{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5740", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5740, "subject": "The Pelerine (COTA 12)", "messages": 12, "voices": 6, "first": "2010-09-09T21:07:18+00:00", "last": "2010-09-14T22:51:58+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-09T21:07:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 12)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hi. I'm new here, but have been lurking for a while. I read BOTNS a\nwhile ago, but didn't feel qualified to take part in discussion till I\nhad read _Urth_, which I have just finished.\n\nPeople comment from time to time on characters in BOTNS who aren't\nnamed, although they seem significant enough to have names - e.g. the\nAutarch or the old boatman. One I haven't seen discussed is the\nPelerine Severian talks with in COTA chapter 8. I think she is\nparticularly notable, because this part of the book is very carefully\nstructured. The odd chapters contain stories from Foila and co.: the\neven chapters contain meetings of Severian with people connected with\nthe Pelerines. Three of them are named - Ava, Winnoc and Mannea - but\nthis one, even though the chapter is called after her, is just 'the\nPelerine'.\n\nAny thoughts on what her significance could be?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C896D5B.8040100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-09T23:27:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 12)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " She has a lot to say, but I'm not sure she has much importance as a \ncharacter.\n\nShe seems to present some Catholic-type ideas, insofar as that is \npossible, as well as to explain some things we need to know to \"get\" the \nbook. That chapter contains a good amount of such material." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/9/2010 5:07 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nHi. I'm new here, but have been lurking for a while. I read BOTNS a\nwhile ago, but didn't feel qualified to take part in discussion till I\nhad read _Urth_, which I have just finished.\n\nPeople comment from time to time on characters in BOTNS who aren't\nnamed, although they seem significant enough to have names - e.g. the\nAutarch or the old boatman. One I haven't seen discussed is the\nPelerine Severian talks with in COTA chapter 8. I think she is\nparticularly notable, because this part of the book is very carefully\nstructured. The odd chapters contain stories from Foila and co.: the\neven chapters contain meetings of Severian with people connected with\nthe Pelerines. Three of them are named - Ava, Winnoc and Mannea - but\nthis one, even though the chapter is called after her, is just 'the\nPelerine'.\n\nAny thoughts on what her significance could be?\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-10T03:09:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 12)", "in_reply_to": "<4C896D5B.8040100@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "People comment from time to time on characters in BOTNS who aren't\nnamed, although they seem significant enough to have names - e.g. the\nAutarch or the old boatman. One I haven't seen discussed is the\nPelerine Severian talks with in COTA chapter 8. I think she is\nparticularly notable, because this part of the book is very carefully\nstructured. The odd chapters contain stories from Foila and co.: the\neven chapters contain meetings of Severian with people connected with\nthe Pelerines. Three of them are named - Ava, Winnoc and Mannea - but\nthis one, even though the chapter is called after her, is just 'the\nPelerine'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWelcome Andrew! I think your observation of how the chapters alternate is\ngood. I often think that chapter names provide more clues to what is going\non than what is frequently acknowledged here. Especially good is your \nobservation that, as much as we might obsess about names, sometimes the \nnon-naming of a character can be a marker of significance.\n \nWhy DO the other Pelerine characters get names but this one doesn't? I think\nthis is Wolfe being especially devious. Which means that I don't really know \nwhat the significance is. All I have is a guess and some conjecture.\n \nWhen Severian is talking to Cyriaca, she first tells him that she has had no\ncontact with any of the Pelerines since leaving. Later, under fear of torture, \nCyriaca tells Severian that she got a letter a week ago from her friend,\nEinhildis, saying the Pelerines were stationed at the Autarch's battle camp\nat Orithiya.\n \nBeing at Orithiya, and unnamed, I must guess this older Pelerine is Einhildis.\nI don't see anything mysterious about Einhildis herself. So my guess is that her\nun-naming is a pointer back to Cyriaca, telling us to pay careful attention to \nall she says and to read as much as possible into it, including omissions and\ndeceptions. \n \nMy conjectures about Cyriaca are:\n \n1. She is a family member of Severian's, probably aunt. They have sex, so no great\nsurprise there. Perhaps she is mother to Agia and Agilus as she plans to go to escape\nback to Nessus to sew and cook.\n \n2. Her mysterious (and likely lecherous) uncle who told her so many stories and seems\nto know more about the cosmic history of humanity than anyone else on Urth might be\nFather Inire.\n \n3. Severian's question to Cyriaca about whether the Pelerines dabble in necromancy is \nnever answered, suggesting to me that they do. Meaning they are probably associated\nwith the Witches. (I think the Citadel is mentioned to have a Red Tower and a Tower of \nHealing). We know that the Pelerines are primarily an exultant order. But we have \nevidence (secret beautification, khaibits, experiments with hairless creatures) that\nexultant Chatelaines also have some connection to witches. Secret connections all over\nthe place.\n \n4. Cyriaca discusses the landing of cacogens in the north and they they'd want to \"avoid\nthe mirrors at the House Absolute so they could escape the eyes of the Autarch.\" She \ndiscusses political tension between exultants and the Autarch, between the Autarch and the\ncacogens (hierodules). Stuff even Thecla knows only as rumor. Again, it seems Cyriaca's \nuncle has been filling her in on very secret stuff known only by the guys at the very top.\n \nOf course the cacogens do show up at the House Absolute for Dr. Talos' play, so Cyriaca \nisn't a perfectly reliable source of information. Still, I think the whole thing (along with\nPalaemon and Rudesind forgetting their lines) smacks of a big set-up for Severian. A play\ndesigned to set him on a particular course. Severian has been steered to Orithya. \n \nMaster Ash observes that the Ascians mounting their current massive offensive can only be\nexplained by one purpose: \"your foes have need of an immediate victory and are straining \nevery limb\". I assume that need is related to the presence of Severian on the battlefield.\nI'm still not completely sure which parties are hoping he will be killed and which parties\nare hoping he will become Autarch and New Sun.\n \nWell, okay probably too much. As the old Autarch tells Severian, \"you asked me for a light for\nyour candle, and I tried to give you the sun...\". But hopefully at least a little helpful. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-13T12:13:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 12)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (quoting Lee Berman):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In recent discussions we've sorta determined that the Hierogrammates were\nprobably created by\nhumans from Ushas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew: Please note that the \"we\" of this determination consists entirely\nof Lee and the mouse in their pocket. The majority view (of those\nexpressing opinions) seems to be that the Hierogrammates and were the\nproducts of humans of a previous Big Bang/Big Crunch cycle. Meanwhile, the\nhumans of Ushas are the conventional descendants of the humans of Urth,\nand their only visible offspring race is that of the Green Man." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's how I would read it - with the corollary that, if all goes to\nplan, future humans from Ushas will at some remote time produce a new\nrace of Hierogrammates.\n\nBut I don't think that's what Cyriaca is talking about. Her story is\nneither about the future nor about a previous cycle, but about the\npast of her own cycle. I have just looked at her story again, and it\ndoes indeed have curious parallels with that of the Hierogrammates -\nboth they and the machines are created by humans, and try both to\nbenefit and to punish them in some way. But I still don't think it can\nbe the same. The machines are real, and are not the same as\nHierogrammates - Malrubius, recalling Cyriaca, says there is one on\nhis ship. And Cyriaca says the outline of her story is common\nknowledge, though the details aren't, whereas Malrubius' story is of\ncourse deeply secret.\n\nI do think Cyriaca's story is quite important, by the way, because it\nexplains why, though the physical distance between our time and\nSeverian's is enormous, the cultural distance at times seems strangely\nsmall. The various bits of cultural inheritance haven't been handed\ndown continuously; they were returned to humans by computers just a\nfew thousand years before Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nI think the question becomes- why did the Hierogrammates give Severian the power to change\nUrth to Ushas? “Are they divine judges above the fray” Or are they taking a hand in their\nown creation? I see evidence for both." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I would say they are taking a hand in the creation of beings _like_\nthem, and hence in preserving their kind (in a rather abstract sense\nof kind; not their biological species). That need not stop them having\nother motives as well." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-13T13:29:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 12)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Andrew Mason ", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-13T14:03:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 12)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr Thalassocrat wrote (13-09-2010 14:29):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Pity the poor sleepers!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Has anyone analyzed at length the sleepers' role?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<87228.33841.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-13T15:20:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 12)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Vironese naming system may have been made up by Typhon's people, or it may have been a relic of another time unfamiliar to us but just as \"real\" as Dutch, or both (i.e., the Whorl is not in our future at all but in the future of a similar universe). It may have been used on another planet (recall that Typhon ruled many).\nOr the similarity to things familiar to us is an artifact of translation.\nBut if we follow the logic here, I'd guess that somewhere, sometime in Briah, such a system was used.\n\n--- On Mon, 9/13/10, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\n\nFrom: Mr Thalassocrat \nSubject: Re: (urth) The Pelerine (COTA 12)\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, September 13, 2010, 9:29 AM\n\n\n\n\nOn Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\n\n\nI do think Cyriaca's story is quite important, by the way, because it\nexplains why, though the physical distance between our time and\n\nSeverian's is enormous, the cultural distance at times seems strangely\nsmall. ?The various bits of cultural inheritance haven't been handed\ndown continuously; they were returned to humans by computers just a\n\nfew thousand years before Severian.\n\n\n... and then the knowledge was collected by Typhon, perhaps, in the library. This is an observation which might also help to explain some of seeming anachronisms between BOTNS and SS/LS. Languages and writings from \"our\" time are present on the Whorl not because they were current in Typhon's day, but because Typhon's cultural archeaologists put them there, \n\n\nThey didn't mine the past just for the Chras Writings etc, but for whole chunks of language and culture. So eg the \"Dorp culture\" doesn't indicate some totally unlikley survival of things Dutch into the deep future, but rather an artificial reconstruction of deep-past Dutchness by the Whorl project team.\n\n\nI like this; it has the right whiff of megalomania.\n\nPerhaps every town culture on the Whorl was just a megalo-whimsical museum reconstruction by the Whorl team, having no roots at all in the Urth of Typhon's day. \n\nViron's odd naming convention was just something they made up. \n\nPity the poor sleepers!\n\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-14T09:40:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 12)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 10:59 PM, Mr Thalassocrat\nwrote:\n\n\n On Mon, Sep 13, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Andrew Mason <\nandrew.mason53 at googlemail.com> wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I do think Cyriaca's story is quite important, by the way, because it\nexplains why, though the physical distance between our time and\nSeverian's is enormous, the cultural distance at times seems strangely\nsmall. The various bits of cultural inheritance haven't been handed\ndown continuously; they were returned to humans by computers just a\nfew thousand years before Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "... and then the knowledge was collected by Typhon, perhaps, in the\nlibrary. This is an observation which might also help to explain some of\nseeming anachronisms between BOTNS and SS/LS. Languages and writings from\n\"our\" time are present on the Whorl not because they were current in\nTyphon's day, but because Typhon's cultural archeaologists put them there,\n\nThey didn't mine the past just for the Chras Writings etc, but for whole\nchunks of language and culture. So eg the \"Dorp culture\" doesn't indicate\nsome totally unlikley survival of things Dutch into the deep future, but\nrather an artificial reconstruction of deep-past Dutchness by the Whorl\nproject team.\n\nI like this; it has the right whiff of megalomania.\n\nPerhaps every town culture on the Whorl was just a megalo-whimsical museum\nreconstruction by the Whorl team, having no roots at all in the Urth of\nTyphon's day.\n\nViron's odd naming convention was just something they made up.\n\nPity the poor sleepers!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "FWIW, I tried to find the meaning for the names of all the Dorpians given in\nthe IGJ listing, using Google translate and the Dutch version of wikipedia;\nbelow.\n\nNot all of them are bizarre or implausible, but overall I think the list is\nconsistent with hypotheses that (a) Dorpian names come from some list of\nDutch words that the Whorl team found somewhere & as a body don't have much\nto do with names that a real Dutch culture would use; and (b) the Dorpians\nquite possibly don't even speak Dutch & have no idea what these names\n\"mean\".\n\nAanvagen: Swept (mistress of house in which SilkHorn \"jailed\")\nAzijn: Vinegar (legerman)\nBeroep: Occupation, trade (husband of Aanvagen)\nCijfer: Digit, numeral (wife of Wijzer)\nHamer: Hammer (judge)\nLeeuw: Lion (legerman)\nNat: liquor, wet, soggy (magnate)\nParel: Pearl, bead (servant)\nStrik: Bow, trap, knot (captain)\nTaal: Language (advocate)\nVadsig: Lazy, slothful (servant)\nVent: Fellow, chap (advocate)\nVersregal: Should be Versregel? = Verse, line (Strik's wife)\nVlug: Fast (legerman)\nWapen: Weapon (son of tavern owner)\nWijzer: Pointer, clock hand (captain)\nZiek: Sick, diseased (merchant)\n\nI don't have enough interest at this point to try to go into \"Gaoan-culture\"\nnames, but I'd just also note along these lines \"He-pens-sheep\" as an\nunlikely name for a hunter." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-14T10:47:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 12)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 7:10 PM, Mr Thalassocrat\nwrote:\n FWIW, I tried to find the meaning for the names of all the Dorpians given\nin the IGJ listing, using Google translate and the Dutch version of\nwikipedia; below.\n\nNot all of them are bizarre or implausible, but overall I think the list is\nconsistent with hypotheses that (a) Dorpian names come from some list of\nDutch words that the Whorl team found somewhere & as a body don't have much\nto do with names that a real Dutch culture would use; and (b) the Dorpians\nquite possibly don't even speak Dutch & have no idea what these names\n\"mean\".\n\nAanvagen: Swept (mistress of house in which SilkHorn \"jailed\")\nAzijn: Vinegar (legerman)\nBeroep: Occupation, trade (husband of Aanvagen)\nCijfer: Digit, numeral (wife of Wijzer)\nHamer: Hammer (judge)\nLeeuw: Lion (legerman)\nNat: liquor, wet, soggy (magnate)\nParel: Pearl, bead (servant)\nStrik: Bow, trap, knot (captain)\nTaal: Language (advocate)\nVadsig: Lazy, slothful (servant)\nVent: Fellow, chap (advocate)\nVersregal: Should be Versregel? = Verse, line (Strik's wife)\nVlug: Fast (legerman)\nWapen: Weapon (son of tavern owner)\nWijzer: Pointer, clock hand (captain)\nZiek: Sick, diseased (merchant)\n\nI don't have enough interest at this point to try to go into\n\"Gaoan-culture\" names, but I'd just also note along these lines\n\"He-pens-sheep\" as an unlikely name for a hunter." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Again just fwiw, looking at the \"Grandecitta culture\" names, from IGJ:\nAdatta: Suitable\nAffito: Properties (Inclito's coachman)\nBello: Handsome (colonel)\nBlanko: ??? (town)\nBricco: Jug (child in Fava's story)\nBruna: Brown (mule)\nCantoro: Singer? (merchant)\nCasco: Helmet (Salica's story)\nCugino: Cousin (woodcutter)\nCuoio: Leather (Hide's name in Blanko)\nDecina: Ten (servant)\nDentro: Inside (Salica's story)\nEco: Echo (messenger)\nFava: Broad bean\nGagliardo: Strong, red blooded (astronomer)\nGioioso: Joyful (Salica's story)\nIncanto: Enchantment (Inclito's brother)\nInclito: Illustrious (de facto leader of Blanko)\nLegaro: Tie (ambassador)\nMano: Hand (trooper)\nMorello: ? (general)\nNovella Citta: New city\nOlmo: Elm (town)\nOnorifica: Honorific (servant)\nPerito: Expert, surveyor (hired hand)\nRigoglio: Luxuriance (duko)\nRimando: Return, cross-reference (messenger)\nRimo: Removal (trooper)\nSalica: Willow? (Inclito's mother)\nSborso: Disbursement (hired hand)\nSchiamazza: Cackles (servant)\nSfido: Challenge (officer)\nSoldo: Money, penny (town)\nSolenno: Solemn (Salica's story)\nTerzo: Third (officer)\nTorda: ???? (servant)\nTurco: Turk? (Salica's story)\nUgolo: Uvula (Salica's story)\nUrbanita: city sweller? (person in Blanko)\nValico: Pass (trooper)\nVivo: Living person (colonel)\nVolanta: Wheel (person in Blanko)\nVolto: Face (trooper)\nZitta: Silent (Inclito's dead wife)\n\nI don't really know what to make of that as a group: some of the names are\nfine as names, some of them make little sense. Anyway, think have to\nconclude that these people do know at least some Italian: eg Hide being\nadvised to change his name to \"Cuoio\", if nothing else. (\"Novella Citta\"\nalso, of course, but I could argue against that one as meaning too much by\nitself...)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C8F55C5.80204@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-14T11:00:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 12)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Mr Thalassocrat wrote (14-09-2010 10:40):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not all of them are bizarre or implausible, but overall I think the list\n is consistent with hypotheses that (a) Dorpian names come from some list\n of Dutch words that the Whorl team found somewhere & as a body don't\nhave much to do with names that a real Dutch culture would use; and (b)\nthe Dorpians quite possibly don't even speak Dutch & have no idea what\nthese names \"mean\"." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Here I disagree. Not only are the dorpians seafarers, which is quite dutch,\ntheir names are not weird at all. Even Dorp (english thorpe) is the word for\n'town'. Of course they are not dutch, but they do look dutch-inspired. As to\nthe language, they speak the 'common tongue' funny, with what can be\nconsidered a dutch syntax.\n\nNot that this is in any way inconsistent with the hypothesis that the \ncultures in the Whorl were fashioned from bits and scraps of urthly \noriginals rather than from the full orginals themselves." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-14T21:49:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 12)", "in_reply_to": "<4C8F55C5.80204@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "2010/9/14 Ant?nio Pedro Marques " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mr Thalassocrat wrote (14-09-2010 10:40):\n\n\nNot all of them are bizarre or implausible, but overall I think the list\n is consistent with hypotheses that (a) Dorpian names come from some list\n of Dutch words that the Whorl team found somewhere & as a body don't\nhave much to do with names that a real Dutch culture would use; and (b)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "the Dorpians quite possibly don't even speak Dutch & have no idea what\nthese names \"mean\"." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Here I disagree. Not only are the dorpians seafarers, which is quite dutch,\ntheir names are not weird at all. Even Dorp (english thorpe) is the word\nfor\n'town'. Of course they are not dutch, but they do look dutch-inspired. As\nto\nthe language, they speak the 'common tongue' funny, with what can be\nconsidered a dutch syntax.\n\nNot that this is in any way inconsistent with the hypothesis that the\ncultures in the Whorl were fashioned from bits and scraps of urthly\noriginals rather than from the full orginals themselves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As you say, it's not really very important whether or not the Dorpians\nactually speak Dutch or know what their names mean. Obviously some of the\nWhorl cultures know something about \"their\" languages - the Trivigauntes and\napparently the GrandeCittans, for example.\n\nOn the hypothesis that the Whorl team constructed these cultures from\nwhatever info they could find in the old records, I guess there would be a\nspectrum. To me, the Dorpians look like they are at one end of that\nspectrum, as far as a recovered language goes. Little example: Vadsig -\nneither she nor anybody else seem bothered that her name means \"Slothful\".\n\nAs to why the Whorl team went to all this trouble: possibly just whimisical\nmegalomania. But maybe also this: Typhon's intention with the Whorl project\nis to do somethling like recreate the evolution of the First Empire. To do\nthis he plans to recreate something like the world of \"our\" time, and re-run\na struggle between nations and cultures to dominate it, with whatever\nculture emerges from that as victor honed in conflict and ready to conquer\nthe stars - and with him as their immortal god.\n\nOn the Whorl, that struggle has to be kept at a low level, to avoid any\nvictor being powerful enough to challenge Mainframe. On the Whorl, with\nMainframe safe in orbit, it can start in earnest.\n\nThe purpose of the Whorl then is to get a collection of cultures to a new\nplanet and make sure that they remain foreign and little understood to each\nother until they get there. On arrival, they will all lack various\nnecessities and will start to fight each other for resources. Wars will\nescalate and continue over a long period until some culture dominates.\n\nAnyway, I think that's plausible. Typhon is the kind of guy who would\nbelieve that war is the best mother of progress." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C8FFC8E.3000006@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-14T22:51:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 12)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Blanko: white (town)\nMorello: a sour cherry or, possibly \"bitter\" (general)\nTorda: petite one (servant)\n\nWe've gotten so used to names being carefully selected. It's strange \nhave characters named without any discernible purpose." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Again just fwiw, looking at the \"Grandecitta culture\" names, from IGJ:\nAdatta: Suitable\nAffito: Properties (Inclito's coachman)\nBello: Handsome (colonel)\nBlanko: ??? (town)\nBricco: Jug (child in Fava's story)\nBruna: Brown (mule)\nCantoro: Singer? (merchant)\nCasco: Helmet (Salica's story)\nCugino: Cousin (woodcutter)\nCuoio: Leather (Hide's name in Blanko)\nDecina: Ten (servant)\nDentro: Inside (Salica's story)\nEco: Echo (messenger)\nFava: Broad bean\nGagliardo: Strong, red blooded (astronomer)\nGioioso: Joyful (Salica's story)\nIncanto: Enchantment (Inclito's brother)\nInclito: Illustrious (de facto leader of Blanko)\nLegaro: Tie (ambassador)\nMano: Hand (trooper)\nMorello: ? (general)\nNovella Citta: New city\nOlmo: Elm (town)\nOnorifica: Honorific (servant)\nPerito: Expert, surveyor (hired hand)\nRigoglio: Luxuriance (duko)\nRimando: Return, cross-reference (messenger)\nRimo: Removal (trooper)\nSalica: Willow? (Inclito's mother)\nSborso: Disbursement (hired hand)\nSchiamazza: Cackles (servant)\nSfido: Challenge (officer)\nSoldo: Money, penny (town)\nSolenno: Solemn (Salica's story)\nTerzo: Third (officer)\nTorda: ???? (servant)\nTurco: Turk? (Salica's story)\nUgolo: Uvula (Salica's story)\nUrbanita: city sweller? (person in Blanko)\nValico: Pass (trooper)\nVivo: Living person (colonel)\nVolanta: Wheel (person in Blanko)\nVolto: Face (trooper)\nZitta: Silent (Inclito's dead wife)\nI don't really know what to make of that as a group: some of the names \nare fine as names, some of them make little sense. Anyway, think have \nto conclude that these people do know at least some Italian: eg Hide \nbeing advised to change his name to \"Cuoio\", if nothing else. \n(\"Novella Citta\" also, of course, but I could argue against that one \nas meaning too much by itself...)\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }