{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5721", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5721, "subject": "Path of Air", "messages": 26, "voices": 8, "first": "2010-08-18T11:58:43+00:00", "last": "2010-08-23T06:59:14+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-18T11:58:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Light and gravity are common and cheaper than dirt on Urth, while time \ntravel requires a huge undertaking." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAh, now I understand your reluctance to invoke time travel. That kind is a huge undertaking.\nBut how much effort did Severian spend to travel to the future to see Ragnarok? A flight or two \nof stairs. He actually WAS in the future, not just observing it, since the upper levels of the \nLast House, are in the future, making them invisible from the present.\n \nValeria's tower, off the Atrium of Time, is also invisible from the present, suggesting its upper\nlevels exist in the future. About 60 years in Severian's future, if I am correct. Valeria lives in \nthe lower levels of her tower, thus in the past, hence her antique appearance.\n \nTo understand the Path of Air I think we not only have to connect it to the Last House but to other\nCommonwealth structures, specifically Ultan's library and Rudesind's art gallery. Both are said to \nextend from the Citadel all the way to House Absolute. A while back someone suggested that these \nstructures truly physically extend for 100 miles or whatever in underground tunnels. I find it more\nplausible that Father Inire-built portals are involved.\n \nI think bogus suppositions of sleigh rides, etc. are meant to lead us to wonder how khaibits are able\nto travel back and forth between House Absolute and House Azure in Nessus. Inire-portals would fit the\nbill nicely and it makes sense that the Autarch would have access to them.\n \nI am suggesting that there is a similar portal which connects House Absolute to the top of Valeria's \ntower. It is called the Path of Air because one end is underground but the other is, well, in the air\nproviding a breeze. Hence it is a loggia or breezeway as Jeff has suggested. (a loggia is provided breeze\nfrom the side rather than its terminus but, hey, no theory is perfect).\n \nI find this the best explanation for why Severian sees an unchanged face from his youth appear 60 years\nin the future. It allows for a reason for why she seems to be under arrest and being taken back to the past.\nWhatever crime Catherine committed it was surely in the past from the Path of Air scene.\n \nSince the woman on the Path of Air has dark hair and a pale gown I connect her to the woman in the grave at \nthe beginning of the story. If that is right and Dave Tallman is right she was brought back in time to give \nbirth to Severian and then died 20 years later.\n \nI'm not sure. Nor am I sure which of these various dark haired women is the orginal (Contessa?) Catherine and\nwhich is a khaibit. I tend to think the woman on the Path of Air was not pregnant with Severian (and Severa)\nbut had already given birth and was trying to escape her deferred execution by escaping to the future.\n \nI'm not sure how the monials fit in, but if her manner of execution was Allowin's necklace I must guess her\ncrime was infidelity, mirroring the strangulation sentence for that other dark haired, oval faced, failed \nPelerine, Cyriaca.\n \nThe connection of this Catherine personage to Valeria's time travelling tower might be Valeria herself. I think\nValeria remains a possible candidate as Severian's missing twin sister. The wife of Roman emperor valentinianus \nwas named Valeria Severa. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6BE1D1.1060000@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-18T13:36:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (18-08-2010 12:58):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think Valeria remains a possible candidate as Severian's missing twin\nsister. The wife of Roman emperor valentinianus was named Valeria\nSevera." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This I think is worth exploring.\n\n- When Severian goes to Yesod, Valeria remains in his place for decades. Why \nwould this be tolerated? We're told of no similar thing in the history of \nthe Autarchy.\n\n- What's Severian's attraction to Valeria? He met her when both were \nreasonably young. Then years pass and suddenly upon becoming Autarch he \nrealises he must go get her. Why?\n\n- I don't know what to make of the names. The -ian in Severian's name was \nsometimes used in Rome to indicate adoption. Otoh Valeria would simply be \nthe name of a woman born to perhaps the most noble family in roman history, \nwhile at the same time one that generally stood for the rights of lower \nstrata of society. So, the names seem to fit, but do they tell us anything new?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6C1CF2.5030902@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-18T17:48:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/18/2010 6:58 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Light and gravity are common and cheaper than dirt on Urth, while time\ntravel requires a huge undertaking." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ah, now I understand your reluctance to invoke time travel. That kind is a huge undertaking.\nBut how much effort did Severian spend to travel to the future to see Ragnarok? A flight or two\nof stairs. He actually WAS in the future, not just observing it, since the upper levels of the\nLast House, are in the future, making them invisible from the present." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This sort of transcendental architecture may be more suitable for \nresearch and monitoring than meddling with causality, especially \nregarding Master Ash's fade from existence and the subsequent detachment \nof the lower stories from the altered timeline. The Corridors of Time \nlikewise seem unsuitable on their own, as Severian never changes history \ndespite randomly blundering into new eras repeatedly, he only ever \nconfirms what was already suspected. It seems to be the Hierogrammates \nand the sea-beasts that have the superhuman perception of time required \nto judge which changes can be made and how best to make them, and to \ndirect their minions accordingly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Valeria's tower, off the Atrium of Time, is also invisible from the present, suggesting its upper\nlevels exist in the future. About 60 years in Severian's future, if I am correct. Valeria lives in\nthe lower levels of her tower, thus in the past, hence her antique appearance.\n\nTo understand the Path of Air I think we not only have to connect it to the Last House but to other\nCommonwealth structures, specifically Ultan's library and Rudesind's art gallery. Both are said to\nextend from the Citadel all the way to House Absolute. A while back someone suggested that these\nstructures truly physically extend for 100 miles or whatever in underground tunnels. I find it more\nplausible that Father Inire-built portals are involved." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm in agreement on the existence of physical corridors that bridge time \nand space like the Corridors of Time, but I see no evidence that \nValeria's tower itself is a time-bender. Since it's immediately adjacent \nto the Atrium of Time and the tunnels passing the dial-filled rooms, you \nget the same effect if the tower is entirely in the past, or if the \ntunnels curve through space so that the tower seems to be in one place \nrather than another.\n\nIt's also the sort of thing you'd find on a certain university campus, \nbut that's a theory for another time." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-18T18:14:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "<4C6C1CF2.5030902@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- This sort of transcendental architecture may be more suitable for \nresearch and monitoring than meddling with causality. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nCould be. Still we see someone ostensibly from Severian's past there in his distant\nfuture." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm in agreement on the existence of physical corridors that bridge time \nand space like the Corridors of Time, but I see no evidence that \nValeria's tower itself is a time-bender." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhy is it called the Atrium of Time then? There is no time travel there in the Atrium." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "you get the same effect if the tower is entirely in the past, or if the \ntunnels curve through space so that the tower seems to be in one place \nrather than another." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI suppose. But if that were true then Valeria's tower is like nothing else on Urth. \nBy noticing the similarity of Valeria's tower to the Last House, with its invisible \ntop in the future, we at least have some basis of comparison for guesswork. And, as\npreviously mentioned, it gives a reason for the name Path of Air. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4c088fa80e7f24c14235985348edfa46.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-18T21:22:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- This sort of transcendental architecture may be more\nsuitable for\nresearch and monitoring than meddling with causality." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Could be. Still we see someone ostensibly from Severian's past there in\nhis distant\nfuture." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Where? You mean Master Ash is really from the past instead of the ice-age\nfuture?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'm in agreement on the existence of physical corridors that bridge time\nand space like the Corridors of Time, but I see no evidence that\nValeria's tower itself is a time-bender." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why is it called the Atrium of Time then? There is no time travel there in\nthe Atrium." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An atrium is an enclosed or partially enclosed area adjacent to some\nlarger structure or feature, usually open to the sky though glassed-over\nand skylit atria are popular these last few centuries. Thus, the Atrium of\nTime can be this secluded area adjacent to the Corridors of Time,\nassociated with their function but not part of it, accessible through time\nbut outside of it. Mantis speculates that it and the dial-filled rooms\nnearby might be part of some abandoned time patrol headquarters." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "you get the same effect if the tower is entirely in the past, or if the\ntunnels curve through space so that the tower seems to be in one place\nrather than another." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I suppose. But if that were true then Valeria's tower is like nothing else\non Urth." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Her tower can be just like all the other towers, only the place it is\nresting is unusual. There are other towers shown on the map not in\nevidence, and towers visible that are not on the map. The time tunnels\nallow her tower to be both." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By noticing the similarity of Valeria's tower to the Last House, with its\ninvisible\ntop in the future, we at least have some basis of comparison for\nguesswork. And, as\npreviously mentioned, it gives a reason for the name Path of Air." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's \"speculating on\", not \"noticing.\" The Last House has to have its\nupper stories in the future of its lower stories, because the ice\naccumulates over the ages. If time travel had a strictly vertical,\nup-to-the-future-down-to-the-past character, the Green Man would seen\nclimbing the Stairs of Time, or the Chutes and Ladders of Time, and\nTzadkerbell would flutter alongside the Cataract or the Geyser Madrigot." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6C7392.3080909@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-18T23:58:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "<4C6BE1D1.1060000@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some obvious answers present themselves:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nLee Berman wrote (18-08-2010 12:58):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think Valeria remains a possible candidate as Severian's missing twin\nsister. The wife of Roman emperor valentinianus was named Valeria\nSevera." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This I think is worth exploring.\n\n- When Severian goes to Yesod, Valeria remains in his place for \ndecades. Why would this be tolerated? We're told of no similar thing \nin the history of the Autarchy. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "---Because it's not important." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- What's Severian's attraction to Valeria? He met her when both were \nreasonably young. Then years pass and suddenly upon becoming Autarch \nhe realises he must go get her. Why?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "---Because he could." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "- I don't know what to make of the names. The -ian in Severian's name \nwas sometimes used in Rome to indicate adoption. Otoh Valeria would \nsimply be the name of a woman born to perhaps the most noble family in \nroman history, while at the same time one that generally stood for the \nrights of lower strata of society. So, the names seem to fit, but do \nthey tell us anything new?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-19T01:17:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "<4C6C7392.3080909@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This kind of answers is precisely why people lose interest in following the\nlist." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 19 August 2010 00:58, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSome obvious answers present themselves:\n\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (18-08-2010 12:58):\n\n I think Valeria remains a possible candidate as Severian's missing twin\nsister. The wife of Roman emperor valentinianus was named Valeria\nSevera." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This I think is worth exploring.\n\n- When Severian goes to Yesod, Valeria remains in his place for decades.\nWhy would this be tolerated? We're told of no similar thing in the history\nof the Autarchy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---Because it's not important." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- What's Severian's attraction to Valeria? He met her when both were\nreasonably young. Then years pass and suddenly upon becoming Autarch he\nrealises he must go get her. Why?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "---Because he could." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "- I don't know what to make of the names. The -ian in Severian's name was\nsometimes used in Rome to indicate adoption. Otoh Valeria would simply be\nthe name of a woman born to perhaps the most noble family in roman history,\nwhile at the same time one that generally stood for the rights of lower\nstrata of society. So, the names seem to fit, but do they tell us anything\nnew?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6C8F24.1090909@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-19T01:55:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is a discussion list. If you are unable to provide better answers \nthan the \"obvious\" ones, why do you complain about them?\n\nPerhaps it's actually the endless bickering that is a problem for some. \nI don't know. I'm not going to address it further." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nThis kind of answers is precisely why people lose interest in \nfollowing the list.\n\nOn 19 August 2010 00:58, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n Some obvious answers present themselves:\n\n\n Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\n Lee Berman wrote (18-08-2010 12:58):\n\n I think Valeria remains a possible candidate as Severian's\n missing twin\n sister. The wife of Roman emperor valentinianus was named\n Valeria\n Severa.\n\n\n This I think is worth exploring.\n\n - When Severian goes to Yesod, Valeria remains in his place\n for decades. Why would this be tolerated? We're told of no\n similar thing in the history of the Autarchy.\n\n ---Because it's not important.\n\n\n - What's Severian's attraction to Valeria? He met her when\n both were reasonably young. Then years pass and suddenly upon\n becoming Autarch he realises he must go get her. Why?\n\n ---Because he could.\n\n\n - I don't know what to make of the names. The -ian in\n Severian's name was sometimes used in Rome to indicate\n adoption. Otoh Valeria would simply be the name of a woman\n born to perhaps the most noble family in roman history, while\n at the same time one that generally stood for the rights of\n lower strata of society. So, the names seem to fit, but do\n they tell us anything new?\n\n _______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-19T03:09:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "<4C6C8F24.1090909@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 19 August 2010 02:55, David Stockhoff wrote:\nThis is a discussion list. If you are unable to provide better answers than\nthe \"obvious\" ones," }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "*You* are the one who could only provide those 'answers'. Which are only\n'obvious' because they don't answer anything.\nI'm more interested in asking questions. If you have no answer for them, no\none's going to think the worse of you, so no need to write non-answers. I\nwasn't even talking to you specifically (even if I were you'd be under no\nobligation to answer, of course)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "why do you complain about them?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because they answer nothing, since they are not answers but merely flippant\n\"because it is so\" remarks, and hence worthless and out of place in a\n*discussion*?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps it's actually the endless bickering that is a problem for some. I\ndon't know. I'm not going to address it further." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You'd have done a much better job if you hadn't written those two replies.\nWhat did they gain anyone?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This kind of answers is precisely why people lose interest in following\nthe list.\n\nOn 19 August 2010 00:58, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n Some obvious answers present themselves:\n\n\n Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\n Lee Berman wrote (18-08-2010 12:58):\n\n I think Valeria remains a possible candidate as Severian's\n missing twin\n sister. The wife of Roman emperor valentinianus was named\n Valeria\n Severa.\n\n\n This I think is worth exploring.\n\n - When Severian goes to Yesod, Valeria remains in his place\n for decades. Why would this be tolerated? We're told of no\n similar thing in the history of the Autarchy.\n\n ---Because it's not important.\n\n\n - What's Severian's attraction to Valeria? He met her when\n both were reasonably young. Then years pass and suddenly upon\n becoming Autarch he realises he must go get her. Why?\n\n ---Because he could.\n\n\n - I don't know what to make of the names. The -ian in\n Severian's name was sometimes used in Rome to indicate\n adoption. Otoh Valeria would simply be the name of a woman\n born to perhaps the most noble family in roman history, while\n at the same time one that generally stood for the rights of\n lower strata of society. So, the names seem to fit, but do\n they tell us anything new?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-19T03:17:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's an irony here, and I'm feeding it, but replies like the one you gave below, Ant?nio, while I agree with them, are just as easily accomplished by replying to dstockhoff at verizon.net instead of urth at lists.urth.net.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 18, 2010, at 9:17 PM, Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nThis kind of answers is precisely why people lose interest in following the list.\n\nOn 19 August 2010 00:58, David Stockhoff wrote:\nSome obvious answers present themselves:\n\n\nAnt?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nLee Berman wrote (18-08-2010 12:58):\n\nI think Valeria remains a possible candidate as Severian's missing twin\nsister. The wife of Roman emperor valentinianus was named Valeria\nSevera.\n\nThis I think is worth exploring.\n\n- When Severian goes to Yesod, Valeria remains in his place for decades. Why would this be tolerated? We're told of no similar thing in the history of the Autarchy. \n---Because it's not important.\n\n\n- What's Severian's attraction to Valeria? He met her when both were reasonably young. Then years pass and suddenly upon becoming Autarch he realises he must go get her. Why?\n---Because he could.\n\n- I don't know what to make of the names. The -ian in Severian's name was sometimes used in Rome to indicate adoption. Otoh Valeria would simply be the name of a woman born to perhaps the most noble family in roman history, while at the same time one that generally stood for the rights of lower strata of society. So, the names seem to fit, but do they tell us anything new?\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-19T03:54:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio P. Marques- What's Severian's attraction to Valeria? He met her when\nboth were reasonably young." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The wife of Roman emperor Valentinianus was named\nValeria Severa." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This I think is worth exploring" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThey are still about the same age when they married I think. I am not interested\nin parsing out exact timelines but I think those who do estimate Severian's journey \nfrom graveyard to Autarchy lasted somewhat under two years. Or was it somewhat over...\nI forget.\n \nSeverian doesn't mention Valeria much, if at all, after their first meeting, for \nthree books. Then, in Citadel of the Autarch he brings her up rather unexpectedly \nin the first pages, describing her dark, curling hair and dark eyes and milk and \npomegranate skin. \"really more beautiful than anyone I've ever seen since--more \nlovely even than Jolenta\". Later he describes Valeria's face as one that \"tears at \nhis heart\". So there is that.\n \nAnother face that Severian finds \"tears at his heart\" is the woman on the Path of Air.\nShe resembles the Holy Katharine maid who many think is Severian's mother. Make of that\nwhat you will.\n \nFurther exploration of the Roman empress angle might be to check out Valeria's speaking\nLatin phrases to Severian. She may not be the best linguist but she translates \"dei\"\nto mean \"New Sun\". Severian has to be a bit pleased with that on more than one level.\n \n \n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-19T04:03:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has this question been asked...\n\nIf Wolfe never intended to write UotNS, did he intend for his reader to deduce that Severian would go on to marry Valeria? If so, what \"tells\" were there that might lead one to believe that she, above all the other women from this story, would be the one?\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Aug 18, 2010, at 11:54 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nAntonio P. Marques- What's Severian's attraction to Valeria? He met her when\nboth were reasonably young." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The wife of Roman emperor Valentinianus was named\nValeria Severa." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This I think is worth exploring" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "They are still about the same age when they married I think. I am not interested\nin parsing out exact timelines but I think those who do estimate Severian's journey \nfrom graveyard to Autarchy lasted somewhat under two years. Or was it somewhat over...\nI forget.\n\nSeverian doesn't mention Valeria much, if at all, after their first meeting, for \nthree books. Then, in Citadel of the Autarch he brings her up rather unexpectedly \nin the first pages, describing her dark, curling hair and dark eyes and milk and \npomegranate skin. \"really more beautiful than anyone I've ever seen since--more \nlovely even than Jolenta\". Later he describes Valeria's face as one that \"tears at \nhis heart\". So there is that.\n\nAnother face that Severian finds \"tears at his heart\" is the woman on the Path of Air.\nShe resembles the Holy Katharine maid who many think is Severian's mother. Make of that\nwhat you will.\n\nFurther exploration of the Roman empress angle might be to check out Valeria's speaking\nLatin phrases to Severian. She may not be the best linguist but she translates \"dei\"\nto mean \"New Sun\". Severian has to be a bit pleased with that on more than one level.\n\n\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t \n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-19T23:39:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 19 August 2010 04:54, Lee Berman wrote:\nSeverian doesn't mention Valeria much, if at all, after their first\nmeeting, for\nthree books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And he doesn't care to mention how he got back to Matachin, though he did\nsay to Valeria he didn't want to go down to the tunnels again. Let alone how\nhe could find his way out of them - even his memory can't be much help when\nthere's no light. Also, while talking to Master Ash he remembers Valeria\nbecause the maze he had to go through *before* finding her. Could mean\nnothing, of course.\n\nThen, in Citadel of the Autarch he brings her up rather unexpectedly" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "in the first pages, describing her dark, curling hair and dark eyes and\nmilk and\npomegranate skin. \"really more beautiful than anyone I've ever seen\nsince--more\nlovely even than Jolenta\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In 'a different way'... later on, Jolenta 'is the most beautiful'. But\nValeria is 'lovely'. Mmmm." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Later he describes Valeria's face as one that \"tears at\nhis heart\". So there is that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yea, she looks like his mother, and Holy Katharine is the following chapter\nto the Atrium of Time.\n\nFurther exploration of the Roman empress angle might be to check out" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Valeria's speaking\nLatin phrases to Severian. She may not be the best linguist but she\ntranslates \"dei\"\nto mean \"New Sun\". Severian has to be a bit pleased with that on more than\none level." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The weird part is that I almost get the idea that she knows how her story\nwill end. All the particulars seem to echo one another.\n\nHer family was to have left Urth with the Autarch of their time - how come?\nShe's all the sisters and all the sons. And they now wait because there is\nnothing left but to wait. And both the first and the last time Severian\nmeets her, he has to go through tunnels. And after she's killed, he thinks\nshe's alive somewhere. Could there be alternate Valerias just as there are\nSeverians?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-20T00:03:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 19 August 2010 04:54, Lee Berman wrote:\nFurther exploration of the Roman empress angle might be to check out\nValeria's speaking\nLatin phrases to Severian. She may not be the best linguist but she\ntranslates \"dei\"\nto mean \"New Sun\". Severian has to be a bit pleased with that on more than\none level." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lux dei vitae viam monstrat\n The beam of the New Sun lights the way of life\n The light of God points forth the path for life\n\nFelicibus brevis, miseris hora longa\n Men wait long for happiness\n Time runs slowly for the unfortunate ones, fast for the fortunate ones\nor Time runs slowly for those who are sad, fast for those who are happy\n\nAspice ut aspiciar\n N/A\n See, in order for me to be seen\n\n\nI don't think anyone knows much about Valeria Severa. But Wolfe may have\nliked the name. Which came first, his name or hers? For all we know, Valeria\nmay be his mother and Catherine his sister. Has anyone worked out the\nsignificance of the name Severian, besides the bishop?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6DC7CA.1040607@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-20T00:09:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antonio\n\nAs I said quite clearly, those were the \"obvious\" answers. Not the \n\"only\" answers. Generally, in these matters, the interesting answers \nmust contend with and overcome the obvious ones, or else join with them, \nor else go away. Therefore, the obvious answers must be known.\n\nIf you find the obvious answers to be uninteresting, but you can't come \nup with more interesting ones (you still haven't), then this suggests \nthat the questions themselves aren't that interesting. That is, they \ndon't lead anywhere. You need better questions.\n\nWhether you want to hear that or not is a different matter." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Marques wrote:\nOn 19 August 2010 02:55, David Stockhoff > wrote:\n\n This is a discussion list. If you are unable to provide better\n answers than the \"obvious\" ones,\n\n\n*You* are the one who could only provide those 'answers'. Which are \nonly 'obvious' because they don't answer anything.\nI'm more interested in asking questions. If you have no answer for \nthem, no one's going to think the worse of you, so no need to write \nnon-answers. I wasn't even talking to you specifically (even if I were \nyou'd be under no obligation to answer, of course).\n \n\n why do you complain about them?\n\n\nBecause they answer nothing, since they are not answers but merely \nflippant \"because it is so\" remarks, and hence worthless and out of \nplace in a *discussion*?\n \n\n Perhaps it's actually the endless bickering that is a problem for\n some. I don't know. I'm not going to address it further.\n\n\nYou'd have done a much better job if you hadn't written those two \nreplies. What did they gain anyone?\n\n Ant?nio Marques wrote:\n\n This kind of answers is precisely why people lose interest in\n following the list.\n\n On 19 August 2010 00:58, David Stockhoff\n \n >> wrote:\n\n Some obvious answers present themselves:\n\n\n Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n\n Lee Berman wrote (18-08-2010 12:58):\n\n I think Valeria remains a possible candidate as\n Severian's\n missing twin\n sister. The wife of Roman emperor valentinianus was\n named\n Valeria\n Severa.\n\n\n This I think is worth exploring.\n\n - When Severian goes to Yesod, Valeria remains in his place\n for decades. Why would this be tolerated? We're told of no\n similar thing in the history of the Autarchy.\n\n ---Because it's not important.\n\n\n - What's Severian's attraction to Valeria? He met her when\n both were reasonably young. Then years pass and\n suddenly upon\n becoming Autarch he realises he must go get her. Why?\n\n ---Because he could.\n\n\n - I don't know what to make of the names. The -ian in\n Severian's name was sometimes used in Rome to indicate\n adoption. Otoh Valeria would simply be the name of a woman\n born to perhaps the most noble family in roman history,\n while\n at the same time one that generally stood for the rights of\n lower strata of society. So, the names seem to fit, but do\n they tell us anything new?\n\n \n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "David Duffy", "address": "davidd at qimr.edu.au" }, "date": "2010-08-20T00:25:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 19 August 2010 04:54, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nSeverian doesn't mention Valeria much, if at all, after their first\nmeeting, for three books." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have previously mentioned that I think part of the origins of BotNS are \nas a dialogue with _Dune_ and _Empire Star_, both of which share many of \nthe same plot elements. Then, Valeria is Irulan, a political marriage \nbut not his true love, his grandmother ;)\n\nJust another 2c, David Duffy." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6DFAC6.9060509@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-20T03:47:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian and Valeria sitting in a tree", "in_reply_to": "<4C6BE1D1.1060000@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/18/2010 8:36 AM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n- What's Severian's attraction to Valeria? He met her when both were\nreasonably young. Then years pass and suddenly upon becoming Autarch he\nrealises he must go get her. Why?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are several reasons: he still feels a fondness for her, having met \nher under unusual circumstances on his final juvenile adventure. She is \na connection to a simpler time, his last hurrah without adult \nresponsibility.\n\nThey met as near-peers, both obscure servants of the Autarchy. Valeria's \ntechnically an armigette of a landed family while Severian has no \npedigree at all, but his guild still actively serves while her outfit \nhasn't been called upon in generations. They are apparently peers in age \nas well.\n\nSeverian met and knew her before his infamy and ascenscion, so he knows \nshe did not seek to spend time with him for those reasons. This is an \nimportant advantage she has in that it rules out her being a golddigger \nor a plotter, or otherwise seeking to exploit their relationship, at \nleast initially. (Alas, Claudius and Messalina...)\n\nSeverian remarks on how he never desires a woman more than when he \ncannot have her - their considerable separation counts here. Then there \nhis reflection that love and lust are intertwined, since men love women \nfor giving themselves to them, even if it is only in their minds; so \nafter months or years of unconsumated separation and months of \nfantasizing on his un-conjugal travels, his crush on his original \nadolescent sweetheart might be very strong indeed.\n\nAnd there is her dark hair and light skin that Severian overtly finds \nattractive, and if the metal trim on her dress is zippers up the sides, \nthat doesn't hurt either." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-08-20T14:28:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian and Valeria sitting in a tree", "in_reply_to": "<4C6DFAC6.9060509@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nAnd there is her dark hair and light skin that Severian overtly finds\n\nattractive, and if the metal trim on her dress is zippers up the sides,\n\nthat doesn't hurt either.\n\n\nThis is a world where copper and iron are mentioned in the same breath\nas silver and gold. Metals are rare and precious. Metal trimming on\nthe dress makes Sev think it has an \"antique quality.\" Since Valeria's\nfamily has come down in the world it's unlikely they could afford to\nbuy such things. It has either been passed down to her or she herself\nis from an earlier time." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6EB568.2010600@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-20T17:03:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Severian and Valeria sitting in a tree", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/20/2010 9:28 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:\n\n And there is her dark hair and light skin that Severian overtly finds\n\n attractive, and if the metal trim on her dress is zippers up the sides,\n\n that doesn't hurt either.\n\n\nThis is a world where copper and iron are mentioned in the same breath\nas silver and gold. Metals are rare and precious. Metal trimming on the\ndress makes Sev think it has an \"antique quality.\" Since Valeria's\nfamily has come down in the world it's unlikely they could afford to buy\nsuch things. It has either been passed down to her or she herself is\nfrom an earlier time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've thought about that some more. Valeria's family doesn't seem to be \nof especially poor means as they have servants and at least three towers \nto themselves, despite having dwindled to a single member in Valeria's \ngeneration.\n\nAs for the commonality of metals, there are any number of iron fixtures \nand other objects left to rust instead of being kept painted or oiled, \nand gold chrisos are not particularly rare in Severian's travels (unless \nI'm mistaken and chrisos aren't gold). No one's looted the funeral \nbrasses from Severian's crypt. So supplying a dress with zippers to the \nonly marriageable girl in even a poor but landed noble family isn't a \nbig deal, though the zippers may have been salvaged from earlier \ngarments, and it would make sense for them to be exposed as an \nostentatious display. The same goes for any other metal trimmings, of \ncourse." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nIEEE Student Chapter Blog at\n< http://ieeetamut.org >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6EDBC8.9050807@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-20T19:47:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "<4C6DC7CA.1040607@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My apologies to the list for the following.\n\nTo Antonio, who promised to block any response to an email discussion \nwith me that he himself initiated:\n\nThough you are a very confused and childish person, you haven't hurt \nme---you have simply wasted my time and worn out my patience, because I \nwas tolerant of your petty foolishness. Please learn adult behavior \nbefore you pester me again.\n\nDavid" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6F1E82.8070401@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-21T00:32:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "<4C6EDBC8.9050807@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi all,\n\nI've told David I wouldn't read any more personal e-mails from him for the \ntime being, as they were devoid of content (and actually abusive, though my \nissue is chiefly with the pointlessness of it), but of course I'd keep on \nreading his contributions to the list if he had something to say there. I \ndidn't for a moment think he was so much in need of (my?) attention that \nhe'd try to carry on our non-conversation here. So, if it is my fault that a \nmatter I took off-list returned to it due to my not wishing to discuss it \nany more, I apologise. To avoid further unpleasantness, I won't be reading \nDavid again for a while either on- or off-list, so 1: if David wishes to \nkeep talking, by all means do, but I have nothing to do with that, and 2: if \nDavid should regain his temper and wish this silliness to end, then say so \nvia some 3rd party. Sorry (honestly, not rhetorically) for wasting the \nsubscribers's time.\n\nAnd to David, my apologies for my part in the issue." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C6F2565.4020206@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-21T01:01:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air OFF-TOPIC", "in_reply_to": "<4C6F1E82.8070401@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Antonio\n\nIt is all too clear who is crying for attention. You are making public \naccusations that have no merit regarding a matter that you insist is \nprivate. You therefore leave me no choice but to respond here.\n\nAnd my response is to ask you to cut the passive-aggressive psychodrama \nNOW. It is pathetic and shows your complete disrespect for members of \nthis list.\n\nThis is the LAST you will hear from me.\n\nDavid" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nHi all,\n\nI've told David I wouldn't read any more personal e-mails from him for \nthe time being, as they were devoid of content (and actually abusive, \nthough my issue is chiefly with the pointlessness of it), but of \ncourse I'd keep on reading his contributions to the list if he had \nsomething to say there. I didn't for a moment think he was so much in \nneed of (my?) attention that he'd try to carry on our non-conversation \nhere. So, if it is my fault that a matter I took off-list returned to \nit due to my not wishing to discuss it any more, I apologise. To avoid \nfurther unpleasantness, I won't be reading David again for a while \neither on- or off-list, so 1: if David wishes to keep talking, by all \nmeans do, but I have nothing to do with that, and 2: if David should \nregain his temper and wish this silliness to end, then say so via some \n3rd party. Sorry (honestly, not rhetorically) for wasting the \nsubscribers's time.\n\nAnd to David, my apologies for my part in the issue.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-21T15:22:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air OFF-TOPIC", "in_reply_to": "<4C6F2565.4020206@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 10:31 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nAntonio\n\n" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I doubt that anybody is very interested in any of this." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-22T08:24:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air OFF-TOPIC", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I doubt that anybody is very interested in any of this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNobody is very interested in anything, anymore. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<3BD13E96-F378-41F9-81B7-7E614D4F3255@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-22T12:27:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air OFF-TOPIC", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Aug 22, 2010, at 4:24 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI doubt that anybody is very interested in any of this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nobody is very interested in anything, anymore. \t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm still interested in Gene Wolfe.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-23T06:59:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Path of Air", "in_reply_to": "<3BD13E96-F378-41F9-81B7-7E614D4F3255@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2010/08/22, ?s 13:27, Ryan Dunn \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 22, 2010, at 4:24 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nobody is very interested in anything, anymore." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm still interested in Gene Wolfe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's August and some of us do observe the weekend sometimes :)\n\nI hope to comment on both your and Lee's latest contributions during \nthe week. " } ] } ] }