{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/571", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 571, "subject": "Suzanne", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "1998-05-07T15:25:00+00:00", "last": "1998-05-11T00:00:23+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-05-07T15:25:00+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Suzanne", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 12:00 1998-05-07 -0400, Alice Turner wrote:\nPeter,\n\nWe don't allow for spoilers here--in other words we simply assume that\neveryone has read everything, and let the unwary reader beware. What you\nfound in \"Suzanne\"--I assume it's different from mantis's discovery of the\nProust connection (which was amazing enough!)--do tell." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I'll start with a couple of hints, and then put the spoiler\nright at the end.\n\nFirst, why do we see Suzanne's daughter? I think she's there to tell\nus what Suzanne looks like. I would have been surprised if she had\nbeen a tanned redhead, for instance. We don't meet Suzanne herself\nbecause that would be too much like the Stoppard parody of Waiting\nFor Godot - \"there he is now\". It would undo the plot.\n\nSecond, the narrator wonders if Suzanne belongs to any cliques.\nI think she belongs to at least two: the Pie Club, and one other\ngroup of people, mentioned in the story.\n\nFinal hint: what's the problem with looking for Suzanne in the\npicture of the Pie Club?\n\nOkay, last chance. ** SPOILER follows **\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\n\nHere's the sentence, and in particular the phrase, that still\ngives me the shivers:\n\n Suzanne is listed among those \"Unable to be photographed\".\n\nAnd the girls in the Pie Club photo are too loosely grouped to\nbe identified easily. But I bet they wouldn't have looked that\nway at the time .... when you could see Suzanne.\n\n\nPeter." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "adam louis stephanides", "address": "astephan at students.uiuc.edu" }, "date": "1998-05-08T16:03:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Suzanne", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, 8 May 1998 Peter Westlake wrote:\nSecond, the narrator wonders if Suzanne belongs to any cliques.\nI think she belongs to at least two: the Pie Club, and one other\ngroup of people, mentioned in the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which? The \"dazzlingly beautiful ones\"? That's certainly what one\ninterpretation of Suzanne's daughter's appearance, but see below." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here's the sentence, and in particular the phrase, that still\ngives me the shivers:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Suzanne is listed among those \"Unable to be photographed\".\n\nAnd the girls in the Pie Club photo are too loosely grouped to\nbe identified easily. But I bet they wouldn't have looked that\nway at the time .... when you could see Suzanne." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hate to pour cold water on your theories, especially since this story\nhas always mystified me. But if, as you seem to be implying, Suzanne is\nsome sort of supernatural being who doesn't show up in photographs, I\nthink the narrator would have heard about it and remembered it, along with\nthe entire town. And if Suzanne had been absent from the Pie Club photo,\ninstead of just unidentifiable, wouldn't the narrator have noticed that\nthe caption contained one too many names? I think \"loosely grouped\" means\nonly that the girls are posed as if in the middle of cooking, rather than\nlined up in rows as is usual.\n\nI really would like an explanation for this story. The best I've been\nable to do is: if Suzanne's daughter had really been as strikingly\nbeautiful as the story's next-to-last paragraph describes, then the\nnarrator would certainly have noticed Suzanne. Ergo, the daughter is\nreally not so remarkable, and the flowery prose of the description\nreflects the sentimentality of a lonely middle-aged man. But if that's\nall there is to it, it's not much of a story. And the way Wolfe writes\nit, it feels to me that there should be some greater payoff.\n\n--Adam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-05-09T00:01:07+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Suzanne", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 16:03 1998/05/08 -0500, Adam wrote:\n\n\nOn Fri, 8 May 1998 Peter Westlake wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Second, the narrator wonders if Suzanne belongs to any cliques.\nI think she belongs to at least two: the Pie Club, and one other\ngroup of people, mentioned in the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which? The \"dazzlingly beautiful ones\"? That's certainly what one\ninterpretation of Suzanne's daughter's appearance, but see below." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, the ones who don't show up in photographs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Here's the sentence, and in particular the phrase, that still\ngives me the shivers:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " Suzanne is listed among those \"Unable to be photographed\".\n\nAnd the girls in the Pie Club photo are too loosely grouped to\nbe identified easily. But I bet they wouldn't have looked that\nway at the time .... when you could see Suzanne." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hate to pour cold water on your theories, especially since this story\nhas always mystified me. But if, as you seem to be implying, Suzanne is\nsome sort of supernatural being who doesn't show up in photographs, I\nthink the narrator would have heard about it and remembered it, along with\nthe entire town." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I did wonder about that myself. But as Craig has just reminded us,\nthe story starts with the narrator reading about the idea that\neveryone has had some truly extraordinary experience and forgotten\nall about it. Mirrors might be more of a problem.\n\nAnd if Suzanne had been absent from the Pie Club photo," }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "instead of just unidentifiable, wouldn't the narrator have noticed that\nthe caption contained one too many names? I think \"loosely grouped\" means\nonly that the girls are posed as if in the middle of cooking, rather than\nlined up in rows as is usual." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would depend on what and who was in the background, I think.\n\nHowever ... looking again, I see that the narrator isn't quite\ncertain of the name of the Pie Club. So maybe Craig is right\nand it is the \"Pudding Club\" instead! Suzanne's daughter is only\nabout fifteen, so that would mean the story takes place only\nabout sixteen years after high school, and we are told the\nnarrator has retired; but \"much sooner than most men\", so it\nmight still work.\n\nOne more small bit of evidence for the supernatural theory,\nand the vampire theory in particular, is the way the narrator's\nmother is so exhausted by her trips with Suzanne's mother,\nbut is always so keen to go again. Not much to go on, I admit.\n\nAnother theory is that Suzanne never was at the school, and\nher mother didn't die while the narrator was at college, but\nrejuvenated herself and then invented a high school career\nto account for her appearing on the scene in her teens. Then\nwe really *do* meet her at the end. I'm not entirely convinced\nby this, though.\n\nPeter." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Alice Turner", "address": "al at interport.net" }, "date": "1998-05-09T18:17:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Suzanne", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hate to pour cold water on your theories, especially since this story\nhas always mystified me [snip] I think \"loosely grouped\" means\nonly that the girls are posed as if in the middle of cooking, rather than\nlined up in rows as is usual.\n\nI really would like an explanation for this story. The best I've been\nable to do is: if Suzanne's daughter had really been as strikingly\nbeautiful as the story's next-to-last paragraph describes, then the\nnarrator would certainly have noticed Suzanne. Ergo, the daughter is\nreally not so remarkable, and the flowery prose of the description\nreflects the sentimentality of a lonely middle-aged man. But if that's\nall there is to it, it's not much of a story. And the way Wolfe writes\nit, it feels to me that there should be some greater payoff." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tend to go along with Adam's explanation here, but I don't agree that it\ndiminishes the story. I think there is something powerful and poignant about\na middle-aged man's shock of realization that his entire life could have\nbeen entirely different, had it not been for the coincidences of fate. I\nthink you're all looking too hard for a fantasy element. The godfather of\nthis story is Proust (and for once that is proven, not conjectural), not\nKafka or Borges. The flavor of regret is bittersweet.\n\n-alga-" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Peter Westlake", "address": "peter at harlequin.co.uk" }, "date": "1998-05-11T00:00:23+00:00", "subject": "Re: (urth) Suzanne", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At 18:17 1998/05/09 -0400, alga wrote:\nI tend to go along with Adam's explanation here, but I don't agree that it\ndiminishes the story. I think there is something powerful and poignant about\na middle-aged man's shock of realization that his entire life could have\nbeen entirely different, had it not been for the coincidences of fate. I\nthink you're all looking too hard for a fantasy element. The godfather of\nthis story is Proust (and for once that is proven, not conjectural), not\nKafka or Borges. The flavor of regret is bittersweet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That *does* make a lot of sense. In fact, I shall enjoy reading that\nversion of the story very much even if another explanation proves to\nbe the true one, just as I enjoyed reading \"my\" version. So do you\nthink that never seeing Suzanne is sufficiently odd to fit the\nnotion at the start of the story? Actually, I suppose it is,\nand the narrator hadn't called it to mind before he read the idea.\n\nIt certainly is a powerful and poignant story, and at the moment\nI think you're right.\n\nPeter." } ] } ] }