Before and After

The Urth list — 13 messages, 7 voices, 13 Aug 2010
https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5711

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes13 Aug 2010, 19:02
Ummmm. I think that for Yesod to be "before" Briah doesn't necessarily mean that Yesod is a predecessor of Briah. Consider this diagram (time proceeds from left to right): YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn So that Yesod exists not only before but also after any given iteration of Briah, but "above" it while Abbaddon is "below." This two-dimensional schema allows for, I believe, everything we know about the Briahtic multiverse.
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
Ryan Dunn13 Aug 2010, 19:12

↳ in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

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On Aug 13, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: Ummmm. I think that for Yesod to be "before" Briah doesn't necessarily mean that Yesod is a predecessor of Briah. Consider this diagram (time proceeds from left to right): YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn So that Yesod exists not only before but also after any given iteration of Briah, but "above" it while Abbaddon is "below." This two-dimensional schema allows for, I believe, everything we know about the Briahtic multiverse.
As long as you agree that each universe lives dies and is reborn, then yes. At least, Briah does this, and when it does this, there is not overlap. Each Universe should have its own life cycle independent of the next. I think whether each Universe has the same rules is up for debate, in Wolfean cosmology at least, but I'd like to believe that Yesod has its own divine years, also. I do like the idea of Yesod as a heaven, and Abbadon as a hell, in terms of planes. I also like the idea of the gods being created by man in a previous Briah. ...ryan
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes13 Aug 2010, 19:22

↳ in reply to Ryan Dunn

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On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Ryan Dunn <ryan at liftingfaces.com> wrote: As long as you agree that each universe lives dies and is reborn, then yes. At least, Briah does this,
Right.
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and when it does this, there is not overlap. Each Universe should have its own life cycle independent of the next.
Questionable: there is more than a hint that some kind of progress is made from Universe to Universe. (On the other hand, there's the question of entropy...)
3 quoted lines
I think whether each Universe has the same rules is up for debate, in Wolfean cosmology at least, but I'd like to believe that Yesod has its own divine years, also.
Might could, but I don't recall any hint of that in the text.
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I do like the idea of Yesod as a heaven, and Abbadon as a hell, in terms of planes. I also like the idea of the gods being created by man in a previous Briah.
Heaven and Hell relative to Briah. But the inhabitants of Yesod are not gods, they're just ... beings higher than humans. Maybe angels, maybe something in between. But recall that Gabriel is still infinitely distant from the Increate...
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
James Wynn13 Aug 2010, 19:24

↳ in reply to Ryan Dunn

10 quoted lines · 1–2 deep
On 8/13/2010 2:12 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote: On Aug 13, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:
Ummmm. I think that for Yesod to be "before" Briah doesn't necessarily mean that Yesod is a predecessor of Briah. Consider this diagram (time proceeds from left to right): YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn So that Yesod exists not only before but also after any given iteration of Briah, but "above" it while Abbaddon is "below." This two-dimensional schema allows for, I believe, everything we know about the Briahtic multiverse.
As long as you agree that each universe lives dies and is reborn, then yes. At least, Briah does this, and when it does this, there is not overlap. Each Universe should have its own life cycle independent of the next. I think whether each Universe has the same rules is up for debate, in Wolfean cosmology at least, but I'd like to believe that Yesod has its own divine years, also.
So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right? ᚹ
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes13 Aug 2010, 19:30

↳ in reply to James Wynn

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On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:24 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote: YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd ? ? ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn
So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right?
Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a previous version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular ours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the Theanthropos.
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
Lee Berman13 Aug 2010, 19:43

↳ follows, by subject match Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

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YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right?
Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a previous version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular ours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the Theanthropos
I hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the Increate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the situation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than Jesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same Christ-figure? Or perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe Briah (n+infinity)? I find these questions difficult.
António Pedro Marques13 Aug 2010, 19:49

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

Lee Berman wrote (13-08-2010 20:43):
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I hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the Increate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the situation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than Jesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same Christ-figure? Or perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe Briah (n+infinity)? I find these questions difficult.
I think any Incarnation will be equivalent, no matter the Briah it appears in. It's the rest of the Briah that may live to a higher or lower standard. I don't think you need worry about the heretical thing. For a professed non-believer, you are impeccable in discussion religious hypotheses.
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes13 Aug 2010, 19:51

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

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On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: I hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the Increate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the situation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than Jesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same Christ-figure? Or perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe Briah (n+infinity)?
I presume that the presence of the true Theanthropos in our Universe either (a) causes the sequence to end, or (b) causes it to change radically. Applying the apocalyptic books of the prophets to the structure suggests as much.
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
Lee Berman13 Aug 2010, 20:01

↳ follows, by subject match Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

1 quoted line
I presume that the presence of the true Theanthropos in our Universe either (a) causes the sequence to end, or (b) causes it to change radically. Applying the apocalyptic books of the prophets to the structure suggests as much.
Thanks, Dan'l. I find your final sentence especially to be a very interesting response.
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes13 Aug 2010, 20:11

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

Sorry for the accidental send of a meaningless message. Here is what I intended...
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On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote: ... Applying the apocalyptic books of the prophets to the structure suggests as much.
Thanks, Dan'l. I find your final sentence especially to be a very interesting response.
Let me clarify: I am not a Bible-crazy. However, I do believe that Wolfe's work is best understood in a Christian (sc. Catholic) perspective, and that includes the Bible. Full disclosure: I'm an adult convert to Catholicism.
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes
Jeff Wilson14 Aug 2010, 02:08

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

7 quoted lines · 1–4 deep
On 8/13/2010 2:43 PM, Lee Berman wrote:
YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right?
Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a previous version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular ours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the Theanthropos
I hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the Increate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the situation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than Jesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same Christ-figure?
The same, but perhaps he is better received.
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Or perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe Briah (n+infinity)? I find these questions difficult.
The mathematical term for this would be Briah(aleph). But there can still be Briah(aleph+1). I must second Adam Thornton's recommendation of _Surreal Numbers_, it is the best "pilot hole" I've seen for drilling your way into the intricacies of infinite numbers, and covers things my previous readings and math teachers hadn't. This is not just an egghead math thing, it has real and direct applications to liberal arts, like solving Zeno's paradox.
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org >
David Stockhoff15 Aug 2010, 20:21

↳ in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

Right. Even though Severian is in a far older universe.
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Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:24 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:
YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn
So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right?
Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a previous version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular ours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the Theanthropos.
David Stockhoff15 Aug 2010, 20:22

↳ in reply to Lee Berman

In n+20, he's BIGGER than Jesus.
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Lee Berman wrote:
YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn
So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right?
Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a previous version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular ours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the Theanthropos
I hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the Increate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the situation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than Jesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same Christ-figure? Or perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe Briah (n+infinity)? I find these questions difficult. _______________________________________________

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