{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5714", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5714, "subject": "Madregot & Yesod Redux", "messages": 8, "voices": 4, "first": "2010-08-16T02:31:40+00:00", "last": "2010-08-18T01:22:30+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-16T02:31:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Madregot & Yesod Redux", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With all the question flying around about Yesod I decided to really re-check\nthe text on Brook Madregot. I felt the answers would be there and I do think \nI have a clearer view of what is going on now.\n \nTinkerbell Tzadkiel say Brook Madregot runs from Yesod to Briah. The \"glory of \nYesod \"upstream to the \"destruction of Briah downstream. Juturna confirms that it \n\"rises in Yesod and rushes to Briah\".\n\nSeverian uses Madregot (there is a meadow also) to travel four times. The first\nis from Tzadkiel's \"skipper's quarter\" to Severian's stateroom. Later he uses the \nBrook for time travel. We are not told which direction he moves except once. In \nhis trip from Typhon's rule to Valeria's rule he takes 7 strides downstream. so \nwe learn that downstream carries him to the future.\n \nBrook Madregot doesn't represent time as much as energy and entropy. Entropy \nincreases as you move through time, so Yesod, with higher energy, lower entropy\nwould seem to be in the past from Briah\n \nDowstream is to the future, and Yesod is upstream, I think we must conclude that \nYesod is in the past from Briah. I think this is confirmed by Tony Ellis' observation \nthat the Ship travels backward in time to get to Yesod. \n \nWith regard to branching, I will speculate that Brook Madregot is a straight, single\npath as Severian moves (upstream) toward the past. The past, his orgin, is fixed. \nSeverian only encounters branchings as he makes the long, future-ward journey all\nthe way from Apu Punchau to the blossoming of Ushas.\n \nOne other feature about Brook Madregot is that tinkerbell Tzadkiel warns Severian\n\"Don't jump across it though, or you'll end up in another place\". I'm not sure what\nthat means..perhaps that there is spatial travel involved in Madregot also and \nSeverian doesn't want to step out onto a place in Briah which isn't Urth/Ushas.\n \nAs the Jordan-Wolfe interview clearly suggests that Urth is a past iteration of Earth \nI think this rules out the guess that Yesod is our universe. Too bad. It would have been \nnice to get Jesus worked into the story somehow, however tangentially. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6A73B7.2020801@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-17T11:34:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Madregot & Yesod Redux", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why do you think this rules that out?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nWith all the question flying around about Yesod I decided to really re-check\nthe text on Brook Madregot. I felt the answers would be there and I do think \nI have a clearer view of what is going on now.\n \n..............................................\n \nAs the Jordan-Wolfe interview clearly suggests that Urth is a past iteration of Earth \nI think this rules out the guess that Yesod is our universe. Too bad. It would have been \nnice to get Jesus worked into the story somehow, however tangentially. \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________\nUrth Mailing List\nTo post, write urth at urth.net" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-17T12:38:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Madregot & Yesod Redux", "in_reply_to": "<4C6A73B7.2020801@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As the Jordan-Wolfe interview clearly suggests that Urth is a past iteration of Earth \nI think this rules out the guess that Yesod is our universe. Too bad. It would have been \nnice to get Jesus worked into the story somehow, however tangentially." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- Why do you think this rules that out?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIf Earth is a future manvantara version of Urth and Yesod is in the past from Urth it \nwould seem that Earth cannot be in Yesod. \n \nBut that's just being logical. I don't really claim that the puny mental tools of a\nprimate species from a small blue planet on the edge of the galaxy are sufficient to grasp \nthe universe and beyond. \n\nBut perhaps my logic is faulty. Do you see an alternate interpretation? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6A86A6.90103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-17T12:55:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Madregot & Yesod Redux", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (17-08-2010 13:38):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As the Jordan-Wolfe interview clearly suggests that Urth is a past\niteration of Earth I think this rules out the guess that Yesod is our\nuniverse. Too bad. It would have been nice to get Jesus worked into the\nstory somehow, however tangentially." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff- Why do you think this rules that out?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Earth is a future manvantara version of Urth and Yesod is in the past\nfrom Urth it would seem that Earth cannot be in Yesod.\n\nBut that's just being logical. I don't really claim that the puny mental\ntools of a primate species from a small blue planet on the edge of the\ngalaxy are sufficient to grasp the universe and beyond.\n\nBut perhaps my logic is faulty. Do you see an alternate interpretation?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the umpteenth time, temporality across universes is meaningless. Earth \ncan be both in Urth's 'past' and 'future'. If you like it, Briah gnabs into \nYesod and Yesod gnabs into Briah.\n\nNot that I think Earth is in Yesod - for the quite simple reason that \nthere's zilch about Yesod that connects it to us. One might as well wonder \nwhether Winston Churchill worked as a postman in Togo in his spare time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<955444.41197.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-17T20:20:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Madregot & Yesod Redux", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I didn't put the question well. You said, \"It would have been nice to get Jesus worked into the story somehow, however tangentially.\"\n\nThat's what I don't see as ruled out.\n\n--- On Tue, 8/17/10, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) Madregot & Yesod Redux\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 8:38 AM\nAs the Jordan-Wolfe interview clearly suggests that Urth is a past iteration of Earth \nI think this rules out the guess that Yesod is our universe. Too bad. It would have been \nnice to get Jesus worked into the story somehow, however tangentially." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- Why do you think this rules that out?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIf Earth is a future manvantara version of Urth and Yesod is in the past from Urth it \nwould seem that Earth cannot be in Yesod. \n \nBut that's just being logical. I don't really claim that the puny mental tools of a\nprimate species from a small blue planet on the edge of the galaxy are sufficient to grasp \nthe universe and beyond. \n\nBut perhaps my logic is faulty. Do you see an alternate interpretation? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<699288.88422.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-17T20:22:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Madregot & Yesod Redux", "in_reply_to": "<4C6A86A6.90103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes and no. We are told the universes \"advance.\" There must be sequence even if time itself is meaningless.\n\n--- On Tue, 8/17/10, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\nFrom: Ant?nio Pedro Marques \nSubject: Re: (urth) Madregot & Yesod Redux\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 8:55 AM\n\nLee Berman wrote (17-08-2010 13:38):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "As the Jordan-Wolfe interview clearly suggests that Urth is a past\niteration of Earth I think this rules out the guess that Yesod is our\nuniverse. Too bad. It would have been nice to get Jesus worked into the\nstory somehow, however tangentially." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff- Why do you think this rules that out?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If Earth is a future manvantara version of Urth and Yesod is in the past\nfrom Urth it would seem that Earth cannot be in Yesod.\n\nBut that's just being logical. I don't really claim that the puny mental\ntools of a primate species from a small blue planet on the edge of the\ngalaxy are sufficient to grasp the universe and beyond.\n\nBut perhaps my logic is faulty. Do you see an alternate interpretation?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For the umpteenth time, temporality across universes is meaningless. Earth \ncan be both in Urth's 'past' and 'future'. If you like it, Briah gnabs into \nYesod and Yesod gnabs into Briah.\n\nNot that I think Earth is in Yesod - for the quite simple reason that \nthere's zilch about Yesod that connects it to us. One might as well wonder \nwhether Winston Churchill worked as a postman in Togo in his spare time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6B072B.4050405@hyraxes.com>", "from": { "name": "Dave Lebling", "address": "dlebling at hyraxes.com" }, "date": "2010-08-17T22:03:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Madregot & Yesod Redux", "in_reply_to": "<955444.41197.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "When I first read SotT, when it first came out, my interpretation was \nthat references to the Conciliator were to Jesus. I am not 100% certain \neven today that when he wrote the original four books Wolfe didn't feel \nthe same way.\n\n-- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nI didn't put the question well. You said, \"It would have been nice to \nget Jesus worked into the story somehow, however tangentially.\"\n\nThat's what I don't see as ruled out." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-18T01:22:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Madregot & Yesod Redux", "in_reply_to": "<4C6B072B.4050405@hyraxes.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Lebling- When I first read SotT, when it first came out, my interpretation was \nthat references to the Conciliator were to Jesus. I am not 100% certain \neven today that when he wrote the original four books Wolfe didn't feel \nthe same way." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- I didn't put the question well. You said, \"It would have been nice to \nget Jesus worked into the story somehow, however tangentially.\"That's what I don't see as \nruled out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI also saw some echo of Jesus in the Conciliator on first reading. I remain convinced that\nUrth never had a Jesus nor a Flood and that's why it is the way it is and why it needed\nSeverian. \n \n(FWIW, Jesus doesn't seem a strong presence on Saint Croix or Sainte Anne either..I think \nWolfe was going through a dark period in his life in the 70's)\n \nAnyway, the absence of Jesus makes His presence felt through the story anyway. But it \nwould be nice if we knew where he was going to eventually turn up and if it is anywhere\nin the story, I'd say the most likely place would be Yesod, after the Hierogrammates\nfinish building all the planets and stars including Earth and Sol. If we have to bend\nwhat we think is logical time to have him, then so be it. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }