The face of Pas

On 9/11/2010 12:33 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: Typhon's maniacal obsession with his own face is a given, well established in the Urth Cycle. The head on the left side of Piaton's body had yellow hair, the head on the right side had black hair (SWORD, chap. XXIV). The head on the left was Typhon's (URTH, chap. XXXIX, 274). Severian at first thought Piaton "a species of idiot" (SWORD, XXV) because he rolled his eyes and his lips moved but he was unable to speak. Piaton was unable to speak because "He can't get his breath, poor fellow," as Typhon put it (ibid, XXVI). Silk had yellow hair, as is mentioned many times in LS. Shortly after Mint and Remora and some others climbed out of the tunnels, Remora shot Sand and Pas made a theophany in the Sacred Window in the Prolocutor's Palace. This is what Mint saw: ------------------ She blinked and stared, then blinked again. Not one face but two crowded the Window, one gaping and gasping, the other radiant with power and majesty, just--and more than just--pitiless and nurturing. "My faithful people," intoned Twice-headed Pas, "receive the blessing of your god." (EXODUS, 204) ------------------ The "gaping and gasping" face was clearly Piaton's. Mint (and Remora) damn well knew what Silk's face looked like. Had she recognized the other face in the Window as Silk's, she would have been shocked silly and the course of the story would have changed radically. Ergo, the other face was not Silk's. Nature versus nurture issues aside, on the nature end a clone should look almost identical to the original.

Or perhaps the commonality of clones of various Typhonian family members prevents Silk's resemblance to Pas from being particularly remarkable, because lots of people on the Whorl have a similar degree of resemblance as a young adult clone would have to his octagenerian original.

Dave Tallman wrote: Do we know for sure that the spirits he saw were manifested by the Mainframe? One of them says, "You must go back, Silk. He sends us to tell you." If "He" is the Outsider, there are no restrictions on who could be manifested based on where they resided or died.

They could be Typhon's parent's, if Silk is a clone. Or they could be Typhon and Mamelta, if he's a biological son.

(Hopefully not Typhon and Kypris, because that would be a bit incestuous -- Kypris' promise of "We'd be together then" doesn't sound entirely platonic. Indeed, in RttW, Silkhorn doubts that Silversilk in Pig would have bothered looking for the ghost of Hyacinth as long as he had Kypris instead.)

I don't find the argument of Mint's non-reaction totally convincing. The commanding expression, the enhancement of godly images in a theophany, and the many representations of Pas in art and sculpture could have accustomed Mint to a face like Silk's without any confusion.

The image Kypris shows Silk of what it would be like to be an aspect of Pas is more convincing, as long as it wasn't Piaton's head that was replaced. But I'm tempted to think it was Piaton's.

The Outsider has taken over Pas. He wouldn't yield the driver's seat to Silk.

Roy C. Lackey wrote- Typhon's maniacal obsession with his own face is a given, well established in the Urth Cycle.[snip]Nature versus nurture issues aside, on the nature end a clone should look almost identical to the original.

Roy (to Jeff Wilson) - There are no references to clones in LS or SS, but there are the khaibits of NS who do closely resemble their originals. Severian gives no indication that the Typhon face/head he twice saw was that of an old man, which would have been in stark contrast to the gladiator body it was attached to. Silk had yellow hair, as is mentioned many times in LS.

When Silk was buried in that tunnel collapse and made his brief sojourn to Mainframe heaven, he saw his biological parents. The male bio parent had blue eyes, like Silk. A clone necessarily comes from the same genetic lineage as the original. In other words, the bio parents of the clone are the same as the bio parents of the original. Had Silk been a clone of Typhon, the bio parents he saw in Mainframe would have been Typhon's parents.

Typhon supposedly wasn't native to Urth and claimed not to have been born at all in the usual sense. There is no logical reason for Typhon's parents to have been on the_Whorl_ or in Mainframe at all.

Dave Tallman - The Outsider has taken over Pas. He wouldn't yield the driver's seat to Silk. Roy - I agree that the Outsider wanted the Plan of Pas to be executed. But I don't think he was pulling Pas' strings.

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) The face of Pas To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 1:31 PM Roy C. Lackey wrote- Typhon's maniacal obsession with his own face is a given, well established in the Urth Cycle......

Roy C. Lackey wrote: Could be. But I think it a little odd that no one in seven books ever suggests that Silk, even at the age of forty-three, looks anything like the Pas of art or theophany, and Mint saw him at that age. In the case of Severian, an innkeeper pointed out to him how much he looked like an older Ouen. We ought to look at resemblances people really notice in the books and see what explanations are possible.

But the idea that Typhon was egotistically--let alone "manically"--obsessed with his face is simply not true based on his discussion with Severian in Sword of the Lictor. Keeping his original head, in the original case, was a practical issue:

"My physicians, of whom I naturally had the best of many worlds, told me it might be possible for me to take a new body, their first thought being to enclose my brain in the skull previously occupied by another. You see the flaw in that?"[snip] The face would be lost, and it is the face that men are accustomed to obey!" So Typhon believed that if he had a new face, his subjects would treat him as an heir rather than the rule to whom they had already accespted. But in dealing with memory-wiped Cargo this was not important at all.** Pas's appearance was limited only by Typhon's sense of humor. The whole thing was intended as a joke. A parody. Otherwise, why give Piaton any role at all. **That the waking Cargo was memory-wiped in the same fashion as as the Sleepers were seems the obvious implication.

There is simply no way people would come to believe in the Whorl Gods and forget their true natures in the few centuries since the Whorl left Urth. In fact, it is hard for me to see how any real observant religion could have ever been more than something for kooky cults.

Lemur: "The monarch had wanted a son to succeed him. Scylla was as strong-willed as the monarch himself, but female. It is a law of nature, as concerns our race, that females are subject to males. Her father allowed her to found our city, however, and many others. She founded your Chapter as well, a parody of the state religion of her own whorl. She was hardly more than a child, you understand, and the rest younger even than she."

Roy C. Lackey: For the religion of Viron to be a parody of the state religion on Urth, the state religion on Urth must have been polytheistic.

From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> I also think it was probably Piaton's head she had replaced with Silk's. Even so, since Kypris was trying to connect Silk with Pas, if she showed him their two heads and he recognized only one of them as his own, it is easier for me to believe that was because the Pas head didn't really look like Silk. Typhon's obsession with his own face suggests that his Pas image would have been the same as it had been when scanned, as the fact that Piaton's idiot head remained part of the digitized image of Pas reinforces.

Roy - Could be. But I think it a little odd that no one in seven books ever suggests that Silk, even at the age of forty-three, looks anything like the Pas of art or theophany, and Mint saw him at that age. In the case of Severian, an innkeeper pointed out to him how much he looked like an older Ouen.

D. Tallman- We ought to look at resemblances people really notice in the books and see what explanations are possible. 1) Silk mistakes his astral-travelling older self for Patera Pike. This was in bad light and just a glimpse of the lower part of his face.

2) Severian mistakes the astral-travelling Silk for Master Malrubius. This is more troubling because Sev got a longer look and he has a near-photographic memory.

The Severian that Silk meets is probably an early iteration, maybe even Sev1. He keeps his dog longer, and he has a relationship with Merryn and probably not with Thecla. It seems like he draws inspiration from the goodness of Silk, and maybe that "ghost" incident drove him out of the Guild and to the north to become Autarch for the first time. The aquastor who helps him in later iterations is probably drawn more from Silk than from the old Malrubius.

Me - But the idea that Typhon was egotistically--let alone "manically"--obsessed with his face is simply not true based on his discussion with Severian in Sword of the Lictor. Keeping his original head, in the original case, was a practical issue:

Roy = Having one's head cut off to preserve the face is very radical, particularly if there were other options available, such as clones and chem bodies that could be made to look human, as was the demonstrated case with Potto and Lemur. One for Siyuf was whipped out in about two-day's time.

Me - **That the waking Cargo was memory-wiped in the same fashion as as the Sleepers were seems the obvious implication.

Roy - Neither the waking Cargo nor the Sleepers were memory-wiped, but in the case of the Sleepers, at least, their brains were tinkered with.

Roy - What did Typhon's wife and young children have to do with anything? Why were the memories of Typhon's family so deeply entrenched in the minds of the people put aboard the Whorl that not even a surgeon's knife could eliminate them? For an answer, look to what Lemur next had to say: "The monarch had wanted a son to succeed him. Scylla was as strong-willed as the monarch himself, but female. It is a law of nature, as concerns our race, that females are subject to males. Her father allowed her to found our city, however, and many others. She founded your Chapter as well, a parody of the state religion of her own whorl. She was hardly more than a child, you understand, and the rest younger even than she." (ibid) There is your "parody". Typhon and his family were entrenched in the minds of the people of Urth because they had been forced upon the people of Urth, possibly in the form of the state religion.

Whether or not worship of Typhon and his family was the state religion on Urth, the fact remains that his family was entrenched in the minds of people put aboard the Whorl, and the only solution found to what was apparently some sort of problem associated with that fact was to rename them. Renamed, they became gods in Mainframe. For the religion of Viron to be a parody of the state religion on Urth, the state religion on Urth must have been polytheistic, otherwise the solution would have generated more problems than the solution was intended to remedy.

Gerry Quinn--It seems probable to me that Pas has failed to fully ressurect, and Silk is needed to replace some significant part of him.

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 12:27 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote: Me - But the idea that Typhon was egotistically--let alone

"manically"--obsessed with his face is simply not true based on his discussion with Severian in Sword of the Lictor. Keeping his original head, in the original case, was a practical issue:

Roy = Having one's head cut off to preserve the face is very radical, particularly if there were other options available, such as clones and chem bodies that could be made to look human, as was the demonstrated case with Potto and Lemur. One for Siyuf was whipped out in about two-day's time.

There are downsides to chem bodies as the Ayuntamiento discovered. Being downloaded into a chem body might reasonably give Typhon no more actual legal status than uploading his personality into a computer. There is no evidence of fast-grown clones being an available option in any of the novels. The point remains that Typhon said he used the method he did for practical reasons. Not egotistical ones. Me - **That the waking Cargo was memory-wiped in the same fashion as as the

Sleepers were seems the obvious implication.

Roy - Neither the waking Cargo nor the Sleepers were memory-wiped, but in the case of the Sleepers, at least, their brains were tinkered with.

Yes, The memories of the waking cargo were strategically wiped and added to. That's what I was getting at -- as described in quotes you offered. They didn't forget that they had left Urth. They probably knew initially what the purpose of their cards was (although the significance of their value might have unintentionally been softened). But they did not remember Typhon as normal human dictator. The augurs and sybils and the congregants thought of their religion as one practiced throughout their lives. The idea of Typhon and his family could not be expunged. It is unlikely that any people on Urth thought of him as a two-headed being. He could not have been in that form long before he died. And if there had been a religion centered around Typhon --one that could not be expunged from the memory of the Cargo-- then it would not have dissipated with his death as easily as his government did (dividing allegiance between the competing alien powers). Roy - What did Typhon's wife and young children have to do with anything?

Why were the memories of Typhon's family so deeply entrenched in the minds of the people put aboard the Whorl that not even a surgeon's knife could eliminate them? For an answer, look to what Lemur next had to say: "The monarch had wanted a son to succeed him. Scylla was as strong-willed as the monarch himself, but female. It is a law of nature, as concerns our race, that females are subject to males. Her father allowed her to found our city, however, and many others. She founded your Chapter as well, a parody of the state religion of her own whorl. She was hardly more than a child, you understand, and the rest younger even than she." (ibid) There is your "parody". Typhon and his family were entrenched in the minds of the people of Urth because they had been forced upon the people of Urth, possibly in the form of the state religion.

No. I do not see how this can be at all. The text you are providing does not map to your conclusion. Not at all. The child Cilinia could not have designed all the traditions of the Chapter. No way. Typhon's committees did that on an ad hoc basis-- the same way they put together the Writings. When Lemur say she "founded" the Chapter and Viron and other cities, he is talking about a titular role--with little more input than a suggestion here and there. That's why Lemur stipulates that she was little more than a child. The state religion on Urth was real one- an established one analogous to the Catholic Church...thus the similarities. Your explanation of the parody leaves little room for parody. Nor does it explain how religions of other cultures are also parodies of known world religions. For example, the parody of Islam among the Trivigaunte does not require a male god for ultimate devotion--everything is reversed from Islamic culture regarding male-female relations. The reason Typhon and family are so ingrained in the minds of the Urthlings is obvious from looking at the personality cults established by lesser tyrants like Stalin and Saddam, and the obsession people have with their royal families (ala the U.K.) Whether or not worship of Typhon and his family was the state religion on Urth, the fact remains that his family was entrenched in the minds of people put aboard the Whorl, and the only solution found to what was apparently some sort of problem associated with that fact was to rename them.

Renamed, they became gods in Mainframe. For the religion of Viron to be a parody of the state religion on Urth, the state religion on Urth must have been polytheistic, otherwise the solution would have generated more problems than the solution was intended to remedy.

Urth's state religion was not centered around the worship of Typhon and his family. There's no evidence of a surviving cult of worship around Typhon in Severian's day. There is no hint that the people the Conciliator encountered viewed him that way. I don't think Wolfe the author was so constrained that the state religion the Chapter parodied had to be polytheistic. Typhon only needed to have the personalities of his family to be redrawn in caricature. The Typhonic family was an issue, but the various religions (as I said, those of other cities were vastly different) he didn't care about at all. He played with them freely. If I were to carry what you are arguing to its logical end, then Typhon was undermining his plan by having Echidna with snake hair and Scylla with tentacles. And little Hierax as the god of death? Really? ᚹ _______________________________________________

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Jack Smith <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com> wrote: "I don't think Wolfe the author was so constrained that the state religion the Chapter parodied had to be polytheistic. " Yes. ?I've always taken the parody (of the state religion and of Catholicism) to consist of such things as a celibate priesthood, celibate nuns who teach children, confession, absolution, last rites, and the voided cross. — The original religion does not have to have been polytheistic.

Dave Tallman wrote: We ought to look at resemblances people really notice in the books and see what explanations are possible. 1) Silk mistakes his astral-travelling older self for Patera Pike.

This was in bad light and just a glimpse of the lower part of his face. 2) Severian mistakes the astral-travelling Silk for Master Malrubius. This is more troubling because Sev got a longer look and he has a near-photographic memory.

But the idea that Typhon was egotistically--let alone "manically"--obsessed with his face is simply not true based on his discussion with Severian in Sword of the Lictor. Keeping his original head, in the original case, was a practical issue:

Jack Smith - I've always taken the parody (of the state religion and of Catholicism) to consist of such things as a celibate priesthood, celibate nuns who teach children, confession, absolution, last rites, and the voided cross. The original religion does not have to have been polytheistic.

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes- However - since you have (correctly in my opinion) opened up the can-O-worms of parodied Catholicism - it might be argued that a polytheistic religion, where all the gods are members of the same family, could stand as a parody of the relations of the Holy Trinity in Catholicsm.

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 10:22 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote: While there might have been some of that in there, mostly I think Wolfe found it most appealing to create a demonic version Greek mythology as well as tossing in some Etruscan rituals and forms and shunting the whole thing onto a gnostic foundation.

On 9/14/2010 12:29 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 10:22 AM, James Wynn<crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

While there might have been some of that in there, mostly I think Wolfe found it most appealing to create a demonic version Greek mythology as well as tossing in some Etruscan rituals and forms and shunting the whole thing onto a gnostic foundation.

I agree about Greek, and don't know much about Etruscan stuff, but take it from a Catholic: the rituals and forms of the Chapter are dead on parodies of Catholic forms and rituals

On 9/14/2010 11:57 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: Dave Tallman wrote: > We ought to look at resemblances people really notice in the books and see what explanations are possible.

1) Silk mistakes his astral-travelling older self for Patera Pike.

I don't accept the premise. Wolfe, in that List questionnaire, said that Pike on the stairs of the manse was a ghost. I see no reason to doubt him.

James Wynn wrote: There are downsides to chem bodies as the Ayuntamiento discovered. Being downloaded into a chem body might reasonably give Typhon no more actual legal status than uploading his personality into a computer.

There is no evidence of fast-grown clones being an available option in any of the novels.

The point remains that Typhon said he used the method he did for practical reasons. Not egotistical ones.

The idea of Typhon and his family could not be expunged. It is unlikely that any people on Urth thought of him as a two-headed being. He could not have been in that form long before he died.

The child Cilinia could not have designed all the traditions of the Chapter. No way. Typhon's committees did that on an ad hoc basis-- the same way they put together the Writings. When Lemur say she "founded" the Chapter and Viron and other cities, he is talking about a titular role--with little more input than a suggestion here and there. That's why Lemur stipulates that she was little more than a child.

Tim O'Donnell: I have long suspected (with little evidence to be fair) that Typhon needed to keep his head/face/brain in order to be able to exercise his magic powers. These powers might survive cloning but perhaps his powers would not survive uploading into a chem or into mainframe. This would be a pretty practical reason to keep his head with the story of his face a cover so as not to hint at the real source of his power.

James Wynn- There are downsides to chem bodies as the Ayuntamiento discovered. Being downloaded into a chem body might reasonably give Typhon no more actual legal status than uploading his personality into a computer.

Roy- Legal status!? What would an egotistical tyrant care about legal status? Was he going to be voted out of office or something?

JW- There is no evidence of fast-grown clones being an available option in any of the novels.

Roy- Thecla was just a few years older than Severian, yet her fully-grown khaibit was working in a whore house. Lest anyone misunderstand, I do not subscribe to clone theories in LS/SS. Not at all. I'm just pointing out a fact in NS.

JW - The point remains that Typhon said he used the method he did for practical reasons. Not egotistical ones.

Roy - That is your view. It is not mine.

The child Cilinia could not have designed all the traditions of the Chapter. No way. Typhon's committees did that on an ad hoc basis-- the same way they put together the Writings. When Lemur say she "founded" the Chapter and Viron and other cities, he is talking about a titular role--with little more input than a suggestion here and there. That's why Lemur stipulates that she was little more than a child.

Regardless of who designed the traditions of Viron, the fact remains that the city, complete with its scores of manteions, was already built when the first people came aboard -- Marble was there at that time and said so; she was working as a maid at the Sun Street manteion. The Sacred Windows were up and running with Viron's Chapter in charge of daily operations in the manteions. And like it or not, the city's Charter was said to have been written by Scylla: "The Charter, eh? Written in-ah-deity by Scylla and corrected by Pas." (LAKE, chap. 7, 188) Thus, her role in the founding of Viron and its institutions was not just titular.That she was a girl of about thirteen at the time she was scanned is not my problem to explain; that's the way Wolfe wrote it.

On 9/14/2010 1:36 PM, James Wynn wrote: On 9/14/2010 12:29 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:

On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 10:22 AM, James Wynn<crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

While there might have been some of that in there, mostly I think Wolfe found it most appealing to create a demonic version Greek mythology as well as tossing in some Etruscan rituals and forms and shunting the whole thing onto a gnostic foundation.

I agree about Greek, and don't know much about Etruscan stuff, but take it from a Catholic: the rituals and forms of the Chapter are dead on parodies of Catholic forms and rituals

I agree. The shriving. The "sign of addition". It all says "Roman Catholic!" in all-caps. But "augur" and the practice of "augury" is from the Etruscan religions. "Sybil" is a Latin word, derived from the Greek. So it harkens back to pre-Christian Italy as well. Also the form of temples having holes in their ceilings. ᚹ _______________________________________________

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: I agree about Greek, and don't know much about Etruscan stuff, but take it from a Catholic: the rituals and forms of the Chapter are dead on parodies of Catholic forms and rituals.

James Wynn- There are downsides to chem bodies as the Ayuntamiento discovered.

downloaded into a chem body might reasonably give Typhon no more actual legal status than uploading his personality into a computer.

Roy- Legal status!? What would an egotistical tyrant care about legal status?

he going to be voted out of office or something?

A tyrant must induce people to obey him. Would anyone obey a robot?

The child Cilinia could not have designed all the traditions of the Chapter. No way. Typhon's committees did that on an ad hoc basis-- the same way they put together the Writings. When Lemur say she "founded" the Chapter and Viron and other cities, he is talking about a titular role--with little more input than a suggestion here and there. That's why Lemur stipulates that she was little more than a child.

Regardless of who designed the traditions of Viron, the fact remains that the city, complete with its scores of manteions, was already built when the first people came aboard -- Marble was there at that time and said so;

was working as a maid at the Sun Street manteion. The Sacred Windows were up and running with Viron's Chapter in charge of daily operations in the manteions. And like it or not, the city's Charter was said to have been written by Scylla: "The Charter, eh? Written in-ah-deity by Scylla and corrected by Pas." (LAKE, chap. 7, 188) Thus, her role in the founding of Viron and its institutions was not just titular.That she was a girl of about thirteen at the time she was scanned is not my problem to explain;

the way Wolfe wrote it.

You need to read that text a little more carefully, Roy. What Remora says is: "The Charter, eh? Written in-ah-deity by Scylla and corrected by Pas. So it-um-asserts."

Even Remora, retains skepticism regarding what the Charter says regarding its own history. But even then, what Remora and Lemur think about the founding of the Whorl should be taken with the same degree of skepticism: "So he asserts". And that's the way Wolfe wrote it.

From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" <danldo at gmail.com> I agree about Greek, and don't know much about Etruscan stuff, but take it from a Catholic: the rituals and forms of the Chapter are dead on parodies of Catholic forms and rituals.

Me - A tyrant must induce people to obey him. Would anyone obey a robot?

Roy - Obviously so. People obeyed Potto and Lemur and the fake Siyuf. People didn't know they were robots.

Me- Even Remora, retains skepticism regarding what the Charter says regarding its own history. But even then, what Remora and Lemur think about the founding of the Whorl should be taken with the same degree of skepticism: "So he asserts". And that's the way Wolfe wrote it.

Roy- Yes he did. And if you don't like it that Hoof described the astral Cilinia as looking like "a girl old enough to take care of other sprats but not old enough to get married" (RTTW, 347), or that Cilinia herself, while looking at her remains on Urth, said "I died young. It can't have been long after I was scanned for the Whorl." (392), you can claim that it was only Hoof who made the assertions and it doesn't mean what it seems to mean if it doesn't suit your notion of the founding of Viron or its Chapter or whatever point you really wanted to make.

Roy- Look at your above assertions about what Cilinia could or could not have had to do with the founding of the Chapter, and that it was done by "Typhon's committees". Where did you get that?

Roy- I stated what the text had to say about it, along with corroborative indications that the infrastructure for the Chapter was in place from the get-go. Which position merits more skepticism?

It is not so easy to see it in an Islam-based city like Trivigaunte. Lemur said that Viron's religion was a parody of the state religion on Urth, but that says nothing about the other couple-hundred cities on the Whorl. But what he said about Typhon and his family being deeply entrenched in the minds of people put aboard the ship does apply to all the other cities. Though the religion in Trivigaunte in Silk's day may have degenerated so far as to be all but beyond recognition, it cannot have been that way on Day One. What to do with 9+ gods in such a monotheistic religion? Did all the other gods just agree to step aside and let Sphigx have her way?

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 2:17 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote: ?At the end of RttW Oreb says "Good Fishing". This statement as odd on a number of levels, of course, but one way that it did is that it felt like a FAIL regarding Oreb's characteristic powers of speech. Only two words, fine, but THREE syllables. But ?I figured, well, it's Wolfe's story. However, while rereading interviews yesterday I came across this statement by Wolfe: http://www.sfsite.com/03b/gw124.htm Wolfe: "Of course all of us speak differently to different audiences. Auk talks like I do when I'm talking to the dogs. Almost no one seems to notice how Oreb talks, but Oreb can manage only two syllables: 'Good bird! Watch out! Bad boy. Iron girl. Good Silk!' " I don't know what it signifies, but based on what Wolfe says, it ought to mean something.

On 9/15/2010 1:48 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote: Doesn't that quote mean that nothing odd is going on (beyond the obvious Gospel allusion or whatever)? "Iron girl" is 3 syllables by my count, as is "good fishing".

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com> wrote: "Iron girl" is 3 syllables by my count, as is "good fishing".

James Wynn quoted and wrote: It is not so easy to see it in an Islam-based city like Trivigaunte. Lemur said that Viron's religion was a parody of the state religion on Urth, but that says nothing about the other couple-hundred cities on the Whorl. But what he said about Typhon and his family being deeply entrenched in the minds of people put aboard the ship does apply to all the other cities. Though the religion in Trivigaunte in Silk's day may have degenerated so far as to be all but beyond recognition, it cannot have been that way on Day One. What to do with 9+ gods in such a monotheistic religion? Did all the other gods just agree to step aside and let Sphigx have her way?

The concept of monotheism as a central doctrinal signifier was foundational to Islam from the beginning. "There is no god by God" is the first doctrinal tenant of a Muslim. As for how such a practice could arise, there are at least two possibilities. 1) The memory monotheism was so ingrained in the minds of original the Islamic citizens of Trivigaunte that they naturally returned to that belief immediately. 2) The scientists recognized in advance that monotheism was so deeply ingrained as designed the city's religion around it. Either way, it seems unlikely that Lemur's knowledge was comprehensive regarding the cultural/political situation on Urth and the requirements of the Whorl's design.

As for why the other gods did not compete for worshipers there: Apparently, there are ways to summon and avoid summoning gods. Quetzal managed to completely avoid having any gods appear in Viron after the death of Pas and Tussah. I guess forbidding child sacrifice was one way, but I imagine there could be others. Presumably, the Trivigaunte were only interested in attracting the interest of Sphigx. They might well have been quite adept at it.

James Wynn quoted and wrote: Roy- Look at your above assertions about what Cilinia could or could not have had to do with the founding of the Chapter, and that it was done by "Typhon's committees". Where did you get that?

From an interview I recalled with Wolfe where he discussed how the Writings were put together. But, mainly, Typhon didn't strike me as a big reader.

Roy- I stated what the text had to say about it, along with corroborative indications that the infrastructure for the Chapter was in place from the get-go. Which position merits more skepticism?

Correction: You stated what Remora said the Charter said about it. You can't just say "the text says". Context is key.

On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 2:17 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote: At the end of RttW Oreb says "Good Fishing". This statement as odd on a number of levels, of course, but one way that it did is that it felt like a FAIL regarding Oreb's characteristic powers of speech. Only two words, fine, but THREE syllables. But I figured, well, it's Wolfe's story. However, while rereading interviews yesterday I came across this statement by Wolfe: http://www.sfsite.com/03b/gw124.htm Wolfe: "Of course all of us speak differently to different audiences. Auk talks like I do when I'm talking to the dogs. Almost no one seems to notice how Oreb talks, but Oreb can manage only two syllables: 'Good bird! Watch out! Bad boy. Iron girl. Good Silk!' " I don't know what it signifies, but based on what Wolfe says, it ought to mean something. ᚹ _______________________________________________

Roy - Both of those possibilities ignore my point. I'll say it again. If memories of Typhon and his family were too deeply entrenched in the minds of people put aboard the Whorl to be eliminated, how could/would they have initially manifested themselves in a monotheistic religion like Islam? Either the memories of the Nine were there on Day One or they weren't.

Me - As for why the other gods did not compete for worshipers there: Apparently, there are ways to summon and avoid summoning gods. Quetzal managed to completely avoid having any gods appear in Viron after the death of Pas and Tussah. I guess forbidding child sacrifice was one way, but I imagine there could be others. Presumably, the Trivigaunte were only interested in attracting the interest of Sphigx. They might well have been quite adept at it.

Roy - Quetzal could not control the gods. No sacrifice of any kind was required for the manifestation of a god, as Kypris coming to the glass at Orchid's and to the glass on the airship proves.

Yes it is, James. You seem to be confusing Chapter and Charter. Look back at what I wrote. You broke up my paragraph, which is perfectly okay, but the antecedent for the pronoun "it" in the second half of the paragraph is in the first half of the paragraph, i.e., the founding of the Chapter. The Remora quote had to do with the Charter, but the earlier quote about the founding of the Chapter was from Lemur.

On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:17:29 -0500, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote: At the end of RttW Oreb says "Good Fishing". This statement as odd on a number of levels, of course, but one way that

it did is that it felt like a FAIL regarding Oreb's characteristic powers of speech. Only two words, fine, but THREE syllables. But I figured, well, it's Wolfe's story. However, while rereading interviews yesterday I came across this statement by Wolfe: http://www.sfsite.com/03b/gw124.htm Wolfe: "Of course all of us speak differently to different audiences. Auk talks like I do when I'm talking to the dogs. Almost no one seems to

notice how Oreb talks, but Oreb can manage only two syllables: 'Good bird! Watch out! Bad boy. Iron girl. Good Silk!' " I don't know what it signifies, but based on what Wolfe says, it ought to mean something.

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 4:44 AM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: If memories of Typhon and his family were too deeply entrenched in the minds of people put aboard the Whorl to be eliminated, how could/would they have initially manifested themselves in a monotheistic religion like Islam? Either the memories of the Nine were there on Day One or they weren't.

Dave Tallman wrote: About the apparition of "Patera Pike" -- 1) Pike was old when he died. RttW p. 40 says he was about eighty. 2) The apparition is called "the old auger," which happens to fit the future Silk perfectly. 3) Wolfe in the Q+A session didn't ever say it was a real ghost. He said it wasn't machine generated and it wasn't Quetzal in disguise. That's all. If he was ever more definite in another interview I'd like to see the citation. Even if he was it could still fir Silk/Rajan.

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> At the end of RttW Oreb says "Good Fishing".

Dave Tallman - 3) Wolfe in the Q+A session didn't ever say it was a real ghost. He said it wasn't machine generated and it wasn't Quetzal in disguise. That's all. If he was ever more definite in another interview I'd like to see the citation. Even if he was it could still fir Silk/Rajan.

Roy - It has long been my belief that Wolfe said Pike in the manse was a ghost, and I know I'm not the only one with that impression. If he didn't state so expressly elsewhere, this is the best I can do to reconstruct the belief. At the time of the Q&A, the SS concept of astral travel was unknown to us. Given the way the first Pike question was phrased, when Wolfe's answer eliminated an aquastor and the answer to the second Pike question eliminated Quetzal, a ghost was what was left. Sorry, but that's the best I can come up with.

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 10:29 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote: :

Dave Tallman -

3) Wolfe in the Q+A session didn't ever say it was a real ghost. He said it wasn't machine generated and it wasn't Quetzal in disguise. That's all. If he was ever more definite in another interview I'd like to see the citation. Even if he was it could still fir Silk/Rajan.

Roy - It has long been my belief that Wolfe said Pike in the manse was a ghost, and I know I'm not the only one with that impression. If he didn't state so expressly elsewhere, this is the best I can do to reconstruct the belief. At the time of the Q&A, the SS concept of astral travel was unknown to us. Given the way the first Pike question was phrased, when Wolfe's answer eliminated an aquastor and the answer to the second Pike question eliminated Quetzal, a ghost was what was left. Sorry, but that's the best I can come up with.

I do remember -or imagine I remember- an interview in which someone tried to pin Wolfe down about Pike's ghost. As I remember it, they asked was Pike's ghost a real ghost or what and Wolfe replied "It was a real ghost." But I cannot find that interview by googling. Given that, perhaps we should accept, for the sake of argument, it that it he never said it. If we accept that Wolfe only said "It was not machine-made" it seriously under-cuts the assessment that it was a Gothic ghost, IMO. Because that is a very occult response. But even if he DID say it, it is still obvious to me that "real" or not, it was not a Gothic ghost. Only Terry Pratchet or Robert Asprin would write a scene that way with an old-fashioned ghost. ᚹ _______________________________________________

"The Wolfean Oracle Speaks" An interview by Michael Andre-Driussi: 4. Was what Silk saw in the manteion Pike's ghost, or an aquastor, or what? -- It was seen in the manse, not the manteion; it wasn't machine made. [DRL: See question 27.] 27. Is Pike's ghost really Quetzal? -- No. [DRL: Which blandly leaves the possibility that the `ghost' might still be another of the alien inhumi.... See question 4; also, below.] I don't have the date of this interview or where it was conducted. -- Best wishes, Jack

Andrew wrote: As to how the Whorl-dwellers were "converted", it's worth recalling Auk's meeting with Tartaros in the tunnels (Calde Ch.6). It happens at the "oldest altar", of which Tartaros says: "When the first people came here, Auk, they were shown how we desired to be worshipped. Soon, they were made to forget. They did, but because they had seen what they had seeen, a part of them remembered, and when they found our altars on the inner surface, they sacrificed as we had taught them. First of all, here."

On 9/16/2010 2:30 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: Andrew wrote:

"When the first people came here, Auk, they were shown how we desired to be worshipped. Soon, they were made to forget. They did, but because they had seen what they had seeen, a part of them remebered, and when they found our altars on the inner surface, they sacrificed as we had taught them. First of all, here."

Roy- That quote doesn't make sense. I wonder if it's tied to what Lemur said about entrenched memories of Typhon and his family being too deep to eliminate, so the Nine were renamed. Let's parse the Tartaros quote. At first glance, the first sentence seems straightforward enough, but then you have to wonder what the first people were doing down in the tunnels. The area with the altar and a Window was wider than the tunnels that led to it, but it's unclear just how large the area was. The chamber was not too far from the Pit. So was it some sort of orientation center for new arrivals who had just been brought up to the ship in landers?

Roy - Even if that is so, why were they then made to forget what they had been taught? Is this where Lemur's comments come in? Maybe I better give that quote again: "The surgeons found, however, that their patients' memories of their ruler, his family, and some of his officials were too deeply entrenched to be eliminated altogether. To obscure the record, they renamed them. Their ruler, the man who called himself the monarch, became Pas, the shrew he had married Echidna, and so on." Now to the third sentence of the Tartaros quote. After being made to forget how to worship properly, complete with sacrifices, when the first people saw the altars set up in the cities that had been built for them, they went back to worshipping as they had been taught, complete with sacrifices. What had changed?

Roy- I really have no vested interest one way or the other in the notion that Typhon and his family had been worshipped on Urth, so if anyone has a better explanation for Tartaros' statement, I'd like to see it. And that is not a challenge. BTW, while it is true that there is no evidence in the Urth Cycle that Typhon and his family had been worshipped back on Urth, neither is there any evidence that Catholicism or some approximation thereof had been practiced in Typhon's time.

On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 5:00 AM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: Andrew wrote:

As to how the Whorl-dwellers were "converted", it's worth recalling Auk's meeting with Tartaros in the tunnels (Calde Ch.6). It happens at the "oldest altar", of which Tartaros says: "When the first people came here, Auk, they were shown how we desired to be worshipped. Soon, they were made to forget. They did, but because they had seen what they had seeen, a part of them remembered, and when they found our altars on the inner surface, they sacrificed as we had taught them. First of all, here."

That quote doesn't make sense. I wonder if it's tied to what Lemur said about entrenched memories of Typhon and his family being too deep to eliminate, so the Nine were renamed. Let's parse the Tartaros quote. At first glance, the first sentence seems straightforward enough, but then you have to wonder what the first people were doing down in the tunnels. The area with the altar and a Window was wider than the tunnels that led to it, but it's unclear just how large the area was. The chamber was not too far from the Pit. So was it some sort of orientation center for new arrivals who had just been brought up to the ship in landers?

Even if that is so, why were they then made to forget what they had been taught?

Is this where Lemur's comments come in? Maybe I better give that quote again: "The surgeons found, however, that their patients' memories of their ruler, his family, and some of his officials were too deeply entrenched to be eliminated altogether. To obscure the record, they renamed them. Their ruler, the man who called himself the monarch, became Pas, the shrew he had married Echidna, and so on."

Now to the third sentence of the Tartaros quote. After being made to forget how to worship properly, complete with sacrifices, when the first people saw the altars set up in the cities that had been built for them, they went back to worshipping as they had been taught, complete with sacrifices. What had changed?

I really have no vested interest one way or the other in the notion that Typhon and his family had been worshipped on Urth, so if anyone has a better explanation for Tartaros' statement, I'd like to see it. And that is not a challenge. BTW, while it is true that there is no evidence in the Urth Cycle that Typhon and his family had been worshipped back on Urth, neither is there any evidence that Catholicism or some approximation thereof had been practiced in Typhon's time. Here from memory is my list of the little we know about religion on Urth in

Roy- Now to the third sentence of the Tartaros quote. After being made to forget how to worship properly, complete with sacrifices, when the first people saw the altars set up in the cities that had been built for them, they went back to worshipping as they had been taught, complete with sacrifices. What had changed? Mr Thalassocrat wrote- Well, the worship they had been taught in the "orientation area", which had been attached to their deep memories of Typhon et al & so survived the wipe.

BTW, while it is true that there is no evidence in the Urth Cycle that Typhon and his family had been worshipped “back on Urth, neither is there any evidence that Catholicism or some approximation thereof had been practiced in Typhon's time.

Aren't the many close analogs between the Chapter and Roman Catholicism evidence of this” If Lemur is entirely correct that the Chapter was a parody of the state religion of Urth, then that religion is likely to have been something like Roman Catholicism. It is clear that the Gospels have survived to Typhon's time and been incorporated into the Writings because Silk refers to the event of Jesus casting out the money changers.

wrote:

Also. Severian dreams of a ritual taking place in the Citadel chapel at a time before the old sun was darkened, which invoves bread, wine and a knife - not exactly the Christian eucharist, but something like it.

On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 2:51 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote: Jack, the title is misleading. It was not an interview performed by Mantis. He only acted as a go between for members of this List asking questions about the Book of the Long Sun. The sources are not very easy to find by searching the Urth.net archives so I'll post them here: Mantis announces Wolfe's agreement to the Q&A: http://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0005/0258.shtml Q&A 1 http://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0006/0350.shtml Q&A 2 http://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0511.shtml "The Wolfean Oracle Speaks"

An interview by Michael Andre-Driussi: 4. Was what Silk saw in the manteion Pike's ghost, or an aquastor, or what? -- It was seen in the manse, not the manteion; it wasn't machine made. [DRL: See question 27.] 27. Is Pike's ghost really Quetzal? -- No. [DRL: Which blandly leaves the possibility that the `ghost' might still be another of the alien inhumi.... See question 4; also, below.] I don't have the date of this interview or where it was conducted. -- Best wishes, Jack

_______________________________________________

Me- At the end of RttW Oreb says "Good Fishing".

... Jerry Friedman - Sorry, where does he say that? In a quick look, I could only find where Daisy writes it five times at the very end of the book.

On 9/16/2010 6:13 PM, Matthew Weber wrote: On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com <mailto:andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>> wrote: Also. Severian dreams of a ritual taking place in the Citadel chapel at a time before the old sun was darkened, which invoves bread, wine and a knife - not exactly the Christian eucharist, but something like it. In the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, the (leavened) bread used in Communion is cut with a triangular-bladed knife, referred to as the Spear. -- Matt + It is when I struggle to be brief that I become obscure. Horace [Quintus Horatius Flaccus] (65-8 B.C.), Epistles, bk. III (Ars Poetica) [c. 8 B.C.], l. 25 _______________________________________________

"When the first people came here, Auk, they were shown how we desired to be worshipped. Soon, they were made to forget.

They did, but because they had seen what they had seen, a part of them remembered, and when they found our altars on the inner surface, they sacrificed as we had taught them. First of all, here."

She founded your Chapter as well, a parody of the state religion of her own whorl.

On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 2:19 AM, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: Take two. Let me give the Tartaros quote again: "When the first people came, Auk, they were shown how we desired to be worshipped. Soon, they were made to forget. They did, but because they had seen what they had seen, a part of them remembered, and when they found our altars on the inner surface, they sacrificed as we had taught them. First of all, here." Interpretations aside, it is indisputable that the worship preceded the forgetting. Why? I mean, why did the Typhons want to be worshipped at all? Lemur said the monarch's doctors had erased "as much as they dared of their patients' personal lives." Okay, I can accept that erasing the first people's personal memories might keep them from becoming disaffected with their new environment, but I have a hard time believing that the best way to go about making people forget someone is to first teach them to worship that someone. I can accept, in theory if not in practice, that an absolute dictator of a whole planet, who also had an unbridled ego, might have made himself so prominent in the lives of his subjects that he would leave an indelible mark on their memories, but why and how should that be the case for his wife and young children? His seven kids would have ranged in age from about 13 to 7 at the time they were scanned. We know that the eldest, Cilinia, died soon after being scanned. In Typhon's eyes, all of his children were found wanting in some way, if only by gender. Molpe was crazy, Tartaros blind and Hierax was a psycho who "inherited his father's virile indifference to the physical sensations of others to the point of mania." "He allowed himself to be seduced by it, to the point that he came to care for nothing else and while still a child slaughtered thousands for his amusement." (LAKE, chap. 12, 300) Under what possible circumstances would a boy of about ten have been allowed to slay thousands of people? Speaking confusedly of the Monarch's small second daughter, Mamelta said: "I remember seeing her often at home, dancing through my dreams. She was a wonderful dancer, but we cheered because we were afraid. You saw the hunger in her face for the kind of cheers the others got." (LAKE, chap. 10, 262) Why would Mamelta (and others) have feared how a little girl reacted to audience response? Had she feared the girl or one or both of her parents? Kypris also described a scene in which Typhon, apparently, had killed a thousand people who had been forced to kneel in a public square, while she was made to watch from a balcony while he watched her from another balcony. (NIGHTSIDE, chap. 12, 296-97) Scylla (in Chenille) told her newly appointed prophets (Auk, Dace, Incus) to kill fifty or a hundred children to attract her attention if Kypris made another theophany. When she departed Chenille at the Window at the lake, Auk saw "the sneering features of a girl a year or two from womanhood." (CALDE, chap. 1, 31) She was said to be "as strong-willed" as her father. The three youngest girls were: "Thelxiepeia with her spells and drugs and poisons, fat Phaea, and Sphigx, who combined her father's fortitude with her mother's vile temper. In a family such as hers, she would be forced to cultivate those qualities or die, unquestionably." (LAKE, chap. 12, 299-300) These things paint an ugly picture of the Typhons while they were flesh-and-blood people on Urth, and explains why they might not want the first people put aboard the ship to remember them. However, Mamelta, though she seemed not to have remembered Molpe's real name, remembered the dancing and the girl's hunger for adulation. The girl became the goddess of music, dance and art on the ship. The boy who slaughtered thousands became the god of death on the ship. Scylla said of her father, "In the beginning we chose up, with Daddy to be the god of everything--that's what his name meant--and boss over everybody." (LAKE, chap. 11, 274) Aggressive Sphigx became the goddess of war. Each family member's role as gods in Mainframe was a reflection of their personalities when they were flesh-and-blood people. The Typhons' names were changed when they became digitized entities in Mainframe, became gods with as much or more power than they ever had on Urth, now over a captive congregation rendered meek and unable to even think about opposing them, but that was after the first people on the ship had been taught how to worship them by burning animals on a sacrificial altar. So, again, what really changed when the Cargo was made to forget? Like Mamelta, Duko Rigoglio (aka Roger) had been a Sleeper forced to board the ship. Also like her, he could not remember what Pas' real name had been on Urth. But he remembered Nessus and the fact that he had lived somewhere south of the Citadel (IGJ, 218-19), which is where he received his fatal wound while on that astral trip there with Silkhorn. His rise to power on Blue had been modeled on Typhon's rise to power on Urth (279). When Silkhorn and Fava made that astral trip to the Duko's palace in Soldo, Rigoglio was curious about Oreb. Silkhorn explained that the bird had originally been intended as a sacrifice. The Duko admonished Silkhorn, saying "You failed repeatedly to honor the gods as is their right." "You wakers on the Whorl. In Nessus the gods walked among us, lords and ladies of Urth, even unto Shining Pas." (217) Note the plural, gods, flesh-and-blood entities seen by the public in Nessus. By Pas he means Typhon, the man with a single head. As I have said before, I don't care what religion(s) had been practiced during Typhon's reign or what the state religion may have been. But Rigoglio claimed that the Typhons had been regarded as gods on Urth, and that helps to explain some of the outrageous behavior attributed to them that I outlined above, and the sense of fear felt by people who had known them on Urth; gods can get away with anything, so long as they have the power. It also explains why Typhon's kids were so prominent in the minds of people put on the ship that they could not be forgotten. Rigoglio came to realize that some of his memories were false. If you want to argue that his memory of the Typhons as gods on Urth was false, then that directly contradicts the idea that Typhon wanted both sleeping and waking Cargo to forget him and his family. Though flesh-and-blood on Urth, in Mainframe they could only be virtual people, computer personalities who manifested themselves in computer terminals when they chose, or when summoned by sacrifices made in proximity to a computer terminal. The point is, they wanted to be worshipped, which brings me back to the oldest altar and the forgetting. Typhon elected to be portrayed as a two-headed freak, his wife with snakes in her hair, and their children not as little kids but as adults with physical attributes appropriate to their chosen roles as gods. An image on a computer screen lacks the presence and authority of a living physical being, but the Typhons had little choice and the worshippers they commandeered none. The people on the ship depended on the ship's gods for everything from day and night to the weather and almost everything else they needed to live. It seems to me that to maintain their positions as lords of the Whorl, when they were actually only virtual beings in a big computer, the Typhons used their god-like powers, which existed only by virtue of Mainframe, to intimidate those subject to their whims and utilized their computer-generated images as an interface, as their medium of command. On Urth, those people subject to their whims had been conditioned to obey real people, but on the ship those lords and masters were no longer real. On the ship as on Urth, the Typhons conducted themselves as gods, and they had the power to get away with it in both places. The altars and the burned sacrifices on the ship may have been new, but not the egos and behavior that prompted them. -Roy _______________________________________________

From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net> "When the first people came, Auk, they were shown how we desired to be worshipped. Soon, they were made to forget. They did, but because they had seen what they had seen, a part of them remembered, and when they found our altars on the inner surface, they sacrificed as we had taught them. First of all, here."

On 6 October 2010 07:19, Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net> wrote: The Duko admonished Silkhorn, saying "You failed repeatedly to honor the gods as is their right." "You wakers on the Whorl. In Nessus the gods walked among us, lords and ladies of Urth, even unto Shining Pas." (217) Note the plural, gods, flesh-and-blood entities seen by the public in Nessus. By Pas he means Typhon, the man with a single head. As I have said before, I don't care what religion(s) had been practiced during Typhon's reign or what the state religion may have been. But Rigoglio claimed that the Typhons had been regarded as gods on Urth, and that helps to explain some of the outrageous behavior attributed to them that I outlined above, and the sense of fear felt by people who had known them on Urth; gods can get away with anything, so long as they have the power.

On 10/6/2010 6:43 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote: From: "Roy C. Lackey" <rclackey at stic.net>

"When the first people came, Auk, they were shown how we desired to be worshipped. Soon, they were made to forget. They did, but because they had seen what they had seen, a part of them remembered, and when they found our altars on the inner surface, they sacrificed as we had taught them. First of all, here."

I think your post is excellent. The foregoing paragraph still seems rather mysterious, though, as it seems to hint at events during a period about which we know little or nothing - i.e. a time between when people first came to the Whorl, and when they began living on the inner surface, in cities such as Viron. Perhaps they lived in the tunnels while the main interior of the Whorl was excavated and terraformed. Their tasks would have included hauling out thousands of cubic kilometres of asteroid rock (makes me think of ancient Egyptians constructing the Pyramids). Mainframe probably did not yet exist. Did Typhon (and/or his family) institute a special form of worship during this period? - Gerry Quinn _______________________________________________

Roy C. Lackey- It is indisputable that the worship preceded the forgetting. Why? I mean, why did the Typhons want to be worshipped at all?

I have a hard time believing that the best way to go about making people forget someone is to first teach them to worship that someone.

Under what possible circumstances would a boy of about ten have been allowed to slay thousands of people?

Why would Mamelta (and others) have feared how a little girl reacted to audience response? Had she feared the girl or one or both of her parents?

Roy C. Lackey- Take two. [snip] Interpretations aside, it is indisputable that the worship preceded the forgetting. Why? I mean, why did the Typhons want to be worshipped at all?

I can accept, in theory if not in practice, that an absolute dictator of a whole planet, who also had an unbridled ego, might have made himself so prominent in the lives of his subjects that he would leave an indelible mark on their memories, but why and how should that be the case for his wife and young children? His seven kids would have ranged in age from about 13 to 7 at the time they were scanned. We know that the eldest, Cilinia, died soon after being scanned.

In Typhon's eyes, all of his children were found wanting in some way [snip] Hierax was a psycho who "inherited his father's virile indifference to the physical sensations of others to the point of mania."

[snip] Scylla (in Chenille) told her newly appointed prophets (Auk, Dace, Incus) to kill fifty or a hundred children to attract her attention if Kypris made another theophany.

[snip] The Typhons' names were changed when they became digitized entities in Mainframe, became gods with as much or more power than they ever had on Urth, now over a captive congregation rendered meek and unable to even think about opposing them, but that was after the first people on the ship had been taught how to worship them by burning animals on a sacrificial altar. So, again, what really changed when the Cargo was made to forget?

Rigoglio came to realize that some of his memories were false. If you want to argue that his memory of the Typhons as gods on Urth was false, then that directly contradicts the idea that Typhon wanted both sleeping and waking Cargo to forget him and his family.

James Wynn- As for why the children? That's a good question. That Typhon permitted his children to take part in his terror of Urth implies that he did not consider them a threat...he so them as part of his legacy.

Ant?nio Marques quoted and wrote: The Duko admonished Silkhorn, saying "You failed repeatedly to honor the gods as is their right." "You wakers on the Whorl. In Nessus the gods walked among us, lords and ladies of Urth, even unto Shining Pas." (217) Note the plural, gods, flesh-and-blood entities seen by the public in Nessus. By Pas he means Typhon, the man with a single head. As I have said before, I don't care what religion(s) had been practiced during Typhon's reign or what the state religion may have been. But Rigoglio claimed that the Typhons had been regarded as gods on Urth, and that helps to explain some of the outrageous behavior attributed to them that I outlined above, and the sense of fear felt by people who had known them on Urth; gods can get away with anything, so long as they have the power.

That's not how I read it (that the Typhons had been regarded as gods on Urth). Rather, the people he [now] knows as gods walked among him and others on Urth. Just as he doesn't remeber their names, he doesn't remember their role at the time; wakers take them as gods, so gods it is. Mamelta - who didn't have years after her awakening to come to regard the wakers' culture as more reliable than her own (a point Rigoglio stresses) - doesn't seem to regard Typhon as a god, but as a conqueror. Now, it isn't impossible that a god appears as a conqueror, but somehow it doesn't look like that to me in her discourse.

Roy C. Lackey: ...the gods could not follow the colonists to Blue.

Rigoglio had never been exposed to the gods-in-the-machine on the ship, and the gods could not follow the colonists to Blue. Even if he just gave lip-service to the ship's gods, just went along to get along on Blue, how could he recognize the two-headed freak the colonists spoke of back on the ship as the monarch he had known of on Urth? The people of Urth had known nothing of the head transplant, and the people on the ship at the time of the exodus knew nothing at all about Urth. How would he have equated the girl Cilinia on Urth with the tentacled being the people from the ship had called Scylla?

Roy C. Lackey: ...the gods could not follow the colonists to Blue.

Would seem to be true.

Roy- Rigoglio had never been exposed to the gods-in-the-machine on the ship, and the gods could not follow the colonists to Blue. Even if he just gave lip-service to the ship's gods, just went along to get along on Blue, how could he recognize the two-headed freak the colonists spoke of back on the ship as the monarch he had known of on Urth? The people of Urth had known nothing of the head transplant, and the people on the ship at the time of the exodus knew nothing at all about Urth. How would he have equated the girl Cilinia on Urth with the tentacled being the people from the ship had called Scylla?

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> Subject: Re: (urth) Oldest altar To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net> Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 10:45 AM Roy- Rigoglio had never been exposed to the gods-in-the-machine on the ship, and the gods could not follow the colonists to Blue. Even if he just gave lip-service to the ship's gods, just went along to get along on Blue, how could he recognize the two-headed freak the colonists spoke of back on the ship as the monarch he had known of on Urth? The people of Urth had known nothing of the head transplant, and the people on the ship at the time of the exodus knew nothing at all about Urth. How would he have equated the girl Cilinia on Urth with the tentacled being the people from the ship had called Scylla?

entonio: the typhons (do I love this plural!)

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> Subject: (urth) Oldest altar To: urth at lists.urth.net Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 12:06 PM entonio: the typhons (do I? love this plural!)?

On 10/8/2010 9:56 AM, Dave Tallman wrote: David Stockhoff wrote: I'll bet there's been an episode where Homer had 2 heads, at least briefly. If not, it's about time! Yes, in "Treehouse of Horror II" Homer had Mr. Burn's head grafted to his body. Given the character of Burns, that's a good match with Typhon/Piaton. Since it's a Treehouse episode it's not in the normal continuity. _______________________________________________ Urth Mailing List To post, write urth at urth.net