# Madregot & Yesod Redux *The Urth list — 8 messages, 4 voices, 16 Aug 2010* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Lee Berman *16 Aug 2010, 02:31* With all the question flying around about Yesod I decided to really re-check the text on Brook Madregot. I felt the answers would be there and I do think I have a clearer view of what is going on now. Tinkerbell Tzadkiel say Brook Madregot runs from Yesod to Briah. The "glory of Yesod "upstream to the "destruction of Briah downstream. Juturna confirms that it "rises in Yesod and rushes to Briah". Severian uses Madregot (there is a meadow also) to travel four times. The first is from Tzadkiel's "skipper's quarter" to Severian's stateroom. Later he uses the Brook for time travel. We are not told which direction he moves except once. In his trip from Typhon's rule to Valeria's rule he takes 7 strides downstream. so we learn that downstream carries him to the future. Brook Madregot doesn't represent time as much as energy and entropy. Entropy increases as you move through time, so Yesod, with higher energy, lower entropy would seem to be in the past from Briah Dowstream is to the future, and Yesod is upstream, I think we must conclude that Yesod is in the past from Briah. I think this is confirmed by Tony Ellis' observation that the Ship travels backward in time to get to Yesod. With regard to branching, I will speculate that Brook Madregot is a straight, single path as Severian moves (upstream) toward the past. The past, his orgin, is fixed. Severian only encounters branchings as he makes the long, future-ward journey all the way from Apu Punchau to the blossoming of Ushas. One other feature about Brook Madregot is that tinkerbell Tzadkiel warns Severian "Don't jump across it though, or you'll end up in another place". I'm not sure what that means..perhaps that there is spatial travel involved in Madregot also and Severian doesn't want to step out onto a place in Briah which isn't Urth/Ushas. As the Jordan-Wolfe interview clearly suggests that Urth is a past iteration of Earth I think this rules out the guess that Yesod is our universe. Too bad. It would have been nice to get Jesus worked into the story somehow, however tangentially. --- ### David Stockhoff *17 Aug 2010, 11:34 · in reply to Lee Berman* Why do you think this rules that out? > Lee Berman wrote: > With all the question flying around about Yesod I decided to really re-check > the text on Brook Madregot. I felt the answers would be there and I do think > I have a clearer view of what is going on now. > > .............................................. > > As the Jordan-Wolfe interview clearly suggests that Urth is a past iteration of Earth > I think this rules out the guess that Yesod is our universe. Too bad. It would have been > nice to get Jesus worked into the story somehow, however tangentially. > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth at urth.net --- ### Lee Berman *17 Aug 2010, 12:38 · follows David Stockhoff* > As the Jordan-Wolfe interview clearly suggests that Urth is a past iteration of Earth > I think this rules out the guess that Yesod is our universe. Too bad. It would have been > nice to get Jesus worked into the story somehow, however tangentially. > David Stockhoff- Why do you think this rules that out? If Earth is a future manvantara version of Urth and Yesod is in the past from Urth it would seem that Earth cannot be in Yesod. But that's just being logical. I don't really claim that the puny mental tools of a primate species from a small blue planet on the edge of the galaxy are sufficient to grasp the universe and beyond. But perhaps my logic is faulty. Do you see an alternate interpretation? --- ### António Pedro Marques *17 Aug 2010, 12:55 · in reply to Lee Berman* Lee Berman wrote (17-08-2010 13:38): >> As the Jordan-Wolfe interview clearly suggests that Urth is a past >> iteration of Earth I think this rules out the guess that Yesod is our >> universe. Too bad. It would have been nice to get Jesus worked into the >> story somehow, however tangentially. >> David Stockhoff- Why do you think this rules that out? > If Earth is a future manvantara version of Urth and Yesod is in the past > from Urth it would seem that Earth cannot be in Yesod. > > But that's just being logical. I don't really claim that the puny mental > tools of a primate species from a small blue planet on the edge of the > galaxy are sufficient to grasp the universe and beyond. > > But perhaps my logic is faulty. Do you see an alternate interpretation? For the umpteenth time, temporality across universes is meaningless. Earth can be both in Urth's 'past' and 'future'. If you like it, Briah gnabs into Yesod and Yesod gnabs into Briah. Not that I think Earth is in Yesod - for the quite simple reason that there's zilch about Yesod that connects it to us. One might as well wonder whether Winston Churchill worked as a postman in Togo in his spare time. --- ### DAVID STOCKHOFF *17 Aug 2010, 20:20 · in reply to Lee Berman* I didn't put the question well. You said, "It would have been nice to get Jesus worked into the story somehow, however tangentially." That's what I don't see as ruled out. --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Lee Berman wrote: > From: Lee Berman > Subject: (urth) Madregot & Yesod Redux > To: urth at lists.urth.net > Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 8:38 AM > As the Jordan-Wolfe interview clearly suggests that Urth is a past iteration of Earth > I think this rules out the guess that Yesod is our universe. Too bad. It would have been > nice to get Jesus worked into the story somehow, however tangentially. > David Stockhoff- Why do you think this rules that out? If Earth is a future manvantara version of Urth and Yesod is in the past from Urth it would seem that Earth cannot be in Yesod. But that's just being logical. I don't really claim that the puny mental tools of a primate species from a small blue planet on the edge of the galaxy are sufficient to grasp the universe and beyond. But perhaps my logic is faulty. Do you see an alternate interpretation? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? --- ### DAVID STOCKHOFF *17 Aug 2010, 20:22 · in reply to António Pedro Marques* Yes and no. We are told the universes "advance." There must be sequence even if time itself is meaningless. --- On Tue, 8/17/10, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques Subject: Re: (urth) Madregot & Yesod Redux To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Tuesday, August 17, 2010, 8:55 AM Lee Berman wrote (17-08-2010 13:38): >> As the Jordan-Wolfe interview clearly suggests that Urth is a past >> iteration of Earth I think this rules out the guess that Yesod is our >> universe. Too bad. It would have been nice to get Jesus worked into the >> story somehow, however tangentially. >> David Stockhoff- Why do you think this rules that out? > If Earth is a future manvantara version of Urth and Yesod is in the past > from Urth it would seem that Earth cannot be in Yesod. > > But that's just being logical. I don't really claim that the puny mental > tools of a primate species from a small blue planet on the edge of the > galaxy are sufficient to grasp the universe and beyond. > > But perhaps my logic is faulty. Do you see an alternate interpretation? For the umpteenth time, temporality across universes is meaningless. Earth can be both in Urth's 'past' and 'future'. If you like it, Briah gnabs into Yesod and Yesod gnabs into Briah. Not that I think Earth is in Yesod - for the quite simple reason that there's zilch about Yesod that connects it to us. One might as well wonder whether Winston Churchill worked as a postman in Togo in his spare time. --- ### Dave Lebling *17 Aug 2010, 22:03 · in reply to DAVID STOCKHOFF* When I first read SotT, when it first came out, my interpretation was that references to the Conciliator were to Jesus. I am not 100% certain even today that when he wrote the original four books Wolfe didn't feel the same way. -- Dave Lebling, aka vizcacha > DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote: > I didn't put the question well. You said, "It would have been nice to > get Jesus worked into the story somehow, however tangentially." > > That's what I don't see as ruled out. --- ### Lee Berman *18 Aug 2010, 01:22 · follows Dave Lebling* > Dave Lebling- When I first read SotT, when it first came out, my interpretation was > that references to the Conciliator were to Jesus. I am not 100% certain > even today that when he wrote the original four books Wolfe didn't feel > the same way. > David Stockhoff- I didn't put the question well. You said, "It would have been nice to > get Jesus worked into the story somehow, however tangentially."That's what I don't see as > ruled out. I also saw some echo of Jesus in the Conciliator on first reading. I remain convinced that Urth never had a Jesus nor a Flood and that's why it is the way it is and why it needed Severian. (FWIW, Jesus doesn't seem a strong presence on Saint Croix or Sainte Anne either..I think Wolfe was going through a dark period in his life in the 70's) Anyway, the absence of Jesus makes His presence felt through the story anyway. But it would be nice if we knew where he was going to eventually turn up and if it is anywhere in the story, I'd say the most likely place would be Yesod, after the Hierogrammates finish building all the planets and stars including Earth and Sol. If we have to bend what we think is logical time to have him, then so be it. ---