{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5720", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5720, "subject": "Seven American Nights procession", "messages": 8, "voices": 3, "first": "2010-08-17T13:34:11+00:00", "last": "2010-08-20T01:40:36+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-08-17T13:34:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seven American Nights procession", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I had a question about the day of the week of the final day described in\n\"Seven American Nights.\" The main clue is an outdoor procession Nadan\nsupposedly witnessed on that day:\n\n*A very old man -- I suppose a priest -- carried a cross on a long pole,\nusing it as a staff, and almost as a crutch. A much younger one, fat and\nsweating, walked backwards before him swinging a smoking censor. Two robed\nboys carrying large candles proceeded them, and they were followed by more\nrobed children, singing, who fought with nudges and pinches when they felt\nthe fat man was not watching them.*\n*\n*\n*...the entire procession, from the flickering candles in clear sunshine, to\nthe dead leader lifted up, to his inattentive, bickering followers behind --\nseemed to me to incarnate the philosophy and the dilemma of these people...\nI realized that its ritualized plea for life renewed was more foreign to\nthem than to me.*\n\nBorksi says this is a stations of the cross procession for Good Friday.\nOthers think it was an Easter Sunday procession. I'm not sure, and I'm not\nfamiliar enough with Catholic ritual to tell the difference. It matters for\nthe symbolism of the story.\n\nWe also have the statement by Ardis, \"Tomorrow night the theater will be\nclosed for Easter, and you can take me to a party.\" She said that the day\nbefore the procession. It's barely possible the theater would be closed for\nGood Friday and she would still say the same thing, but the fallen America\ndoesn't seem that religious." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6BD02C.1090209@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-18T12:21:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seven American Nights procession", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "A theater could be closed \"for Easter\" on a Saturday. That would make it \na Good Friday procession. And Saturdays are party nights." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nI had a question about the day of the week of the final day described \nin \"Seven American Nights.\" The main clue is an outdoor procession \nNadan supposedly witnessed on that day:\n\n/A very old man -- I suppose a priest -- carried a cross on a long \npole, using it as a staff, and almost as a crutch. A much younger one, \nfat and sweating, walked backwards before him swinging a smoking \ncensor. Two robed boys carrying large candles proceeded them, and they \nwere followed by more robed children, singing, who fought with nudges \nand pinches when they felt the fat man was not watching them./\n/\n/\n/...the entire procession, from the flickering candles in clear \nsunshine, to the dead leader lifted up, to his inattentive, bickering \nfollowers behind -- seemed to me to incarnate the philosophy and the \ndilemma of these people... I realized that its ritualized plea for \nlife renewed was more foreign to them than to me./\n\nBorksi says this is a stations of the cross procession for Good \nFriday. Others think it was an Easter Sunday procession. I'm not sure, \nand I'm not familiar enough with Catholic ritual to tell the \ndifference. It matters for the symbolism of the story.\n\nWe also have the statement by Ardis, \"Tomorrow night the theater will \nbe closed for Easter, and you can take me to a party.\" She said that \nthe day before the procession. It's barely possible the theater would \nbe closed for Good Friday and she would still say the same thing, but \nthe fallen America doesn't seem that religious.\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-08-18T13:53:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seven American Nights procession", "in_reply_to": "<4C6BD02C.1090209@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nA theater could be closed \"for Easter\" on a Saturday. That would make it a\nGood Friday procession. And Saturdays are party nights." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You can't have a Good Friday parade on Holy Saturday, I don't think. The\nparty was on the evening of the day he saw the procession. (It's my theory,\nhowever, that nothing described on the last day is real. I think it was all\nforged by the American secret police, who wanted Nadan to disappear.)\n\nCase for Good Friday:\nSinging was plaintive? \"ritual pleas for renewal of life.\"\nA crucifix rather than an empty cross? \"the dead leader lifted up\"\n\nCase against it:\nNot done at night (but that might be too dangerous).\nOdd theater closing day.\n\nCase for Holy Saturday:\nGood party day.\n\nCase against it:\nI've never heard of Holy Saturday processions.\n\nCase for Easter Sunday:\nGood party day (though maybe not for costume parties).\nProcessions of this sort are done around the world on Easter Sunday." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6C664F.2010708@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-18T23:01:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seven American Nights procession", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I thought you said the party was to be \"tomorrow\" night. I haven't \nlooked it up, but if that's the case, then today is the procession and \ntomorrow is Saturday. A theater would be closed all that weekend if \nSunday is Easter.\n\nIf it's Saturday, none of it makes sense.\n\nIf it's Sunday, the theater would be closed Monday night anyway, so it \nmakes no sense." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff wrote:\n\n A theater could be closed \"for Easter\" on a Saturday. That would\n make it a Good Friday procession. And Saturdays are party nights.\n\n\nYou can't have a Good Friday parade on Holy Saturday, I don't think. \nThe party was on the evening of the day he saw the procession. (It's \nmy theory, however, that nothing described on the last day is real. I \nthink it was all forged by the American secret police, who wanted \nNadan to disappear.)\n\nCase for Good Friday:\nSinging was plaintive? \"ritual pleas for renewal of life.\"\nA crucifix rather than an empty cross? \"the dead leader lifted up\"\n\nCase against it:\nNot done at night (but that might be too dangerous).\nOdd theater closing day.\n\nCase for Holy Saturday:\nGood party day.\n\nCase against it:\nI've never heard of Holy Saturday processions.\n\nCase for Easter Sunday:\nGood party day (though maybe not for costume parties).\nProcessions of this sort are done around the world on Easter Sunday.\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-08-19T04:05:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seven American Nights procession", "in_reply_to": "<4C6C664F.2010708@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stockhoff wrote:\n\nI thought you said the party was to be \"tomorrow\" night. I haven't\nlooked it up, but if that's the case, then today is the procession and\ntomorrow is Saturday. A theater would be closed all that weekend if\nSunday is Easter.\n\n\nI'm sorry I wasn't clear about the context. Let's call them Day N and Day N+1.\n\nOn Day N, Nadan sees his last performance of \"Mary Rose\" (actually he\nperforms in it himself). Afterwards he goes home with Ardis and has\nsex with her. As he is leaving for his hotel, she tells him, \"You will\nsee me tomorrow. You're going to take me boating and we'll picnic by\nthe water. Tomorrow night the theater will be closed for Easter, and\nyou can take me to a party.\"\n\nNadan returns to his hotel that night and finds his room disturbed, an\negg taken, and his journal moved. He strips certain pages out of the\njournal and... (I say the police return and arrest him and he is seen\nno more).\n\nOn Day N+1, the journal continues the story. Nadan and Ardis walk up\nthe shore from his hotel near the Arena Theater to the Jefferson\nMemorial (this is impossible, if you check a Washington map). They do\nall the picnic and boating things exactly as she described. On the\nwalk back to the hotel, they see the procession. That night they\nattend a costume party (both in disguises that would easily conceal\ntheir identities if impersonators did it in their place). They go back\nto Ardis' place and Nadan lights some arrack in order to see her\nnaked. He supposedly sees she is a werewolf monster, perhaps the very\none he shot at before, so he kills her.\n\nSo the options are:\n\nN = Thursday, N+1 = Friday\nSymbolically this is great. Nadan gets arrested on Thursday night,\nlike Jesus. The story has parallel to a passion play, with Ardis as\nJudas. I like this a lot, except for the theater being closed on\nFriday for Easter.\n\nN = Friday, N+1 = Saturday\nMaybe this isn't so bad. Like you say, the theater could be closed the\nwhole weekend for Easter. There may be processions that would normally\nbe held Friday night or very early on Easter morning that were moved\nto Saturday mid-day for safety. Nobody wants to be out at night with\nwerewolves around.\n N = Saturday, N+1 = Sunday\nThis has the theater open on Saturday but closed on Easter Sunday, and\na procession late in the day for Easter itself. Again, a mid-day hour\nmight be selected for safety. The symbolic revelation of a negative\nEaster (either an Ardis monster or an American plot) is reasonable." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6D6E4E.7010102@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-19T17:47:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seven American Nights procession", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 8/18/2010 11:05 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nN = Thursday, N+1 = Friday\nSymbolically this is great. Nadan gets arrested on Thursday night, \nlike Jesus. The story has parallel to a passion play, with Ardis as \nJudas. I like this a lot, except for the theater being closed on \nFriday for Easter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thematically, this also makes sense because after the procession, the \ntext says: \"It is very late-three, my watch says.\" Three o'clock is the \nhour of Christ's death.\n\nAdditionally, the procession with the priest carrying the cross \"like a \ncrutch\" is surely Good Friday.\n\nWhen Ardis said \"Tomorrow night the theater will be closed early for \nEaster.\" It is not unreasonable that she meant Easter weekend. And if \nthe city has a large enough Catholic population to allow for public Good \nFriday processions, then it is not unreasonable that the theater to be \nclosed IN THE EVENING on that day.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<764304.1783.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-19T18:59:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seven American Nights procession", "in_reply_to": "<4C6D6E4E.7010102@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ah, closed EARLY for Easter. Of course. \n\nI was going to check the text before I said anything, but James is right--- everything depends on how Catholic are the customs of the city. In Philadelphia, for example, everything shuts down on Easter weekend, starting Friday afternoon if not morning.\n\nThis custom may seem strange to those who did not grow up with it.\n\n--- On Thu, 8/19/10, James Wynn wrote:\n\nFrom: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Seven American Nights procession\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, August 19, 2010, 1:47 PM\n\n\n\n \n\n \n \n On 8/18/2010 11:05 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\n \n N = Thursday, N+1 = FridaySymbolically this is great. Nadan gets arrested on Thursday night, like Jesus. The story has parallel to a passion play, with Ardis as Judas. I like this a lot, except for the theater being closed on Friday for Easter.\n \n \n\n Thematically, this also makes sense because after the procession,\n the text says: \"It is very late-three, my watch says.\" Three o'clock\n is the hour of Christ's death. \n\n \n\n Additionally, the procession with the priest carrying the cross\n \"like a crutch\" is surely Good Friday.\n\n \n\n When Ardis said \"Tomorrow night the theater will be closed early for\n Easter.\" It is not unreasonable that she meant Easter weekend. And\n if the city has a large enough Catholic population to allow for\n public Good Friday processions, then it is not unreasonable that the\n theater to be closed IN THE EVENING on that day.\n\n \n\n u+16b9\n\n \n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-08-20T01:40:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seven American Nights procession", "in_reply_to": "<764304.1783.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n\nThematically, this also makes sense because after the procession, the\n\ntext says: \"It is very late-three, my watch says.\" Three o'clock is the\n\nhour of Christ's death." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Additionally, the procession with the priest carrying the cross \"like a" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "crutch\" is surely Good Friday." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Ardis said \"Tomorrow night the theater will be closed early for" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Easter.\" It is not unreasonable that she meant Easter weekend. And if\n\nthe city has a large enough Catholic population to allow for public Good\n\nFriday processions, then it is not unreasonable that the theater to be\n\nclosed IN THE EVENING on that day.\n\n\nI don't see the word \"early\" in the text, but that's still fine. I\ndon't think the theater does matinees, anyway. I'm convinced that Good\nFriday is the intended day, and thanks for finding yet another Passion\nreference. The more I look for them in this story, the more I find." } ] } ] }