# The face of Pas *The Urth list — 78 messages, 18 voices, 11 Sep 2010* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Roy C. Lackey *11 Sep 2010, 05:33* Typhon's maniacal obsession with his own face is a given, well established in the Urth Cycle. The head on the left side of Piaton's body had yellow hair, the head on the right side had black hair (SWORD, chap. XXIV). The head on the left was Typhon's (URTH, chap. XXXIX, 274). Severian at first thought Piaton "a species of idiot" (SWORD, XXV) because he rolled his eyes and his lips moved but he was unable to speak. Piaton was unable to speak because "He can't get his breath, poor fellow," as Typhon put it (ibid, XXVI). Silk had yellow hair, as is mentioned many times in LS. Shortly after Mint and Remora and some others climbed out of the tunnels, Remora shot Sand and Pas made a theophany in the Sacred Window in the Prolocutor's Palace. This is what Mint saw: ------------------ She blinked and stared, then blinked again. Not one face but two crowded the Window, one gaping and gasping, the other radiant with power and majesty, just--and more than just--pitiless and nurturing. "My faithful people," intoned Twice-headed Pas, "receive the blessing of your god." (EXODUS, 204) ------------------ The "gaping and gasping" face was clearly Piaton's. Mint (and Remora) damn well knew what Silk's face looked like. Had she recognized the other face in the Window as Silk's, she would have been shocked silly and the course of the story would have changed radically. Ergo, the other face was not Silk's. Nature versus nurture issues aside, on the nature end a clone should look almost identical to the original. -Roy --- ### Jeff Wilson *11 Sep 2010, 06:37 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > On 9/11/2010 12:33 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: > Typhon's maniacal obsession with his own face is a given, well established > in the Urth Cycle. The head on the left side of Piaton's body had yellow > hair, the head on the right side had black hair (SWORD, chap. XXIV). The > head on the left was Typhon's (URTH, chap. XXXIX, 274). Severian at first > thought Piaton "a species of idiot" (SWORD, XXV) because he rolled his eyes > and his lips moved but he was unable to speak. Piaton was unable to speak > because "He can't get his breath, poor fellow," as Typhon put it (ibid, > XXVI). > > Silk had yellow hair, as is mentioned many times in LS. > > Shortly after Mint and Remora and some others climbed out of the tunnels, > Remora shot Sand and Pas made a theophany in the Sacred Window in the > Prolocutor's Palace. This is what Mint saw: > ------------------ > She blinked and stared, then blinked again. Not one face but two crowded the > Window, one gaping and gasping, the other radiant with power and majesty, > just--and more than just--pitiless and nurturing. "My faithful people," > intoned Twice-headed Pas, "receive the blessing of your god." (EXODUS, 204) > ------------------ > > The "gaping and gasping" face was clearly Piaton's. Mint (and Remora) damn > well knew what Silk's face looked like. Had she recognized the other face in > the Window as Silk's, she would have been shocked silly and the course of > the story would have changed radically. Ergo, the other face was not Silk's. > > Nature versus nurture issues aside, on the nature end a clone should look > almost identical to the original. But Typhon has probably been through a lot of nurture in his time. The author can also play tricks, like reversing the video side-to-side, so that an asymmetrical face becomes merely a familial resemblance. Facial asymmetry has been noted in and associated with particularly gifted and driven people as well as those afflicted with harmful conditions like stroke and Bell's Palsy, and in particular cerebral palsy and muscular dystrophy is associated with people who are both gifted and afflicted, and have been for enough time to have been circulated into the author's command of scientific concepts. Or perhaps the commonality of clones of various Typhonian family members prevents Silk's resemblance to Pas from being particularly remarkable, because lots of people on the Whorl have a similar degree of resemblance as a young adult clone would have to his octagenerian original. And the second, uncoordinated head has to be be one hell of a distraction. One is left to wonder why Typhon doesn't have some other arrangement, like an opaque or catoptric dome to hide Piaton's silent gibbering. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` --- ### Roy C. Lackey *12 Sep 2010, 03:51 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* Jeff Wilson wrote: [snip] > Or perhaps the commonality of clones of various Typhonian family members > prevents Silk's resemblance to Pas from being particularly remarkable, > because lots of people on the Whorl have a similar degree of resemblance > as a young adult clone would have to his octagenerian original. There are no references to clones in LS or SS, but there are the khaibits of NS who do closely resemble their originals. Severian gives no indication that the Typhon face/head he twice saw was that of an old man, which would have been in stark contrast to the gladiator body it was attached to. When Silk was buried in that tunnel collapse and made his brief sojourn to Mainframe heaven, he saw his biological parents. The male bio parent had blue eyes, like Silk. A clone necessarily comes from the same genetic lineage as the original. In other words, the bio parents of the clone are the same as the bio parents of the original. Had Silk been a clone of Typhon, the bio parents he saw in Mainframe would have been Typhon's parents. Typhon supposedly wasn't native to Urth and claimed not to have been born at all in the usual sense. There is no logical reason for Typhon's parents to have been on the _Whorl_ or in Mainframe at all. It is possible that Typhon and the bio female parent Silk saw in Mainframe contributed the basic genetic material that went into the embryo that became Silk, but that would make them more-or-less conventional parents whose genetic material had been modified to produce particular genetic improvements, making Silk a "designer baby", but in that case he would not be a clone of Typhon. Further, the bio parents should have been dead on the _Whorl_ in order to be in Mainframe heaven. Typhon, at least, died on Urth. When Silk tried to use the glass on the airship, Kypris appeared and tempted him to go to Mainframe for a god-grade scan, so that he could become Pas and Pas him. She, apparently meaning the bio woman who had been Typhon's mistress on Urth, claimed to have been scanned at Mainframe: "As I was scanned, Silk, with him. He held my hand. . . ." (EXODUS, chap. 15, 346) She then showed him an image of "a bronze-limbed man with rippling muscles and two heads", one of which was Silk's. Granted, the image she showed him was probably photoshopped, but only one of the heads looked like Silk. Which of Pas' two traditional heads did she replace with Silk's? If she substituted Silk's head for Piaton's, then the Typhon head didn't look like Silk, even to Silk. If she substituted Silk's head for Typhon's, then Silk's still didn't look like Typhon's, otherwise there was no point in making the switch. If you want to say that she didn't make a switch, that Typhon and Silk had always looked alike, then Mint and Remora should have seen that Silk looked just like Typhon during the earlier Pas theophany at the Prolocutor's Palace. -Roy --- ### Dave Tallman *12 Sep 2010, 06:41 · follows Roy C. Lackey* Roy C. Lackey wrote: When Silk was buried in that tunnel collapse and made his brief sojourn to Mainframe heaven, he saw his biological parents. The male bio parent had blue eyes, like Silk. A clone necessarily comes from the same genetic lineage as the original. In other words, the bio parents of the clone are the same as the bio parents of the original. Had Silk been a clone of Typhon, the bio parents he saw in Mainframe would have been Typhon's parents. Typhon supposedly wasn't native to Urth and claimed not to have been born at all in the usual sense. There is no logical reason for Typhon's parents to have been on the _Whorl_ or in Mainframe at all. Do we know for sure that the spirits he saw were manifested by the Mainframe? One of them says, "You must go back, Silk. He sends us to tell you." If "He" is the Outsider, there are no restrictions on who could be manifested based on where they resided or died. They could be Typhon's parent's, if Silk is a clone. Or they could be Typhon and Mamelta, if he's a biological son. (Hopefully not Typhon and Kypris, because that would be a bit incestuous -- Kypris' promise of "We'd be together then" doesn't sound entirely platonic. Indeed, in RttW, Silkhorn doubts that Silversilk in Pig would have bothered looking for the ghost of Hyacinth as long as he had Kypris instead.) I don't find the argument of Mint's non-reaction totally convincing. The commanding expression, the enhancement of godly images in a theophany, and the many representations of Pas in art and sculpture could have accustomed Mint to a face like Silk's without any confusion. The image Kypris shows Silk of what it would be like to be an aspect of Pas is more convincing, as long as it wasn't Piaton's head that was replaced. But I'm tempted to think it was Piaton's. The Outsider has taken over Pas. He wouldn't yield the driver's seat to Silk. --- ### Roy C. Lackey *13 Sep 2010, 02:09 · in reply to Dave Tallman* > Dave Tallman wrote: > Do we know for sure that the spirits he saw were manifested by the > Mainframe? One of them says, "You must go back, Silk. He sends us to > tell you." If "He" is the Outsider, there are no restrictions on who > could be manifested based on where they resided or died. I agree. And Silk did think it was the Outsider who had brought him back. "You returned me to life, Outsider," (Calde, chap. 9, 331). The thing is, this clone stuff in LS/SS is something I have been fighting against for years, in long and ugly battles that gained notoriety here as the Clone Wars. Even the particulars of who said what in that scene has been disputed in furtherance of certain viewpoints. I don't want to re-hash all that, but it has been argued that Silk's vision was of Mainframe heaven, and the text does say that he saw the Aureate Path and lighted upon it just before he saw the four people. Of course he found the Aureate Path to be underwhelming, but he had been conditioned all his life to think of the afterlife in those terms. In other words, this topic has deep roots that I have to contend with that underlie my arguments. > They could be > Typhon's parent's, if Silk is a clone. Or they could be Typhon and > Mamelta, if he's a biological son. Mamelta? I don't think Mamelta was Typhon's mistress back on Urth, the analogue woman who became the digital Kypris, so to speak, if that's what you mean. Anyway, Silk had seen Mamelta in the flesh and should have recognized her in his vision of his biological mother; I can't see that he did. > (Hopefully not Typhon and Kypris, > because that would be a bit incestuous -- Kypris' promise of "We'd be > together then" doesn't sound entirely platonic. Indeed, in RttW, > Silkhorn doubts that Silversilk in Pig would have bothered looking for > the ghost of Hyacinth as long as he had Kypris instead.) I'm glad you said that. > I don't find the argument of Mint's non-reaction totally convincing. > The commanding expression, the enhancement of godly images in a > theophany, and the many representations of Pas in art and sculpture > could have accustomed Mint to a face like Silk's without any > confusion. Could be. But I think it a little odd that no one in seven books ever suggests that Silk, even at the age of forty-three, looks anything like the Pas of art or theophany, and Mint saw him at that age. In the case of Severian, an innkeeper pointed out to him how much he looked like an older Ouen. > The image Kypris shows Silk of what it would be like to be > an aspect of Pas is more convincing, as long as it wasn't Piaton's > head that was replaced. But I'm tempted to think it was Piaton's. I also think it was probably Piaton's head she had replaced with Silk's. Even so, since Kypris was trying to connect Silk with Pas, if she showed him their two heads and he recognized only one of them as his own, it is easier for me to believe that was because the Pas head didn't really look like Silk. Typhon's obsession with his own face suggests that his Pas image would have been the same as it had been when scanned, as the fact that Piaton's idiot head remained part of the digitized image of Pas reinforces. > The > Outsider has taken over Pas. He wouldn't yield the driver's seat to > Silk. I agree that the Outsider wanted the Plan of Pas to be executed. But I don't think he was pulling Pas' strings. -Roy --- ### James Wynn *13 Sep 2010, 17:31 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > Roy C. Lackey wrote- > Typhon's maniacal obsession with his own face is a given, well established > in the Urth Cycle.[snip]Nature versus nurture issues aside, on the nature end a clone should look almost identical to the original. I hate to get picky about the text but there is absolutely no emphatic reason to believe that Typhon would be singularly identifiable from either his Pas-avatar or the iconography associated with him. There are lots of people today who "look like Jesus" because they are thin and have longish hair and a beard. I imagine any tall blonde-haired, clean shaven man on the Whorl would look like Typhon's head. Does one really suppose that any of the other gods could have been recognized by their original face? Anyway, how old was Typhon when he was scanned? Imagine one could view a photograph of the model for Michaelangelo's painting of God taken as a young man. Would anyone looking at it think "Say! He looks like God!" Okay. So there's that. But the idea that Typhon was egotistically--let alone "manically"--obsessed with his face is simply not true based on his discussion with Severian in Sword of the Lictor. Keeping his original head, in the original case, was a practical issue: "My physicians, of whom I naturally had the best of many worlds, told me it might be possible for me to take a new body, their first thought being to enclose my brain in the skull previously occupied by another. You see the flaw in that?"[snip] The face would be lost, and it is the face that men are accustomed to obey!" So Typhon believed that if he had a new face, his subjects would treat him as an heir rather than the rule to whom they had already accespted. But in dealing with memory-wiped Cargo this was not important at all.** Pas's appearance was limited only by Typhon's sense of humor. The whole thing was intended as a joke. A parody. Otherwise, why give Piaton any role at all. **That the waking Cargo was memory-wiped in the same fashion as as the Sleepers were seems the obvious implication. There is simply no way people would come to _believe in_ the Whorl Gods and forget their true natures in the few centuries since the Whorl left Urth. In fact, it is hard for me to see how any real observant religion could have ever been more than something for kooky cults. How the Ayuntamiento were aware of the secret history of Typhon is probably an interesting story. But there are any number of ways they could have rediscovered that knowledge. It was likely no great secret to the non-Cargo who did not worship the gods as far as I can tell. > Roy (to Jeff Wilson) - > There are no references to clones in LS or SS, but there are the khaibits of > NS who do closely resemble their originals. Severian gives no indication > that the Typhon face/head he twice saw was that of an old man, which would > have been in stark contrast to the gladiator body it was attached to. > Silk had yellow hair, as is mentioned many times in LS. A lack of positive indication is usually pretty weak evidence. In a Wolfe novel, sometimes it is evidence of the opposite. But even if Typhon were a middle-aged man, the baby-fat of his teen-age years stripped away, it would be enough difference that people would never remark "You look like Pas". Give it 15 or 20 years and people might refer to him as "That patera who even looks like Pas." But it wouldn't blow anyone away any more than having a guy play Santa Clause who also happens to have cherubic cheeks, a white beard, and a some extra meat around the middle. > When Silk was buried in that tunnel collapse and made his brief sojourn to > Mainframe heaven, he saw his biological parents. The male bio parent had > blue eyes, like Silk. A clone necessarily comes from the same genetic > lineage as the original. In other words, the bio parents of the clone are > the same as the bio parents of the original. Had Silk been a clone of > Typhon, the bio parents he saw in Mainframe would have been Typhon's > parents. I don't know how to respond to this. This so totally ignores the elastic definitions Wolfe deliberately employs throughout the LS/SS novels for "father", "son", "sister", "daughter", even "mother". To try to nail down an emphatic definition of these terms is to totally miss the spirit of the novel. Why not insist that the team of scientists who extracted the embryos meet Silk in Mainframe? Tussah insists that the next Calde will be his "son"-- although he openly admits "he is not the son of my body". The Rajan calls three inhumans his sons and daughters (and, as for Jahlee, sometimes his "sister"). Magnesia/Marble calls Mucor her grand-daughter. In the case of one or two of the inhumans, there is indisputably more to those designations than random familiarity. I believe it is true in the other cases as well. Yeah, Silk says the Outsider brought him back. I don't doubt that, just as it could be said for anyone with a near-death experience. But there is a genuine implication that Quetzal was a partial agent in accomplishing his return. > Typhon supposedly wasn't native to Urth and claimed not to have > been born at all in the usual sense. There is no logical reason for Typhon's > parents to have been on the_Whorl_ or in Mainframe at all. There is also no reason for a random embryo loaded on the Whorl before leaving Urth to have parents in Mainframe either. The idea of a being such as Silk having multiple souls who feel for him as "parents" is peculiar. Yeah, his birth-mother, sure. But Tussah? Really? And for the reason you give here, it's hard to imagine who the other set of parents would be if they are not Typhon and "Kypris". The meeting of Silk with his "parents" is weird. I find it unlikely that the scene means what we think it does or the motivations are as we suppose. If Silk is in Heaven, why would his parents care about accomplishing the Plan of Pas. Surely they are beyond such worries. If he is in the Mainframe, how does his uploaded psyche return to his body? > Dave Tallman - > The > Outsider has taken over Pas. He wouldn't yield the driver's seat to > Silk. > > Roy - > I agree that the Outsider wanted the Plan of Pas to be executed. But I don't > think he was pulling Pas' strings. I don't think this quite gets at what the Outsider is saying. He says that a demon who imitates a god, eventually becomes a god. He doesn't say the god possesses the demon. In other words, because Kypris is the most like the Outsider, her behavior and plans have the most quickly begun to parallel those of the Outsider. There are analogies to this throught the novel. Quetzel pretends to be a Good Shepherd and ends up taking the risks and even dying in the tunnels while leading his flock safely to the landers. Also, General Mint says that she doesn't care that Spider has infiltrated her ranks with spies because in order to be good spies they will have to be exceptionally good soldiers. In other words, but pretending to be loyal soldiers, their actions become those of loyal soldiers. Hmmm...there is another parallel to Fifth Head of Cerberus in that. u+16b9 --- ### DAVID STOCKHOFF *13 Sep 2010, 19:39 · in reply to James Wynn* I emphatically agree with the following: --- On?Mon, 9/13/10, James Wynn??wrote: > From: James Wynn > Subject: Re: (urth) The face of Pas > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Monday, September 13, 2010, 1:31 PM > Roy C. Lackey wrote- > Typhon's maniacal obsession with his own face is a given, well established > in the Urth Cycle...... But the idea that Typhon was egotistically--let alone "manically"--obsessed with his face is simply not true based on his discussion with Severian in Sword of the Lictor. Keeping his original head, in the original case, was a practical issue..... u+16b9 However, there must be some flexibility here: "That the waking Cargo was memory-wiped in the same fashion as as the Sleepers were seems the obvious implication. There is simply no way people would come to _believe in_ the Whorl Gods and forget their true natures in the few centuries since the Whorl left Urth. In fact, it is hard for me to see how any real observant religion could have ever been more than something for kooky cults." While this is reasonable, we have to allow room for the author to carry out his plans. The ease with which humans forget, or lose their faith or regain it or find it in something else, might be a starting point as well as it might be an end point for Wolfe. --- ### Dave Tallman *14 Sep 2010, 02:46 · follows DAVID STOCKHOFF* > Roy C. Lackey wrote: > Could be. But I think it a little odd that no one in seven books ever > suggests that Silk, even at the age of forty-three, looks anything like the > Pas of art or theophany, and Mint saw him at that age. In the case of > Severian, an innkeeper pointed out to him how much he looked like an older > Ouen. > > > We ought to look at resemblances people really notice in the books and see > what explanations are possible. 1) Silk mistakes his astral-travelling older self for Patera Pike. This was in bad light and just a glimpse of the lower part of his face. 2) Severian mistakes the astral-travelling Silk for Master Malrubius. This is more troubling because Sev got a longer look and he has a near-photographic memory. The Severian that Silk meets is probably an early iteration, maybe even Sev1. He keeps his dog longer, and he has a relationship with Merryn and probably not with Thecla. It seems like he draws inspiration from the goodness of Silk, and maybe that "ghost" incident drove him out of the Guild and to the north to become Autarch for the first time. The aquastor who helps him in later iterations is probably drawn more from Silk than from the old Malrubius. But why does Silk look so much like Malrubius to Sev? --- ### Roy C. Lackey *14 Sep 2010, 04:14 · in reply to James Wynn* James Wynn wrote: [snip] > But the idea that Typhon was egotistically--let alone > "manically"--obsessed with his face is simply not true based on his > discussion with Severian in Sword of the Lictor. Keeping his original > head, in the original case, was a practical issue: Having one's head cut off to preserve the face is very radical, particularly if there were other options available, such as clones and chem bodies that could be made to look human, as was the demonstrated case with Potto and Lemur. One for Siyuf was whipped out in about two-day's time. > "My physicians, of whom I naturally had the best of many worlds, > told me it might be possible for me to take a new body, their first > thought > being to enclose my brain in the skull previously occupied by another. > You see > the flaw in that?"[snip] The face would be lost, and it is the face that > men are > accustomed to obey!" > > So Typhon believed that if he had a new face, his subjects would treat > him as an heir rather than the rule to whom they had already accespted. > But in dealing with memory-wiped Cargo this was not important at all.** > Pas's appearance was limited only by Typhon's sense of humor. The whole > thing was intended as a joke. A parody. Otherwise, why give Piaton any > role at all. > > **That the waking Cargo was memory-wiped in the same fashion as as the > Sleepers were seems the obvious implication. Neither the waking Cargo nor the Sleepers were memory-wiped, but in the case of the Sleepers, at least, their brains were tinkered with. "You talked about Mucor. The monarch's doctors tinkered with the minds of the men and women he put into the whorl as Blood's surgeon did with hers. But more skillfully, erasing as much as they dared of their patients' personal lives." (LAKE, chap. 12, 299) > There is simply no way > people would come to _believe in_ the Whorl Gods and forget their true > natures in the few centuries since the Whorl left Urth. In fact, it is > hard for me to see how any real observant religion could have ever been > more than something for kooky cults. This is what the text has to say about it: "There you have it. The surgeons found, however, that their patients' memories of their ruler, his family, and some of his officials were too deeply entrenched to be eliminated altogether. To obscure the record, they renamed them. Their ruler, the man who called himself the monarch, became Pas, the shrew he had married Echidna, and so on. She had borne him seven children. We call them Scylla, Molpe, Tartaros, Hierax, Thelxiepeia, Phaea, and Sphigx." (ibid) What did Typhon's wife and young children have to do with anything? Why were the memories of Typhon's family so deeply entrenched in the minds of the people put aboard the _Whorl_ that not even a surgeon's knife could eliminate them? For an answer, look to what Lemur next had to say: "The monarch had wanted a son to succeed him. Scylla was as strong-willed as the monarch himself, but female. It is a law of nature, as concerns our race, that females are subject to males. Her father allowed her to found our city, however, and many others. She founded your Chapter as well, a parody of the state religion of her own whorl. She was hardly more than a child, you understand, and the rest younger even than she." (ibid) There is your "parody". Typhon and his family were entrenched in the minds of the people of Urth because they had been forced upon the people of Urth, possibly in the form of the state religion. The initial waking Cargo were a captive congregation with even less choice in the matter than when they were on Urth, regardless of the "true natures" of Typhon's screwed-up kids. Whether or not worship of Typhon and his family was the state religion on Urth, the fact remains that his family was entrenched in the minds of people put aboard the _Whorl_, and the only solution found to what was apparently some sort of problem associated with that fact was to rename them. Renamed, they became gods in Mainframe. For the religion of Viron to be a parody of the state religion on Urth, the state religion on Urth must have been polytheistic, otherwise the solution would have generated more problems than the solution was intended to remedy. -Roy --- ### Lee Berman *14 Sep 2010, 13:42 · follows Roy C. Lackey* > Lemur: "The monarch had wanted a son to succeed him. Scylla was as strong-willed as the > monarch himself, but female. It is a law of nature, as concerns our race, that females are > subject to males. Her father allowed her to found our city, however, and many others. She > founded your Chapter as well, a parody of *the state religion of her own whorl*. She was hardly > more than a child, you understand, and the rest younger even than she." > Roy C. Lackey: For the religion of Viron to be a parody of the state religion on Urth, the state > religion on Urth must have been polytheistic. Typhon ruled a multi-planet empire. To me the above passage suggests that Typhon installed Scylla as the ruler of another planet and it is that place which has the polytheistic religion Viron's was based upon. The Empire had much interstellar travel and trade so I don't see that everything on The Whorl needed to come from Urth. I have to wonder about Lemur's "law of nature, as concerns our race". He is more than slightly aware of Trivigaunte. Does he consider Trivigaunte a violation of the laws of nature? Or is there perhaps some question about which race of beings he is talking about? --- ### Gerry Quinn *14 Sep 2010, 14:57 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > From: "Roy C. Lackey" > I also think it was probably Piaton's head she had replaced with Silk's. > Even so, since Kypris was trying to connect Silk with Pas, if she showed > him > their two heads and he recognized only one of them as his own, it is > easier > for me to believe that was because the Pas head didn't really look like > Silk. Typhon's obsession with his own face suggests that his Pas image > would have been the same as it had been when scanned, as the fact that > Piaton's idiot head remained part of the digitized image of Pas > reinforces. It's worth noting that the *significance* of the two heads may be different in the case of digitised Pas, compared to biological Typhon. Granted, in one vision we see Piaton struggling for breath. But elsewhere Silk thinks of two heads as being a sign of wisdom, universality, or some such - he thinks of the Outsider as having two or more voices. Now Kypris is not Silk, but she could have been suggesting some such idea. It seems probable to me that Pas has failed to fully ressurect, and Silk is needed to replace some significant part of him. - Gerry Quinn --- ### James Wynn *14 Sep 2010, 15:28 · in reply to Dave Tallman* > Roy - Could be. But I think it a little odd that no one in seven books ever > suggests that Silk, even at the age of forty-three, looks anything like the > Pas of art or theophany, and Mint saw him at that age. In the case of > Severian, an innkeeper pointed out to him how much he looked like an older > Ouen. Even people strongly disinclined to "clone-theories" have recognized strong associations between Silk and Typhon/Pas. I suspect Wolfe --who left far more subtle narrative details inexplicit-- considered such a reference to be too "on the nose". > D. Tallman- We ought to look at resemblances people really notice in > the books and see what explanations are possible. 1) Silk mistakes his > astral-travelling older self for Patera Pike. This was in bad light > and just a glimpse of the lower part of his face. I now believe that the real Patera Pike could not have been the astral-traveling Rajan. Too many references to Pike as a young man. Since I consider the "mistaken identity" explanation unacceptable in a Wolfe novel, clones are the only explanation I can think of. If anyone can think of another reason Silk would mistake the Rajan for Pike, I'm open for business. > 2) Severian mistakes the astral-travelling Silk for Master Malrubius. > This is more troubling because Sev got a longer look and he has a > near-photographic memory. Don Doggett had a very wide-ranging clone theory that involved even Severian himself being a clone of one of the sons of Typhon. Obviously, with Time travel on the table in the Book and Urth of the New Sun, there are other explanations available. But clones should not be dispensed in this case for merely philosophical preferences. Sev _does_ make blatant errors in memory where he should not. But I doubt that is the issue here. > The Severian that Silk meets is probably an early iteration, maybe > even Sev1. He keeps his dog longer, and he has a relationship with > Merryn and probably not with Thecla. It seems like he draws > inspiration from the goodness of Silk, and maybe that "ghost" incident > drove him out of the Guild and to the north to become Autarch for the > first time. The aquastor who helps him in later iterations is probably > drawn more from Silk than from the old Malrubius. Minor errors in timelines are notorious as errors authors make in sequels. I would prefer that-- since otherwise divining what is going on becomes even more daunting. u+16b9 --- ### James Wynn *14 Sep 2010, 16:27 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* >> Me - But the idea that Typhon was egotistically--let alone >> "manically"--obsessed with his face is simply not true based on his >> discussion with Severian in Sword of the Lictor. Keeping his original >> head, in the original case, was a practical issue: > Roy = Having one's head cut off to preserve the face is very radical, particularly > if there were other options available, such as clones and chem bodies that > could be made to look human, as was the demonstrated case with Potto and > Lemur. One for Siyuf was whipped out in about two-day's time. There are downsides to chem bodies as the Ayuntamiento discovered. Being downloaded into a chem body might reasonably give Typhon no more actual legal status than uploading his personality into a computer. There is no evidence of fast-grown clones being an available option in any of the novels. The point remains that Typhon said he used the method he did for practical reasons. Not egotistical ones. >> Me - **That the waking Cargo was memory-wiped in the same fashion as as the >> Sleepers were seems the obvious implication. > Roy - Neither the waking Cargo nor the Sleepers were memory-wiped, but in the case > of the Sleepers, at least, their brains were tinkered with. Yes, The memories of the waking cargo were strategically wiped and added to. That's what I was getting at -- as described in quotes you offered. They didn't forget that they had left Urth. They probably knew initially what the purpose of their cards was (although the significance of their value might have unintentionally been softened). But they did not remember Typhon as normal human dictator. The augurs and sybils and the congregants thought of their religion as one practiced throughout their lives. The *idea* of Typhon and his family could not be expunged. It is unlikely that any people on Urth thought of him as a two-headed being. He could not have been in that form long before he died. And if there had been a religion centered around Typhon --one that could not be expunged from the memory of the Cargo-- then it would not have dissipated with his death as easily as his government did (dividing allegiance between the competing alien powers). > Roy - What did Typhon's wife and young children have to do with anything? Why were > the memories of Typhon's family so deeply entrenched in the minds of the > people put aboard the _Whorl_ that not even a surgeon's knife could > eliminate them? For an answer, look to what Lemur next had to say: "The > monarch had wanted a son to succeed him. Scylla was as strong-willed as the > monarch himself, but female. It is a law of nature, as concerns our race, > that females are subject to males. Her father allowed her to found our city, > however, and many others. She founded your Chapter as well, a parody of the > state religion of her own whorl. She was hardly more than a child, you > understand, and the rest younger even than she." (ibid) > > There is your "parody". Typhon and his family were entrenched in the minds > of the people of Urth because they had been forced upon the people of Urth, > possibly in the form of the state religion. No. I do not see how this can be at all. The text you are providing does not map to your conclusion. Not at all. The child Cilinia could not have designed all the traditions of the Chapter. No way. Typhon's committees did that on an ad hoc basis-- the same way they put together the Writings. When Lemur say she "founded" the Chapter and Viron and other cities, he is talking about a titular role--with little more input than a suggestion here and there. That's why Lemur stipulates that she was little more than a child. The state religion on Urth was real one- an established one analogous to the Catholic Church...thus the similarities. Your explanation of the parody leaves little room for parody. Nor does it explain how religions of other cultures are also parodies of known world religions. For example, the parody of Islam among the Trivigaunte does not require a male god for ultimate devotion--everything is reversed from Islamic culture regarding male-female relations. The reason Typhon and family are so ingrained in the minds of the Urthlings is obvious from looking at the personality cults established by lesser tyrants like Stalin and Saddam, and the obsession people have with their royal families (ala the U.K.) > Whether or not worship of Typhon and his family was the state religion on > Urth, the fact remains that his family was entrenched in the minds of people > put aboard the _Whorl_, and the only solution found to what was apparently > some sort of problem associated with that fact was to rename them. Renamed, > they became gods in Mainframe. For the religion of Viron to be a parody of > the state religion on Urth, the state religion on Urth must have been > polytheistic, otherwise the solution would have generated more problems than > the solution was intended to remedy. Urth's state religion was not centered around the worship of Typhon and his family. There's no evidence of a surviving cult of worship around Typhon in Severian's day. There is no hint that the people the Conciliator encountered viewed him that way. I don't think Wolfe the author was so constrained that the state religion the Chapter parodied had to be polytheistic. Typhon only needed to have the personalities of his family to be redrawn in caricature. The Typhonic family was an issue, but the various religions (as I said, those of other cities were vastly different) he didn't care about at all. He played with them freely. If I were to carry what you are arguing to its logical end, then Typhon was undermining his plan by having Echidna with snake hair and Scylla with tentacles. And little Hierax as the god of death? Really? u+16b9 --- ### James Wynn *14 Sep 2010, 16:40 · in reply to Gerry Quinn* > Gerry Quinn--It seems probable to me that Pas has failed to fully > ressurect, and Silk is needed to replace some significant part of him. That seems to be the implication based on the analogous situation with Scylla. Pas was wiped from the Mainframe. Fragments of him survived in Patera Jerboa, and IMO Oreb and Sand. But these were not sufficient for him to perform his required operations in Mainframe. That Silk was seen as an important viable supplement to Pas is one of the bigger hints that he is a clone of Typhon. What the technicians could not have anticipated was that their clone would have been enlightened by the Outsider. Thus, in a sense, the Outsider has become Pas. u+16b9 --- ### Jack Smith *14 Sep 2010, 16:41 · in reply to James Wynn* "I don't think Wolfe the author was so constrained that the state religion the Chapter parodied had to be polytheistic. " Yes. I've always taken the parody (of the state religion and of Catholicism) to consist of such things as a celibate priesthood, celibate nuns who teach children, confession, absolution, last rites, and the voided cross. The original religion does not have to have been polytheistic. > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 12:27 PM, James Wynn wrote: > > Me - But the idea that Typhon was egotistically--let alone >>> "manically"--obsessed with his face is simply not true based on his >>> discussion with Severian in Sword of the Lictor. Keeping his original >>> head, in the original case, was a practical issue: >> Roy = Having one's head cut off to preserve the face is very radical, >> particularly >> >> if there were other options available, such as clones and chem bodies that >> could be made to look human, as was the demonstrated case with Potto and >> Lemur. One for Siyuf was whipped out in about two-day's time. > There are downsides to chem bodies as the Ayuntamiento discovered. Being > downloaded into a chem body might reasonably give Typhon no more actual > legal status than uploading his personality into a computer. There is no > evidence of fast-grown clones being an available option in any of the > novels. The point remains that Typhon said he used the method he did for > practical reasons. Not egotistical ones. > > Me - **That the waking Cargo was memory-wiped in the same fashion as as > the >>> Sleepers were seems the obvious implication. >> Roy - Neither the waking Cargo nor the Sleepers were memory-wiped, but in >> the case >> >> of the Sleepers, at least, their brains were tinkered with. > Yes, The memories of the waking cargo were strategically wiped and added > to. That's what I was getting at -- as described in quotes you offered. They > didn't forget that they had left Urth. They probably knew initially what the > purpose of their cards was (although the significance of their value might > have unintentionally been softened). But they did not remember Typhon as > normal human dictator. The augurs and sybils and the congregants thought of > their religion as one practiced throughout their lives. > > The *idea* of Typhon and his family could not be expunged. It is unlikely > that any people on Urth thought of him as a two-headed being. He could not > have been in that form long before he died. > > And if there had been a religion centered around Typhon --one that could > not be expunged from the memory of the Cargo-- then it would not have > dissipated with his death as easily as his government did (dividing > allegiance between the competing alien powers). > > Roy - What did Typhon's wife and young children have to do with anything? >> Why were >> >> the memories of Typhon's family so deeply entrenched in the minds of the >> people put aboard the _Whorl_ that not even a surgeon's knife could >> eliminate them? For an answer, look to what Lemur next had to say: "The >> monarch had wanted a son to succeed him. Scylla was as strong-willed as >> the >> monarch himself, but female. It is a law of nature, as concerns our race, >> that females are subject to males. Her father allowed her to found our >> city, >> however, and many others. She founded your Chapter as well, a parody of >> the >> state religion of her own whorl. She was hardly more than a child, you >> understand, and the rest younger even than she." (ibid) >> >> There is your "parody". Typhon and his family were entrenched in the minds >> of the people of Urth because they had been forced upon the people of >> Urth, >> possibly in the form of the state religion. > No. I do not see how this can be at all. The text you are providing does > not map to your conclusion. Not at all. > > The child Cilinia could not have designed all the traditions of the > Chapter. No way. Typhon's committees did that on an ad hoc basis-- the same > way they put together the Writings. When Lemur say she "founded" the Chapter > and Viron and other cities, he is talking about a titular role--with little > more input than a suggestion here and there. That's why Lemur stipulates > that she was little more than a child. > > The state religion on Urth was real one- an established one analogous to > the Catholic Church...thus the similarities. Your explanation of the parody > leaves little room for parody. Nor does it explain how religions of other > cultures are also parodies of known world religions. For example, the parody > of Islam among the Trivigaunte does not require a male god for ultimate > devotion--everything is reversed from Islamic culture regarding male-female > relations. > > The reason Typhon and family are so ingrained in the minds of the Urthlings > is obvious from looking at the personality cults established by lesser > tyrants like Stalin and Saddam, and the obsession people have with their > royal families (ala the U.K.) > > > Whether or not worship of Typhon and his family was the state religion on > Urth, the fact remains that his family was entrenched in the minds of > people > put aboard the _Whorl_, and the only solution found to what was apparently > some sort of problem associated with that fact was to rename them. >> Renamed, >> they became gods in Mainframe. For the religion of Viron to be a parody of >> the state religion on Urth, the state religion on Urth must have been >> polytheistic, otherwise the solution would have generated more problems >> than >> the solution was intended to remedy. > Urth's state religion was not centered around the worship of Typhon and his > family. There's no evidence of a surviving cult of worship around Typhon in > Severian's day. There is no hint that the people the Conciliator encountered > viewed him that way. > > I don't think Wolfe the author was so constrained that the state religion > the Chapter parodied had to be polytheistic. Typhon only needed to have the > personalities of his family to be redrawn in caricature. The Typhonic family > was an issue, but the various religions (as I said, those of other cities > were vastly different) he didn't care about at all. He played with them > freely. > > If I were to carry what you are arguing to its logical end, then Typhon was > undermining his plan by having Echidna with snake hair and Scylla with > tentacles. And little Hierax as the god of death? Really? > > u+16b9 > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *14 Sep 2010, 16:44 · in reply to Jack Smith* > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:41 AM, Jack Smith wrote: > "I don't think Wolfe the author was so constrained that the state religion > the Chapter parodied had to be polytheistic. " > Yes. ?I've always taken the parody (of the state religion and of > Catholicism) to consist of such things as a celibate priesthood, celibate > nuns who teach children, confession, absolution, last rites, and the voided > cross. — The original religion does not have to have been polytheistic. However - since you have (correctly in my opinion) opened up the can-O-worms of parodied Catholicism - it might be argued that a polytheistic religion, where all the gods are members of the same family, could stand as a parody of the relations of the Holy Trinity in Catholicsm. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Roy C. Lackey *14 Sep 2010, 16:57 · in reply to Dave Tallman* > Dave Tallman wrote: > We ought to look at resemblances people really notice in the books and > see > what explanations are possible. > > 1) Silk mistakes his astral-travelling older self for Patera Pike. I don't accept the premise. Wolfe, in that List questionnaire, said that Pike on the stairs of the manse was a ghost. I see no reason to doubt him. > This was > in bad light and just a glimpse of the lower part of his face. > 2) Severian mistakes the astral-travelling Silk for Master Malrubius. This > is more troubling because Sev got a longer look and he has a > near-photographic memory. What scene do you mean? When Silkhorn scared the bejesus out of Gurloes (RTTW, 396)? Sev just said the bird belonged to Malrubius in an attempt to avoid being punished and Silkhorn obliged him by putting his hand on Gurloes' shoulder. Gurloes thought he was seeing a ghost when he turned around and saw the light-haired Silkhorn in what looked to be a guild cloak. (Silkhorn on that trip didn't look like Horn, he looked like a younger Silk than he did back on Blue [388].) Sev knew that Oreb had come there with Silkhorn; Oreb had been there when they went to the necropolis. -Roy --- ### Tim O'Donnell *14 Sep 2010, 17:03 · follows Roy C. Lackey* James Wynn wrote >> But the idea that Typhon was egotistically--let alone >> "manically"--obsessed with his face is simply not true based on his >> discussion with Severian in Sword of the Lictor. Keeping his original >> head, in the original case, was a practical issue: I have long suspected (with little evidence to be fair) that Typhon needed to keep his head/face/brain in order to be able to exercise his magic powers. These powers might survive cloning but perhaps his powers would not survive uploading into a chem or into mainframe. This would be a pretty practical reason to keep his head with the story of his face a cover so as not to hint at the real source of his power. --- ### James Wynn *14 Sep 2010, 17:22 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* >> Jack Smith - >> I've always taken the parody (of the state religion and of >> Catholicism) to consist of such things as a celibate priesthood, celibate >> nuns who teach children, confession, absolution, last rites, and the voided >> cross. The original religion does not have to have been polytheistic. > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes- However - since you have (correctly in my opinion) opened up the > can-O-worms of parodied Catholicism - it might be argued that a > polytheistic religion, where all the gods are members of the same > family, could stand as a parody of the relations of the Holy Trinity > in Catholicsm. Also, the veneration of the Holy Family and saints. All of these were all presented as evidence, by Islamic competitors, that 8th c Christianity was polytheistic. While there might have been some of that in there, mostly I think Wolfe found it most appealing to create a demonic version Greek mythology as well as tossing in some Etruscan rituals and forms and shunting the whole thing onto a gnostic foundation. u+16b9 --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *14 Sep 2010, 17:29 · in reply to James Wynn* > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 10:22 AM, James Wynn wrote: > While there might have been some of that in there, mostly I think Wolfe > found it most appealing to create a demonic version Greek mythology as well > as tossing in some Etruscan rituals and forms and shunting the whole thing > onto a gnostic foundation. I agree about Greek, and don't know much about Etruscan stuff, but take it from a Catholic: the rituals and forms of the Chapter are dead on parodies of Catholic forms and rituals. ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### James Wynn *14 Sep 2010, 17:36 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > On 9/14/2010 12:29 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 10:22 AM, James Wynn wrote: >> While there might have been some of that in there, mostly I think Wolfe >> found it most appealing to create a demonic version Greek mythology as well >> as tossing in some Etruscan rituals and forms and shunting the whole thing >> onto a gnostic foundation. > I agree about Greek, and don't know much about Etruscan stuff, but > take it from a Catholic: the rituals and forms of the Chapter are dead > on parodies of Catholic forms and rituals I agree. The shriving. The "sign of addition". It all says "Roman Catholic!" in all-caps. But "augur" and the practice of "augury" is from the Etruscan religions. "Sybil" is a Latin word, derived from the Greek. So it harkens back to pre-Christian Italy as well. Also the form of temples having holes in their ceilings. u+16b9 --- ### James Wynn *14 Sep 2010, 17:37 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > On 9/14/2010 11:57 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: > Dave Tallman wrote: > > We ought to look at resemblances people really notice in the books and > see > what explanations are possible. >> 1) Silk mistakes his astral-travelling older self for Patera Pike. > I don't accept the premise. Wolfe, in that List questionnaire, said that > Pike on the stairs of the manse was a ghost. I see no reason to doubt him. Me either. Here's the text: 4. /Was what Silk saw in the manteion Pike's ghost, or an aquastor, or what?/ -- It was seen in the manse, not the manteion; it wasn't machine made. 27. /Is Pike's ghost really Quetzal?/ -- No. I believe in an interview, he was asked if Pike's ghost were a "real ghost" and Wolfe replied that he was a "real ghost". The Rajan is not machine made. In fact, he is a genuine ghost in that he is a disembodied spirit of someone who has died -- Horn and Silk. But the figure of "Pike" vanishing in a "silver mist" simply does not imply a "gothic" ghost. Remember that when Wolfe was answering these questions no one had yet read "The Book of the Short Sun". Thumb through those volumes and note how many references you get to ghosts. The Rajan twice (at least) denies to Severian that he is a ghost. He also denies that he the spirit of a dead man. But we, the readers, know that denial is ironic. He has died twice...three times if you count the time Silk died in the pit. His spirit is out of his body. The only sense that Severian is wrong is in that he thinks they are ghosts like Catherine Earnshaw in "Wuthering Heights". Silk does seem to sort of encounter those types of ghosts in his dreams. Pikes ghost is just obviously a different sort. u+16b9 --- ### Roy C. Lackey *14 Sep 2010, 19:12 · in reply to James Wynn* > James Wynn wrote: > There are downsides to chem bodies as the Ayuntamiento discovered. Being > downloaded into a chem body might reasonably give Typhon no more actual > legal status than uploading his personality into a computer. Legal status!? What would an egotistical tyrant care about legal status? Was he going to be voted out of office or something? > There is no > evidence of fast-grown clones being an available option in any of the > novels. Thecla was just a few years older than Severian, yet her fully-grown khaibit was working in a whore house. Lest anyone misunderstand, I do not subscribe to clone theories in LS/SS. Not at all. I'm just pointing out a fact in NS. > The point remains that Typhon said he used the method he did for > practical reasons. Not egotistical ones. That is your view. It is not mine. [snip] > The *idea* of Typhon and his family could not be expunged. It is > unlikely that any people on Urth thought of him as a two-headed being. > He could not have been in that form long before he died. I agree with that much. [snip] > The child Cilinia could not have designed all the traditions of the > Chapter. No way. Typhon's committees did that on an ad hoc basis-- the > same way they put together the Writings. When Lemur say she "founded" > the Chapter and Viron and other cities, he is talking about a titular > role--with little more input than a suggestion here and there. That's > why Lemur stipulates that she was little more than a child. Regardless of who designed the traditions of Viron, the fact remains that the city, complete with its scores of manteions, was already built when the first people came aboard -- Marble was there at that time and said so; she was working as a maid at the Sun Street manteion. The Sacred Windows were up and running with Viron's Chapter in charge of daily operations in the manteions. And like it or not, the city's Charter was said to have been written by Scylla: "The Charter, eh? Written in-ah-deity by Scylla and corrected by Pas." (LAKE, chap. 7, 188) Thus, her role in the founding of Viron and its institutions was not just titular.That she was a girl of about thirteen at the time she was scanned is not my problem to explain; that's the way Wolfe wrote it. -Roy --- ### Lee Berman *14 Sep 2010, 19:31 · follows Roy C. Lackey* > Tim O'Donnell: I have long suspected (with little evidence to be fair) that Typhon needed > to keep his head/face/brain in order to be able to exercise his magic powers. These powers > might survive cloning but perhaps his powers would not survive uploading into a chem or into > mainframe. This would be a pretty practical reason to keep his head with the story of his > face a cover so as not to hint at the real source of his power. I find Typhon's superhuman powers of telepathy and clairvoyance to be quite significant (though most often glossed over in discussions of him). No other characters in BotNS that I can think of have similar powers. Maybe Tzadkiel, who seem to speak to Severian during a dream. I think the Mandragora's similar powers support your suggestion that Typhon's powers can be duplicated via cloning. (mythological Typhon being a man-dragon) --- ### James Wynn *14 Sep 2010, 20:34 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* >> James Wynn- >> There are downsides to chem bodies as the Ayuntamiento discovered. Being >> downloaded into a chem body might reasonably give Typhon no more actual >> legal status than uploading his personality into a computer. > Roy- > Legal status!? What would an egotistical tyrant care about legal status? Was > he going to be voted out of office or something? A tyrant must induce people to obey him. Would anyone obey a robot? Mamelta's attitude toward them makes me think the idea would be preposterous. Secular tyrants like Stalin and Saddam maintained total control even as thet killed and terrorized everyone around them. It's almost like magic act. Getting venal people work hard to set up a system with you yourself at the top is a subject that has always fanscinated historians. Xenophon was not the first. >> JW- There is no >> evidence of fast-grown clones being an available option in any of the >> novels. > Roy- Thecla was just a few years older than Severian, yet her fully-grown khaibit > was working in a whore house. Lest anyone misunderstand, I do not subscribe > to clone theories in LS/SS. Not at all. I'm just pointing out a fact in NS. And presumably she was implanted around the same time as Thecla. >> JW - The point remains that Typhon said he used the method he did for >> practical reasons. Not egotistical ones. > Roy - That is your view. It is not mine. Hmmm...We are talking about what Typhon _says_, right? I'd be curious to hear your alternate reading on what Typhon _says_ his reasons were: "My physicians, of whom I naturally had the best of many worlds, told me it might be possible for me to take a new body, their first thought being to enclose my brain in the skull previously occupied by another. You see the flaw in that?"[snip] The face would be lost, and it is the face that men are accustomed to obey!" I gather two relevant points here 1) Implanting his brain in a young body was an option for his doctors. 2)Typhon felt he had to keep his face because it was the face his subjects had grown "accustomed to obey". >> The child Cilinia could not have designed all the traditions of the >> Chapter. No way. Typhon's committees did that on an ad hoc basis-- the >> same way they put together the Writings. When Lemur say she "founded" >> the Chapter and Viron and other cities, he is talking about a titular >> role--with little more input than a suggestion here and there. That's >> why Lemur stipulates that she was little more than a child. > Regardless of who designed the traditions of Viron, the fact remains that > the city, complete with its scores of manteions, was already built when the > first people came aboard -- Marble was there at that time and said so; she > was working as a maid at the Sun Street manteion. The Sacred Windows were up > and running with Viron's Chapter in charge of daily operations in the > manteions. And like it or not, the city's Charter was said to have been > written by Scylla: "The Charter, eh? Written in-ah-deity by Scylla and > corrected by Pas." (LAKE, chap. 7, 188) Thus, her role in the founding of > Viron and its institutions was not just titular.That she was a girl of about > thirteen at the time she was scanned is not my problem to explain; that's > the way Wolfe wrote it. You need to read that text a little more carefully, Roy. What Remora says is: "The Charter, eh? Written in-ah-deity by Scylla and corrected by Pas. So it-um-asserts." Even Remora, retains skepticism regarding what the Charter says regarding its own history. But even then, what Remora and Lemur think about the founding of the Whorl should be taken with the same degree of skepticism: "So he asserts". And that's the way Wolfe wrote it. u+16b9 --- ### David Stockhoff *15 Sep 2010, 00:42 · in reply to James Wynn* Not to reintroduce last month's debate topic of whether Urth and the Whorl are in "our" future or not, and thus whether the Commonwealth's state religion was a decayed Catholicism, or something that might have arisen in a parallel universe from some universal desire for such a thing. But--- I am always struck by the way these trappings suggest that this is in fact what has happened---that this iteration is one without a "savior" and therefore with hollow versions of the "true religion." Especially the "sign of addition"---such a perfectly logical alternative explanation for making the sign of the cross. All these real roots seem to have been combined out of a yearning for Catholicism by people who could not have known it. Either that, or the religion was constructed by people seeking to imitate Catholicism without understanding it, like amateur archaeologists. Certainly there is evidence for that kind of deliberate, almost scientific syncretism. And on the Whorl, both explanations may be true. > On 9/14/2010 1:36 PM, James Wynn wrote: > On 9/14/2010 12:29 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: >> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 10:22 AM, James Wynn wrote: >>> While there might have been some of that in there, mostly I think Wolfe >>> found it most appealing to create a demonic version Greek mythology >>> as well >>> as tossing in some Etruscan rituals and forms and shunting the whole >>> thing >>> onto a gnostic foundation. >> I agree about Greek, and don't know much about Etruscan stuff, but >> take it from a Catholic: the rituals and forms of the Chapter are dead >> on parodies of Catholic forms and rituals > I agree. The shriving. The "sign of addition". It all says "Roman > Catholic!" in all-caps. But "augur" and the practice of "augury" is > from the Etruscan religions. "Sybil" is a Latin word, derived from the > Greek. So it harkens back to pre-Christian Italy as well. Also the > form of temples having holes in their ceilings. > > u+16b9 > _______________________________________________ --- ### Dave Tallman *15 Sep 2010, 01:49 · follows David Stockhoff* About the apparition of "Patera Pike" -- 1) Pike was old when he died. RttW p. 40 says he was about eighty. 2) The apparition is called "the old auger," which happens to fit the future Silk perfectly. 3) Wolfe in the Q+A session didn't ever say it was a real ghost. He said it wasn't machine generated and it wasn't Quetzal in disguise. That's all. If he was ever more definite in another interview I'd like to see the citation. Even if he was it could still fir Silk/Rajan. --- ### Roy C. Lackey *15 Sep 2010, 04:42 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > I agree about Greek, and don't know much about Etruscan stuff, but > take it from a Catholic: the rituals and forms of the Chapter are dead > on parodies of Catholic forms and rituals. Sure, it's easy to see that the religion of Viron is a parody of Catholicism. It it also easy to see how a parody could be made in a Hindu-based city like the one Gaon must have been based on. It is not so easy to see it in an Islam-based city like Trivigaunte. Lemur said that Viron's religion was a parody of the state religion on Urth, but that says nothing about the other couple-hundred cities on the _Whorl_. But what he said about Typhon and his family being deeply entrenched in the minds of people put aboard the ship does apply to all the other cities. Though the religion in Trivigaunte in Silk's day may have degenerated so far as to be all but beyond recognition, it cannot have been that way on Day One. What to do with 9+ gods in such a monotheistic religion? Did all the other gods just agree to step aside and let Sphigx have her way? -Roy --- ### Roy C. Lackey *15 Sep 2010, 04:44 · in reply to James Wynn* >>> James Wynn- >>> There are downsides to chem bodies as the Ayuntamiento discovered. Being >>> downloaded into a chem body might reasonably give Typhon no more actual >>> legal status than uploading his personality into a computer. >> Roy- >> Legal status!? What would an egotistical tyrant care about legal status? Was >> he going to be voted out of office or something? > A tyrant must induce people to obey him. Would anyone obey a robot? Obviously so. People obeyed Potto and Lemur and the fake Siyuf. People didn't know they were robots. >>> The child Cilinia could not have designed all the traditions of the >>> Chapter. No way. Typhon's committees did that on an ad hoc basis-- the >>> same way they put together the Writings. When Lemur say she "founded" >>> the Chapter and Viron and other cities, he is talking about a titular >>> role--with little more input than a suggestion here and there. That's >>> why Lemur stipulates that she was little more than a child. >> Regardless of who designed the traditions of Viron, the fact remains >> that >> the city, complete with its scores of manteions, was already built when >> the >> first people came aboard -- Marble was there at that time and said so; she >> was working as a maid at the Sun Street manteion. The Sacred Windows >> were up >> and running with Viron's Chapter in charge of daily operations in the >> manteions. And like it or not, the city's Charter was said to have been >> written by Scylla: "The Charter, eh? Written in-ah-deity by Scylla and >> corrected by Pas." (LAKE, chap. 7, 188) Thus, her role in the founding >> of >> Viron and its institutions was not just titular.That she was a girl of >> about >> thirteen at the time she was scanned is not my problem to explain; that's >> the way Wolfe wrote it. > You need to read that text a little more carefully, Roy. What Remora > says is: > > "The Charter, eh? Written in-ah-deity by Scylla and corrected by Pas. So > it-um-asserts." I did read the text carefully, James. That's why I wrote "the city's Charter was **said** to have been written by Scylla". > Even Remora, retains skepticism regarding what the Charter says > regarding its own history. > But even then, what Remora and Lemur think about the founding of the > Whorl should be taken with the same degree of skepticism: "So he > asserts". And that's the way Wolfe wrote it. Yes he did. And if you don't like it that Hoof described the astral Cilinia as looking like "a girl old enough to take care of other sprats but not old enough to get married" (RTTW, 347), or that Cilinia herself, while looking at her remains on Urth, said "I died young. It can't have been long after I was scanned for the _Whorl_." (392), you can claim that it was only Hoof who made the assertions and it doesn't mean what it seems to mean if it doesn't suit your notion of the founding of Viron or its Chapter or whatever point you really wanted to make. Look at your above assertions about what Cilinia could or could not have had to do with the founding of the Chapter, and that it was done by "Typhon's committees". Where did you get that? I stated what the text had to say about it, along with corroborative indications that the infrastructure for the Chapter was in place from the get-go. Which position merits more skepticism? -Roy --- ### Gerry Quinn *15 Sep 2010, 10:20 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" > I agree about Greek, and don't know much about Etruscan stuff, but > take it from a Catholic: the rituals and forms of the Chapter are dead > on parodies of Catholic forms and rituals. There are certainly some rituals and forms analogous to those of Catholicism, although I think it should not be exaggerated - Catholicism is not the only religion with hierarchies of male priests, for example. The 'Peace of Pas' does of course correspond closely to Last Rites, or Extreme Unction as it was once called, and is IMO the closest to a specifically Catholic ritual. But some Protestant denominations have Last Rites too, and the corresponding Jewish ritual does not seem so different. I think Wolfe would not think it strange to have a convergence of rituals - quite the opposite in fact. Indeed, I think he would say that rituals tend to be conserved across religions and cultures. For some hints as to this, consider Severian's discussion of the coin he was given by Vodalus, or the way hillmen children are washed in rivers after birth (Fifth Head of Cerberus, 2nd novella). The meanings of rituals and forms may be multiple and debatable, but the ritual is conserved. Could we even say: the Outsider's two or many voices, Pas's two heads, the Holy Trinity, even the pantheons of polytheism in general? Silk finds a connection between the Outsider and Pas's two heads, but to find a connection is not to prove a parody or a derivation of any sort. In short, I don't think we know enough about the state riligion of Urth in Typhon's time to identify it as Catholicism, though the sign of addition does indicate some Christian roots. (Elsewhere Quetzal mentions 'Ah Lah' as a forgotten god, and refers to a somewhat modified version of the story of Adam and Eve. And the Chrasmological Writings seem to take a pinch of everything in the line of religion and related philosophy.) - Gerry Quinn --- ### James Wynn *15 Sep 2010, 14:35 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* >> Me - >> A tyrant must induce people to obey him. Would anyone obey a robot? > Roy - > Obviously so. People obeyed Potto and Lemur and the fake Siyuf. People > didn't know they were robots. Typhon could not have prevented those closest to him from knowing that, and those are the ones he had to fear and control. While the Ayuntamiento had reasons to keep their chem-nature secret (more than they even realized), robots on Urth were robots. On the Whorl they were "chemical persons". >> Me- >> Even Remora, retains skepticism regarding what the Charter says >> regarding its own history. >> But even then, what Remora and Lemur think about the founding of the >> Whorl should be taken with the same degree of skepticism: "So he >> asserts". And that's the way Wolfe wrote it. > Roy- > Yes he did. And if you don't like it that Hoof described the astral Cilinia > as looking like "a girl old enough to take care of other sprats but not old > enough to get married" (RTTW, 347), or that Cilinia herself, while looking > at her remains on Urth, said "I died young. It can't have been long after I > was scanned for the _Whorl_." (392), you can claim that it was only Hoof who > made the assertions and it doesn't mean what it seems to mean if it doesn't > suit your notion of the founding of Viron or its Chapter or whatever point > you really wanted to make. Sigh. Roy, Roy, Roy. Do not pretend you do not understand the difference between hearsay and first hand information. > Roy- > Look at your above assertions about what Cilinia could or could not have had > to do with the founding of the Chapter, and that it was done by "Typhon's > committees". Where did you get that? From an interview I recalled with Wolfe where he discussed how the Writings were put together. But, mainly, Typhon didn't strike me as a big reader. > Roy- > I stated what the text had to say about > it, along with corroborative indications that the infrastructure for the > Chapter was in place from the get-go. > Which position merits more skepticism? Correction: You stated what *Remora* said the Charter said about it. You can't just say "the text says". Context is key. What I'm saying is that I'm as skeptical about what the Charter says about itself as Remora seems to be. But you are right that typically in a Wolfe novel, when someone says something emphatically or expresses skepticism about something then the opposite is true. (Oh. Wait. You didn't say that. That's what _I_ say.) So maybe Remora's skepticism is proof that along with all her other activities betraying humanity to aliens, Cilinia was in the playroom designing the laws, streets & buildings, and religious ordinances of Viron and _many other cities as well_. Or maybe it was the Mainframe effigies of Pas and Scylla who did that. After all, that is _precisely_ what the "text says". u+16b9 --- ### James Wynn *15 Sep 2010, 14:59 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > It is not so > easy to see it in an Islam-based city like Trivigaunte. Lemur said that > Viron's religion was a parody of the state religion on Urth, but that says > nothing about the other couple-hundred cities on the _Whorl_. But what he > said about Typhon and his family being deeply entrenched in the minds of > people put aboard the ship does apply to all the other cities. > Though the religion in Trivigaunte in Silk's day may have degenerated so far > as to be all but beyond recognition, it cannot have been that way on Day > One. What to do with 9+ gods in such a monotheistic religion? Did all the > other gods just agree to step aside and let Sphigx have her way? The concept of monotheism as a central doctrinal signifier was foundational to Islam from the beginning. "There is no god by God" is the first doctrinal tenant of a Muslim. As for how such a practice could arise, there are at least two possibilities. 1) The memory monotheism was so ingrained in the minds of original the Islamic citizens of Trivigaunte that they naturally returned to that belief immediately. 2) The scientists recognized in advance that monotheism was so deeply ingrained as designed the city's religion around it. Either way, it seems unlikely that Lemur's knowledge was comprehensive regarding the cultural/political situation on Urth and the requirements of the Whorl's design. As for why the other gods did not compete for worshipers there: Apparently, there are ways to summon and avoid summoning gods. Quetzal managed to completely avoid having any gods appear in Viron after the death of Pas and Tussah. I guess forbidding child sacrifice was one way, but I imagine there could be others. Presumably, the Trivigaunte were only interested in attracting the interest of Sphigx. They might well have been quite adept at it. u+16b9 --- ### James Wynn *15 Sep 2010, 18:17 · in reply to Dave Tallman* At the end of RttW Oreb says "Good Fishing". This statement as odd on a number of levels, of course, but one way that it did is that it felt like a FAIL regarding Oreb's characteristic powers of speech. Only two words, fine, but THREE syllables. But I figured, well, it's Wolfe's story. However, while rereading interviews yesterday I came across this statement by Wolfe: http://www.sfsite.com/03b/gw124.htm Wolfe: "Of course all of us speak differently to different audiences. Auk talks like I do when I'm talking to the dogs. Almost no one seems to notice how Oreb talks, but _Oreb can manage only two syllables_: 'Good bird! Watch out! Bad boy. Iron girl. Good Silk!' " I don't know what it signifies, but based on what Wolfe says, it ought to mean something. u+16b9 --- ### Gwern Branwen *15 Sep 2010, 18:48 · in reply to James Wynn* > On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 2:17 PM, James Wynn wrote: > ?At the end of RttW Oreb says "Good Fishing". > This statement as odd on a number of levels, of course, but one way that it > did is that it felt like a FAIL regarding Oreb's characteristic powers of > speech. Only two words, fine, but THREE syllables. But ?I figured, well, > it's Wolfe's story. > > However, while rereading interviews yesterday I came across this statement > by Wolfe: > > http://www.sfsite.com/03b/gw124.htm > > Wolfe: "Of course all of us speak differently to different audiences. Auk > talks like I do when I'm talking to the dogs. Almost no one seems to notice > how Oreb talks, but _Oreb can manage only two syllables_: 'Good bird! Watch > out! Bad boy. Iron girl. Good Silk!' " > > I don't know what it signifies, but based on what Wolfe says, it ought to > mean something. Doesn't that quote mean that nothing odd is going on (beyond the obvious Gospel allusion or whatever)? "Iron girl" is 3 syllables by my count, as is "good fishing". ``` gwern ``` --- ### James Wynn *15 Sep 2010, 18:53 · in reply to Gwern Branwen* > On 9/15/2010 1:48 PM, Gwern Branwen wrote: > Doesn't that quote mean that nothing odd is going on (beyond the > obvious Gospel allusion or whatever)? > > "Iron girl" is 3 syllables by my count, as is "good fishing". "Iron girl" is two syllables if you have a Texas accent. u+16b9 --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *15 Sep 2010, 18:54 · in reply to Gwern Branwen* > On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 11:48 AM, Gwern Branwen wrote: > "Iron girl" is 3 syllables by my count, as is "good fishing". Given Wolfe's geographical history, he probably pronounces "iron" as one syllable: "eyrn." ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### Roy C. Lackey *15 Sep 2010, 19:14 · in reply to James Wynn* >> James Wynn quoted and wrote: >> It is not so >> easy to see it in an Islam-based city like Trivigaunte. Lemur said that >> Viron's religion was a parody of the state religion on Urth, but that >> says >> nothing about the other couple-hundred cities on the _Whorl_. But what >> he >> said about Typhon and his family being deeply entrenched in the minds of >> people put aboard the ship does apply to all the other cities. >> Though the religion in Trivigaunte in Silk's day may have degenerated so >> far >> as to be all but beyond recognition, it cannot have been that way on Day >> One. What to do with 9+ gods in such a monotheistic religion? Did all >> the >> other gods just agree to step aside and let Sphigx have her way? > The concept of monotheism as a central doctrinal signifier was > foundational to Islam from the beginning. "There is no god by God" is > the first doctrinal tenant of a Muslim. > > As for how such a practice could arise, there are at least two > possibilities. 1) The memory monotheism was so ingrained in the minds of > original the Islamic citizens of Trivigaunte that they naturally > returned to that belief immediately. 2) The scientists recognized in > advance that monotheism was so deeply ingrained as designed the city's > religion around it. > Either way, it seems unlikely that Lemur's knowledge was comprehensive > regarding the cultural/political situation on Urth and the requirements > of the Whorl's design. Both of those possibilities ignore my point. I'll say it again. If memories of Typhon and his family were too deeply entrenched in the minds of people put aboard the _Whorl_ to be eliminated, how could/would they have initially manifested themselves in a monotheistic religion like Islam? Either the memories of the Nine were there on Day One or they weren't. > As for why the other gods did not compete for worshipers there: > Apparently, there are ways to summon and avoid summoning gods. Quetzal > managed to completely avoid having any gods appear in Viron after the > death of Pas and Tussah. I guess forbidding child sacrifice was one way, > but I imagine there could be others. Presumably, the Trivigaunte were > only interested in attracting the interest of Sphigx. They might well > have been quite adept at it. Quetzal could not control the gods. No sacrifice of any kind was required for the manifestation of a god, as Kypris coming to the glass at Orchid's and to the glass on the airship proves. -Roy --- ### Roy C. Lackey *15 Sep 2010, 19:17 · in reply to James Wynn* >> James Wynn quoted and wrote: >> Roy- >> Look at your above assertions about what Cilinia could or could not have >> had >> to do with the founding of the Chapter, and that it was done by >> "Typhon's >> committees". Where did you get that? > From an interview I recalled with Wolfe where he discussed how the > Writings were put together. But, mainly, Typhon didn't strike me as a > big reader. >> Roy- >> I stated what the text had to say about >> it, along with corroborative indications that the infrastructure for the >> Chapter was in place from the get-go. >> Which position merits more skepticism? > Correction: You stated what *Remora* said the Charter said about it. You > can't just say "the text says". Context is key. Yes it is, James. You seem to be confusing Chapter and Charter. Look back at what I wrote. You broke up my paragraph, which is perfectly okay, but the antecedent for the pronoun "it" in the second half of the paragraph is in the first half of the paragraph, i.e., the founding of the Chapter. The Remora quote had to do with the Charter, but the earlier quote about the founding of the Chapter was from Lemur. -Roy --- ### Jack Smith *15 Sep 2010, 19:19 · in reply to James Wynn* You're right about Oreb only using one-syllable words. Perhaps the two-syllable "fishing" implies some sort of development in our feathered friend. Oreb is limited in speech but not in understanding. At one point the story shifts to Oreb's point of view. He dines on the face of the dead Dace, and then reflects: "The dead one had been good. There could be no doubt about that. Friendly in the reserved fashion Oreb preferred alive, and delicious, dead." (Calde, Ch. 6) Wolfe's humor is like Faulkner's in *As I Lay Dying.* > On Wed, Sep 15, 2010 at 2:17 PM, James Wynn wrote: > At the end of RttW Oreb says "Good Fishing". > This statement as odd on a number of levels, of course, but one way that it > did is that it felt like a FAIL regarding Oreb's characteristic powers of > speech. Only two words, fine, but THREE syllables. But I figured, well, > it's Wolfe's story. > > However, while rereading interviews yesterday I came across this statement > by Wolfe: > > http://www.sfsite.com/03b/gw124.htm > > Wolfe: "Of course all of us speak differently to different audiences. Auk > talks like I do when I'm talking to the dogs. Almost no one seems to notice > how Oreb talks, but _Oreb can manage only two syllables_: 'Good bird! Watch > out! Bad boy. Iron girl. Good Silk!' " > > I don't know what it signifies, but based on what Wolfe says, it ought to > mean something. > > u+16b9 > _______________________________________________ --- ### James Wynn *15 Sep 2010, 20:39 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* I'll recombine two threads here... > Roy - > Both of those possibilities ignore my point. I'll say it again. If memories > of Typhon and his family were too deeply entrenched in the minds of people > put aboard the _Whorl_ to be eliminated, how could/would they have initially > manifested themselves in a monotheistic religion like Islam? Either the > memories of the Nine were there on Day One or they weren't. But, Roy, the citizens of Trivigaunted were not _unaware _of the other gods. They merely only honored Sphigx. So their memories of the Typhonic family was dealt with by their _knowledge_ of the rest of Pas' family.And of course, expunging the memory of Typhon's family was not even an issue for subsequent generations. >> Me - >> As for why the other gods did not compete for worshipers there: >> Apparently, there are ways to summon and avoid summoning gods. Quetzal >> managed to completely avoid having any gods appear in Viron after the >> death of Pas and Tussah. I guess forbidding child sacrifice was one way, >> but I imagine there could be others. Presumably, the Trivigaunte were >> only interested in attracting the interest of Sphigx. They might well >> have been quite adept at it. > Roy - > Quetzal could not control the gods. No sacrifice of any kind was required > for the manifestation of a god, as Kypris coming to the glass at Orchid's > and to the glass on the airship proves. Not entirely. But Quetzal believed he could _affect_ the occurrence of theophanies, or at least he said he believed he could: "Before Kypris manifested here on Scylsday, the Windows of our city had been empty for decades. I can't take credit for that, it wasn't my doing. But I've done everything in my power to prevent theophanies. It hasn't been much, but I've done what I could. I proscribed human sacrifice, and got made law, for one thing. I admit I'm proud of that." [Epiphany of the Long Sun, page 124] "I'm in contact with religious leaders in Urbs, Wick, and other cities, cities where his children have boasted of killing Pas." [p 131] "Now you see why I've tried to prevent theophanies, don't you, Patera Calde?" [page 132] Quetzal implies that there were other factors affecting the lack of theophanies in Viron. > Yes it is, James. You seem to be confusing Chapter and Charter. Look back at > what I wrote. You broke up my paragraph, which is perfectly okay, but the > antecedent for the pronoun "it" in the second half of the paragraph is in > the first half of the paragraph, i.e., the founding of the Chapter. The > Remora quote had to do with the Charter, but the earlier quote about the > founding of the Chapter was from Lemur. I supposed I lost track of which you were arguing for at that moment. But the dubiousness regarding what the Charter says about it's founding and what version Lemur has heard or extrapolated on what he has heard about the founding of the Chapter are identical. If it is dubious that Cilinia wrote the Charter for Viron and all the other cities that Scylla was credited for founding, then it is equally dubious that she designed the formalities of the Chapter. We're told what Lemur told Silk--to mock and belittle Silk's piety. We're also told lots of other things about the Whorl with which we can judge how much to credit what he says. I think we've gone off track, though. Who cares if Cilinia was a child prodigy who designed multiple governments, cities, and religions in detail? I don't think any of this matters as to whether there was a polytheistic, state religion of Urth centered around Typhon's family. And I don't see much to support yet that there was. The religion that the Chapter was an evil parody of was surely Roman Catholicism (or a Briahtic analog). And that's why Silk was "a good man in a bad religion" as Wolfe called it...as bad a religion as Wolfe was inclined to imagine. u+16b9 --- ### Adam Thornton IO *15 Sep 2010, 21:05 · in reply to James Wynn* > On Wed, 15 Sep 2010 13:17:29 -0500, James Wynn wrote: > At the end of RttW Oreb says "Good Fishing". > This statement as odd on a number of levels, of course, but one way that > it did is that it felt like a FAIL regarding Oreb's characteristic > powers of speech. Only two words, fine, but THREE syllables. But I > figured, well, it's Wolfe's story. > > However, while rereading interviews yesterday I came across this > statement by Wolfe: > > http://www.sfsite.com/03b/gw124.htm > > Wolfe: "Of course all of us speak differently to different audiences. > Auk talks like I do when I'm talking to the dogs. Almost no one seems to > notice how Oreb talks, but _Oreb can manage only two syllables_: 'Good > bird! Watch out! Bad boy. Iron girl. Good Silk!' " > > I don't know what it signifies, but based on what Wolfe says, it ought > to mean something. Quite apart from _Orphans of the Sky_, I'm pretty sure that it's the Outsider speaking through Oreb to his Fisher of Men. Adam --- ### Mr Thalassocrat *15 Sep 2010, 21:55 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 4:44 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: > > If memories > of Typhon and his family were too deeply entrenched in the minds of people > put aboard the _Whorl_ to be eliminated, how could/would they have > initially > manifested themselves in a monotheistic religion like Islam? Either the > memories of the Nine were there on Day One or they weren't. On my hypothesis, the Triv culture on the Whorl was an artificial construct, so Islam needn't figure into at all. (Hopefully I'm not missing the point here!) As to how the Whorl-dwellers were "converted", it's worth recalling Auk's meeting with Tartaros in the tunnels (Calde Ch.6). It happens at the "oldest altar", of which Tartaros says: "When the first people came here, Auk, they were shown how we desired to be worshipped. Soon, they were made to forget. They did, but because they had seen what they had seeen, a part of them remebered, and when they found our altars on the inner surface, they sacrificed as we had taught them. First of all, here." --- ### Roy C. Lackey *16 Sep 2010, 04:41 · in reply to Dave Tallman* > Dave Tallman wrote: > About the apparition of "Patera Pike" -- > 1) Pike was old when he died. RttW p. 40 says he was about eighty. > 2) The apparition is called "the old auger," which happens to fit the > future > Silk perfectly. > 3) Wolfe in the Q+A session didn't ever say it was a real ghost. He said > it > wasn't machine generated and it wasn't Quetzal in disguise. That's all. If > he was ever more definite in another interview I'd like to see the > citation. > Even if he was it could still fir Silk/Rajan. It has long been my belief that Wolfe said Pike in the manse was a ghost, and I know I'm not the only one with that impression. If he didn't state so expressly elsewhere, this is the best I can do to reconstruct the belief. At the time of the Q&A, the SS concept of astral travel was unknown to us. Given the way the first Pike question was phrased, when Wolfe's answer eliminated an aquastor and the answer to the second Pike question eliminated Quetzal, a ghost was what was left. Sorry, but that's the best I can come up with. -Roy --- ### Jerry Friedman *16 Sep 2010, 05:27 · in reply to James Wynn* > From: James Wynn > At the end of RttW Oreb says "Good Fishing". ... Sorry, where does he say that? In a quick look, I could only find where Daisy writes it five times at the very end of the book. Jerry Friedman --- ### James Wynn *16 Sep 2010, 14:29 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* : >> Dave Tallman - >> 3) Wolfe in the Q+A session didn't ever say it was a real ghost. >> He said it wasn't machine generated and it wasn't Quetzal in >> disguise. That's all. If he was ever more definite in another >> interview I'd like to see the citation. Even if he was it >> could still fir Silk/Rajan. > Roy - > It has long been my belief that Wolfe said Pike in the manse was a ghost, > and I know I'm not the only one with that impression. If he didn't state so > expressly elsewhere, this is the best I can do to reconstruct the belief. At > the time of the Q&A, the SS concept of astral travel was unknown to us. > Given the way the first Pike question was phrased, when Wolfe's answer > eliminated an aquastor and the answer to the second Pike question eliminated > Quetzal, a ghost was what was left. Sorry, but that's the best I can come up > with. I do remember -or imagine I remember- an interview in which someone tried to pin Wolfe down about Pike's ghost. As I remember it, they asked was Pike's ghost a real ghost or what and Wolfe replied "It was a real ghost." But I cannot find that interview by googling. Given that, perhaps we should accept, for the sake of argument, it that it he never said it. If we accept that Wolfe only said "It was not machine-made" it seriously under-cuts the assessment that it was a Gothic ghost, IMO. Because that is a very occult response. But even if he DID say it, it is still obvious to me that "real" or not, it was not a Gothic ghost. Only Terry Pratchet or Robert Asprin would write a scene that way with an old-fashioned ghost. u+16b9 --- ### Jack Smith *16 Sep 2010, 16:03 · in reply to James Wynn* "The Wolfean Oracle Speaks" An interview by Michael Andre-Driussi: 4. Was what Silk saw in the manteion Pike's ghost, or an aquastor, or what? -- It was seen in the manse, not the manteion; it wasn't machine made. [DRL: See question 27.] 27. Is Pike's ghost really Quetzal? -- No. [DRL: Which blandly leaves the possibility that the `ghost' might still be another of the alien inhumi.... See question 4; also, below.] I don't have the date of this interview or where it was conducted. > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 10:29 AM, James Wynn wrote: > : >> Dave Tallman - >>> 3) Wolfe in the Q+A session didn't ever say it was a real ghost. >>> He said it wasn't machine generated and it wasn't Quetzal in >>> disguise. That's all. If he was ever more definite in another >>> interview I'd like to see the citation. Even if he was it >>> could still fir Silk/Rajan. >> Roy - >> >> It has long been my belief that Wolfe said Pike in the manse was a ghost, >> and I know I'm not the only one with that impression. If he didn't state >> so >> expressly elsewhere, this is the best I can do to reconstruct the belief. >> At >> the time of the Q&A, the SS concept of astral travel was unknown to us. >> Given the way the first Pike question was phrased, when Wolfe's answer >> eliminated an aquastor and the answer to the second Pike question >> eliminated >> Quetzal, a ghost was what was left. Sorry, but that's the best I can come >> up >> with. > I do remember -or imagine I remember- an interview in which someone tried > to pin Wolfe down about Pike's ghost. As I remember it, they asked was > Pike's ghost a real ghost or what and Wolfe replied "It was a real ghost." > But I cannot find that interview by googling. Given that, perhaps we should > accept, for the sake of argument, it that it he never said it. If we accept > that Wolfe only said "It was not machine-made" it seriously under-cuts the > assessment that it was a Gothic ghost, IMO. Because that is a very occult > response. > > But even if he DID say it, it is still obvious to me that "real" or not, it > was not a Gothic ghost. Only Terry Pratchet or Robert Asprin would write a > scene that way with an old-fashioned ghost. > > u+16b9 > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### James Wynn *16 Sep 2010, 18:51 · in reply to Jack Smith* Jack, the title is misleading. It was not an interview performed by Mantis. He only acted as a go between for members of this List asking questions about the Book of the Long Sun. The sources are not very easy to find by searching the Urth.net archives so I'll post them here: Mantis announces Wolfe's agreement to the Q&A: http://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0005/0258.shtml Q&A 1 http://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0006/0350.shtml Q&A 2 http://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0511.shtml > "The Wolfean Oracle Speaks" > > An interview by Michael Andre-Driussi: > > 4. Was what Silk saw in the manteion Pike's ghost, or an aquastor, or > what? -- It was seen in the manse, not the manteion; it wasn't machine > made. [DRL: See question 27.] > > 27. Is Pike's ghost really Quetzal? -- No. [DRL: Which blandly leaves > the possibility that the `ghost' might still be another of the alien > inhumi.... See question 4; also, below.] > > I don't have the date of this interview or where it was conducted. > -- > Best wishes, > Jack --- ### Roy C. Lackey *16 Sep 2010, 19:30 · in reply to Mr Thalassocrat* > Andrew wrote: > As to how the Whorl-dwellers were "converted", it's worth recalling Auk's > meeting with Tartaros in the tunnels (Calde Ch.6). It happens at the > "oldest > altar", of which Tartaros says: "When the first people came here, Auk, > they > were shown how we desired to be worshipped. Soon, they were made to > forget. > They did, but because they had seen what they had seeen, a part of them > remembered, and when they found our altars on the inner surface, they > sacrificed as we had taught them. First of all, here." That quote doesn't make sense. I wonder if it's tied to what Lemur said about entrenched memories of Typhon and his family being too deep to eliminate, so the Nine were renamed. Let's parse the Tartaros quote. At first glance, the first sentence seems straightforward enough, but then you have to wonder what the first people were doing down in the tunnels. The area with the altar and a Window was wider than the tunnels that led to it, but it's unclear just how large the area was. The chamber was not too far from the Pit. So was it some sort of orientation center for new arrivals who had just been brought up to the ship in landers? Even if that is so, why were they then made to forget what they had been taught? Is this where Lemur's comments come in? Maybe I better give that quote again: "The surgeons found, however, that their patients' memories of their ruler, his family, and some of his officials were too deeply entrenched to be eliminated altogether. To obscure the record, they renamed them. Their ruler, the man who called himself the monarch, became Pas, the shrew he had married Echidna, and so on." Now to the third sentence of the Tartaros quote. After being made to forget how to worship properly, complete with sacrifices, when the first people saw the altars set up in the cities that had been built for them, they went back to worshipping as they had been taught, complete with sacrifices. What had changed? I really have no vested interest one way or the other in the notion that Typhon and his family had been worshipped on Urth, so if anyone has a better explanation for Tartaros' statement, I'd like to see it. And that is not a challenge. BTW, while it is true that there is no evidence in the Urth Cycle that Typhon and his family had been worshipped back on Urth, neither is there any evidence that Catholicism or some approximation thereof had been practiced in Typhon's time. -Roy --- ### James Wynn *16 Sep 2010, 20:25 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > On 9/16/2010 2:30 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: > Andrew wrote: >> "When the first people came here, Auk, they were shown how we desired >> to be worshipped. Soon, they were made to forget. They did, but because >> they had seen what they had seeen, a part of them remebered, and when >> they found our altars on the inner surface, they sacrificed as we had >> taught them. First of all, here." > Roy- > That quote doesn't make sense. I wonder if it's tied to what Lemur said > about entrenched memories of Typhon and his family being too deep to > eliminate, so the Nine were renamed. Let's parse the Tartaros quote. > > At first glance, the first sentence seems straightforward enough, but then > you have to wonder what the first people were doing down in the tunnels. The > area with the altar and a Window was wider than the tunnels that led to it, > but it's unclear just how large the area was. The chamber was not too far > from the Pit. So was it some sort of orientation center for new arrivals who > had just been brought up to the ship in landers? Let me take a shot at it. 1) I would suppose that when Tautaros says "when the first people came here" he means "came to the Whorl generally". 2) As they traveled deeper into the Whorl from the outside, they encountered Tautaros' altars first because they were closer to the outside. Based on their training, they knew what to do when they encountered an alter. If they had no animals to sacrifice, they chose one of their fellow colonists. 3) Presumably, when Taurtaros says "First of all, here" he is only talking to Auk specifically about the Vironese colonists, but the principle would be the same in other cities. > Roy - > Even if that is so, why were they then made to forget what they had been > taught? Is this where Lemur's comments come in? Maybe I better give that > quote again: "The surgeons found, however, that their patients' memories of > their ruler, his family, and some of his officials were too deeply > entrenched to be eliminated altogether. To obscure the record, they renamed > them. Their ruler, the man who called himself the monarch, became Pas, the > shrew he had married Echidna, and so on." > > Now to the third sentence of the Tartaros quote. After being made to forget > how to worship properly, complete with sacrifices, when the first people saw > the altars set up in the cities that had been built for them, they went back > to worshipping as they had been taught, complete with sacrifices. What had > changed? I _think_ you are misinterpreting what Tartaros is saying here. I don't take this to mean they were made to forget specifically what they were taught about worship. They were taught how to worship just before the memory wiping specifically so they _would_ remember it right after the procedure. What they forgot--at least to some degree-- was what they did before. This seems to me to imply that the memory tinkering was not a purely medical process. Memory wiping was medical. But to implant altered knowledge and memories, you had to teach it to them before the mind wiping. What's in short term memory survives. > Roy- > I really have no vested interest one way or the other in the notion that > Typhon and his family had been worshipped on Urth, so if anyone has a better > explanation for Tartaros' statement, I'd like to see it. And that is not a > challenge. > > BTW, while it is true that there is no evidence in the Urth Cycle that > Typhon and his family had been worshipped back on Urth, neither is there > any evidence that Catholicism or some approximation thereof had been > practiced in Typhon's time. Aren't the many close analogs between the Chapter and Roman Catholicism evidence of this? If Lemur is entirely correct that the Chapter was a parody of the state religion of Urth, then that religion is likely to have been something like Roman Catholicism. It is clear that the Gospels have survived to Typhon's time and been incorporated into the Writings because Silk refers to the event of Jesus casting out the money changers. "The sellers never extended a single bit's credit, true. They gave credit to no augur, and certainly they would not extend it to an augur whose manteion stood in the poorest quarter of the city. Yet the Outsider could not be denied, so they would have to. He would have to be firm with them, extremely firm. Remind them that the Outsider was known to esteem them last among men already that according to the Writings he had once (having possessed and enlightened a fortunate man) beaten them severely in person."[Nightside, page 17] But it is also possible that Lemur's knowledge was inaccurate in some ways. A skeptic like Lemur in Trivigaunte might say the same about the religion there and have been *just* as accurate/inaccurate. Both RC and Islam *have* been state religions at certain times in history. u+16b9 --- ### DAVID STOCKHOFF *16 Sep 2010, 21:23 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* In fact, if one wants to take the fact that Wolfe modeled the Commonwealth on Byzantium (with the Korean War thrown in for local color) to its logical conclusion, the period before the Autarchs would necessarily be characterized by paganism, animal sacrifice, and a state religion centered on the ruler. --- On Thu, 9/16/10, Roy C. Lackey wrote: I really have no vested interest one way or the other in the notion that Typhon and his family had been worshipped on Urth, so if anyone has a better explanation for Tartaros' statement, I'd like to see it. And that is not a challenge. BTW, while it is true that there is no evidence in the Urth Cycle that Typhon and his family had been worshipped? back on Urth, neither is there any evidence that Catholicism or some approximation thereof had been practiced in Typhon's time. -Roy --- ### Mr Thalassocrat *16 Sep 2010, 21:32 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > On Fri, Sep 17, 2010 at 5:00 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: > Andrew wrote: >> As to how the Whorl-dwellers were "converted", it's worth recalling Auk's >> meeting with Tartaros in the tunnels (Calde Ch.6). It happens at the >> "oldest >> altar", of which Tartaros says: "When the first people came here, Auk, >> they >> were shown how we desired to be worshipped. Soon, they were made to >> forget. >> They did, but because they had seen what they had seeen, a part of them >> remembered, and when they found our altars on the inner surface, they >> sacrificed as we had taught them. First of all, here." > That quote doesn't make sense. I wonder if it's tied to what Lemur said > about entrenched memories of Typhon and his family being too deep to > eliminate, so the Nine were renamed. Let's parse the Tartaros quote. > > At first glance, the first sentence seems straightforward enough, but then > you have to wonder what the first people were doing down in the tunnels. > The > area with the altar and a Window was wider than the tunnels that led to it, > but it's unclear just how large the area was. The chamber was not too far > from the Pit. So was it some sort of orientation center for new arrivals > who > had just been brought up to the ship in landers? That's my guess. > Even if that is so, why were they then made to forget what they had been > taught? I read it as "made to forget in general": their memories were wiped to a large extent. > Is this where Lemur's comments come in? Maybe I better give that > quote again: "The surgeons found, however, that their patients' memories of > their ruler, his family, and some of his officials were too deeply > entrenched to be eliminated altogether. To obscure the record, they renamed > them. Their ruler, the man who called himself the monarch, became Pas, the > shrew he had married Echidna, and so on." The memories of Typhon et al went too deep for this wipe to eradicate them, and so they were used to construct the Whorl pantheon. > Now to the third sentence of the Tartaros quote. After being made to forget > how to worship properly, complete with sacrifices, when the first people > saw > the altars set up in the cities that had been built for them, they went > back > to worshipping as they had been taught, complete with sacrifices. What had > changed? Well, the worship they had been taught in the "orientation area", which had been attached to their deep memories of Typhon et al & so survived the wipe. > I really have no vested interest one way or the other in the notion that > Typhon and his family had been worshipped on Urth, so if anyone has a > better > explanation for Tartaros' statement, I'd like to see it. And that is not a > challenge. > > BTW, while it is true that there is no evidence in the Urth Cycle that > Typhon and his family had been worshipped back on Urth, neither is there > any evidence that Catholicism or some approximation thereof had been > practiced in Typhon's time. > > Here from memory is my list of the little we know about religion on Urth in Typhon's day (probably incomplete, possibly incorrect): - The peasants Sev and young Gunnie encounter immediately upon their return from Yesod sacrifice to "sky powers" in high places. - The term "Increate" is used, which I think implies at least a top-dog creator God, if not actual monotheism, possibly just amongst the educated classes. - The saint-name naming convention is in place already, which is meaningful here to the extent that the names given in the text aren't just a translation artifect. - If the St Catherine story comes down to BOTNS time from Typhon's time, then there is some reason to suppose that the names may actually be "our" saints' names. It seems to be the same as "our" St Catherine's story, complete with "our" Emperor Maxentius. I don't think there's enough info to draw firm conclusions. Every reference to "our" religions on the Whorl could be an artifiact of the Whorl cultrual-construction team. Taking Whorlish religions as "parodies of the Urth state religion" doesn't tell us much. For example, Catholic ritual etc elements in the Vironese worship can be seen as elements inserted by the Whorl team to mess up a polytheistic original; or as part of a "state religion" messed up by a polytheistic religion created by the team. --- ### James Wynn *16 Sep 2010, 21:51 · in reply to Mr Thalassocrat* > Roy- > Now to the third sentence of the Tartaros quote. After being made > to forget > how to worship properly, complete with sacrifices, when the first > people saw > the altars set up in the cities that had been built for them, they > went back > to worshipping as they had been taught, complete with sacrifices. > What had > changed? > > Mr Thalassocrat wrote- > Well, the worship they had been taught in the "orientation area", > which had been attached to their deep memories of Typhon et al & so > survived the wipe. Something a little remarkable is implied here, I think. Had Typhon had his druthers --Lemur believes-- the colonists would have had no memory of him or his family. The system of gods ruling the Cargo on the Whorl is a workaround. "They will remember us no matter what we do, so we will distort their memory of us". This is contrary to our typical view of Typhon's egotism. Perhaps, if they remembered the Typhons, they would remember the rest of their lives on Urth and their lot aboard the Whorl. Perhaps, the concern was that if they retained their memories, then they not be content to remain as cargo and join forces to take over the ship. Keep them confused so they could be controlled. u+16b9 --- ### Andrew Mason *16 Sep 2010, 22:09 · follows James Wynn* James Wynn wrote (quoting Roy Lackey): >> BTW, while it is true that there is no evidence in the Urth Cycle that >> Typhon and his family had been worshipped “back on Urth, neither is there >> any evidence that Catholicism or some approximation thereof had been >> practiced in Typhon's time. > Aren't the many close analogs between the Chapter and Roman Catholicism > evidence of this” If Lemur is entirely correct that the Chapter was a > parody of the state religion of Urth, then that religion is likely to > have been something like Roman Catholicism. It is clear that the Gospels > have survived to Typhon's time and been incorporated into the Writings > because Silk refers to the event of Jesus casting out the money changers. Consider the religion of Urth a thousand years later. It seems to contain reminiscences of Catholicism (or at least of some form of Christianity which makes much of ritual); names of saints like Katharine and Barbara, crosses (Dorcas refers to roods, and there's the landmark Ctesiphon's Cross), a paschal candle. True, it also seems to contain elements derived from Hinduism, and in any case it's been overlaid by the cult of the Conciliator and the New Sun, but it's likely that some elements in it go back further than that. (As I mentioned in another thread, this need not be seen as a direct survival from our time; it can bepart of the cultural memory returned to humans by machines, as recounted by Cyriaca.) Also. Severian dreams of a ritual taking place in the Citadel chapel at a time before the old sun was darkened, which invoves bread, wine and a knife - not exactly the Christian eucharist, but something like it. --- ### Matthew Weber *16 Sep 2010, 22:13 · in reply to Andrew Mason* On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Andrew Mason wrote: > Also. Severian dreams of a ritual taking place in the Citadel chapel > at a time before the old sun was darkened, which invoves bread, wine > and a knife - not exactly the Christian eucharist, but something like > it. In the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, the (leavened) bread used in Communion is cut with a triangular-bladed knife, referred to as the Spear. ``` Matt + It is when I struggle to be brief that I become obscure. Horace [Quintus Horatius Flaccus] (65-8 B.C.), Epistles, bk. III (Ars Poetica) [c. 8 B.C.], l. 25 ``` --- ### Jack Smith *16 Sep 2010, 23:14 · in reply to James Wynn* Thanks for the links. > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 2:51 PM, James Wynn wrote: > Jack, the title is misleading. It was not an interview performed by > Mantis. He only acted as a go between for members of this List asking > questions about the Book of the Long Sun. The sources are not very easy to > find by searching the Urth.net archives so I'll post them here: > > Mantis announces Wolfe's agreement to the Q&A: > http://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0005/0258.shtml > > Q&A 1 > http://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0006/0350.shtml > > Q&A 2 > http://www.urth.net/whorl/archives/v0007/0511.shtml > > "The Wolfean Oracle Speaks" >> An interview by Michael Andre-Driussi: >> >> 4. Was what Silk saw in the manteion Pike's ghost, or an aquastor, or >> what? -- It was seen in the manse, not the manteion; it wasn't machine made. >> [DRL: See question 27.] >> >> 27. Is Pike's ghost really Quetzal? -- No. [DRL: Which blandly leaves the >> possibility that the `ghost' might still be another of the alien inhumi.... >> See question 4; also, below.] >> >> I don't have the date of this interview or where it was conducted. >> -- >> Best wishes, >> Jack > _______________________________________________ --- ### Nicholas *17 Sep 2010, 01:29 · follows Matthew Weber* As is mentioned by others the Orthodox liturgy explicitly uses a knife. It is ritually inserted prior to a formal cutting motion being made. Since Wolfe has mentioned that the state is based on a Byzantine pattern this could indicate a eucharistic ceremony. That being said I haven't read the books about the whorl so I can't comment further. --- ### James Wynn *17 Sep 2010, 11:43 · in reply to Jerry Friedman* >> Me- >> At the end of RttW Oreb says "Good Fishing". > ... > > Jerry Friedman - > Sorry, where does he say that? In a quick look, I could only find where Daisy > writes it five times at the very end of the book. Interesting. I had remembered her as quoting Oreb. But a careful read of the last chapter and afterward, as well as a search of the book at Amazon reveals Oreb saying no such thing. u+16b9 --- ### David Stockhoff *17 Sep 2010, 11:44 · in reply to Matthew Weber* Perhaps the knife is not dissimilar to the one Severian uses to split the skull of the old Autarch. > On 9/16/2010 6:13 PM, Matthew Weber wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Andrew Mason > > > wrote: > > Also. Severian dreams of a ritual taking place in the Citadel chapel > at a time before the old sun was darkened, which invoves bread, wine > and a knife - not exactly the Christian eucharist, but something like > it. > > > In the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, the (leavened) bread used in > Communion is cut with a triangular-bladed knife, referred to as the Spear. > > -- > Matt + > > It is when I struggle to be brief that I become obscure. > Horace [Quintus Horatius Flaccus] (65-8 B.C.), Epistles, bk. III > (Ars Poetica) [c. 8 B.C.], l. 25 > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Lee Berman *17 Sep 2010, 13:36 · follows David Stockhoff* Not that I have a solution but a few vague observations: > "When the first people came here, Auk, they were shown how we desired > to be worshipped. Soon, they were made to forget. Sounds like a conflict. One person or group reversed the actions of another. > They did, but because they had seen what they had seen, a part of them remembered, > and when they found our altars on the inner surface, they sacrificed as we had > taught them. First of all, here." So the reversal was only partial. Maybe it means human sacrifice was reduced to animal sacrifice? Human sacrifice is most closely associated with Echidna, I think. On Urth, Typhon demanded tribute of fair women and boys. What he did with them seems illustrated in the painting of his court orgy. Perhaps shrewish Echidna did not look kindly upon such attractive objects of her husband's attention and had her barbaric way with them when Typhon was finished. The name Scylla is invoked in BotNS. Echidna is not but there is mention of a book bound in echidne hide. Perhaps it is a spelling error and spiny anteater is meant. But that seems like an awkward, painful sort of binding for a book. Moreover "Echidne" is an alternate spelling for the Mother of All Monsters. Having her skin used to bind books in Ultan's Library could be part of the foul mood of her electronic avatar in the Whorl. Regarding Scylla, I'll re-observe: > She founded your Chapter as well, a parody of the state religion of her own whorl. To me the word "own" might imply ownership more than just origin. Typhon ruled a multi-planet empire. Perhaps Typhon installed Scylla as the ruler of another planet in his empire. The Empire had much interstellar travel and trade so I don't see that everything on The Whorl needed to come from Urth. --- ### Roy C. Lackey *06 Oct 2010, 06:19 · in reply to James Wynn* Take two. Let me give the Tartaros quote again: "When the first people came, Auk, they were shown how we desired to be worshipped. Soon, they were made to forget. They did, but because they had seen what they had seen, a part of them remembered, and when they found our altars on the inner surface, they sacrificed as we had taught them. First of all, here." Interpretations aside, it is indisputable that the worship preceded the forgetting. Why? I mean, why did the Typhons want to be worshipped at all? Lemur said the monarch's doctors had erased "as much as they dared of their patients' personal lives." Okay, I can accept that erasing the first people's personal memories might keep them from becoming disaffected with their new environment, but I have a hard time believing that the best way to go about making people forget someone is to first teach them to worship that someone. I can accept, in theory if not in practice, that an absolute dictator of a whole planet, who also had an unbridled ego, might have made himself so prominent in the lives of his subjects that he would leave an indelible mark on their memories, but why and how should that be the case for his wife and young children? His seven kids would have ranged in age from about 13 to 7 at the time they were scanned. We know that the eldest, Cilinia, died soon after being scanned. In Typhon's eyes, all of his children were found wanting in some way, if only by gender. Molpe was crazy, Tartaros blind and Hierax was a psycho who "inherited his father's virile indifference to the physical sensations of others to the point of mania." "He allowed himself to be seduced by it, to the point that he came to care for nothing else and while still a child slaughtered thousands for his amusement." (LAKE, chap. 12, 300) Under what possible circumstances would a boy of about ten have been allowed to slay thousands of people? Speaking confusedly of the Monarch's small second daughter, Mamelta said: "I remember seeing her often at home, dancing through my dreams. She was a wonderful dancer, but we cheered because we were afraid. You saw the hunger in her face for the kind of cheers the others got." (LAKE, chap. 10, 262) Why would Mamelta (and others) have feared how a little girl reacted to audience response? Had she feared the girl or one or both of her parents? Kypris also described a scene in which Typhon, apparently, had killed a thousand people who had been forced to kneel in a public square, while she was made to watch from a balcony while he watched her from another balcony. (NIGHTSIDE, chap. 12, 296-97) Scylla (in Chenille) told her newly appointed prophets (Auk, Dace, Incus) to kill fifty or a hundred children to attract her attention if Kypris made another theophany. When she departed Chenille at the Window at the lake, Auk saw "the sneering features of a girl a year or two from womanhood." (CALDE, chap. 1, 31) She was said to be "as strong-willed" as her father. The three youngest girls were: "Thelxiepeia with her spells and drugs and poisons, fat Phaea, and Sphigx, who combined her father's fortitude with her mother's vile temper. In a family such as hers, she would be forced to cultivate those qualities or die, unquestionably." (LAKE, chap. 12, 299-300) These things paint an ugly picture of the Typhons while they were flesh-and-blood people on Urth, and explains why they might not want the first people put aboard the ship to remember them. However, Mamelta, though she seemed not to have remembered Molpe's real name, remembered the dancing and the girl's hunger for adulation. The girl became the goddess of music, dance and art on the ship. The boy who slaughtered thousands became the god of death on the ship. Scylla said of her father, "In the beginning we chose up, with Daddy to be the god of everything--that's what his name meant--and boss over everybody." (LAKE, chap. 11, 274) Aggressive Sphigx became the goddess of war. Each family member's role as gods in Mainframe was a reflection of their personalities when they were flesh-and-blood people. The Typhons' names were changed when they became digitized entities in Mainframe, became gods with as much or more power than they ever had on Urth, now over a captive congregation rendered meek and unable to even think about opposing them, but that was *after* the first people on the ship had been taught how to worship them by burning animals on a sacrificial altar. So, again, what really changed when the Cargo was made to forget? Like Mamelta, Duko Rigoglio (aka Roger) had been a Sleeper forced to board the ship. Also like her, he could not remember what Pas' real name had been on Urth. But he remembered Nessus and the fact that he had lived somewhere south of the Citadel (IGJ, 218-19), which is where he received his fatal wound while on that astral trip there with Silkhorn. His rise to power on Blue had been modeled on Typhon's rise to power on Urth (279). When Silkhorn and Fava made that astral trip to the Duko's palace in Soldo, Rigoglio was curious about Oreb. Silkhorn explained that the bird had originally been intended as a sacrifice. The Duko admonished Silkhorn, saying "You failed repeatedly to honor the gods as is their right." "You wakers on the _Whorl_. In Nessus the gods walked among us, lords and ladies of Urth, even unto Shining Pas." (217) Note the plural, gods, flesh-and-blood entities seen by the public in Nessus. By Pas he means Typhon, the man with a single head. As I have said before, I don't care what religion(s) had been practiced during Typhon's reign or what the state religion may have been. But Rigoglio claimed that the Typhons had been regarded as gods on Urth, and that helps to explain some of the outrageous behavior attributed to them that I outlined above, and the sense of fear felt by people who had known them on Urth; gods can get away with anything, so long as they have the power. It also explains why Typhon's kids were so prominent in the minds of people put on the ship that they could not be forgotten. Rigoglio came to realize that some of his memories were false. If you want to argue that his memory of the Typhons as gods on Urth was false, then that directly contradicts the idea that Typhon wanted both sleeping and waking Cargo to forget him and his family. Though flesh-and-blood on Urth, in Mainframe they could only be virtual people, computer personalities who manifested themselves in computer terminals when they chose, or when summoned by sacrifices made in proximity to a computer terminal. The point is, they wanted to be worshipped, which brings me back to the oldest altar and the forgetting. Typhon elected to be portrayed as a two-headed freak, his wife with snakes in her hair, and their children not as little kids but as adults with physical attributes appropriate to their chosen roles as gods. An image on a computer screen lacks the presence and authority of a living physical being, but the Typhons had little choice and the worshippers they commandeered none. The people on the ship depended on the ship's gods for everything from day and night to the weather and almost everything else they needed to live. It seems to me that to maintain their positions as lords of the _Whorl_, when they were actually only virtual beings in a big computer, the Typhons used their god-like powers, which existed only by virtue of Mainframe, to intimidate those subject to their whims and utilized their computer-generated images as an interface, as their medium of command. On Urth, those people subject to their whims had been conditioned to obey real people, but on the ship those lords and masters were no longer real. On the ship as on Urth, the Typhons conducted themselves as gods, and they had the power to get away with it in both places. The altars and the burned sacrifices on the ship may have been new, but not the egos and behavior that prompted them. -Roy --- ### Jack Smith *06 Oct 2010, 10:16 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* Good, well-reasoned post. > On Wed, Oct 6, 2010 at 2:19 AM, Roy C. Lackey wrote: > Take two. Let me give the Tartaros quote again: > > "When the first people came, Auk, they were shown how we desired to be > worshipped. Soon, they were made to forget. They did, but because they had > seen what they had seen, a part of them remembered, and when they found our > altars on the inner surface, they sacrificed as we had taught them. First > of > all, here." > > Interpretations aside, it is indisputable that the worship preceded the > forgetting. Why? I mean, why did the Typhons want to be worshipped at all? > Lemur said the monarch's doctors had erased "as much as they dared of their > patients' personal lives." Okay, I can accept that erasing the first > people's personal memories might keep them from becoming disaffected with > their new environment, but I have a hard time believing that the best way > to > go about making people forget someone is to first teach them to worship > that > someone. > > I can accept, in theory if not in practice, that an absolute dictator of a > whole planet, who also had an unbridled ego, might have made himself so > prominent in the lives of his subjects that he would leave an indelible > mark > on their memories, but why and how should that be the case for his wife and > young children? His seven kids would have ranged in age from about 13 to 7 > at the time they were scanned. We know that the eldest, Cilinia, died soon > after being scanned. > > In Typhon's eyes, all of his children were found wanting in some way, if > only by gender. Molpe was crazy, Tartaros blind and Hierax was a psycho who > "inherited his father's virile indifference to the physical sensations of > others to the point of mania." "He allowed himself to be seduced by it, to > the point that he came to care for nothing else and while still a child > slaughtered thousands for his amusement." (LAKE, chap. 12, 300) Under what > possible circumstances would a boy of about ten have been allowed to slay > thousands of people? > > Speaking confusedly of the Monarch's small second daughter, Mamelta said: > "I > remember seeing her often at home, dancing through my dreams. She was a > wonderful dancer, but we cheered because we were afraid. You saw the hunger > in her face for the kind of cheers the others got." (LAKE, chap. 10, 262) > Why would Mamelta (and others) have feared how a little girl reacted to > audience response? Had she feared the girl or one or both of her parents? > > Kypris also described a scene in which Typhon, apparently, had killed a > thousand people who had been forced to kneel in a public square, while she > was made to watch from a balcony while he watched her from another balcony. > (NIGHTSIDE, chap. 12, 296-97) > > Scylla (in Chenille) told her newly appointed prophets (Auk, Dace, Incus) > to > kill fifty or a hundred children to attract her attention if Kypris made > another theophany. When she departed Chenille at the Window at the lake, > Auk > saw "the sneering features of a girl a year or two from womanhood." (CALDE, > chap. 1, 31) She was said to be "as strong-willed" as her father. The three > youngest girls were: "Thelxiepeia with her spells and drugs and poisons, > fat > Phaea, and Sphigx, who combined her father's fortitude with her mother's > vile temper. In a family such as hers, she would be forced to cultivate > those qualities or die, unquestionably." (LAKE, chap. 12, 299-300) > > These things paint an ugly picture of the Typhons while they were > flesh-and-blood people on Urth, and explains why they might not want the > first people put aboard the ship to remember them. However, Mamelta, though > she seemed not to have remembered Molpe's real name, remembered the dancing > and the girl's hunger for adulation. The girl became the goddess of music, > dance and art on the ship. The boy who slaughtered thousands became the god > of death on the ship. Scylla said of her father, "In the beginning we chose > up, with Daddy to be the god of everything--that's what his name meant--and > boss over everybody." (LAKE, chap. 11, 274) Aggressive Sphigx became the > goddess of war. Each family member's role as gods in Mainframe was a > reflection of their personalities when they were flesh-and-blood people. > > The Typhons' names were changed when they became digitized entities in > Mainframe, became gods with as much or more power than they ever had on > Urth, now over a captive congregation rendered meek and unable to even > think > about opposing them, but that was *after* the first people on the ship had > been taught how to worship them by burning animals on a sacrificial altar. > So, again, what really changed when the Cargo was made to forget? > > Like Mamelta, Duko Rigoglio (aka Roger) had been a Sleeper forced to board > the ship. Also like her, he could not remember what Pas' real name had been > on Urth. But he remembered Nessus and the fact that he had lived somewhere > south of the Citadel (IGJ, 218-19), which is where he received his fatal > wound while on that astral trip there with Silkhorn. His rise to power on > Blue had been modeled on Typhon's rise to power on Urth (279). When > Silkhorn > and Fava made that astral trip to the Duko's palace in Soldo, Rigoglio was > curious about Oreb. Silkhorn explained that the bird had originally been > intended as a sacrifice. The Duko admonished Silkhorn, saying "You failed > repeatedly to honor the gods as is their right." "You wakers on the > _Whorl_. > In Nessus the gods walked among us, lords and ladies of Urth, even unto > Shining Pas." (217) > > Note the plural, gods, flesh-and-blood entities seen by the public in > Nessus. By Pas he means Typhon, the man with a single head. As I have said > before, I don't care what religion(s) had been practiced during Typhon's > reign or what the state religion may have been. But Rigoglio claimed that > the Typhons had been regarded as gods on Urth, and that helps to explain > some of the outrageous behavior attributed to them that I outlined above, > and the sense of fear felt by people who had known them on Urth; gods can > get away with anything, so long as they have the power. It also explains > why > Typhon's kids were so prominent in the minds of people put on the ship that > they could not be forgotten. > > Rigoglio came to realize that some of his memories were false. If you want > to argue that his memory of the Typhons as gods on Urth was false, then > that > directly contradicts the idea that Typhon wanted both sleeping and waking > Cargo to forget him and his family. > > Though flesh-and-blood on Urth, in Mainframe they could only be virtual > people, computer personalities who manifested themselves in computer > terminals when they chose, or when summoned by sacrifices made in proximity > to a computer terminal. The point is, they wanted to be worshipped, which > brings me back to the oldest altar and the forgetting. Typhon elected to be > portrayed as a two-headed freak, his wife with snakes in her hair, and > their > children not as little kids but as adults with physical attributes > appropriate to their chosen roles as gods. An image on a computer screen > lacks the presence and authority of a living physical being, but the > Typhons > had little choice and the worshippers they commandeered none. The people on > the ship depended on the ship's gods for everything from day and night to > the weather and almost everything else they needed to live. > > It seems to me that to maintain their positions as lords of the _Whorl_, > when they were actually only virtual beings in a big computer, the Typhons > used their god-like powers, which existed only by virtue of Mainframe, to > intimidate those subject to their whims and utilized their > computer-generated images as an interface, as their medium of command. On > Urth, those people subject to their whims had been conditioned to obey real > people, but on the ship those lords and masters were no longer real. On the > ship as on Urth, the Typhons conducted themselves as gods, and they had the > power to get away with it in both places. The altars and the burned > sacrifices on the ship may have been new, but not the egos and behavior > that > prompted them. > > -Roy > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Gerry Quinn *06 Oct 2010, 10:43 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > From: "Roy C. Lackey" > "When the first people came, Auk, they were shown how we desired to be > worshipped. Soon, they were made to forget. They did, but because they had > seen what they had seen, a part of them remembered, and when they found > our > altars on the inner surface, they sacrificed as we had taught them. First > of > all, here." I think your post is excellent. The foregoing paragraph still seems rather mysterious, though, as it seems to hint at events during a period about which we know little or nothing - i.e. a time between when people first came to the Whorl, and when they began living on the inner surface, in cities such as Viron. Perhaps they lived in the tunnels while the main interior of the Whorl was excavated and terraformed. Their tasks would have included hauling out thousands of cubic kilometres of asteroid rock (makes me think of ancient Egyptians constructing the Pyramids). Mainframe probably did not yet exist. Did Typhon (and/or his family) institute a special form of worship during this period? - Gerry Quinn --- ### António Marques *06 Oct 2010, 12:13 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > On 6 October 2010 07:19, Roy C. Lackey wrote: > The Duko admonished Silkhorn, saying "You failed > repeatedly to honor the gods as is their right." "You wakers on the _Whorl_. > In Nessus the gods walked among us, lords and ladies of Urth, even unto > Shining Pas." (217) > > Note the plural, gods, flesh-and-blood entities seen by the public in > Nessus. By Pas he means Typhon, the man with a single head. As I have said > before, I don't care what religion(s) had been practiced during Typhon's > reign or what the state religion may have been. But Rigoglio claimed that > the Typhons had been regarded as gods on Urth, and that helps to explain > some of the outrageous behavior attributed to them that I outlined above, > and the sense of fear felt by people who had known them on Urth; gods can > get away with anything, so long as they have the power. That's not how I read it (that the Typhons had been regarded as gods on Urth). Rather, the people he [now] knows as gods walked among him and others on Urth. Just as he doesn't remeber their names, he doesn't remember their role at the time; wakers take them as gods, so gods it is. Mamelta - who didn't have years after her awakening to come to regard the wakers' culture as more reliable than her own (a point Rigoglio stresses) - doesn't seem to regard Typhon as a god, but as a conqueror. Now, it isn't impossible that a god appears as a conqueror, but somehow it doesn't look like that to me in her discourse. --- ### David Stockhoff *06 Oct 2010, 12:35 · in reply to Gerry Quinn* Lacking no knowledge about how memory-wiping "works," I can only agree and observe that plainly there is tension between the Typhons' desire, on the one hand, to have their worst excesses forgotten so that they may be worshiped wholeheartedly on the Whorl and, on the other, that their crimes and flaws not be entirely forgotten so that they may be worshiped fearfully on the Whorl. In fact, this seems almost to be the function of a pantheon---that it contain gods to be feared as well as gods to be loved, though even then you still have gods that are to be loved and feared at the same time. Wolfe's God contains all functions: he is to be loved, but he once wiped out most life on Earth with a flood, just as the Increate did or allowed on Ushas. So this tension is a real part of godhood, and the Typhons may be equally a parody or an analysis of godhood. As for Typhon's most horrid children, I am reminded of Saddam's sons, who also were able to order deaths through their official positions. All an emperor needs to do is make his 10-y-old son Guardian of the Royal Garden Shed, and the slaughter can begin if the boy is so inclined. These types of behavior are both a liability and an asset, depending. Saddam also built palaces and statues and mosques and stadiums and hospitals and so on, that he be thought of paternally and that his peccadilloes be overshadowed by this paternal image. But Iraqi citizens were effectively terrorized. Finally, I hypothesize that Typhon's doctors could not biomedically implant memories, at least not as well as they could wipe them. We know this because the colonists were basically lectured on how to worship the gods---there were no injections or implants or reverse uploads. Therefore, it makes sense that wiping would be the final stage, especially if wiping affects long-term memory more than short-term. Knowing some memory would remain, they did the best they could to suggest to the colonists that the gods were to be both loved and feared, but never hated. Rather than empty their heads and then refill them, they subjected them to propaganda, then carved out the most damaging memories: the details of Typhon's rule and day-to-day life on Urth. Had the Typhons been planning to take ship on the Whorl, they would have been able to continue their behavior as before. As "gods" with no physical presence, it was wise to tone down this behavior, since they could only rule through subordinates and were unable to personally brutalize anyone. Total memory wipe was unnecessary and undesirable---muddling memories or making them fuzzy or confused was sufficient for this purpose. > On 10/6/2010 6:43 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote: > > From: "Roy C. Lackey" >> "When the first people came, Auk, they were shown how we desired to be >> worshipped. Soon, they were made to forget. They did, but because >> they had >> seen what they had seen, a part of them remembered, and when they >> found our >> altars on the inner surface, they sacrificed as we had taught them. >> First of >> all, here." > I think your post is excellent. The foregoing paragraph still seems > rather mysterious, though, as it seems to hint at events during a > period about which we know little or nothing - i.e. a time between > when people first came to the Whorl, and when they began living on the > inner surface, in cities such as Viron. Perhaps they lived in the > tunnels while the main interior of the Whorl was excavated and > terraformed. Their tasks would have included hauling out thousands of > cubic kilometres of asteroid rock (makes me think of ancient Egyptians > constructing the Pyramids). Mainframe probably did not yet exist. Did > Typhon (and/or his family) institute a special form of worship during > this period? > > - Gerry Quinn > > > > > > > _______________________________________________ --- ### Lee Berman *06 Oct 2010, 12:59 · follows David Stockhoff* > Roy C. Lackey- It is indisputable that the worship preceded the > forgetting. Why? I mean, why did the Typhons want to be worshipped at all? Clearly it was something they were used to on Urth (and perhaps other planets). > I have a hard time believing that the best way to go about making people forget > someone is to first teach them to worship that someone. Yes. Hence we must suspect the Typhons were not a unified family. That some were working at cross-purpose to others. But we already know that happened. Why not assume the various problems of The Whorl all resulted from this same conflict. For me the suggestion is that part of the process of wiping Pas out of Mainframe was to wipe him from the memory of Whorl residents. But the memory-wiping process also inadvertantly erased the teachings of how to worship. Neither erasure was complete. There is much evidence found in Roy's post to suggest the Typhons were involved with human sacrifice on Urth. Evidence from BotNS and the hidden painting of Pas suggests Typhon had a sexual purpose for the victims also. (Herena's arm made her unsuitably ugly but the cute boys and girls sent to Typhon did not return). The conclusion for me is that Typhon and his family wanted human sacrifice to continue on the Whorl but something went wrong. Both Mainframe and human brains were bollixed by the attempted insurrection. The windows didn't work all the time. Pas remained in human memory as an absent Father God. And people picked up some ridiculous notion that human life was valuable and started sacrificing animals instead. This is why Duko admonishes Silkhorn for attempting to honor the gods with a bird sacrifice. That isn't what they wanted. The Outsider is a minor god, barely present enough to be a competitor to the other gods. This is in parallel to the status of Jahweh (later also called Allah) in the early days of Judaism. The more numerous worshipers of Jaweh's competitors, Moloch, Asteroth, the Baal gods, were gleeful participants in human sacrifice. I think it was the Plan of the Outsider to get Typhon's family fighting among themselves, messing up the blasphemous Whorl, ending human sacrifice, enlightening Silk, discrediting the false gods, etc.) Thus the Long Sun series addresses the Abraham/Isaac portion of God's Covenant with humanity. BotNS obviously addresses the Noah/Flood portion of the Covenenant. I wonder if Short Sun is meant to address the Jacob/Moses portions regarding the Promised Land. > Under what possible circumstances would a boy of about ten have been allowed to slay > thousands of people? > Why would Mamelta (and others) have feared how a little girl reacted to > audience response? Had she feared the girl or one or both of her parents? Perhaps they were extremely powerful human beings. Or perhaps they were something more than human. Their disdain for human life and the sanctity of the human body is a bit creepy. I get the impression, from his work and interviews, that Gene Wolfe considers the possibility that man's inhumanity to man might have an alien source. Severian twice mentions his dream of a benign, utopian world where "all the people knew themselves bound by ties of blood, being descended from the same pair of colonists" I think this could mean we will treat each other humanely, as we were meant to, when we are free from non-human influences. A nice mix of SF and Christianity. --- ### James Wynn *06 Oct 2010, 16:19 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* Nicely done, Roy. I'll just address your proffered questions. > Roy C. Lackey- > Take two. > [snip] > Interpretations aside, it is indisputable that the worship preceded the > forgetting. Why? I mean, why did the Typhons want to be worshipped at all? Isn't it because they were worshiped _secularly_ on Urth? I mean, worshiped in the sense that Stalin was worshiped or Kim Jong Il _is_ worshiped.** Also, it was a joke. The Wakers were already conditioned to obey the Typhons. Typhon couldn't redirect that conditioning onto something else (same issue as the head-transplant operation). He didn't want their memories of him to help them reconstruct their old memories. He didn't want to stir up too many actual memories. So he created the Nine to distort their memories of him and his family to obey something different--something that only exists on the Whorl, that they would never have encountered on Urth. **I recently heard a report about refugees in South Korea being allowed to visit relatives in North Korea. One old woman who had become a Christian asked her nephew (meeting him for the first time) if he believed in God. He told her that Kim Jong Il was God. > I can accept, in theory if not in practice, that an absolute dictator of a > whole planet, who also had an unbridled ego, might have made himself so > prominent in the lives of his subjects that he would leave an indelible mark > on their memories, but why and how should that be the case for his wife and > young children? His seven kids would have ranged in age from about 13 to 7 > at the time they were scanned. We know that the eldest, Cilinia, died soon > after being scanned. It doesn't require an unbridled ego. It seems obvious that absolute dictators who survive require absolute devotion of their subjects at all times. And they take multi-leveled steps to ensure their subjects are reminded of that. As for why the children? That's a good question. That Typhon permitted his children to take part in his terror of Urth implies that he did not consider them a threat...he so them as part of his legacy. So his family represented a Royal Family of Terror-- Queen Elizabeth II meets Saddam. > In Typhon's eyes, all of his children were found wanting in some way [snip] Hierax was a psycho who "inherited his father's virile indifference to the physical sensations of others to the point of mania." Do you think Typhon saw this as a deficiency? > [snip] Scylla (in Chenille) told her newly appointed prophets (Auk, Dace, Incus) to kill fifty or a hundred children to attract her attention if Kypris made > another theophany. It appears that the Whorl gods cannot monitor all behavior at once--but the Mainframe is designed to flag sacrifices in front of Sacred Windows and monitors based on type...human sacrifices are major flags, large human sacrifices are not likely to go unnoticed. > [snip] > The Typhons' names were changed when they became digitized entities in > Mainframe, became gods with as much or more power than they ever had on > Urth, now over a captive congregation rendered meek and unable to even think > about opposing them, but that was *after* the first people on the ship had > been taught how to worship them by burning animals on a sacrificial altar. > So, again, what really changed when the Cargo was made to forget? You seem to have answered this question. They were digitized and the were gods with the power over their subjects souls as well as their minds and bodies. But most importantly, the gods existed on the Whorl only. Thus, their identities were not useful for the the Wakers and Sleepers to reconstruct their old memories. > Rigoglio came to realize that some of his memories were false. If you want > to argue that his memory of the Typhons as gods on Urth was false, then that > directly contradicts the idea that Typhon wanted both sleeping and waking > Cargo to forget him and his family. I think you are making this more complicated than necessary. Pas is a god on the Whorl and Rigoglio is well aware that he was a flesh-and-blood entity on Urth. So the gods walked among them on Urth. Before being put to sleep, Rigoglio undoubtably was taught and conditioned to worship the gods just as the original Wakers were. That is why, when he woke, he had the same inclination to worship the Nine as did the inhabitants of Viron. If the Urthlings actually, _religiously_, worshiped the Typhons, why teach them new rituals? Typhon couldn't remove the memory of himself and his family (who even to the youngest he had implicated in his terror over his subjects), so he chose not to try. Just as Lemur explained. Instead he distorted the memory. u+16b9 --- ### James Wynn *06 Oct 2010, 17:22 · in reply to James Wynn* > James Wynn- > As for why the children? That's a good question. That Typhon permitted > his children to take part in his terror of Urth implies that he did > not consider them a threat...*he so them* as part of his legacy. "he saw them" --- ### DAVID STOCKHOFF *06 Oct 2010, 17:44 · in reply to James Wynn* Exactly! --- On Wed, 10/6/10, James Wynn wrote: From: James Wynn Subject: Re: (urth) Oldest altar To: "The Urth Mailing List" Date: Wednesday, October 6, 2010, 12:19 PM The Wakers were already conditioned to obey the Typhons. Typhon couldn't redirect that conditioning onto something else (same issue as the head-transplant operation). He didn't want their memories of him to help them reconstruct their old memories. He didn't want to stir up too many actual memories. So he created the Nine to distort their memories of him and his family to obey something different--something that only exists on the Whorl, that they would never have encountered on Urth. .... Typhon couldn't remove the memory of himself and his family (who even to the youngest he had implicated in his terror over his subjects), so he chose not to try. Just as Lemur explained. Instead he distorted the memory. u+16b9 --- ### Roy C. Lackey *07 Oct 2010, 04:28 · in reply to António Marques* >> Ant?nio Marques quoted and wrote: >> The Duko admonished Silkhorn, saying "You failed >> repeatedly to honor the gods as is their right." "You wakers on the >> _Whorl_. >> In Nessus the gods walked among us, lords and ladies of Urth, even unto >> Shining Pas." (217) >> >> Note the plural, gods, flesh-and-blood entities seen by the public in >> Nessus. By Pas he means Typhon, the man with a single head. As I have >> said >> before, I don't care what religion(s) had been practiced during Typhon's >> reign or what the state religion may have been. But Rigoglio claimed >> that >> the Typhons had been regarded as gods on Urth, and that helps to explain >> some of the outrageous behavior attributed to them that I outlined >> above, >> and the sense of fear felt by people who had known them on Urth; gods >> can >> get away with anything, so long as they have the power. > That's not how I read it (that the Typhons had been regarded as gods > on Urth). Rather, the people he [now] knows as gods walked among him > and others on Urth. Just as he doesn't remeber their names, he doesn't > remember their role at the time; wakers take them as gods, so gods it > is. Mamelta - who didn't have years after her awakening to come to > regard the wakers' culture as more reliable than her own (a point > Rigoglio stresses) - doesn't seem to regard Typhon as a god, but as a > conqueror. Now, it isn't impossible that a god appears as a conqueror, > but somehow it doesn't look like that to me in her discourse. Rigoglio had never been exposed to the gods-in-the-machine on the ship, and the gods could not follow the colonists to Blue. Even if he just gave lip-service to the ship's gods, just went along to get along on Blue, how could he recognize the two-headed freak the colonists spoke of back on the ship as the monarch he had known of on Urth? The people of Urth had known nothing of the head transplant, and the people on the ship at the time of the exodus knew nothing at all about Urth. How would he have equated the girl Cilinia on Urth with the tentacled being the people from the ship had called Scylla? -Roy --- ### Lee Berman *07 Oct 2010, 11:13 · follows Roy C. Lackey* > Roy C. Lackey: ...the gods could not follow the colonists to Blue. Would seem to be true. Yet we have Echinda worship still strong in Gaon. Coincidence or not that we have a giant, shapeshifting entity in the ocean called The Mother? --- ### entonio at gmail.com *07 Oct 2010, 13:03 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* No dia 2010/10/07, ?s 05:28, "Roy C. Lackey" escreveu: > Rigoglio had never been exposed to the gods-in-the-machine on the > ship, and > the gods could not follow the colonists to Blue. Even if he just gave > lip-service to the ship's gods, just went along to get along on > Blue, how > could he recognize the two-headed freak the colonists spoke of back > on the > ship as the monarch he had known of on Urth? The people of Urth had > known > nothing of the head transplant, and the people on the ship at the > time of > the exodus knew nothing at all about Urth. How would he have equated > the > girl Cilinia on Urth with the tentacled being the people from the > ship had > called Scylla? Those are good questions, but I don't see their relevance here - istm they apply just as well no matter what the status of the typhons (do I love this plural!) on Urth was. A way around it is to posit that the tinkering with their memories included inserting the new names there. Or even the new appearances. Identification would be trivial. The sleepers would only remember some events and personalities. I don't think Roger was paying lip service. I think he came to accept the wakers' pov, because he realised his own was unreliable. --- ### entonio at gmail.com *07 Oct 2010, 13:14 · in reply to Lee Berman* No dia 2010/10/07, ?s 12:13, Lee Berman escreveu: >> Roy C. Lackey: ...the gods could not follow the colonists to Blue. > Would seem to be true. All evidence is that only a small number of people realised that. --- ### James Wynn *07 Oct 2010, 14:45 · in reply to Roy C. Lackey* > Roy- > Rigoglio had never been exposed to the gods-in-the-machine on the ship, and > the gods could not follow the colonists to Blue. Even if he just gave > lip-service to the ship's gods, just went along to get along on Blue, how > could he recognize the two-headed freak the colonists spoke of back on the > ship as the monarch he had known of on Urth? The people of Urth had known > nothing of the head transplant, and the people on the ship at the time of > the exodus knew nothing at all about Urth. How would he have equated the > girl Cilinia on Urth with the tentacled being the people from the ship had > called Scylla? I would suppose (for supposition is all we have, I think) that when Rigoglio thought of the Typhons, he thought of their monstrous versions in the Whorl. And though he retained the memory that they were flesh and blood on Urth, he had also been artificially conditioned (prior to being put to sleep) to think of them as gods deserving of worship. It's not at all unlikely that he had _some_ surviving memories of their corporal forms. But those memories took a less pre-eminent place in his mind than their Whorl forms (just as Silk no doubt sometimes --in the years following the Exodus-- thought of Kypris as looking something like Chenille and Auk thought of Chenille as being something like Kypris). This would cause psychological tension and confusion, but it is the sort tension between education, belief, and intuition that the human mind tolerates all the time. u+16b9 --- ### DAVID STOCKHOFF *07 Oct 2010, 15:05 · in reply to James Wynn* In other words, take Rigolio's statement that the gods walked on Urth at face value. For someone with his memories and in his condition, that would be a plain statement of fact, however complicated by other facts. --- On Thu, 10/7/10, James Wynn wrote: > From: James Wynn > Subject: Re: (urth) Oldest altar > To: "The Urth Mailing List" > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 10:45 AM > Roy- > Rigoglio had never been exposed to the gods-in-the-machine on the ship, and > the gods could not follow the colonists to Blue. Even if he just gave > lip-service to the ship's gods, just went along to get along on Blue, how > could he recognize the two-headed freak the colonists spoke of back on the > ship as the monarch he had known of on Urth? The people of Urth had known > nothing of the head transplant, and the people on the ship at the time of > the exodus knew nothing at all about Urth. How would he have equated the > girl Cilinia on Urth with the tentacled being the people from the ship had > called Scylla? I would suppose (for supposition is all we have, I think) that when Rigoglio thought of the Typhons, he thought of their monstrous versions in the Whorl. And though he retained the memory that they were flesh and blood on Urth, he had also been artificially conditioned (prior to being put to sleep) to think of them as gods deserving of worship. It's not at all unlikely that he had _some_ surviving memories of their corporal forms. But those memories took a less pre-eminent place in his mind than their Whorl forms (just as Silk no doubt sometimes --in the years following the Exodus-- thought of Kypris as looking something like Chenille and Auk thought of Chenille as being something like Kypris). This would cause psychological tension and confusion, but it is the sort tension between education, belief, and intuition that the human mind tolerates all the time. u+16b9 --- ### Lee Berman *07 Oct 2010, 16:06 · follows DAVID STOCKHOFF* > entonio: the typhons (do I love this plural!) Me too. Sorta like "The Typhonnnns! dum dit dit dit dum dit dit dit duh duh duh dit." HomerPas- D'oh! I've got a headsache. Margidna- Anyone for more roast Musk? Liscylla- Can't world conquest and world peace go hand in hand? Bartaros- cowabunga! Outta my way dude, I can't see a thing! Magolpe- ------ --- ### DAVID STOCKHOFF *07 Oct 2010, 19:59 · in reply to Lee Berman* I'll bet there's been an episode where Homer had 2 heads, at least briefly. If not, it's about time! --- On Thu, 10/7/10, Lee Berman wrote: > From: Lee Berman > Subject: (urth) Oldest altar > To: urth at lists.urth.net > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 12:06 PM > entonio: the typhons (do I? love this plural!)? Me too. Sorta like "The Typhonnnns! dum dit dit dit dum dit dit dit duh duh duh dit." HomerPas- D'oh! I've got a headsache. Margidna- Anyone for more roast Musk? Liscylla- Can't world conquest and world peace go hand in hand? Bartaros- cowabunga! Outta my way dude, I can't see a thing! Magolpe-? ------ ? ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? --- ### Dave Tallman *08 Oct 2010, 13:56 · follows DAVID STOCKHOFF* David Stockhoff wrote: I'll bet there's been an episode where Homer had 2 heads, at least briefly. If not, it's about time! Yes, in "Treehouse of Horror II" Homer had Mr. Burn's head grafted to his body. Given the character of Burns, that's a good match with Typhon/Piaton. Since it's a Treehouse episode it's not in the normal continuity. --- ### David Stockhoff *08 Oct 2010, 14:06 · in reply to Dave Tallman* I knew it. Brilliant! > On 10/8/2010 9:56 AM, Dave Tallman wrote: > David Stockhoff wrote: > > I'll bet there's been an episode where Homer had 2 heads, at least > briefly. If not, it's about time! > > Yes, in "Treehouse of Horror II" Homer had Mr. Burn's head grafted to > his body. Given the character of Burns, that's a good match with > Typhon/Piaton. Since it's a Treehouse episode it's not in the normal > continuity. > > > _______________________________________________ > Urth Mailing List > To post, write urth at urth.net ---