{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5726", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5726, "subject": "GUTs and so on", "messages": 11, "voices": 9, "first": "2010-08-24T20:34:48+00:00", "last": "2010-09-04T19:22:59+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-24T20:34:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GUTs and so on", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sometimes ... and I want to be clear that I'm not singling anyone out\nhere ... nor is this a recent but rather a recurring thing ... I get\nthe feeling that there's a competition going on, whose rules I am\nunaware of, but the objective of which seems to be the erection and\nsuccessful support of the most baroque and prima facie implausible\ntheory concerning some Lupine matter; the prize being simply the gasps\nand awed admiration of our fellow Wolfeans, and that this competition\nis rather like a circus act, in that the value is not in the thing\ndone but in its difficulty." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<451888.50799.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Craig Brewer", "address": "cnbrewer at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-08-24T21:02:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GUTs and so on", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think (almost) all of us have been guilty of that at some point, myself \nincluded. (I know I've got some weird ideas about TWK and Sorcerer's House.)\n\nBut one thing that I always want to know is how the details or the baroque \ntheories do more than point out some hidden plot point. As much as I disagree \nwith MOST of Borski's stuff, say, one thing I appreciate about him is that he \nwill occasionally take a step back and reflect on why his theories matter and \nhow they might change our general understanding and even thematic \ninterpretations. One thing I like about Wolfe is that the puzzles that I'm \npretty sure are there and are there to be solved are usually there for a pretty \ninteresting reason, rather than just being puzzles to be solved. That Severian \nmay have died and come back (either resurrected or as an eidolon) multiple times \nin BotNS, say, has all kinds of philosophical and theological ramifications for \nthe story. Guessing that some minor character may be his second cousin once \nremoved by hidden marriage on his step mother's side, however...not so much.\n\nIn the most recent case, I'd want to know not just IF Fava is Hy, but I'd also \nwant to know how that changes what we're supposed to think about Silk/Silkhorn \nin terms of his prophet-status, etc.\n\n\n\n----- Original Message ----\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nTo: The Urth Mailing List \nSent: Tue, August 24, 2010 3:34:48 PM\nSubject: (urth) GUTs and so on\n\nSometimes ... and I want to be clear that I'm not singling anyone out\nhere ... nor is this a recent but rather a recurring thing ... I get\nthe feeling that there's a competition going on, whose rules I am\nunaware of, but the objective of which seems to be the erection and\nsuccessful support of the most baroque and prima facie implausible\ntheory concerning some Lupine matter; the prize being simply the gasps\nand awed admiration of our fellow Wolfeans, and that this competition\nis rather like a circus act, in that the value is not in the thing\ndone but in its difficulty." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-24T21:06:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GUTs and so on", "in_reply_to": "<451888.50799.qm@web37602.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 24, 2010, at 5:02 PM, Craig Brewer wrote:\nThat Severian \nmay have died and come back (either resurrected or as an eidolon) multiple times \nin BotNS, say, has all kinds of philosophical and theological ramifications for \nthe story. Guessing that some minor character may be his second cousin once \nremoved by hidden marriage on his step mother's side, however...not so much." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then how do we justify the fact that Wolfe spends more than a couple pages explaining in clues how Dorcas is Severian's grandmother. What bigger ramifications does this have to the story? Family tree encounters from another time and place, mayhap?\n\nDan'l, I think there's credence to what you say. I personally like to throw an idea that I cannot decipher out to a group of intelligent people who happen to read the same author from time to time. Where the hell else can I do THAT?\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C743846.8050903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-24T21:23:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GUTs and so on", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 8/24/2010 3:34 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nSometimes ... and I want to be clear that I'm not singling anyone out\nhere ... nor is this a recent but rather a recurring thing ... I get\nthe feeling that there's a competition going on, whose rules I am\nunaware of, but the objective of which seems to be the erection and\nsuccessful support of the most baroque and prima facie implausible\ntheory concerning some Lupine matter; the prize being simply the gasps\nand awed admiration of our fellow Wolfeans, and that this competition\nis rather like a circus act, in that the value is not in the thing\ndone but in its difficulty." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am feeling a little singled out.\n\nLook, it's not really a baroque or complicated explanation. It's not \nintuitive, but it's founded on one pretty well-known event in text. And \nlots of little clues that many people have agreed were clues without an \nanswer to unify them into anything. It doesn't require supposing vast \nhistories that are undescribed or unalluded to. I'm surprised large \nparts of it was even a big mystery to anyone who has read to In Green's \nJungles, even though it was a couple years after I first read \"Short \nSun\" that the the bit about Hy occurred to me. But I can be a little slow.\n\nThe reason I'm not just laying it out on the fly is that I do know in \nadvance that some people will _hate_ it -- on purely philosophical \ngrounds, regardless of what the text says. And I want to make it clear \nthat I'm not singling anyone out here. ;-)\n\n So, I am at least going to get the textual references down before \npresent it as a whole--although I mentioned parts before. Dave Tallman \nasked me to explain it and that's why I'm explaining it. If I'm \nperforming a circus act, I'm performing on request. Wait. Then throw eggs.\n\nJ" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-24T21:30:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GUTs and so on", "in_reply_to": "<4C743846.8050903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 24, 2010 at 2:23 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI am feeling a little singled out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Honest, you shouldn't. That post has been gradually brewing ever since\n\"the Neighbors are the Trees.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C743ABD.4020605@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-08-24T21:33:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GUTs and so on", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 24/08/10 21:34, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nSometimes ... and I want to be clear that I'm not singling anyone out\nhere ... nor is this a recent but rather a recurring thing ... I get\nthe feeling that there's a competition going on, whose rules I am\nunaware of, but the objective of which seems to be the erection and\nsuccessful support of the most baroque and prima facie implausible\ntheory concerning some Lupine matter; the prize being simply the gasps\nand awed admiration of our fellow Wolfeans, and that this competition\nis rather like a circus act, in that the value is not in the thing\ndone but in its difficulty.\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "+1" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C7442E1.1020506@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-24T22:08:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GUTs and so on", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn -\nI am feeling a little singled out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l- Honest, you shouldn't. That post has been gradually brewing ever since\n\"the Neighbors are the Trees.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LOL\nWell, *I* think the Neighbors *are* at least some of the trees, so there \nya are. And the Rajan did refer to the trees as \"sleepy\" which is what \nyou'd expect from dream-travelers. IIRC someone claimed the Rajan's \nstaff made from a vine was an inhumi and that the Rajan talked to it. \nSo it gets worse. It's easy for me to imagine how the Neighbors could be \ntrees. It's impossible for me to see how the inhumi could be vines. But \nthe second is more plainly stated than the first. I don't really \nunderstand how all that fits together.\n\nI don't think a tree ate Horn. I have my own despicable explanation for \nwhat happened in the pit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer -- [snip]As much as I disagree\nwith MOST of Borski's stuff, say, one thing I appreciate about him is that he\nwill occasionally take a step back and reflect on why his theories matter and\nhow they might change our general understanding and even thematic\ninterpretations. [snip]In the most recent case, I'd want to know not just IF Fava is Hy, but I'd also want to know how that changes what we're supposed to think about Silk/Silkhorn in terms of his prophet-status, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there's this metaphor that I noted in \"The Book of the Long Sun\" \nthat befuddled me for a long time. And Hy as Fava resolved that riddle. \nSo maybe you'll like this. I'm not sure Hy being Fava reveals *in \nitself* anything thematically about Silk or the Rajan. But isn't Hy an \nimportant enough character to warrant her own thematic vehicles? \nAlthough it does fit nicely with the little play of Silk and Hyacinth as \nSimon Magus and Helena, it is hardly necessary to it.\n\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<314442.56127.qm@web81406.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Stuart Hamm", "address": "hammstu at sbcglobal.net" }, "date": "2010-08-24T22:13:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GUTs and so on", "in_reply_to": "<4C7442E1.1020506@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think a tree ate Horn. I have my own despicable explanation for what happened in the pit.\n\no, please feel free to reply offline to me on this one, or point me o the link..!!\nI think Silk/Horn became the \"3rd quill in the pencase\"\n???????? ? ? \n?Mobile — (415) 786-3624\nSTUHAMM.COM\nFACEBOOK/STUARTHAMM\nmyspace.com/stuhamm\nSkype? stuart.hamm\n? ?? \n\n\n--- On Tue, 8/24/10, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) GUTs and so on\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, August 24, 2010, 3:08 PM\nJames Wynn -\nI am feeling a little singled out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l- Honest, you shouldn't. That post has been gradually brewing ever since\n\"the Neighbors are the Trees.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "LOL\nWell, *I* think the Neighbors *are* at least some of the trees, so there ya are. And the Rajan did refer to the trees as \"sleepy\" which is what you'd expect from dream-travelers. IIRC someone claimed the Rajan's staff made from a vine? was an inhumi and that the Rajan talked to it. So it gets worse. It's easy for me to imagine how the Neighbors could be trees. It's impossible for me to see how the inhumi could be vines. But the second is more plainly stated than the first. I don't really understand how all that fits together.\n\nI don't think a tree ate Horn. I have my own despicable explanation for what happened in the pit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Craig Brewer -- [snip]As much as I disagree\nwith MOST of Borski's stuff, say, one thing I appreciate about him is that he\nwill occasionally take a step back and reflect on why his theories matter and\nhow they might change our general understanding and even thematic\ninterpretations. [snip]In the most recent case, I'd want to know not just IF Fava is Hy, but I'd also want to know how that changes what we're supposed to think about Silk/Silkhorn in terms of his prophet-status, etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, there's this metaphor that I noted in \"The Book of the Long Sun\" that befuddled me for a long time. And Hy as Fava resolved that riddle. So maybe you'll like this. I'm not sure Hy being Fava reveals *in itself* anything thematically about Silk or the Rajan. But isn't Hy an important enough character to warrant her own thematic vehicles? Although it does fit nicely with the little play of Silk and Hyacinth as Simon Magus and Helena, it is hardly necessary to it.\n\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C745C61.1010407@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-24T23:57:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GUTs and so on", "in_reply_to": "<4C743846.8050903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You want those eggs with salmonella or without?\n\nI for one won't be critical. I've only read Short Sun once and am almost \ncompletely confused by it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n On 8/24/2010 3:34 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Sometimes ... and I want to be clear that I'm not singling anyone out\nhere ... nor is this a recent but rather a recurring thing ... I get\nthe feeling that there's a competition going on, whose rules I am\nunaware of, but the objective of which seems to be the erection and\nsuccessful support of the most baroque and prima facie implausible\ntheory concerning some Lupine matter; the prize being simply the gasps\nand awed admiration of our fellow Wolfeans, and that this competition\nis rather like a circus act, in that the value is not in the thing\ndone but in its difficulty." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I am feeling a little singled out.\n\nLook, it's not really a baroque or complicated explanation. It's not \nintuitive, but it's founded on one pretty well-known event in text. \nAnd lots of little clues that many people have agreed were clues \nwithout an answer to unify them into anything. It doesn't require \nsupposing vast histories that are undescribed or unalluded to. I'm \nsurprised large parts of it was even a big mystery to anyone who has \nread to In Green's Jungles, even though it was a couple years after I \nfirst read \"Short Sun\" that the the bit about Hy occurred to me. But I \ncan be a little slow.\n\nThe reason I'm not just laying it out on the fly is that I do know in \nadvance that some people will _hate_ it -- on purely philosophical \ngrounds, regardless of what the text says. And I want to make it \nclear that I'm not singling anyone out here. ;-)\n\n So, I am at least going to get the textual references down before \npresent it as a whole--although I mentioned parts before. Dave Tallman \nasked me to explain it and that's why I'm explaining it. If I'm \nperforming a circus act, I'm performing on request. Wait. Then throw \neggs.\n\nJ\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-25T03:37:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GUTs and so on", "in_reply_to": "<4C745C61.1010407@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: *I* think the Neighbors *are* at least some of the trees, so there \nya are. And the Rajan did refer to the trees as \"sleepy\" which is what \nyou'd expect from dream-travelers. IIRC someone claimed the Rajan's \nstaff made from a vine was an inhumi and that the Rajan talked to it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSleepy trees? Hm, sounds a bit like a nod to Ents.\n \nAnyway, I don't find this theory overly fantastic at all. To me it makes sense \nboth metaphorically and scientifically. Trees are multi-limbed creatures. Vines \nare parasitic to them.\n \nI think we are given evidence that all these lupine shape-shifting creatures, \nShadow Children, Inhumi and Hierogrammates had their origins in very simple, \nalmost formless organisms. They gained their eventual shape and intelligence\nby successive imitation of other, progressively more advanced creatures. Perhaps \nNeigbhors and Inhumi started out as simple trees and vines.\n \nI think the Shadow Children of St. Croix got their first taste of humanity and\nintelligence and shape with a single crash landing. This allowed them to turn \ninto abos. Later, with colonization, they just hit the jackpot with regard to\npeople to imitate. \n \nPerhaps something similar happened on Green during Urth's First Empire exploring \nout in space. What impact would the presence of human beings have arriving on a\nplanet of shapeshifting trees and parasitic vines? (keeping in mind that humans\nparasitize each other). \n \nNot sure how Blue might fit into that. Inhumi can't fly through space. But could \ntree seeds or vine spores make the trip, somehow? Black beans? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<69B2496166A640A7993A04C662B5C6A8@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-09-04T19:22:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) GUTs and so on", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nI think the Shadow Children of St. Croix got their first taste of humanity\nand\nintelligence and shape with a single crash landing. This allowed them to\nturn\ninto abos. Later, with colonization, they just hit the jackpot with regard\nto\npeople to imitate." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I read it, the Shadow Children are the degenerate remnants of the \noriginal human discoverers of St. Croix. The hillmen and marshmen are the \nSt. Croix aborigines who took on the discoverers' original form. They were \nalready of human appearance when the psychic shield surrounding the twin \nplanets was removed and the French colonists came.\n\nTo some degree they merged with the incoming colonist population and in \nselect cases such as Marsch they replaced individuals.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] } ] }