{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5710", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5710, "subject": "The Key to the Universe", "messages": 25, "voices": 8, "first": "2010-08-13T17:37:47+00:00", "last": "2010-08-16T18:11:50+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T17:37:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Yesod *can be* cyclic. If it is a morally neutral and normally \nempty hyperspace that is given a spiritual character by the Hierarchy \nthat dwells there now, when they move on the pocket of Briah-formed \nspace around the machine-planet will dissipate or collapse, leaving a \nvoid for the next Gnab-fleeing refugees to discover and create their own \nBriah-formed pocket continuum to settle in.\nThis would explain why there are said to be multiple created worlds \nthere, but we only see the one machine-planet with its envelope of air \nand simulated sun - the old, streaky stars may be little pinprick \nwormholes to other pocket continuums in Yesod, perhaps containing the \nremains of judgment planets for Briah" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nJeff, in a previous post I wondered if hyperspace could have suns and\nplanets. My understanding was that matter and energy don't really exist\nthere (hence the meadow and brook of Madregot are not real, just metaphors\nto allow Severian to understand what he sees).\n \nMy conclusion was that Yesod cannot be hyperspace because it contains \nplanets and suns and gravity, etc. You asked me for text citation of the \nYesod planets and suns and I meant to get to that. But now it appears \nyou have done this yourself. Happy I can scratch that off my to-do list!\n:- )\n \nI still like to view Yesod as being the next universe in succession to \nBriah and as our own universe. What actually is the difference between a\n\"simulated\" sun and constructed planets and the \"real\" ones?\n \nUsing my model it means our Earth (and Jesus' Earth) was constructed by \nthe hard-working holy angelic servants of The Increate that we see, not \njust by mindless physical forces. I feel this is in accord with Gene Wolfe's \ncombined religious and scientific thinking and philosophy. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T18:03:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 13, 2010, at 1:37 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nMy conclusion was that Yesod cannot be hyperspace because it contains \nplanets and suns and gravity, etc. You asked me for text citation of the \nYesod planets and suns and I meant to get to that. But now it appears \nyou have done this yourself. Happy I can scratch that off my to-do list!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Was I the only one who, when first reading UotNS, thought that Yesod was simply a planet? He took off his necklace because he could breathe the air, etc.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C65AB94.5090503@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T20:31:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/13/2010 12:37 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nJeff, in a previous post I wondered if hyperspace could have suns and\nplanets. My understanding was that matter and energy don't really exist\nthere (hence the meadow and brook of Madregot are not real, just metaphors\nto allow Severian to understand what he sees).\n\nMy conclusion was that Yesod cannot be hyperspace because it contains\nplanets and suns and gravity, etc. You asked me for text citation of the\nYesod planets and suns and I meant to get to that. But now it appears\nyou have done this yourself. Happy I can scratch that off my to-do list!\n:- )" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The problem is that my idea is that any planets or stars in Yesod are \nfakes, only constructs that simulate the appearance and useful features \nof the authentic ones in Briah, for the convenience of the Yesodis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I still like to view Yesod as being the next universe in succession to\nBriah and as our own universe. What actually is the difference between a\n\"simulated\" sun and constructed planets and the \"real\" ones?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For one thing, Apheta remarks that they have no tides on the \nmachine-planet. She attributes this to their lack of a moon, but it \nimplies that their sun also fails to make tides, preventing it from \nbeing a massive star. It may even be that it's a luminous satellite \ncircling the machine-planet, which is probably too large to rotate \nconventionally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Using my model it means our Earth (and Jesus' Earth) was constructed by\nthe hard-working holy angelic servants of The Increate that we see, not\njust by mindless physical forces. I feel this is in accord with Gene Wolfe's\ncombined religious and scientific thinking and philosophy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In that case, why bother with mindless forces at all?\n\nI don't have a problem with the universe ultimately being of intelligent \ndesign, but I feel that people saying the intelligence *had* to \nintervene over time instead of making the universe self-building is \npresumptious. I also find it more in character for a divinity who is \nsupposed to have a personal relationship with every intelligent being to \ndevote Their interventions to the people rather than the pile of rocks \nthey live on." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T20:53:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C65AB94.5090503@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: I don't have a problem with the universe ultimately being of \nintelligent design, but I feel that people saying the intelligence *had* to \nintervene over time instead of making the universe self-building is \npresumptious. I also find it more in character for a divinity who is \nsupposed to have a personal relationship with every intelligent being to \ndevote Their interventions to the people rather than the pile of rocks \nthey live on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThat is a nice and very humanistic philosophy, I think. I have no disagrement.\nBut keep in mind I am not arguing for intelligent design, I am arguing that Gene \nWolfe with his machine planet and (as you say) synthetic sun might be arguing\nfor intelligent design of the universe, including the rocks.\n\nThis \"synthetic\" sun idea might even enhance the idea. Makes me think of a\nconstruction site where they use temporary lighting during building in \nimitation of the permanent lighting that will one day illuminate the structure. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C65BDDE.6060204@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T21:49:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C65AB94.5090503@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 8/13/2010 3:31 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI don't have a problem with the universe ultimately being of \nintelligent design, but I feel that people saying the intelligence \n*had* to intervene over time instead of making the universe \nself-building is presumptious. I also find it more in character for a \ndivinity who is supposed to have a personal relationship with every \nintelligent being to devote Their interventions to the people rather \nthan the pile of rocks they live on." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I understand the theory of Intelligent Design, it posits that some \nnatural and biological phenomena/processes are best understood and \npredicted if they are addressed with sciences such as engineering rather \nthan natural selection. If I have understood it right, your perplexity \nis that you are applying metaphysical import to merely practical systems.\n\nI mean, who knows what sort of things would interest an Intelligent \nDesigner if such a person were located, and why would it matter? Even \nRichard Dawkins has accepted the concept of a personal Intelligent \nDesigner as a non-problem so long as the designer were understood to be \nan alien race that developed according natural processes.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C65C9C3.5050708@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T22:40:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C65BDDE.6060204@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/13/2010 4:49 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI mean, who knows what sort of things would interest an Intelligent\nDesigner if such a person were located, and why would it matter? Even\nRichard Dawkins has accepted the concept of a personal Intelligent\nDesigner as a non-problem so long as the designer were understood to be\nan alien race that developed according natural processes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's begging the question, in the original sense. Somehow intelligence \nhad arise for the first time in the universe, unless you have a steady \nstate universe where intelligence has always existed. There is very \nstrong support for the Big Bang, so the steady state model is not \nconvincing locally.\n\nThere are some nested -inflationary schemes like Andrei Linde's (and \nalso the Qabbala) where both can be true, as tiny bits of universe \nundergo local expansion into their own universe-scaled envelope, joined \nby a tiny bottleneck to the original, but the inflated scale and the \nbottleneck prevent meaningful access after the moment of sub-creation.\n\nThis still allows Wolfe to use a similar model in the BOTNS, since he \nhas license to fudge the bottleneck into a black hole/white hole-sized \nopening, just like he fudges FTL and antigravity, giants and giant robots." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C65D4B1.4020300@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T23:26:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C65C9C3.5050708@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 8/13/2010 5:40 PM, wrote:\nOn 8/13/2010 4:49 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn - I mean, who knows what sort of things would interest an \nIntelligent Designer if such a person were located, and why would it \nmatter? Even Richard Dawkins has accepted the concept of a personal \nIntelligent\nDesigner as a non-problem so long as the designer were understood to be\nan alien race that developed according natural processes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson - That's begging the question, in the original sense. \nSomehow intelligence had arise for the first time in the universe, \nunless you have a steady state universe where intelligence has always \nexisted. There is very strong support for the Big Bang, so the steady \nstate model is not convincing locally." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True. But, assuming one lived in an environment where all life was \nintelligently designed, questions about how an undefined intelligent \nlife might have arisen naturally in an some unknown environment would be \nan entirely speculative question--beyond the realm of hard science. The \nprinciples of engineering would be the best path for understanding \nbiology. Paleontology would be Architectural History.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T00:57:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C65C9C3.5050708@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nThat's begging the question, in the original sense. Somehow intelligence had\narise for the first time in the universe, unless you have a steady state\nuniverse where intelligence has always existed. There is very strong support\nfor the Big Bang, so the steady state model is not convincing locally." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course, theism begs the question in an isomoprhic way; it ignores\nthe question, \"And where did God come from?\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C65FE27.20507@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T02:23:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C65D4B1.4020300@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/13/2010 6:26 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nOn 8/13/2010 5:40 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/13/2010 4:49 PM, wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn - I mean, who knows what sort of things would interest an\nIntelligent Designer if such a person were located, and why would it\nmatter? Even Richard Dawkins has accepted the concept of a personal\nIntelligent\nDesigner as a non-problem so long as the designer were understood to be\nan alien race that developed according natural processes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson - That's begging the question, in the original sense.\nSomehow intelligence had arise for the first time in the universe,\nunless you have a steady state universe where intelligence has always\nexisted. There is very strong support for the Big Bang, so the steady\nstate model is not convincing locally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True. But, assuming one lived in an environment where all life was\nintelligently designed, questions about how an undefined intelligent\nlife might have arisen naturally in an some unknown environment would be\nan entirely speculative question--beyond the realm of hard science. The\nprinciples of engineering would be the best path for understanding\nbiology. Paleontology would be Architectural History." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think this is necessarily the case, unless you include the \npossibility of radically variant physical laws that would prevent any \nkind of emergent, self-organizing behavior; a universe without spiral \ngalaxies or snowflakes." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C660565.4080105@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T02:54:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/13/2010 7:57 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's begging the question, in the original sense. Somehow intelligence had\narise for the first time in the universe, unless you have a steady state\nuniverse where intelligence has always existed. There is very strong support\nfor the Big Bang, so the steady state model is not convincing locally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, theism begs the question in an isomoprhic way; it ignores\nthe question, \"And where did God come from?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's about the only thing I can objectively answer about God, for the \nJudeo-Christian value of \"God\"; He must come from outside the \nobservable, knowable domain of existence. I mean that not as an \nabstraction, but in the sense of the literally unknowable, unguessable \ncondiiton of being apart from the potentially comprehensible states of \nbeing, that are limited by their own nature not just our nature as \nmortal creatures." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C66CBC8.7000009@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T17:00:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C65FE27.20507@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn--assuming one lived in an environment where all life was\nintelligently designed, questions about how an undefined intelligent\nlife might have arisen naturally in an some unknown environment would be\nan entirely speculative question--beyond the realm of hard science. The\nprinciples of engineering would be the best path for understanding\nbiology. Paleontology would be Architectural History." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson--I don't think this is necessarily the case, unless you \ninclude the possibility of radically variant physical laws that would \nprevent any kind of emergent, self-organizing behavior; a universe \nwithout spiral galaxies or snowflakes. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, lets assume that life on a planet was intelligently \ndesigned...that it was an artifice. And lets assume that after that \nmoment and for 3 billion years following, although the life changed \nsuperficially over time, no new life developed there on its own--that \nall the life found there was a descendant of the originally ID life \n(this part is actually applicable to our planet). It would be reasonable \nto presume that studying the ID life would tell us nothing about life \n(intelligent or otherwise) that occurred by purely natural means. In \nfact, the planet would tell us nothing about the environment necessary \nfor life to occur naturally.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C67041A.9090203@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T21:01:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C65AB94.5090503@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 8/13/2010 12:37 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff, in a previous post I wondered if hyperspace could have suns and\nplanets. My understanding was that matter and energy don't really exist\nthere (hence the meadow and brook of Madregot are not real, just\nmetaphors\nto allow Severian to understand what he sees).\n\nMy conclusion was that Yesod cannot be hyperspace because it contains\nplanets and suns and gravity, etc. You asked me for text citation of the\nYesod planets and suns and I meant to get to that. But now it appears\nyou have done this yourself. Happy I can scratch that off my to-do list!\n:- )" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The problem is that my idea is that any planets or stars in Yesod are\nfakes, only constructs that simulate the appearance and useful features\nof the authentic ones in Briah, for the convenience of the Yesodis." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Fakes or not, they're matter an energy in a 'place' that should have neither \nunless they're 'travelling in hyperspace'. Though I guess you can say \nthey're ships or animations on a ship's screen." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6707A4.1020104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T21:16:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's begging the question, in the original sense. Somehow intelligence had\narise for the first time in the universe, unless you have a steady state\nuniverse where intelligence has always existed. There is very strong support\nfor the Big Bang, so the steady state model is not convincing locally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, theism begs the question in an isomoprhic way; it ignores\nthe question, \"And where did God come from?\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't, because it posits something extraneous to the universe(s) and \nhence not accountable to observed processes such as space, time and \ncausality. Or as it's usually put, 'not contigent'. Whereas 'scientism' \nmakes a leap of methodological faith and says contigent things may \nultimately need no justification. That's why the idea of infinite universes \nappeared: rather than overcome contingency by justification, one tries to \novercome it by infinite supply." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C670880.7050503@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T21:20:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C660565.4080105@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 8/13/2010 7:57 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "That's begging the question, in the original sense. Somehow\nintelligence had\narise for the first time in the universe, unless you have a steady state\nuniverse where intelligence has always existed. There is very strong\nsupport\nfor the Big Bang, so the steady state model is not convincing locally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course, theism begs the question in an isomoprhic way; it ignores\nthe question, \"And where did God come from?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That's about the only thing I can objectively answer about God, for the\nJudeo-Christian value of \"God\"; He must come from outside the\nobservable, knowable domain of existence. I mean that not as an\nabstraction, but in the sense of the literally unknowable, unguessable\ncondiiton of being apart from the potentially comprehensible states of\nbeing, that are limited by their own nature not just our nature as\nmortal creatures." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd even venture that it isn't heretical to suggest that there may be other \nthings beyond God. It's just that, from our vantage point, there's only God. \nGod is our singularity. If one day we get closer to God, we may find out \nthat God is only part of something bigger, but in *our* context, there is \nnothing but God." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T21:54:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C6707A4.1020104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Aug 14, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nThat's begging the question, in the original sense. Somehow intelligence had\narise for the first time in the universe, unless you have a steady state\nuniverse where intelligence has always existed. There is very strong support\nfor the Big Bang, so the steady state model is not convincing locally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Of course, theism begs the question in an isomoprhic way; it ignores\nthe question, \"And where did God come from?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It doesn't, because it posits something extraneous to the universe(s) and hence not accountable to observed processes such as space, time and causality. Or as it's usually put, 'not contigent'. Whereas 'scientism' makes a leap of methodological faith and says contigent things may ultimately need no justification. That's why the idea of infinite universes appeared: rather than overcome contingency by justification, one tries to overcome it by infinite supply." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you are Pantheist, then you believe the Universe is equivalent to God. If you are Panenthiest, you believe the Universe is connected to God, and that God is above the substantive Universe.\n\nI find these trains of thought more appealing in terms of \"religions\" myself.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T22:17:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nThe problem is that my idea is that any planets or stars in Yesod are\nfakes, only constructs that simulate the appearance and useful features\nof the authentic ones in Briah, for the convenience of the Yesodis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Fakes or not, they're matter an energy in a 'place' that should have neither\nunless they're 'travelling in hyperspace'. Though I guess you can say\nthey're ships or animations on a ship's screen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As a point of interest, Apheta says the stars of Yesod aren't so much\nfakes as haven't been built yet, and they can only be seen because\n\"time runs as we ask here, and we like their light.\" Chapter XX.\n\nThat throwaway line is another of the reasons I don't think that Yesod\ncan be an 'ordinary' Briahtic universe. For Apheta, Severian and\neveryone to experience time flowing in one direction, while elsewhere\nit's flowing in another... suggests there has to be something hyper\nabout this place." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C67354D.3060501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T00:31:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C67041A.9090203@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The problem is that my idea is that any planets or stars in Yesod\nare fakes, only constructs that simulate the appearance and useful\nfeatures of the authentic ones in Briah, for the convenience of the\nYesodis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fakes or not, they're matter an energy in a 'place' that should have\nneither unless they're 'travelling in hyperspace'. Though I guess you\ncan say they're ships or animations on a ship's screen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There has to be energy in Yesod for energy to flow from there to Briah,\nas it is said (...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure thing, I's not saying Yesod shouldn't have energy, I's saying \n'hyperspace' shouldn't. (And that *because* Yesod has it, Yesod doesn't look \nlike hyperspace.) But I'm ready to stand corrected on anything regarding \nhyperspace.\n\nI don't know, if anything sounds like hyperspace in the BNS to me, it's \nMadregot, not Yesod. Yesod to me sounds like something of a different order. \nA universe, but not a Briah-like one." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C67366D.3080608@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T00:35:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Aug 14, 2010, at 5:16 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That's begging the question, in the original sense. Somehow\nintelligence had arise for the first time in the universe, unless\nyou have a steady state universe where intelligence has always\nexisted. There is very strong support for the Big Bang, so the\nsteady state model is not convincing locally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of course, theism begs the question in an isomoprhic way; it ignores\nthe question, \"And where did God come from?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It doesn't, because it posits something extraneous to the universe(s)\nand hence not accountable to observed processes such as space, time and\ncausality. Or as it's usually put, 'not contigent'. Whereas 'scientism'\nmakes a leap of methodological faith and says contigent things may\nultimately need no justification. That's why the idea of infinite\nuniverses appeared: rather than overcome contingency by justification,\none tries to overcome it by infinite supply." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you are Pantheist, then you believe the Universe is equivalent to God.\nIf you are Panenthiest, you believe the Universe is connected to God, and\nthat God is above the substantive Universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And those are other ways out for scientism, albeit uncomfy ones." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find these trains of thought more appealing in terms of \"religions\"\nmyself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I certainly agree they may be appealing, but personally I find them \nunfulfilling." } ] }, { "message_id": "<128F86FB-310C-43FA-BFC3-D18EB447D0F0@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T00:42:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C67366D.3080608@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 14, 2010, at 8:35 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nI certainly agree they may be appealing, but personally I find them unfulfilling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, however, I was raised Catholic, and Pantheism has become my belief of choice. It handles the science as well as the \"why do we dream\" aspect of our life (as well as \"what is life?\") rather well for me.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C67397C.5040200@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T00:49:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<128F86FB-310C-43FA-BFC3-D18EB447D0F0@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Aug 14, 2010, at 8:35 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I certainly agree they may be appealing, but personally I find them\nunfulfilling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "True, however, I was raised Catholic, and Pantheism has become my belief\nof choice. It handles the science as well as the \"why do we dream\" aspect\nof our life (as well as \"what is life?\") rather well for me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can only feel happy for you that you're in good terms with that angle of \nlife :)\n\n(I gather it's 'on'. 'In' soudns better to me.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T03:45:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C670880.7050503@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 8/13/2010 7:57 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 3:40 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "That's begging the question, in the original sense. Somehow\nintelligence had\narise for the first time in the universe, unless you have a steady\nstate\nuniverse where intelligence has always existed. There is very strong\nsupport\nfor the Big Bang, so the steady state model is not convincing locally." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Of course, theism begs the question in an isomoprhic way; it ignores\nthe question, \"And where did God come from?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "That's about the only thing I can objectively answer about God, for the\nJudeo-Christian value of \"God\"; He must come from outside the\nobservable, knowable domain of existence. I mean that not as an\nabstraction, but in the sense of the literally unknowable, unguessable\ncondiiton of being apart from the potentially comprehensible states of\nbeing, that are limited by their own nature not just our nature as\nmortal creatures." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd even venture that it isn't heretical to suggest that there may be\nother\nthings beyond God. It's just that, from our vantage point, there's only\nGod.\nGod is our singularity. If one day we get closer to God, we may find out\nthat God is only part of something bigger, but in *our* context, there is\nnothing but God." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, a singularity is the kind of flaw in knowable existence I had in mind.\n\nIt's also worth mentioning that GW cops to lesser, pagan powers who may \nalso be accommodated in this fashion." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C68A37F.4020502@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T02:33:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C67354D.3060501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/14/2010 7:31 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "The problem is that my idea is that any planets or stars in Yesod\nare fakes, only constructs that simulate the appearance and useful\nfeatures of the authentic ones in Briah, for the convenience of the\nYesodis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Fakes or not, they're matter an energy in a 'place' that should have\nneither unless they're 'travelling in hyperspace'. Though I guess you\ncan say they're ships or animations on a ship's screen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "There has to be energy in Yesod for energy to flow from there to Briah,\nas it is said (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sure thing, I's not saying Yesod shouldn't have energy, I's saying\n'hyperspace' shouldn't. (And that *because* Yesod has it, Yesod doesn't\nlook like hyperspace.) But I'm ready to stand corrected on anything\nregarding hyperspace.\n\nI don't know, if anything sounds like hyperspace in the BNS to me, it's\nMadregot, not Yesod. Yesod to me sounds like something of a different\norder. A universe, but not a Briah-like one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "What's your source of authority on the character of hyperspace?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C69183F.5050001@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T10:51:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C68A37F.4020502@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (16-08-2010 03:33):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/14/2010 7:31 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 5, "text": "The problem is that my idea is that any planets or stars in Yesod\nare fakes, only constructs that simulate the appearance and useful\nfeatures of the authentic ones in Briah, for the convenience of the\nYesodis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Fakes or not, they're matter an energy in a 'place' that should have\nneither unless they're 'travelling in hyperspace'. Though I guess you\ncan say they're ships or animations on a ship's screen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "There has to be energy in Yesod for energy to flow from there to Briah,\nas it is said (...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sure thing, I's not saying Yesod shouldn't have energy, I's saying\n'hyperspace' shouldn't. (And that *because* Yesod has it, Yesod doesn't\nlook like hyperspace.) But I'm ready to stand corrected on anything\nregarding hyperspace.\n\nI don't know, if anything sounds like hyperspace in the BNS to me, it's\nMadregot, not Yesod. Yesod to me sounds like something of a different\norder. A universe, but not a Briah-like one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "What's your source of authority on the character of hyperspace?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "None, as I've said." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C692640.1080204@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-16T11:51:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is Apheta then speaking from within a singularity---before a \nstar-building Big Bang? Does this explain the \"yet unborn\" remark?\n\nThis would require structure where I would have assumed there can be none." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tony Ellis wrote:\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "The problem is that my idea is that any planets or stars in Yesod are\nfakes, only constructs that simulate the appearance and useful features\nof the authentic ones in Briah, for the convenience of the Yesodis.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Fakes or not, they're matter an energy in a 'place' that should have neither\nunless they're 'travelling in hyperspace'. Though I guess you can say\nthey're ships or animations on a ship's screen.\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As a point of interest, Apheta says the stars of Yesod aren't so much\nfakes as haven't been built yet, and they can only be seen because\n\"time runs as we ask here, and we like their light.\" Chapter XX.\n\nThat throwaway line is another of the reasons I don't think that Yesod\ncan be an 'ordinary' Briahtic universe. For Apheta, Severian and\neveryone to experience time flowing in one direction, while elsewhere\nit's flowing in another... suggests there has to be something hyper\nabout this place.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Tony Ellis", "address": "tonyellis69 at btopenworld.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T18:11:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Key to the Universe", "in_reply_to": "<4C692640.1080204@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nIs Apheta then speaking from within a singularity---before a\nstar-building Big Bang?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apheta says that the Hierogrammates will \"build\" more worlds, and\nstars for them if required. Note the order. So I don't see any Big\nBang in Yesod's future.\n\nOr indeed in its past, given the lack of stars. I think Yesod is very\nmuch what it appears to be: a big, empty space." } ] } ] }