \nIs BotNS SF & F? I would hate to think Severian drowned in the Gyoll and all that\npasses afterward is a dying fantasy. After all, the story ends with him crawling out\nthe water into the light, onto a dreamy beach where he is revered as a god. Is \n\"dying dream\" a good interpretation? No time travel, space travel or clones \nrequired.\n \n(I do have an alternate theory which addresses these concerns but no time to write it, currently)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "1) Ouen confirms that he had Catherine, who was dark and taken by the \nlaw for running off from \"an order of monials.\"\n2) She is flogged for being a runaway slave of the Pelerines, then \ncondemned to the torturers to be fatally excruciated for some greater \ncrime, like the attempted theft of a certain relic.\n3) She is discovered to be pregnant and given a stay of execution to \nallow the Pelerines to claim the child as compensation.\n4) The Pelerines have gone too far to be located, and Catherine is \nexecute but not before her appearance has been imprinted on Severian's \nsubconscious.\n5) From then on, Severian's attention and sometimes fascination is drawn \nto dark-haired, oval-faced, dark complected women. This includes the \nwoman at the Path of Air, whoever the Holy Katharine maid is, the dead \nwoman in the necropolis (her lividity and morbidity give the appearance \nof dark skin in the dark), and numerous others.\n6) The woman at the Path of Air is being taken to repeat her story of \nhaving seen the long-lost Severian on the grounds. She reacts to his \npresence from fear born of incomprehension; is he following/haunting her? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-17T16:02:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan- I guess if you're trying to make it fit your theory, then sure those could be \nclues (albeit vague at best)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think it best to be mindful that we have no reality here. Just words on a page from\nan acknowledged unreliable narrator. As someone recently suggested, when a discussion\ndegenerates to \"Is!\"/\"Isn't!\", it is probably time to, in the words of Officer Barbrady,\n\"move along, move along, people. Nothing to see here\".\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6ACDDC.6020208@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-17T17:58:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/17/2010 9:33 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave T- Sev saw his mother on the Path of Air, about to be sent back to the\npast so he can be born." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- My counter-theory is simpler and avoids most time-meddling:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This counter-theory (pasted in full below) bothers me for a few reasons.\n\n1. Why would it be desirable to avoid most \"time-meddling\"? We do have time-\ntravel in the story. Why is it to be avoided?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Minimal hypothesis, plus we have it that Severian was discovered *by* \ntime travelers already on the path to the throne, so he presumably had \nan origin without their direct intervention. Other changes might \nsubsequently undo that, requiring further measures to bring him back, \nbut his parents seem to be already in place and motivated to do what \ncomes naturally. It also avoids making the masters lying bastards like \nthat shameless Ben Kenobi.\n\nOh, I forgot #7) The mental fatigue and nested dreaming Severian \nexperiences on the occasion of his journeymanhood is a side effect of \nthe aquastor-projecting machinery being tuned in to his mind; it is that \nnight that Palaemon makes his first posthumous appearance when the \nYesodis finally get a good signal and the haziness clears up." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. Severian seeing his mother's face everywhere is explained psychologically.\nOrphan trauma. But in 5HoC we are shown that seeing one's own face everywhere is\nthe product of cloning. We do have cloning in this story. As I find common threads\ntying all Wolfe books together, I think cloning might be the first theory to\nconsider in explaining a repeated face, not the mental condition theory." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not ruling out the possibility that Catherine is a clone, in fact \nbeing a fugitive khaibit who pretends to be a destitute optimate to sell \nherself to the Pelerines is fairly plausible." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "3. It does not explain why this is called the Path of Air. Nor why a such a small\nblip in Severian's mind is so important that it should end up being expressed in\nDr. Talos' play, 60 years earlier." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A loggia is similar to a breezeway, and it's not much of a stretch for a \npath of wind to become a path of air, especially if it is surrounded by \nbaffled and baffling architecture that prevents a direct wind, but still \nlets people get some air. As for the blip, could you be more specific?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In the real world, I think Occam's Razor can and should cut out explanations which\ninvolve time travel, clones, dragons, etc. Not so in SF& F. They are on at least\nequal footing with more prosaic explanations." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "SF is supposed to appeal to the authority of science for the suspension \nof disbelief." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6AD357.7010200@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-17T18:22:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C6ACDDC.6020208@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/17/2010 12:58 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOh, I forgot #7) The mental fatigue and nested dreaming Severian\nexperiences on the occasion of his journeymanhood is a side effect of\nthe aquastor-projecting machinery being tuned in to his mind; it is that\nnight that Palaemon makes his first posthumous appearance when the\nYesodis finally get a good signal and the haziness clears up." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, I meant Malrubius. The resemblance of the other name to \n\"Palaeontology\" always makes me think of him as being the oldest and \ndeadest." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-17T19:30:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "<4C6AD357.7010200@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks for the thoughtful response Jeff. I'll try to make my rejoinder brief." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Minimal hypothesis" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMy argument is that in this book, time travel is not a maximized hypothesis\nIt is as valid as proposing light as an explanation for illumination or\ngravity for why things fall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It also avoids making the masters lying bastards like that shameless Ben Kenobi." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHah! Glad somebody agrees. \"Luke, Darth Vader killed your father\". \"well, from a \ncertain point of view...\" George Lucas is the real liar though, pretending the whole\nseries was in his head when he made the first movie. Unfortunately I do not find any\nof the masters of BotNS to be any more truthful, Tzadkiel included." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "A loggia is similar to a breezeway, and it's not much of a stretch for a \npath of wind to become a path of air, especially if it is surrounded by \nbaffled and baffling architecture that prevents a direct wind, but still \nlets people get some air. As for the blip, could you be more specific?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell the Path of Air is, ostensibly, in the House Absolute, making it completely\nunderground. Not a good place for a breezeway, yet is is a bit breezy. Convoluted\narchitecture could be invoked, I suppose. But my theory guesses that The Path of\nAir is not entirely within the House Absolute. The other side opens to a quite\nbreezy place. More on that later.\n \nBy blip I just mean that you suggest the woman on the Path of Air is not any\nrelation to Severian's mother she just looks like her. Thus she has no importance\nto the story as a blip of false recognition in Severian's mind. I don't see why \nCanog or whoever would exaggerate this into something which becomes the Contessa \nCarina in Dr. Talos' play. My theory considers her important.\n\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6B7BAF.7000604@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-18T06:20:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Two Katharines", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/17/2010 2:30 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nThanks for the thoughtful response Jeff. I'll try to make my rejoinder brief." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Minimal hypothesis" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My argument is that in this book, time travel is not a maximized hypothesis\nIt is as valid as proposing light as an explanation for illumination or\ngravity for why things fall." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Light and gravity are common and cheaper than dirt on Urth, while time \ntravel requires a huge undertaking on the part of creatures whose \nsublime resources are neverhteless spread quite thin: each would require \na trip to Yesod to consult with Tzadkiel the judge, who must split his \ntime between several galaxy-islands. The five slots in the mausoleum \nhints subtextually that there are only so many interventions available." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It also avoids making the masters lying bastards like that shameless Ben Kenobi." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hah! Glad somebody agrees. \"Luke, Darth Vader killed your father\". \"well, from a\ncertain point of view...\" George Lucas is the real liar though, pretending the whole\nseries was in his head when he made the first movie. Unfortunately I do not find any\nof the masters of BotNS to be any more truthful, Tzadkiel included." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But it's a gratuitous lie. For example, the \"dark father\" could have \nfaked the death of Anakin Skywalker, actually killed Darth Vader and \ntaken his identity as part of some nefarious plot. Likewise, if it is so \nimportant that the blood be real and fresh, the masters can instead use \na prop sword with one that has just enough edge to draw blood, then let \nSeverian draw blood from the maid's neck without cutting too deeply. \nThis is the sort of thing that khaibit-whores are expected to have done \nto them on occasion. \"'If you strike her or use a grip, they'll charge \nmore.'\"\n\nThey could even import the transubstantiation meme and use wine, or even \ngrape juice." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] } ] }