{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5730", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5730, "subject": "Seawrack's name", "messages": 20, "voices": 8, "first": "2010-08-29T03:27:21+00:00", "last": "2010-09-13T21:45:53+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-29T03:27:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio Marques: I don't know whether this has been pointed out before, but it is a \nfact that 'Seawrack' and 'Scylla' are almost equal as names go. Or, at least, the name\nmisheard as 'Seawrack' could easily be a derivate of the name\nmisconstrued(?) as 'Scylla'...Yes, I know I've been implying that the greek pronunciation\nof a name such as Scylla would be something like ['skulla] 'SKOOL luh'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI hope I am not being insulting in noting that the English pronunciation of Scylla usually\ninvolves a silent \"c\" like scissors or scintillating. This would bring Scylla's \npronunciation even closer to Seawrack.\n \nBut Horn is very familiar with the female name \"Scylla\" from his religious studies and I \ncan't see how he could hear that name and feel the need to convert it to \"seawrack\"\n \nApologies for redundant posts, but for me the even closer similarity of \"shipwreck\" to \n\"seawrack\" gnaws at me as an intended association.\n \nWe know that the purpose of the mythological sirens was to cause shipwrecks. Moreover these\nquotes suggest to me that was Seawrack's original purpose also:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Horn: The real riddle concerning Seawrack is this: If the Mother took care of Seawrack in \norder that Seawrack might lure others....did the Mother send her back among her own kind so\nthat she might lure more or lure them better?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seawrack: \"You were dead...I saw you down there. Dead things are food... You were dead...\nDead people are to eat.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Horn: \"The sea goddess, Do you know her name?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seawrack: \"No, if I ever did I've forgotten it. I don't want to remember her anymore...I'm\ngoing to try to forget the song...and forget the water and the underwater woman and the boats \nunderwater with people in them. That was why I wouldn't eat your fish. I don't want to eat \nfish or drowned meat, never any more.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Horn: \"Somewhere she is singing for me at this moment....Seawrack has beyond any question found\nher way back to the waves and the spume, the secret currents, and her black, wave-washed rocks.\nThere will come a stormy midnight when I throw off the blankets...I will put out then in whatever\nboat I can find and you will not see me more. Do not mourn me Nettle. Every man must die and I \nknow what death I long for\" \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-29T15:16:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2010/08/29, ?s 04:27, Lee Berman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Antonio Marques: I don't know whether this has been pointed out \nbefore, but it is a\nfact that 'Seawrack' and 'Scylla' are almost equal as names go. Or, \nat least, the name\nmisheard as 'Seawrack' could easily be a derivate of the name\nmisconstrued(?) as 'Scylla'...Yes, I know I've been implying that \nthe greek pronunciation\nof a name such as Scylla would be something like ['skulla] 'SKOOL \nluh'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(not uh but the vowel in 'car')" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I hope I am not being insulting in noting that the English \npronunciation of Scylla usually\ninvolves a silent \"c\" like scissors or scintillating. This would \nbring Scylla's\npronunciation even closer to Seawrack." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, that's what I meant. I brought up the Greek just to explain why I \nthink it doesn't matter here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But Horn is very familiar with the female name \"Scylla\" from his \nreligious studies and I\ncan't see how he could hear that name and feel the need to convert \nit to \"seawrack\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because he wouldn't be hearing 'Scylla' but rather the original that \ngot misheard/construed as 'Scylla', or a derivate of that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Apologies for redundant posts, but for me the even closer similarity \nof \"shipwreck\" to\n\"seawrack\" gnaws at me as an intended association." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I got that, but I don't find it logical (of course the name itself \nmakes sense, but not to me the way" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "We know that the purpose of the mythological sirens was to cause \nshipwrecks. Moreover these\nquotes suggest to me that was Seawrack's original purpose also:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Horn: The real riddle concerning Seawrack is this: If the Mother \ntook care of Seawrack in\norder that Seawrack might lure others....did the Mother send her \nback among her own kind so\nthat she might lure more or lure them better?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seawrack: \"You were dead...I saw you down there. Dead things are \nfood... You were dead...\nDead people are to eat.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Horn: \"The sea goddess, Do you know her name?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Seawrack: \"No, if I ever did I've forgotten it. I don't want to \nremember her anymore...I'm\ngoing to try to forget the song...and forget the water and the \nunderwater woman and the boats\nunderwater with people in them. That was why I wouldn't eat your \nfish. I don't want to eat\nfish or drowned meat, never any more.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Horn: \"Somewhere she is singing for me at this moment....Seawrack \nhas beyond any question found\nher way back to the waves and the spume, the secret currents, and \nher black, wave-washed rocks.\nThere will come a stormy midnight when I throw off the blankets...I \nwill put out then in whatever\nboat I can find and you will not see me more. Do not mourn me \nNettle. Every man must die and I\nknow what death I long for\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C7AECCC.8010204@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-29T23:27:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2010/08/29, ?s 16:16, entonio at gmail.com escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No dia 2010/08/29, ?s 04:27, Lee Berman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Apologies for redundant posts, but for me the even closer similarity of\n\"shipwreck\" to \"seawrack\" gnaws at me as an intended association." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I got that, but I don't find it logical (of course the name itself makes\nsense, but not to me the way" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Argh.\n\n...the way one gets to it). Everything is fine, except why the shipwreck\nmaiden would be called 'shipwreck' or why 'shipwreck' would become \n'seawrack'. I mean, of course one can find a connection, I just don't think \nit's a polished one." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C7AEFC5.8010703@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-29T23:39:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "<4C7AECCC.8010204@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nNo dia 2010/08/29, ?s 16:16, entonio at gmail.com escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No dia 2010/08/29, ?s 04:27, Lee Berman \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Apologies for redundant posts, but for me the even closer similarity of\n\"shipwreck\" to \"seawrack\" gnaws at me as an intended association." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I got that, but I don't find it logical (of course the name itself makes\nsense, but not to me the way" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Argh.\n\n...the way one gets to it). Everything is fine, except why the shipwreck\nmaiden would be called 'shipwreck' or why 'shipwreck' would become\n'seawrack'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(The narrator even mentions that he had not thought of Seawrack as a siren \nbefore Krait(?) called her so, but of course we all know that can be argued \nto mean the opposite.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-30T01:58:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "<4C7AEFC5.8010703@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio P. Marques- I don't find it logical (of course the name itself makes\nsense, but not to me the way the way one gets to it). Everything is fine, \nexcept why the shipwreck maiden would be called 'shipwreck' or why 'shipwreck' \nwould become 'seawrack'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think the issue boils down to a difference in sense of interpretation. As a \ncontrast, to my theory I'll mention Borski's theory, which included exhaustive \nbotanical research to come to the conclusion that Seawrack's real name must be a \nversion of the sea-wrack seaweed called Laminaria hyperborea with a bunch of folk \nnames one of which happens to be the Irish word \"screadhuidhe\". So that is Seawrack's \nreal name. Great.\n \nPerhaps this is exactly the name Gene Wolfe had in mind as SeaWrack's real name. But\nfor me it is a quite ridiculous solution to an openly posed puzzle. \"Screadhuidhe\"?\nIs that really what Gene Wolfe wanted us to discover here?\n \nThis seems to me a misguided, unrealistic attempt to make Gene Wolfe's literary worlds \nbe as rich and diverse, with one to one correspondence, to everything in our own\nreal world. When I read Wolfe I find him an author who is constantly aware that he is\nwriting a book, not really creating a world. \n \nThe author-reader connection is something he is highly focused on. I think he often puts \nthings in his stories which go right over the heads of his characters and are meant to go \nstraight from author to reader. An example might include a painting of a moon landing that \nonly we can reconize contains an American flag. It is an \"in\" reference. (especially to \nWolfe's fellow patriotic Americans ;- ))\n \nLikewise I find the association of the words \"wreck\" and \"wrack\" to be an \"in\" reference\nfor English speakers. These are odd words- very few others in English are like them.\n(they are joined by wreak). But long before I ever read Short Sun I always thought of \n\"wreck\" when I heard the word \"wrack\". So when I was first reading Blue's Waters and \nlearned that Seawrack was a Siren I immediately went scurrying back to the section where \nHorn names her to make the connection.\n \nPerhaps I am alone among English speakers in always associating \"wreck\" and \"wrack\". \nMaybe others consider such an idea nonsense. But for me the pieces fall in line nicely.\nShipwreck is just a more pleasant \"eureka\" sort of solution for me than screadhuidhe.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-30T11:37:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio- Everything is fine, except why the shipwreck\nmaiden would be called 'shipwreck' or why 'shipwreck' would become \n'seawrack'. I mean, of course one can find a connection, I just don't think \nit's a polished one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, if the \"shipwreck\" idea doesn't float (heh) perhaps it is something else.\nNone of the names I've found for the mythological sirens fit in.\n \nAnother guess on Seawrack's real name (spoken by both Seawrack and the Mother)\nis \"Sirenia\". This is the scientific order name for manatees and dugongs. It\ndoesn't sound/look as similar as shipwreck. But it could then tie the Mother and\nsirens to Abaia and the undines, who are often confused for manatees. Nice that it \nconnects sirens and mermaids and Blue and Urth all together.\n \nPerhaps \"syrinx\" is another outside possibility. It is the name for a bird's \nsinging organ but also the mythological nymph who, in trying to escape rape by\nPan (Pas?) drowned and was turned into hollow reeds (hence the creation of the \npan pipe).\n \nCould Wolfe have had all three words in mind with Seawrack? Well, sigh, I dunno.\nAs long as it isn't screadhuidhe I am happy ;- ).\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C7BA758.3010007@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-30T12:43:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Whatever name Horn heard, I'll find it hard to believe it didn't start \nwith an \"s\" in the first syllable and end with a K or \"chi\" sound.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-30T13:50:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "<4C7BA758.3010007@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Whatever name Horn heard, I'll find it hard to believe it didn't start \nwith an \"s\" in the first syllable and end with a K or \"chi\" sound." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hm...sounds cryptic. As though you had an answer in mind. Spill the beans or I'll be \nforced to assume your theory is that Seawrack and Mother are living backward in time\nand the name Horn heard was Kypris. ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C7BC1ED.4040201@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-30T14:36:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: Whatever name Horn heard, I'll find it hard to believe it didn't start\nwith an \"s\" in the first syllable and end with a K or \"chi\" sound." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee - Hm...sounds cryptic. As though you had an answer in mind. Spill the beans or I'll be forced to assume your theory is that Seawrack and Mother are living backward in time\nand the name Horn heard was Kypris. ;- ). \t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmm...like the sound of that idea. I wish it were true.\n\nNo. I really don't have an answer. But I know what I'm looking for: When \npeople hear \"something that sounds like\", they hear the first and last \nsounds. The word we're looking for either starts with and S or starts \nwith a vowel and the first consonant is an S. It ends with voiceless \nvelar plosive (such as k) or a voiceless uvular fricative (such as chi). \nI'd also prefer that it use a schwa sound in the last syllable or \nsomething close to that.\n\nThus, while /syrinx/ works on a lot of levels (including Seawrack's \nsinging), I'm unhappy with \"inx\" ending because it actually ends with an \nS sound and it's vowel is the \"ing\" sound. Still, I think it is the most \nsolid possibility suggested so far. And if Wolfe had other reasons for \nthe term /seawrack/ it would be close enough for him.\n\nu+15b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<5f1f4df7a04e14b02edfea9a579c1854@imap.io.com>", "from": { "name": "adam at io.com", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-30T17:04:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 09:50:17 -0400, Lee Berman \nwrote:\nJames Wynn: Whatever name Horn heard, I'll find it hard to believe it\ndidn't start\nwith an \"s\" in the first syllable and end with a K or \"chi\" sound." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm...sounds cryptic. As though you had an answer in mind. Spill the\nbeans\nor I'll be \nforced to assume your theory is that Seawrack and Mother are living\nbackward in time\nand the name Horn heard was Kypris. ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Shrek.\n\nBecause Wolfe is trolling us.\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "<02af81bf355c77a8c9e3c407d6f965f7@imap.io.com>", "from": { "name": "Adam Thornton IO", "address": "adam at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-30T17:16:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, 30 Aug 2010 09:50:17 -0400, Lee Berman \nwrote:\nJames Wynn: Whatever name Horn heard, I'll find it hard to believe it\ndidn't start\nwith an \"s\" in the first syllable and end with a K or \"chi\" sound." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hm...sounds cryptic. As though you had an answer in mind. Spill the\nbeans\nor I'll be \nforced to assume your theory is that Seawrack and Mother are living\nbackward in time\nand the name Horn heard was Kypris. ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Remember the nearly-offensive Asian accent in _AEG_ ?\n\nYeah, the one that mispronounced \"L\" as \"R\" ?\n\nSo...how *did* Silk get himself, or a splinter of himself, into a siren?\n\nAdam" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-08-30T18:21:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "<02af81bf355c77a8c9e3c407d6f965f7@imap.io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This article on wikipedia got me thinking:\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrenka\n\nThe warrior mermaid depicted on the Coat of Arms of Warsaw is called a\n\"syrenka\" (little mermaid in Polish). I notice also that it has one arm\nbehind a shield, effectively cutting it off. (It's the left arm and not the\nright, but it's still a \"missing\" arm). The name is also similar enough\nthat I could see Horn converting it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-30T18:26:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good lord, man. Are you suggesting that Seawrack's name is a Polish joke?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nThis article on wikipedia got me\nthinking:?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrenka\nThe warrior mermaid depicted on the Coat of Arms of Warsaw is called a\n\"syrenka\" (little mermaid in Polish). I notice also that it has one arm\nbehind a shield, effectively cutting it off. (It's the left arm and not the\nright, but it's still a \"missing\" arm). ?The name is also similar enough\nthat I could see Horn converting it.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C7BFC6D.90203@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-30T18:46:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I like this reference on a lot of levels. Check the article on \nMelusina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melusine) that linked to in the \nsyrenka article.\n\nIncidentally, while we're on the subject of heraldry. I'm pretty sure \nthe lion-head fellow in \"The Sorcerer's House\", the one with a sword and \na book, is the Lion of St. Mark. \nhttp://europeforvisitors.com/venice/articles/winged_lion_of_st_mark.htm\n\nNow ask me why it's in a faerieland story. I don't know.\n\nu+16b9" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/30/2010 1:21 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nThis article on wikipedia got me thinking: \nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrenka\n\nThe warrior mermaid depicted on the Coat of Arms of Warsaw is called a \n\"syrenka\" (little mermaid in Polish). I notice also that it has one \narm behind a shield, effectively cutting it off. (It's the left arm \nand not the right, but it's still a \"missing\" arm). The name is also \nsimilar enough that I could see Horn converting it.\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C7C143B.6040706@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-30T20:27:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "<4C7BFC6D.90203@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I'm pretty sure Wolfe is as deeply familiar with heraldry as he is \nwith mythology and the Tarot. It is, after all, a system of Christian \nsymbolism.\n\nAnd that coat of arms is not purely Polish---the Queen's Royal Hussars \n(UK) wear it, among others. It's \"around.\"\n\nI wouldn't take \"syrenka\" as a joke at all, except maybe for the missing \narm. Otherwise, except for lacking a sword and shield, the Syrenka is \nespecially fitting because she used to be a female water-dragon, and \nbefore that a male one (from the Wiki). She's a monster.\n\nIf Seawrack is a part of Scylla, then she is certainly \"little\" even if \nshe's a siren and not a mermaid.\n\nThe sound match is even better than \"syrinx.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/30/2010 2:46 PM, James Wynn wrote:\nI like this reference on a lot of levels. Check the article on \nMelusina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melusine) that linked to in the \nsyrenka article.\n\nIncidentally, while we're on the subject of heraldry. I'm pretty sure \nthe lion-head fellow in \"The Sorcerer's House\", the one with a sword \nand a book, is the Lion of St. Mark. \nhttp://europeforvisitors.com/venice/articles/winged_lion_of_st_mark.htm\n\nNow ask me why it's in a faerieland story. I don't know.\n\nu+16b9\n\nOn 8/30/2010 1:21 PM, Dave Tallman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "This article on wikipedia got me thinking: \nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Syrenka\n\nThe warrior mermaid depicted on the Coat of Arms of Warsaw is called \na \"syrenka\" (little mermaid in Polish). I notice also that it has one \narm behind a shield, effectively cutting it off. (It's the left arm \nand not the right, but it's still a \"missing\" arm). The name is also \nsimilar enough that I could see Horn converting it." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-31T01:47:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "<4C7C143B.6040706@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- If Seawrack is a part of Scylla, then she is certainly \"little\" even if \nshe's a siren and not a mermaid." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAt the risk of mucking up David's perfectly good Andersenian reference I'd want to note \nthat sirens and mermaids are not really distinct creatures. The sirens are often depicted\nas mermaids and mermaids were often supposed to have a seductive, deadly allure. I think \nthe legends are all intertwined.\n \nManatees are supposed to be the real world inspiration for mermaids. As mentioned, their\norder classification is Sirenia. We know undines are confused with manatees in BotNS. I \ndon't remember Juturna singing but she certainly had a seductive nature, luring Severian\ntoward an underwater future. \n \nWolfe is certainly giving those European water nymphs/demons their due. Joining the undines\nand nixies and kelpies that are mentioned in BotNS, now we might have a melusine/syrenka \ninspiration to the siren of the Short Sun. \n \nI like the idea of a pinched off piece of a larger entity as the origin for undines and \nSeawrack. But I notice in these European legends of the creatures there is often a Changeling\naspect. And some of the Mother and Seawrack's talk does suggest Seawrack could have been\na child stolen from her real mother. I suspect another one of those double possibility\nsolutions WOlfe throws at us.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C7CEAF8.2080101@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-31T11:43:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Absolutely! And Wolfe mixes them up anyway.\n\nIf the Syrenka is involved at all, she is not known for being a siren. \nBut Seawrack is.\n\nIt's not much of a stretch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "On 8/30/2010 9:47 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff- If Seawrack is a part of Scylla, then she is certainly \"little\" even if\nshe's a siren and not a mermaid." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "At the risk of mucking up David's perfectly good Andersenian reference I'd want to note\nthat sirens and mermaids are not really distinct creatures. The sirens are often depicted\nas mermaids and mermaids were often supposed to have a seductive, deadly allure. I think\nthe legends are all intertwined.\n\nManatees are supposed to be the real world inspiration for mermaids. As mentioned, their\norder classification is Sirenia. We know undines are confused with manatees in BotNS. I\ndon't remember Juturna singing but she certainly had a seductive nature, luring Severian\ntoward an underwater future.\n\nWolfe is certainly giving those European water nymphs/demons their due. Joining the undines\nand nixies and kelpies that are mentioned in BotNS, now we might have a melusine/syrenka\ninspiration to the siren of the Short Sun." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-31T13:22:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "<4C7CEAF8.2080101@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 9:13 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n Absolutely! And Wolfe mixes them up anyway.\n\nIf the Syrenka is involved at all, she is not known for being a siren. But\nSeawrack is.\n\nIt's not much of a stretch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Whatever the Mother calls her, I think it's pretty clear how Horn comes to\ncall her \"Seawrack\".\n\nWhile walking on the island he pulls up some of the ground cover and sees in\nhis hand \"a little, weak, torn thing\", and \"knew it for the green scum I had\nseen washed ashore after storms\". In other words, what might be called\n\"seawrack\", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawrack\n\nWouldn't be at all surprising if \"Seawrack\" is a recognised female Vironese\nname.\n\nShortly afterward that, he meets her and hears a name which suggests to him\n\"Seawrack\", because of a similarity in sounds, because of her hair \"misted\ngreen by some microscopic sea-plant\", and just because it seems to him to\nsuit her - presumably in part because she appears to him then in some\nrespects \"a little, weak, torn thing\".\n\nPersonally, I think that trying to reconstruct the name the Mother calls her\nby is one of those Wolfean invitations to drive oneself bat-shit - simply\nnot enough information. My guess is that it's something Neighbor-ish.\nAnyway, Horn never seems to have trouble with the names of the human\n\"foreigners\" he encounters." } ] }, { "message_id": "<651105.32396.qm@web84101.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-31T14:00:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sure, seawrack is a plant name, which is necessary to apply it to a female person. And it fits her much better than Seaweed.\n\nI wouldn't try to suggest that Horn speaks Polish, anyway ... that's an association _we_ might make.\n\n--- On Tue, 8/31/10, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\n\nFrom: Mr Thalassocrat \nSubject: Re: (urth) Seawrack's name\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 9:22 AM\n\n\n\n\nOn Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 9:13 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\n\n?Absolutely! And Wolfe mixes them up anyway.\n\nIf the Syrenka is involved at all, she is not known for being a siren. But Seawrack is.\n\n\nIt's not much of a stretch. \n\n\nWhatever the Mother calls her, I think it's pretty clear how Horn comes to call her?\"Seawrack\". \n\nWhile walking on the island he pulls up some of the ground cover and sees in his hand \"a little, weak, torn thing\", and \"knew it for the green scum I had seen washed ashore after storms\". In other words, what might be called \"seawrack\", http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seawrack\n\n\nWouldn't be at all surprising if?\"Seawrack\"?is a recognised female Vironese name.\n\nShortly afterward that, he meets her and hears a name which suggests to him \"Seawrack\", because of a similarity in sounds, because of her hair \"misted green by some microscopic sea-plant\", and just because it seems to him to suit her - presumably in part because she appears to him then in some respects \"a little, weak, torn thing\".\n\n\nPersonally, I think that trying to reconstruct the name the Mother calls her by is one of those Wolfean invitations to drive oneself bat-shit - simply not enough information. My guess is that it's something Neighbor-ish. Anyway, Horn never seems to have trouble with the names of the human \"foreigners\" he encounters.\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C8E9B91.3020408@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-13T21:45:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Seawrack's name", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\nI think the issue boils down to a difference in sense of\ninterpretation. As a contrast, to my theory I'll mention Borski's\ntheory, which included exhaustive botanical research to come to the\nconclusion that Seawrack's real name must be a version of the\nsea-wrack seaweed called Laminaria hyperborea with a bunch of folk\nnames one of which happens to be the Irish word \"screadhuidhe\". So\nthat is Seawrack's real name. Great.\n\nPerhaps this is exactly the name Gene Wolfe had in mind as SeaWrack's\nreal name. But for me it is a quite ridiculous solution to an openly\nposed puzzle. \"Screadhuidhe\"? Is that really what Gene Wolfe wanted\nus to discover here?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The word is - appears to be, since the only reference to it is quite \nobscure - 'screadhbhuidhe'. Now, 'screadhbhuidhe' is more or less \ntransparently two words, 'screadh bhuidhe', of which the first is \nprobably a noun and the second and adjective. So far so good.\n\nBut the phonetics is completely off. There are a couple of different \npronunciations possible for such a wword, but none comes nowhere near \nSeawrack. Screadhbhuidhe is something like shkrayvee, shkrayvooy, \nshkrahvee, shkravooy. I can't see how that would become Seawrack.\n\nAs to meaning... bhuidhe is the lenited form of scottish or pre-reform \nirish buidhe ('yellow' - and just barely possibly 'buoyant' if it's \nscottish), current irish bu?. Either will do for a brown alga. But \nscreadh is enigmatic (the sc- establishes it as irish rather than \nscottish), because the only root similar to it means 'scream'. There's \nthe remote possibility that it is a variant of pre-reform cr?adh, \ncurrent cr?, which means 'earth', 'clay'.\n\nSo, even if the seaweed name is good gaelic, it has nothing to do with \nSeawrack, and 'yellow scream', 'floating scream', 'yellow clay' or \n'floating clay' aren't in the least enlightening.\n\nPlus, vironese naming conventions are vironese, and rendered in english. \nWhoever gave Seawrack her name isn't vironese, nor is there any reason \nto suppose a vironese original, and Screadhbhuidhe isn't english." } ] } ] }