{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5712", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5712, "subject": "Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "messages": 24, "voices": 9, "first": "2010-08-14T01:12:49+00:00", "last": "2010-08-17T00:54:13+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T01:12:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nAnd I suspect that you, David, like me, don't trust Gene" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Wolfe further than we can throw him. This is an important difference which\ncreates different\ninterpretations. I detect that Gene wolfe (interviews answers to the\ncontrary aside) has a real\nstreak of disdain for his readers. I actually think there is a conflict set\nup between reader and\nwriter and, unlike some authors, Gene wolfe really doesn't want us ever to\nfully win.\n\nI say disdain because we are treated like dogs. That's what people do with\ndogs and a ball. They\nsay, \"here's the ball, doggie\" then misdirect the poor creature, \"over\nhere, no here, no, here\" and\nthe poor dog's nose gets distracted in the feinted new direction over and\nover again. Perhaps\nWolfe is trying to tell his readers to not get distracted like a dog. The\nbastard." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is interesting. I can see how someone might feel Wolfe has disdain\nfor his readers, but I don't think that's correct. Instead, I think Wolfe\ntries--through unreliable narrators and puzzles and ambiguity and lack of\ninformation and narrative holes--to produce in his writings the experience\nwe get in real life. In our own lives, we can never be completely sure of\nthe truth or people around us or ourselves. So our author gives us partial\nviews and conflicting information and incomplete information.\n\nI don't think there is necessarily one right interpretation to most of the\nworks, especially the longer ones. I'm not convinced that all the\nmysteries and puzzles in Wolfe have definite answers. We're often supposed\nto be puzzled and we can't be sure we've figured a book out, just as we\ncan't be sure we've figured life out." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Best wishes,\nJack" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T02:21:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jack Smith: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This is interesting. I can see how someone might feel Wolfe has disdain\nfor his readers, but I don't think that's correct. Instead, I think Wolfe\ntries--through unreliable narrators and puzzles and ambiguity and lack of\ninformation and narrative holes--to produce in his writings the experience\nwe get in real life. In our own lives, we can never be completely sure of\nthe truth or people around us or ourselves. So our author gives us partial\nviews and conflicting information and incomplete information." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI admit to a penchant for the provocative and theatrical, especially online. \nI hope I am not undercutting your post by mentioning that I did soften this\nassertion in a more recent post by suggesting perhaps Wolfe has disdain for \nfirst time readers but has a soft spot for those who go on to re-read.\n \nAn interesting thought about our real lives and ourselves. I feel pretty \ncomfortable and trusting in most aspects of my life and myself. I'm far more \ntrusting in my real life than I am reading a Gene Wolfe book. But I know\nthere are some who seeth with paranoia and mistrust beneath their surface.\nCould Mr. Wolfe have a streak of this beneath his genial exterior? I think \nmost great artists require great inspiration for their work." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think there is necessarily one right interpretation to most of the\nworks, especially the longer ones. I'm not convinced that all the\nmysteries and puzzles in Wolfe have definite answers. We're often supposed\nto be puzzled and we can't be sure we've figured a book out, just as we\ncan't be sure we've figured life out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I generally agree with this. I think Wolfe has said as much in interviews..that\nsometimes we readers are meant to conclude that there is no solution to a suggested\nmystery in his works. Yet, still, I have found some very subtle answers to puzzles\nwhich suggest there is some stuff still hidden that we have yet to uncover.\n \nMy current favorite glaring example is the grouped sequence of numbers on the Seal\nof Pas in the Long Sun story. In 16 years I am not aware that anyone has made progress \non solving the significance of it. But the intentionally unique grouping and \norganization of these numbers within the text suggest they do have a solution. I will\nadmit that if I somehow learned (impossible unless Gene Wolfe tells us, of course) \nthat there is no solution to this puzzle, I might be forced to consider that he \nhas some disdain even for his multiple-reading fans. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8959133DA9D14EF292EB71B361BAF439@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-14T12:10:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nMy current favorite glaring example is the grouped sequence of numbers on \nthe Seal\nof Pas in the Long Sun story. In 16 years I am not aware that anyone has \nmade progress\non solving the significance of it. But the intentionally unique grouping \nand\norganization of these numbers within the text suggest they do have a \nsolution. I will\nadmit that if I somehow learned (impossible unless Gene Wolfe tells us, of \ncourse)\nthat there is no solution to this puzzle, I might be forced to consider \nthat he\nhas some disdain even for his multiple-reading fans." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I posted on this before: I suggested that the apparent low entropy of the \nnumbers may be in order to add verisimilitude without inplying any specific \nmeaning assigned in the text. Indeed this seems the most likely thing to \nme. I don't see that it involves disdain for readers, even if it does \npermit some readers to chase nonexistent hares. It's not as if he hints \nthat there's some secret significance to the reader in them.\n\nI think the numbers are supposed to indicate something about the contents of \nthe vault to those with an appropriate key, but there is no hint that the \nkey exists.\n\n\"Ora faltig teru dres, ent oru klen rebalen tafru.\" That looks like a \nsentence in a foreign language (either originating in or transcribed into \nthe Latin alphabet). It is not entirely random: I made it to seem \npronouncable.and have a plausible distribution of word lengths etc., even an \necho between 'ora' and 'oru'. But it means nothing! I wrote it and I \ndidn't intend it to mean anything, or have any idea of what it might mean. \nBut I intended it to look plausibly like a meaningful sentence in a real but \nunknown language. If I had occasion to write a story in which the narrator \nhears a snatch of alien speech, I could use it or a similar sentence.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C66907C.60402@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T12:47:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "<8959133DA9D14EF292EB71B361BAF439@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/14/2010 7:10 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\"Ora faltig teru dres, ent oru klen rebalen tafru.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I made it to seem pronouncable.and have a plausible distribution of word lengths etc.,\neven an echo between 'ora' and 'oru'. But it means nothing!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which is it?\n\nI mean, it can't have zero meaning if it reflects your opinion of what \nlexical characteristics are believable by excluding sequences that fail \nto convey that sense. This includes all kinds of contextual information \nabout Indo-European roots and human cognition.\n\nThe above \"dres\" is a fine candidate for \"three\", for instance. If you \nhad plenty of time on your hands and a sufficient command of what had \nbeen actually used as words at some point, you could construct a \nnotional language that included the above phrase that would regardless \nbe as detailed and meaningful as a natural one. Speak friend, and enter!" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5A5E0E53C5B14D1F95E881258C019E1E@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-14T13:43:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "<4C66907C.60402@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nOn 8/14/2010 7:10 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Ora faltig teru dres, ent oru klen rebalen tafru.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I made it to seem pronouncable.and have a plausible distribution of word \nlengths etc.,\neven an echo between 'ora' and 'oru'. But it means nothing!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Which is it?\n\nI mean, it can't have zero meaning if it reflects your opinion of what \nlexical characteristics are believable by excluding sequences that fail to \nconvey that sense. This includes all kinds of contextual information about \nIndo-European roots and human cognition.\n\nThe above \"dres\" is a fine candidate for \"three\", for instance. If you had \nplenty of time on your hands and a sufficient command of what had been \nactually used as words at some point, you could construct a notional \nlanguage that included the above phrase that would regardless be as \ndetailed and meaningful as a natural one. Speak friend, and enter!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It doesn't have 'zero meaning' in the sense you are using it here - but the \nsame can be said of the numbers on Pas's seal, which may reflect Wolfe's \nknowledge about bar codes on groceries, or something equally irrelevant to \nthe Long Sun Whorl. It is my belief that the codes on the seal have no \ndecipherable meaning that adds to our knowledge of that Whorl.\n\nI can assure you that 'dres' was never intended to mean 'three'; I never \nthought of that. At the time I made the sentence, I wrote down fairly \nrandom 'words', certainly using my feel for languages with Indo-European \nroots.. Afterwards as I modified them it may be that I imposed some subtle \nand tentative structure: 'Ora' and 'oru' might indicate two alternatives; \n'ent' may be a conjunction such as 'and' or 'but'; the sentence may \nrepresent a proverb of some kind. These are my guesses, and nobody is \nbetter placed than I to guess! But I still don't know. The sentence has no \nparticular meaning in the sense of a concrete statement about a fictitious \nworld.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T14:00:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "<5A5E0E53C5B14D1F95E881258C019E1E@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- \nI posted on this before: I suggested that the apparent low entropy of the \nnumbers may be in order to add verisimilitude without inplying any specific \nmeaning assigned in the text. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm sorry Gerry, I don't understand what you mean by \"low entropy of the \nnumbers. Could you explan?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"Ora faltig teru dres, ent oru klen rebalen tafru.\" That looks like a \nsentence in a foreign language (either originating in or transcribed into \nthe Latin alphabet). It is not entirely random: I made it to seem \npronouncable.and have a plausible distribution of word lengths etc., even an \necho between 'ora' and 'oru'. But it means nothing! " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI must confess that I am one who becomes quickly annoyed by authors who invent\nalien languages for their text (yes, even you, J.R.R., though you are redeemed \na bit by basing Elvish on Suomi (Finnish)). One of my true pleasures in reading\nGene Wolfe is that he instead takes pains to use extant words (albeit sometimes \nnearly extinct words). \n \nIf Wolfe wants to depict an undecipherable word he does not tend use our alphabet\nto do so. He finds a way to describe the undecipherable symbol with color and/or\nshape and/or descriptors like \"gnostic\" or \"terratoid\".\n \nAs an engineer, I assume Gene Wolfe finds numbers to be almost as important,\nsymbolically, as letters. I would be unpleasantly surprised to learn he has invented\na fake paragraph of numbers when he is so averse to doing that same thing to words. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-14T14:15:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn-\nI posted on this before: I suggested that the apparent low entropy of the\nnumbers may be in order to add verisimilitude without inplying any \nspecific\nmeaning assigned in the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm sorry Gerry, I don't understand what you mean by \"low entropy of the\nnumbers. Could you explan?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can think of it as jargon for \"not random\". They are plainly not a \ncompletely random string of digits. A random string would have maximum \nentropy. There are ways of quantifying the relative degree of disorder; \nsomebody posted on it previously." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Ora faltig teru dres, ent oru klen rebalen tafru.\" That looks like a\nsentence in a foreign language (either originating in or transcribed into\nthe Latin alphabet). It is not entirely random: I made it to seem\npronouncable.and have a plausible distribution of word lengths etc., even \nan\necho between 'ora' and 'oru'. But it means nothing!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I must confess that I am one who becomes quickly annoyed by authors who \ninvent\nalien languages for their text (yes, even you, J.R.R., though you are \nredeemed\na bit by basing Elvish on Suomi (Finnish)). One of my true pleasures in \nreading\nGene Wolfe is that he instead takes pains to use extant words (albeit \nsometimes\nnearly extinct words).\n\nIf Wolfe wants to depict an undecipherable word he does not tend use our \nalphabet\nto do so. He finds a way to describe the undecipherable symbol with color \nand/or\nshape and/or descriptors like \"gnostic\" or \"terratoid\".\n\nAs an engineer, I assume Gene Wolfe finds numbers to be almost as \nimportant,\nsymbolically, as letters. I would be unpleasantly surprised to learn he \nhas invented\na fake paragraph of numbers when he is so averse to doing that same thing \nto words." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But again - verisimiltude! Would Pas's engineers and quartemasters have \nused strings of numbers, or a panoply of teratoid icons? I expect that \nsomewhere in Mainframe is a big list of what all vaults on the Whorl \noriginally contained, indexed by number. In a more controlled \ndisembarkation, instructions would be passed down regarding which were to be \nopened.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T18:41:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- But again - verisimiltude! Would Pas's engineers and quartemasters have \nused strings of numbers, or a panoply of teratoid icons? I expect that \nsomewhere in Mainframe is a big list of what all vaults on the Whorl \noriginally contained, indexed by number. In a more controlled \ndisembarkation, instructions would be passed down regarding which were to be \nopened." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGerry, thanks for the entropy explanation. I understand what you mean.\n \nStill having trouble with your verisimiltude. We understand that Wolfe shows us certain\nsymbols that Severian or Silk is incapable of understanding. My gut feeling is still that\nif Wolfe wanted to depict a number sequence that WE also cannot understand then he would\ndescribe it that way: \"He saw the Seal of Pas and it had a block of incomprehensibly organized \nnumbers\". From this description we just as easily can figure out they are vault container \nindex numbers or whatever.\n \nBy actually giving us the numbers, organized in sequence, I feel Wolfe is expecting us to be\nable to figure them out, even if Silk can't. In similar fashion I don't think Severian really \nknows what teratoid or gnostic symbols are. But WE can interpret that they mean there is \nsomething akin to monsters in Father Inire's wing of the House Absolute and that Witches deal\nin mysterious, arcane knowledge. If he called the symbols an ankh or a swastika, I think\nwe would be expected to come to different conclusions.\n \nAs the numbers are organized into 9 groups of four digits, and each group of four digits adds\nup to a number which is less than 27, my best guess is that it is a cryptogram. Perhaps it\nlists the initials of the 9 gods of the Whorl. Perhaps the cryptogram solves to the 9 letters- \nTyphon-Pas. Or perhaps it spells out the 9 letter name of the true monarch and creator of the \nWhorl, GENE WOLFE. We need more hidden wolves in Long Sun, don't we?\n \nBut since I can't figure out a cryptogram from it that makes any of these work, I must defer to \nyour explanation as the best working hypothesis we have going (that I know of).\n \n5553 8783 4223 9700 34\n2221 0401 1101 7276 56\nSEALED FOR THE MONARCH \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T19:02:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. Wolfe includes these specific numbers for some reason. A lesser\nsci-fi author might just include meaningless digits, but Wolfe, I'm sure,\nhas some meaning in mind.\n\nSomeone originated the idea that the numbers are codes that specify what is\nin each store room. The fact that one number is \"0401\" indicates that this\nis a code rather than a quantity.\n\nIf we had more examples, this puzzle would be easier to figure out. But I\nthink we're supposed to be able to decipher the code what the little we're\ngiven. The numbers must somehow specify people stored in glass bottles.\n But I can't make any sense of them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\n\nif Wolfe wanted to depict a number sequence that WE also cannot understand\nthen he would\ndescribe it that way: \"He saw the Seal of Pas and it had a block of\nincomprehensibly organized\nnumbers\". From this description we just as easily can figure out they are\nvault container\nindex numbers or whatever.\n\nBy actually giving us the numbers, organized in sequence, I feel Wolfe is\nexpecting us to be\nable to figure them out, even if Silk can't. In similar fashion I don't\nthink Severian really\nknows what teratoid or gnostic symbols are. But WE can interpret that they\nmean there is\nsomething akin to monsters in Father Inire's wing of the House Absolute and\nthat Witches deal\nin mysterious, arcane knowledge. If he called the symbols an ankh or a\nswastika, I think\nwe would be expected to come to different conclusions.\n\nAs the numbers are organized into 9 groups of four digits, and each group\nof four digits adds\nup to a number which is less than 27, my best guess is that it is a\ncryptogram. Perhaps it\nlists the initials of the 9 gods of the Whorl. Perhaps the cryptogram\nsolves to the 9 letters-\nTyphon-Pas. Or perhaps it spells out the 9 letter name of the true monarch\nand creator of the\nWhorl, GENE WOLFE. We need more hidden wolves in Long Sun, don't we?\n\nBut since I can't figure out a cryptogram from it that makes any of these\nwork, I must defer to\nyour explanation as the best working hypothesis we have going (that I know\nof).\n\n5553 8783 4223 9700 34\n2221 0401 1101 7276 56\nSEALED FOR THE MONARCH\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T20:14:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Aug 14, 2010 at 2:41 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn- But again - verisimiltude! “Would Pas's engineers and quartemasters have\nused strings of numbers, or a panoply of teratoid icons” ?I expect that\nsomewhere in Mainframe is a big list of what all vaults on the Whorl\noriginally contained, indexed by number. ?In a more controlled\ndisembarkation, instructions would be passed down regarding which were to be\nopened." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry, thanks for the entropy explanation. I understand what you mean.\n\nStill having trouble with your verisimiltude. We understand that Wolfe shows us certain\nsymbols that Severian or Silk is incapable of understanding. ?My gut feeling is still that\nif Wolfe wanted to depict a number sequence that WE also cannot understand then he would\ndescribe it that way: \"He saw the Seal of Pas and it had a block of incomprehensibly organized\nnumbers\". From this description we just as easily can figure out they are vault container\nindex numbers or whatever.\n\nBy actually giving us the numbers, organized in sequence, I feel Wolfe is expecting us to be\nable to figure them out, even if Silk can't. In similar fashion I don't think Severian really\nknows what teratoid or gnostic symbols are. But WE can interpret that they mean there is\nsomething akin to monsters in Father Inire's wing of the House Absolute and that Witches deal\nin mysterious, arcane knowledge. If he called the symbols an ankh or a swastika, I think\nwe would be expected to come to different conclusions.\n\nAs the numbers are organized into 9 groups of four digits, and each group of four digits adds\nup to a number which is less than 27, my best guess is that it is a cryptogram. Perhaps it\nlists the initials of the 9 gods of the Whorl. Perhaps the cryptogram solves to the 9 letters-\nTyphon-Pas. Or perhaps it spells out the 9 letter name of the true monarch and creator of the\nWhorl, GENE WOLFE. We need more hidden wolves in Long Sun, don't we?\n\nBut since I can't figure out a cryptogram from it that makes any of these work, I must defer to\nyour explanation as the best working hypothesis we have going (that I know of).\n\n5553 8783 4223 9700 34\n2221 0401 1101 7276 56\nSEALED FOR THE MONARCH" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would like to be be 'Gene Wolfe' (he is the true monarch of the\nbooks, after all!), but if that's the solution, the cipher must be\nfairly complex - not a straight substitution. Notice that 'Gene Wolfe'\nhas 3 'e's in it, while there's not a single repeated 4 or 2-digit\ngroup.\n\nStaring, I don't see any interesting regularities. There is one\nrepetition in the sum of each group: [18,26,11,16,7,7,5,3,22,21]. mod\n10 doesn't show anything interesting: [8,6,1,6,7,7,5,3,2,1]. mod 2:\n[0,0,1,0,1,1,1,1,0,1]. If we drop the 2 2-digit groups to get\n00101110, that's an ASCII '-', decimal 046, octal 056, and hex 02E.\n\nEach group begins with a different number, covering 0-9 except for 6 -\nwhich has bad connotations religiously, of course. As for end-digits,\nthe 3x2 grid on the left all end in odd numbers - 3 or 1, while the\n2x2 block on the right ends in the even numbers 0, 4, 6. But there is\nso little to go on that this could just be numerology." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C670203.3040006@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-14T20:52:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gwern Branwen wrote:\n5553 8783 4223 9700 34\n2221 0401 1101 7276 56\nSEALED FOR THE MONARCH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I would like to be be 'Gene Wolfe' (he is the true monarch of the\nbooks, after all!), but if that's the solution, the cipher must be\nfairly complex - not a straight substitution. Notice that 'Gene Wolfe'\nhas 3 'e's in it, while there's not a single repeated 4 or 2-digit\ngroup.\n\nStaring, I don't see any interesting regularities. There is one\nrepetition in the sum of each group: [18,26,11,16,7,7,5,3,22,21]. mod\n10 doesn't show anything interesting: [8,6,1,6,7,7,5,3,2,1]. mod 2:\n[0,0,1,0,1,1,1,1,0,1]. If we drop the 2 2-digit groups to get\n00101110, that's an ASCII '-', decimal 046, octal 056, and hex 02E.\n\nEach group begins with a different number, covering 0-9 except for 6 -\nwhich has bad connotations religiously, of course. As for end-digits,\nthe 3x2 grid on the left all end in odd numbers - 3 or 1, while the\n2x2 block on the right ends in the even numbers 0, 4, 6. But there is\nso little to go on that this could just be numerology." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The last columns look like check digits, but there's an infinite way those \ncould be computed.... 3 to 5 is 2, 4 to 6 is 2, but who can guess what that \nmeans.\n\nThe first 3 columns all end in 3 above, 1 below. Chopping that out, the frst \ntwo at least show symmetry - 555/222, 878/040.\n\nI dount we'll get anywhere from the numbers alone. Though if there is \nsomething there to be found, I'd expect it not to be brutally hard. It needs \nto be hard enough for the passer-bys. What do we have different from them \nthat should make it easier to us?\n\nWhy is it sealed for the *monarch*? Is the monarch expected to be moving \naround depot rooms? And how come monarch? He's posing as a god, and his god \npersonality isn't supposed to visit the room, or is it?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C674358.4080801@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T01:31:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nAn interesting thought about our real lives and ourselves. I feel pretty\ncomfortable and trusting in most aspects of my life and myself. I'm far more\ntrusting in my real life than I am reading a Gene Wolfe book. But I know\nthere are some who seeth with paranoia and mistrust beneath their surface.\nCould Mr. Wolfe have a streak of this beneath his genial exterior?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think so. It's just that in your life and yourself you've immersed \nin context. You automagically do all the corrections and substitutions and \ninferences and what not, so you don't notice it. Wolfe has the rare ability \nto see through it and presents the reader with unfamiliar settings where all \nsuch corrections are filtered out." } ] }, { "message_id": "<97E73DA3D69A41E2B03E9CE9CF304B61@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-15T10:03:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nGerry Quinn- But again - verisimiltude! Would Pas's engineers and \nquartemasters have\nused strings of numbers, or a panoply of teratoid icons? I expect that\nsomewhere in Mainframe is a big list of what all vaults on the Whorl\noriginally contained, indexed by number. In a more controlled\ndisembarkation, instructions would be passed down regarding which were to \nbe\nopened." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Still having trouble with your verisimiltude. We understand that Wolfe \nshows us certain\nsymbols that Severian or Silk is incapable of understanding. My gut \nfeeling is still that\nif Wolfe wanted to depict a number sequence that WE also cannot understand \nthen he would\ndescribe it that way: \"He saw the Seal of Pas and it had a block of \nincomprehensibly organized\nnumbers\". From this description we just as easily can figure out they are \nvault container\nindex numbers or whatever.\n\nBy actually giving us the numbers, organized in sequence, I feel Wolfe is \nexpecting us to be\nable to figure them out, even if Silk can't. In similar fashion I don't \nthink Severian really\nknows what teratoid or gnostic symbols are. But WE can interpret that they \nmean there is\nsomething akin to monsters in Father Inire's wing of the House Absolute \nand that Witches deal\nin mysterious, arcane knowledge. If he called the symbols an ankh or a \nswastika, I think\nwe would be expected to come to different conclusions.\n\nAs the numbers are organized into 9 groups of four digits, and each group \nof four digits adds\nup to a number which is less than 27, my best guess is that it is a \ncryptogram. Perhaps it\nlists the initials of the 9 gods of the Whorl. Perhaps the cryptogram \nsolves to the 9 letters-\nTyphon-Pas. Or perhaps it spells out the 9 letter name of the true monarch \nand creator of the\nWhorl, GENE WOLFE. We need more hidden wolves in Long Sun, don't we?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that raises a question. Suppose we convincingly solved such a \ncryptogram. Now, how do we explain the fact of that particular vault under \nViron having a number with this secret meaning?\n\nI think that we cannot, just because Wolfe is the author, assume that some \nelements of a story are not merely 'colour'. It would be very restrictive \nfor Wolfe. Every time a character booked a hotel room, Wolfe would be \nconstrained from saying \"he was given the key to room 167\", for fear that \nreaders would waste time searching for some numerological clue.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T10:59:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "<97E73DA3D69A41E2B03E9CE9CF304B61@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: But that raises a question. Suppose we convincingly solved such a \ncryptogram. Now, how do we explain the fact of that particular vault under \nViron having a number with this secret meaning?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't think we have to. In my opinion Gene Wolfe sometimes puts little \"in-jokes\"\ninto his text which by-pass the characters and go straight from author to reader.\n \nJames' Bee as a *\"hymen*optera\" reference might be an example. We cannot expect\nthat residents of the Whorl are using linnaean taxonomy...but we and Wolfe do. And\nthat shared understanding could work without any need for the characters to understand\n \nOne of my favorites is in Short Sun. Horn asks the woman on his boat her name and\nshe tells him something incomprehensible. So he decides to give her the plant\nname which most resembles what she said, Seawrack.\n \nShe cannot be speaking English, but Wolfe does and we do. So, if it was an English word \nshe had spoken, which would be closest in sound/spelling to Seawrack?\n \nTo me, it is \"shipwreck\". Later we find that she is a siren and her very purpose for \nexistence is to cause shipwrecks. Again, in my opinion, a wordplay that only author and \nreader can understand, not the characters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that we cannot, just because Wolfe is the author, assume that some \nelements of a story are not merely 'colour'. It would be very restrictive \nfor Wolfe. Every time a character booked a hotel room, Wolfe would be \nconstrained from saying \"he was given the key to room 167\", for fear that \nreaders would waste time searching for some numerological clue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For me, #167 could be color.\n \n5553 8783 4223 9700 34\n2221 0401 1101 7276 56\nSEALED FOR THE MONARCH\n \nis probably not. But such things are an individualized intuition. Some might feel\nwolfe would never by-pass his characters with an in-joke to his readers. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C67EAC7.107@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T13:25:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "<97E73DA3D69A41E2B03E9CE9CF304B61@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Lee Berman\" \nOr perhaps it spells out the 9 letter name of the true\nmonarch and creator of the\nWhorl, GENE WOLFE. We need more hidden wolves in Long Sun, don't we?\n\nBut that raises a question. Suppose we convincingly solved such a\ncryptogram. Now, how do we explain the fact of that particular vault\nunder Viron having a number with this secret meaning?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It would be breaching the 4th wall. One needs a little fun every now and \nthen." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that we cannot, just because Wolfe is the author, assume that\nsome elements of a story are not merely 'colour'. It would be very\nrestrictive for Wolfe. Every time a character booked a hotel room, Wolfe\nwould be constrained from saying \"he was given the key to room 167\", for\nfear that readers would waste time searching for some numerological clue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But in fact I think Wolfe would merely say he was given the key to *a* \nroom if the number had no significance. In real life, if the number had \nno singificance, we'd probably just not mention it. Though I also think \nthat the significance of some or even many details can't be determined \nfrom the text, and will never be. I mean, lesser authors sprinkle their \nstories with random detail (if they do at all). But in Wolfe's case (as \nin many other good authors') I fully expect there to be some embryo of \nsignificance there. Even if it may not never be developped anywhere else." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C67FCA0.7040708@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T14:41:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nIn my opinion Gene Wolfe sometimes puts little \"in-jokes\"\ninto his text which by-pass the characters and go straight from author to reader.\n\nJames' Bee as a *\"hymen*optera\" reference might be an example. We cannot expect\nthat residents of the Whorl are using linnaean taxonomy...but we and Wolfe do. And\nthat shared understanding could work without any need for the characters to understand" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think Viron must use linnaean taxonomy or a close cognate of it. At \nleast is an old system that was employed by the Whorl imagineers of \nVironese culture in the same way that the old writings of the \nChrasmological Writings were dredge up willy-nilly. But you're right \nabout the in-jokes. Auk's brother's name is Bustard. Auks and bustards \nare not closely related. But there is a Great Auk and a Great Bustard, \nboth flightless, and both recently extinct.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<07B38D561C374990853DB32A940B73C1@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-08-15T14:54:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "<4C67EAC7.107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Ant?nio Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But that raises a question. Suppose we convincingly solved such a\ncryptogram. Now, how do we explain the fact of that particular vault\nunder Viron having a number with this secret meaning?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It would be breaching the 4th wall. One needs a little fun every now and \nthen." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Writing it would be breaching the 4th wall, surely? Of course, Wolfe does \nthat sometimes, but he does not do it often." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think that we cannot, just because Wolfe is the author, assume that\nsome elements of a story are not merely 'colour'. It would be very\nrestrictive for Wolfe. Every time a character booked a hotel room, Wolfe\nwould be constrained from saying \"he was given the key to room 167\", for\nfear that readers would waste time searching for some numerological clue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But in fact I think Wolfe would merely say he was given the key to *a* \nroom if the number had no significance. In real life, if the number had no \nsingificance, we'd probably just not mention it. Though I also think that \nthe significance of some or even many details can't be determined from the \ntext, and will never be. I mean, lesser authors sprinkle their stories \nwith random detail (if they do at all). But in Wolfe's case (as in many \nother good authors') I fully expect there to be some embryo of \nsignificance there. Even if it may not never be developped anywhere else." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have to stop somewhere. If Wolfe writes \"Three uhlans galloped towards \nus\", must we attempt to decipher the mystical significance of the number \nthree, or just admit that an uhlan patrol must be made up of some number of \nuhlans, and the narrator might instinctively count them?\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6805F9.5050600@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T15:21:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "<07B38D561C374990853DB32A940B73C1@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Ant?nio Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But that raises a question. Suppose we convincingly solved such a\ncryptogram. Now, how do we explain the fact of that particular vault\nunder Viron having a number with this secret meaning?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It would be breaching the 4th wall. One needs a little fun every now\nand then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Writing it would be breaching the 4th wall, surely?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry, my 'would' wasn't meant to use the conclusion to cast doubt on the \ninterpretation, it's just that we're discussing a hypothesis." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, Wolfe\ndoes that sometimes, but he does not do it often." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you do it often, it devolves into comedy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have to stop somewhere. If Wolfe writes \"Three uhlans galloped\ntowards us\", must we attempt to decipher the mystical significance of\nthe number three, or just admit that an uhlan patrol must be made up of\nsome number of uhlans, and the narrator might instinctively count them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You have to stop somewhere. I don't think details are ever insignificant, \nbut sometimes their significance is only in themselves and there is not \npoint in looking beyond. E.g. the fact that they were 3 means they were 3. \nNot 2 and a half or 3.14, but 3." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C68451D.2010902@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-15T19:50:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "<97E73DA3D69A41E2B03E9CE9CF304B61@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/15/2010 5:03 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\nI think that we cannot, just because Wolfe is the author, assume that\nsome elements of a story are not merely 'colour'. It would be very\nrestrictive for Wolfe. Every time a character booked a hotel room, Wolfe\nwould be constrained from saying \"he was given the key to room 167\", for\nfear that readers would waste time searching for some numerological clue." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This can be a valid complaint, but as far as I can tell, Wolfe *likes* \nthis sort of restriction, and takes it as a challenge. How many of his \ncharacters does he go leave visibly anonymous? And then there's the \nwhole doctor/death/island exercise.\n\nConversely, the specifics he does use almost always *are* important \nclues, like every proper name in every story he's ever written. The \nstrings of digits are essentially the name for that storage area, and \nthere's no reason that this one among all the other storage area numbers \nnot given in the story shouldn't have the a special meaning the way that \n666 Saltimbanque has a special meaning despite the zillions of other \naddresses not given in that story." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6869FF.10201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-15T22:28:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I tend to agree with this conclusion, granting that numbers are not \nwords and may be deployed for different reasons. However, digging up and \nputting to work an ancient word is not analogous to creating a code out \nof numbers. In fact, one could argue that making up a code itself \nparallels making up a language, and therefore could be said to be \nsomething Wolfe does not do.\n\nIf the analogy holds up, this set of numbers already has a meaning \noutside the text.\n\nNot much of a clue, I know." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn- \nI posted on this before: I suggested that the apparent low entropy of the \nnumbers may be in order to add verisimilitude without inplying any specific \nmeaning assigned in the text. \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI'm sorry Gerry, I don't understand what you mean by \"low entropy of the \nnumbers. Could you explan?\n \n \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Ora faltig teru dres, ent oru klen rebalen tafru.\" That looks like a \nsentence in a foreign language (either originating in or transcribed into \nthe Latin alphabet). It is not entirely random: I made it to seem \npronouncable.and have a plausible distribution of word lengths etc., even an \necho between 'ora' and 'oru'. But it means nothing! \n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " \nI must confess that I am one who becomes quickly annoyed by authors who invent\nalien languages for their text (yes, even you, J.R.R., though you are redeemed \na bit by basing Elvish on Suomi (Finnish)). One of my true pleasures in reading\nGene Wolfe is that he instead takes pains to use extant words (albeit sometimes \nnearly extinct words). \n \nIf Wolfe wants to depict an undecipherable word he does not tend use our alphabet\nto do so. He finds a way to describe the undecipherable symbol with color and/or\nshape and/or descriptors like \"gnostic\" or \"terratoid\".\n \nAs an engineer, I assume Gene Wolfe finds numbers to be almost as important,\nsymbolically, as letters. I would be unpleasantly surprised to learn he has invented\na fake paragraph of numbers when he is so averse to doing that same thing to words. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6883F6.1020903@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-16T00:19:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "<4C670203.3040006@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon was monarch. He built the Whorl." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nGwern Branwen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "5553 8783 4223 9700 34\n2221 0401 1101 7276 56\nSEALED FOR THE MONARCH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I would like to be be 'Gene Wolfe' (he is the true monarch of the\nbooks, after all!), but if that's the solution, the cipher must be\nfairly complex - not a straight substitution. Notice that 'Gene Wolfe'\nhas 3 'e's in it, while there's not a single repeated 4 or 2-digit\ngroup.\n\nStaring, I don't see any interesting regularities. There is one\nrepetition in the sum of each group: [18,26,11,16,7,7,5,3,22,21]. mod\n10 doesn't show anything interesting: [8,6,1,6,7,7,5,3,2,1]. mod 2:\n[0,0,1,0,1,1,1,1,0,1]. If we drop the 2 2-digit groups to get\n00101110, that's an ASCII '-', decimal 046, octal 056, and hex 02E.\n\nEach group begins with a different number, covering 0-9 except for 6 -\nwhich has bad connotations religiously, of course. As for end-digits,\nthe 3x2 grid on the left all end in odd numbers - 3 or 1, while the\n2x2 block on the right ends in the even numbers 0, 4, 6. But there is\nso little to go on that this could just be numerology." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The last columns look like check digits, but there's an infinite way \nthose could be computed.... 3 to 5 is 2, 4 to 6 is 2, but who can \nguess what that means.\n\nThe first 3 columns all end in 3 above, 1 below. Chopping that out, \nthe frst two at least show symmetry - 555/222, 878/040.\n\nI dount we'll get anywhere from the numbers alone. Though if there is \nsomething there to be found, I'd expect it not to be brutally hard. It \nneeds to be hard enough for the passer-bys. What do we have different \nfrom them that should make it easier to us?\n\nWhy is it sealed for the *monarch*? Is the monarch expected to be \nmoving around depot rooms? And how come monarch? He's posing as a god, \nand his god personality isn't supposed to visit the room, or is it?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6888F5.1090606@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T00:40:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "<4C6883F6.1020903@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gwern Branwen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "5553 8783 4223 9700 34\n2221 0401 1101 7276 56\nSEALED FOR THE MONARCH" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why is it sealed for the *monarch*? Is the monarch expected to be\nmoving around depot rooms? And how come monarch? He's posing as a god,\nand his god personality isn't supposed to visit the room, or is it?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon was monarch. He built the Whorl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's the seal of the god Pas, who created the Whorl,\nnot the seal of the monarch Typhon, who built the Whorl." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2010-08-16T13:46:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Aug 13, 2010 at 10:21 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nMy current favorite glaring example is the grouped sequence of numbers on\nthe Seal\nof Pas in the Long Sun story. In 16 years I am not aware that anyone has\nmade progress\non solving the significance of it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I previously posted a description of how some blocks could be used as a\nchecksum for others:\nhttp://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/2010-July/016516.html." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C69DDB5.6060907@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-17T00:54:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wolfe's Attitude toward his Readers", "in_reply_to": "<07B38D561C374990853DB32A940B73C1@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Room #167 provides information. Depending on the hotel, it might be a \nroom on the ground floor or one up. That's basic information." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Ant?nio Marques\" \nGerry Quinn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "But that raises a question. Suppose we convincingly solved such a\ncryptogram. Now, how do we explain the fact of that particular vault\nunder Viron having a number with this secret meaning?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It would be breaching the 4th wall. One needs a little fun every now \nand then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Writing it would be breaching the 4th wall, surely? Of course, Wolfe \ndoes that sometimes, but he does not do it often." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I think that we cannot, just because Wolfe is the author, assume that\nsome elements of a story are not merely 'colour'. It would be very\nrestrictive for Wolfe. Every time a character booked a hotel room, \nWolfe\nwould be constrained from saying \"he was given the key to room 167\", \nfor\nfear that readers would waste time searching for some numerological \nclue." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "But in fact I think Wolfe would merely say he was given the key to \n*a* room if the number had no significance. In real life, if the \nnumber had no singificance, we'd probably just not mention it. Though \nI also think that the significance of some or even many details can't \nbe determined from the text, and will never be. I mean, lesser \nauthors sprinkle their stories with random detail (if they do at \nall). But in Wolfe's case (as in many other good authors') I fully \nexpect there to be some embryo of significance there. Even if it may \nnot never be developped anywhere else." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "You have to stop somewhere. If Wolfe writes \"Three uhlans galloped \ntowards us\", must we attempt to decipher the mystical significance of \nthe number three, or just admit that an uhlan patrol must be made up \nof some number of uhlans, and the narrator might instinctively count \nthem?\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }