{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5711", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5711, "subject": "Before and After", "messages": 13, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-08-13T19:02:07+00:00", "last": "2010-08-15T20:22:08+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T19:02:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Before and After", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmm. I think that for Yesod to be \"before\" Briah doesn't necessarily\nmean that Yesod is a predecessor of Briah. Consider this diagram (time\nproceeds from left to right):\n\n\nYYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd\n ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) ....\nAAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn\n\nSo that Yesod exists not only before but also after any given\niteration of Briah, but \"above\" it while Abbaddon is \"below.\" This\ntwo-dimensional schema allows for, I believe, everything we know about\nthe Briahtic multiverse." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T19:12:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Before and After", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 13, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nUmmmm. I think that for Yesod to be \"before\" Briah doesn't necessarily\nmean that Yesod is a predecessor of Briah. Consider this diagram (time\nproceeds from left to right):\n\n\nYYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd\n ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) ....\nAAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn\n\nSo that Yesod exists not only before but also after any given\niteration of Briah, but \"above\" it while Abbaddon is \"below.\" This\ntwo-dimensional schema allows for, I believe, everything we know about\nthe Briahtic multiverse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As long as you agree that each universe lives dies and is reborn, then yes. At least, Briah does this, and when it does this, there is not overlap. Each Universe should have its own life cycle independent of the next. I think whether each Universe has the same rules is up for debate, in Wolfean cosmology at least, but I'd like to believe that Yesod has its own divine years, also.\n\nI do like the idea of Yesod as a heaven, and Abbadon as a hell, in terms of planes. I also like the idea of the gods being created by man in a previous Briah.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T19:22:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Before and After", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nAs long as you agree that each universe lives dies and is\nreborn, then yes. At least, Briah does this," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "and when it does this, there is not overlap. Each Universe\nshould have its own life cycle independent of the next." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Questionable: there is more than a hint that some kind of progress is\nmade from Universe to Universe. (On the other hand, there's the\nquestion of entropy...)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think whether each Universe has the same rules is up\nfor debate, in Wolfean cosmology at least, but I'd like\nto believe that Yesod has its own divine years, also." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Might could, but I don't recall any hint of that in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I do like the idea of Yesod as a heaven, and Abbadon\nas a hell, in terms of planes. I also like the idea of\nthe gods being created by man in a previous Briah." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Heaven and Hell _relative to Briah_. But the inhabitants of Yesod are\nnot gods, they're just ... beings higher than humans. Maybe angels,\nmaybe something in between. But recall that Gabriel is still\ninfinitely distant from the Increate..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C659BF3.5020701@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T19:24:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Before and After", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 8/13/2010 2:12 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nOn Aug 13, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ummmm. I think that for Yesod to be \"before\" Briah doesn't necessarily\nmean that Yesod is a predecessor of Briah. Consider this diagram (time\nproceeds from left to right):\n\n\nYYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd\n ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) ....\nAAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn\n\nSo that Yesod exists not only before but also after any given\niteration of Briah, but \"above\" it while Abbaddon is \"below.\" This\ntwo-dimensional schema allows for, I believe, everything we know about\nthe Briahtic multiverse." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As long as you agree that each universe lives dies and is reborn, then yes. At least, Briah does this, and when it does this, there is not overlap. Each Universe should have its own life cycle independent of the next. I think whether each Universe has the same rules is up for debate, in Wolfean cosmology at least, but I'd like to believe that Yesod has its own divine years, also." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T19:30:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Before and After", "in_reply_to": "<4C659BF3.5020701@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:24 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nYYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd\n? ? ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) ....\nAAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a\nprevious version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular\nours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the\nTheanthropos." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T19:43:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Before and After", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd\n ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) ....\nAAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn\nSo then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a\nprevious version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular\nours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the Theanthropos" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the \nIncreate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the \nsituation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than \nJesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same \nChrist-figure?\n \nOr perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe\nBriah (n+infinity)?\n \nI find these questions difficult. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C65A1B3.9090804@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T19:49:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Before and After", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (13-08-2010 20:43):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the\nIncreate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the\nsituation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than\nJesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same\nChrist-figure?\n\nOr perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe\nBriah (n+infinity)?\n\nI find these questions difficult. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think any Incarnation will be equivalent, no matter the Briah it appears \nin. It's the rest of the Briah that may live to a higher or lower standard.\n\nI don't think you need worry about the heretical thing. For a professed \nnon-believer, you are impeccable in discussion religious hypotheses." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T19:51:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Before and After", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the\nIncreate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the\nsituation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than\nJesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same\nChrist-figure?\n\nOr perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe\nBriah (n+infinity)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I presume that the presence of the true Theanthropos in our Universe\neither (a) causes the sequence to end, or (b) causes it to change\nradically. Applying the apocalyptic books of the prophets to the\nstructure suggests as much." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T20:01:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Before and After", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I presume that the presence of the true Theanthropos in our Universe\neither (a) causes the sequence to end, or (b) causes it to change\nradically. Applying the apocalyptic books of the prophets to the\nstructure suggests as much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThanks, Dan'l. I find your final sentence especially to be a very interesting\nresponse. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-13T20:11:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Before and After", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry for the accidental send of a meaningless message. Here is what I\nintended..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n... Applying the apocalyptic books of the prophets to the\nstructure suggests as much." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thanks, Dan'l. I find your final sentence especially to be a very interesting\nresponse." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let me clarify: I am not a Bible-crazy. However, I do believe that\nWolfe's work is best understood in a Christian (sc. Catholic)\nperspective, and that includes the Bible.\n\nFull disclosure: I'm an adult convert to Catholicism." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C65FAA7.4070806@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T02:08:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Before and After", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/13/2010 2:43 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd\n ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) ....\nAAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn\nSo then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a\nprevious version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular\nours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the Theanthropos" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the\nIncreate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the\nsituation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than\nJesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same\nChrist-figure?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The same, but perhaps he is better received." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Or perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe\nBriah (n+infinity)?\n\nI find these questions difficult. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The mathematical term for this would be Briah(aleph). But there can \nstill be Briah(aleph+1).\n\nI must second Adam Thornton's recommendation of _Surreal\nNumbers_, it is the best \"pilot hole\" I've seen for drilling your way \ninto the intricacies of infinite numbers, and covers things my previous \nreadings and math teachers hadn't. This is not just an egghead math \nthing, it has real and direct applications to liberal arts, like solving \nZeno's paradox." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C684C2F.8000704@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-15T20:21:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Before and After", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Right. Even though Severian is in a far older universe." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:24 PM, James Wynn wrote:\n\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd\n ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) ....\nAAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a\nprevious version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular\nours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the\nTheanthropos.\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C684C70.6050509@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-15T20:22:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Before and After", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In n+20, he's BIGGER than Jesus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd\n ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) ....\nAAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a\nprevious version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular\nours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the Theanthropos\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the \nIncreate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the \nsituation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than \nJesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same \nChrist-figure?\n \nOr perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe\nBriah (n+infinity)?\n \nI find these questions difficult. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }