# Before and After *The Urth list — 13 messages, 7 voices, 13 Aug 2010* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *13 Aug 2010, 19:02* Ummmm. I think that for Yesod to be "before" Briah doesn't necessarily mean that Yesod is a predecessor of Briah. Consider this diagram (time proceeds from left to right): YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn So that Yesod exists not only before but also after any given iteration of Briah, but "above" it while Abbaddon is "below." This two-dimensional schema allows for, I believe, everything we know about the Briahtic multiverse. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Ryan Dunn *13 Aug 2010, 19:12 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > On Aug 13, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > Ummmm. I think that for Yesod to be "before" Briah doesn't necessarily > mean that Yesod is a predecessor of Briah. Consider this diagram (time > proceeds from left to right): > > > YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd > ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... > AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn > > So that Yesod exists not only before but also after any given > iteration of Briah, but "above" it while Abbaddon is "below." This > two-dimensional schema allows for, I believe, everything we know about > the Briahtic multiverse. As long as you agree that each universe lives dies and is reborn, then yes. At least, Briah does this, and when it does this, there is not overlap. Each Universe should have its own life cycle independent of the next. I think whether each Universe has the same rules is up for debate, in Wolfean cosmology at least, but I'd like to believe that Yesod has its own divine years, also. I do like the idea of Yesod as a heaven, and Abbadon as a hell, in terms of planes. I also like the idea of the gods being created by man in a previous Briah. ...ryan --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *13 Aug 2010, 19:22 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* > On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:12 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote: > As long as you agree that each universe lives dies and is > reborn, then yes. At least, Briah does this, Right. > and when it does this, there is not overlap. Each Universe > should have its own life cycle independent of the next. Questionable: there is more than a hint that some kind of progress is made from Universe to Universe. (On the other hand, there's the question of entropy...) > I think whether each Universe has the same rules is up > for debate, in Wolfean cosmology at least, but I'd like > to believe that Yesod has its own divine years, also. Might could, but I don't recall any hint of that in the text. > I do like the idea of Yesod as a heaven, and Abbadon > as a hell, in terms of planes. I also like the idea of > the gods being created by man in a previous Briah. Heaven and Hell _relative to Briah_. But the inhabitants of Yesod are not gods, they're just ... beings higher than humans. Maybe angels, maybe something in between. But recall that Gabriel is still infinitely distant from the Increate... ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### James Wynn *13 Aug 2010, 19:24 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* > On 8/13/2010 2:12 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote: > On Aug 13, 2010, at 3:02 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >> Ummmm. I think that for Yesod to be "before" Briah doesn't necessarily >> mean that Yesod is a predecessor of Briah. Consider this diagram (time >> proceeds from left to right): >> >> >> YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd >> ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... >> AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn >> >> So that Yesod exists not only before but also after any given >> iteration of Briah, but "above" it while Abbaddon is "below." This >> two-dimensional schema allows for, I believe, everything we know about >> the Briahtic multiverse. > As long as you agree that each universe lives dies and is reborn, then yes. At least, Briah does this, and when it does this, there is not overlap. Each Universe should have its own life cycle independent of the next. I think whether each Universe has the same rules is up for debate, in Wolfean cosmology at least, but I'd like to believe that Yesod has its own divine years, also. So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right? u+16b9 --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *13 Aug 2010, 19:30 · in reply to James Wynn* >>> On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:24 PM, James Wynn wrote: >>> YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd >>> ? ? ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... >>> AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn > So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right? Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a previous version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular ours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the Theanthropos. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Lee Berman *13 Aug 2010, 19:43 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* >>> YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd >>> ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... >>> AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn >>> So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right? > Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a > previous version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular > ours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the Theanthropos I hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the Increate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the situation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than Jesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same Christ-figure? Or perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe Briah (n+infinity)? I find these questions difficult. --- ### António Pedro Marques *13 Aug 2010, 19:49 · in reply to Lee Berman* Lee Berman wrote (13-08-2010 20:43): > I hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the > Increate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the > situation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than > Jesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same > Christ-figure? > > Or perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe > Briah (n+infinity)? > > I find these questions difficult. I think any Incarnation will be equivalent, no matter the Briah it appears in. It's the rest of the Briah that may live to a higher or lower standard. I don't think you need worry about the heretical thing. For a professed non-believer, you are impeccable in discussion religious hypotheses. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *13 Aug 2010, 19:51 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:43 PM, Lee Berman wrote: > I hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the > Increate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the > situation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than > Jesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same > Christ-figure? > > Or perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe > Briah (n+infinity)? I presume that the presence of the true Theanthropos in our Universe either (a) causes the sequence to end, or (b) causes it to change radically. Applying the apocalyptic books of the prophets to the structure suggests as much. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Lee Berman *13 Aug 2010, 20:01 · follows Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > I presume that the presence of the true Theanthropos in our Universe > either (a) causes the sequence to end, or (b) causes it to change > radically. Applying the apocalyptic books of the prophets to the > structure suggests as much. Thanks, Dan'l. I find your final sentence especially to be a very interesting response. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *13 Aug 2010, 20:11 · in reply to Lee Berman* Sorry for the accidental send of a meaningless message. Here is what I intended... >> On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 1:01 PM, Lee Berman wrote: >> ... Applying the apocalyptic books of the prophets to the >> structure suggests as much. > Thanks, Dan'l. I find your final sentence especially to be a very interesting > response. Let me clarify: I am not a Bible-crazy. However, I do believe that Wolfe's work is best understood in a Christian (sc. Catholic) perspective, and that includes the Bible. Full disclosure: I'm an adult convert to Catholicism. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Jeff Wilson *14 Aug 2010, 02:08 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On 8/13/2010 2:43 PM, Lee Berman wrote: >>>> YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd >>>> ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... >>>> AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn >>>> So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right? >> Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a >> previous version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular >> ours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the Theanthropos > I hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the > Increate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the > situation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than > Jesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same > Christ-figure? The same, but perhaps he is better received. > Or perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe > Briah (n+infinity)? > > I find these questions difficult. The mathematical term for this would be Briah(aleph). But there can still be Briah(aleph+1). I must second Adam Thornton's recommendation of _Surreal Numbers_, it is the best "pilot hole" I've seen for drilling your way into the intricacies of infinite numbers, and covers things my previous readings and math teachers hadn't. This is not just an egghead math thing, it has real and direct applications to liberal arts, like solving Zeno's paradox. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com IEEE Student Chapter Blog at < http://ieeetamut.org > ``` --- ### David Stockhoff *15 Aug 2010, 20:21 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* Right. Even though Severian is in a far older universe. > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 12:24 PM, James Wynn wrote: > > >>>> YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd >>>> ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... >>>> AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn >>>> >> So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right? >> > Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a > previous version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular > ours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the > Theanthropos. > > --- ### David Stockhoff *15 Aug 2010, 20:22 · in reply to Lee Berman* In n+20, he's BIGGER than Jesus. > Lee Berman wrote: > >>>> YYYYYYYYeeeeeeeessssssssoooooooodddddddd >>>> ...Briah(n-1) Briah(n) Briah(n+1) .... >>>> AAAAbbbbbbbbaaaaddddddddoooonnnn >>>> >> So then, supposedly OUR universe is some Briah (n+)? Do I have this right? >> >> Well, if we take Wolfe at his word when he says that Urth is a >> previous version of Earth, then, yes, that follows -- in particular >> ours is the one into which the Increate is actually born as the Theanthropos >> > > I hope I can be forgiven for this heretical question...but if the > Increate is born as the Theantropos in Briah (n+19), what is the > situation with the Christ figure of Briah (n+20)? Is he better than > Jesus? Or is Jesus perfect so all Briahs above (n+19) have the same > Christ-figure? > > Or perhaps the perfection of Jesus requires that we are in the universe > Briah (n+infinity)? > > I find these questions difficult. > _______________________________________________ ---