{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5732", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5732, "subject": "The Lochage's Rant...", "messages": 8, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-08-31T02:31:28+00:00", "last": "2010-08-31T23:27:06+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-31T02:31:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Lochage's Rant...", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello All,\n\nI have had a hard time with a passage from Shadow... the rant the lochage gives to Severian in the bartizan. He is telling Severian how vast Nessus is, how all attempts to count them have failed, and so forth.\n\nBut he describes the city in this passage, as follows:\n\n\"The city grows and changes every night, like writing chalked on a wall. Houses are built in the streets by clever people who take up the cobbles in the dark and claim the ground - did you know that?\"\n\nI think I understand the second part. I'm not sure what taking up the cobbles in the dark means exactly, but this has something to do with clever people claiming land as their own by stealing it in the dark? Anyhow...\n\nMore importantly, what does he mean by the city changing every night? And how is writing chalked on a wall the right metaphor here. Is he saying there are so many people, that every day a line of buildings might appear, while another might crumble?\n\nIf anybody can help here, I would appreciate it.\n\nThank You,\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gwern Branwen", "address": "gwern0 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-31T04:28:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Lochage's Rant...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 10:31 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nHello All,\n\nI have had a hard time with a passage from Shadow... the rant the lochage gives to Severian in the bartizan. He is telling Severian how vast Nessus is, how all attempts to count them have failed, and so forth.\n\nBut he describes the city in this passage, as follows:\n\n\"The city grows and changes every night, like writing chalked on a wall. Houses are built in the streets by clever people who take up the cobbles in the dark and claim the ground - did you know that?\"\n\nI think I understand the second part. I'm not sure what taking up the cobbles in the dark means exactly, but this has something to do with clever people claiming land as their own by stealing it in the dark? Anyhow..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He's referring to the practice of extending houses out into the street\n(just plop your timbers on top of the cobblestones, or remove the\nstones first, and build upwards), or just brazenly building an entire\nhouse in the street. Once the building is *there*, who's going to\nobject? He's being pretty literal there." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "gwern" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C7C8921.5060609@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-08-31T04:46:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Lochage's Rant...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/30/2010 9:31 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nHello All,\n\nI have had a hard time with a passage from Shadow... the rant the lochage gives to Severian in the bartizan. He is telling Severian how vast Nessus is, how all attempts to count them have failed, and so forth.\n\nBut he describes the city in this passage, as follows:\n\n\"The city grows and changes every night, like writing chalked on a wall. Houses are built in the streets by clever people who take up the cobbles in the dark and claim the ground - did you know that?\"\n\nI think I understand the second part. I'm not sure what taking up the cobbles in the dark means exactly, but this has something to do with clever people claiming land as their own by stealing it in the dark? Anyhow..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If you google on \"cobblestone street\" you can see lots of streets, \nsidewalks, and plazas paved with a variety of cobblesstones from natural \nfound rocks to shaped and polished stones to bricks, closely or loosely \ntesselated to form a durable, weather-proof surface for foot and \nvehicular traffic in these public areas.\n\n\"Clever people\" can arrange for a party to clear an area of these stones \nand put up a quick-and-dirty shed in the place so that by the light of \nthe next day, it looks like the place was never paved to start with and \nhas been a private home all along. The cobbles are also worth money if \nthey can be hauled to where new development is taking place." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "More importantly, what does he mean by the city changing every night? And how is writing chalked on a wall the right metaphor here. Is he saying there are so many people, that every day a line of buildings might appear, while another might crumble?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "With multiple hand-made buildings per person, there are always \nopportunities to tear down here and reassemble there. I imagine it \nyields something like the the Brazilian favelas:\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favela" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C7CED23.4060002@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-08-31T11:53:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Lochage's Rant...", "in_reply_to": "<4C7C8921.5060609@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " The favelas were my first thought as well. Nessus is a bona fide \nmegacity, with a core (or two) and vast slums.\n\nThese slums border on wasteland---the only difference between Nessus and \nour megacities is that ours are growing. Nessus dies every day as it \nmoves north, although so slowly you can't see it. It's hidden.\n\nI'm also a little mystified by the need for this description. But it \nseems like a kind of circle-of-life metaphor. Nessus is both alive and \ndying. And since to some degree it stands in for the Commonwealth and \nthe Commonwealth stands in for Urth, Nessus _is_ Urth.\n\nI'd look there." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 8/31/2010 12:46 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 8/30/2010 9:31 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hello All,\n\nI have had a hard time with a passage from Shadow... the rant the \nlochage gives to Severian in the bartizan. He is telling Severian how \nvast Nessus is, how all attempts to count them have failed, and so \nforth.\n\nBut he describes the city in this passage, as follows:\n\n\"The city grows and changes every night, like writing chalked on a \nwall. Houses are built in the streets by clever people who take up \nthe cobbles in the dark and claim the ground - did you know that?\"\n\nI think I understand the second part. I'm not sure what taking up the \ncobbles in the dark means exactly, but this has something to do with \nclever people claiming land as their own by stealing it in the dark? \nAnyhow..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If you google on \"cobblestone street\" you can see lots of streets, \nsidewalks, and plazas paved with a variety of cobblesstones from \nnatural found rocks to shaped and polished stones to bricks, closely \nor loosely tesselated to form a durable, weather-proof surface for \nfoot and vehicular traffic in these public areas.\n\n\"Clever people\" can arrange for a party to clear an area of these \nstones and put up a quick-and-dirty shed in the place so that by the \nlight of the next day, it looks like the place was never paved to \nstart with and has been a private home all along. The cobbles are also \nworth money if they can be hauled to where new development is taking \nplace." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "More importantly, what does he mean by the city changing every night? \nAnd how is writing chalked on a wall the right metaphor here. Is he \nsaying there are so many people, that every day a line of buildings \nmight appear, while another might crumble?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "With multiple hand-made buildings per person, there are always \nopportunities to tear down here and reassemble there. I imagine it \nyields something like the the Brazilian favelas:\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Favela" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Cliff Judge", "address": "transentient at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-08-31T15:19:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Lochage's Rant...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here's a picture of a Hong Kong street that might serve as an imagination\naid:\n\nhttp://www.flickr.com/photos/move_lachine/3511703292/in/set-72157594318161277/" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:28 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote:\nOn Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 10:31 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hello All,\n\nI have had a hard time with a passage from Shadow... the rant the lochage\ngives to Severian in the bartizan. He is telling Severian how vast Nessus\nis, how all attempts to count them have failed, and so forth.\n\nBut he describes the city in this passage, as follows:\n\n\"The city grows and changes every night, like writing chalked on a wall." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Houses are built in the streets by clever people who take up the cobbles in\nthe dark and claim the ground - did you know that?\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think I understand the second part. I'm not sure what taking up the\ncobbles in the dark means exactly, but this has something to do with clever\npeople claiming land as their own by stealing it in the dark? Anyhow..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He's referring to the practice of extending houses out into the street\n(just plop your timbers on top of the cobblestones, or remove the\nstones first, and build upwards), or just brazenly building an entire\nhouse in the street. Once the building is *there*, who's going to\nobject? He's being pretty literal there.\n\n--\ngwern\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Steven Bowen", "address": "mcquaryq at comcast.net" }, "date": "2010-08-31T18:14:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Lochage's Rant...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cobbles are stones used to build the streets. The 'chalk on the \nwall' imagery suggests grafitti to me. Pretty obvious. He uses the \ngrafitti idea to speak to the illegal nature of the changes. The \ninability for the authorities to enforce even simple boundary lines \nlike streets.\n\nSteve" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 30, 2010, at 10:31 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI think I understand the second part. I'm not sure what taking up \nthe cobbles in the dark means exactly, but this has something to do \nwith clever people claiming land as their own by stealing it in the \ndark? Anyhow...\n\nMore importantly, what does he mean by the city changing every \nnight? And how is writing chalked on a wall the right metaphor \nhere. Is he saying there are so many people, that every day a line \nof buildings might appear, while another might crumble?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-08-31T18:41:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Lochage's Rant...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Aug 31, 2010, at 2:14 PM, Steven Bowen wrote:\nCobbles are stones used to build the streets. The 'chalk on the wall' imagery suggests grafitti to me. Pretty obvious. He uses the grafitti idea to speak to the illegal nature of the changes. The inability for the authorities to enforce even simple boundary lines like streets.\n\nSteve\nOn Aug 30, 2010, at 10:31 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think I understand the second part. I'm not sure what taking up the cobbles in the dark means exactly, but this has something to do with clever people claiming land as their own by stealing it in the dark? Anyhow...\n\nMore importantly, what does he mean by the city changing every night? And how is writing chalked on a wall the right metaphor here. Is he saying there are so many people, that every day a line of buildings might appear, while another might crumble?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks to all for clearing this up. I definitely \"get it\" now. This makes sense, as the lochage is basically describing how there are too many people to even tax, and the idea of claiming land rights by night, illegally, supports this anarchist dystopia more clearly.\n\nThanks.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<391074.19400.qm@web50703.mail.re2.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Jerry Friedman", "address": "jerry_friedman at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-08-31T23:27:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Lochage's Rant...", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Tue, Aug 31, 2010 at 12:28 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Mon, Aug 30, 2010 at 10:31 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nHello All,\n\nI have had a hard time with a passage from Shadow... the rant the lochage gives \nto Severian in the bartizan. He is telling Severian how vast Nessus is, how all \nattempts to count them have failed, and so forth.\n\nBut he describes the city in this passage, as follows:\n\n\"The city grows and changes every night, like writing chalked on a wall. Houses \nare built in the streets by clever people who take up the cobbles in the dark \nand claim the ground - did you know that?\"\n\nI think I understand the second part. I'm not sure what taking up the cobbles \nin the dark means exactly, but this has something to do with clever people \nclaiming land as their own by stealing it in the dark? Anyhow..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "He's referring to the practice of extending houses out into the street\n(just plop your timbers on top of the cobblestones, or remove the\nstones first, and build upwards), or just brazenly building an entire\nhouse in the street. Once the building is *there*, who's going to\nobject? He's being pretty literal there." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the people are even clever enough to use the pried-up cobblestones as \npart of the material for their houses.\n\nJerry Friedman\n\n\n " } ] } ] }