{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5742", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5742, "subject": "The Pelerine (COTA 8)", "messages": 5, "voices": 3, "first": "2010-09-11T17:00:34+00:00", "last": "2010-09-13T15:47:07+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-11T17:00:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 8)", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "(Dunno why I wrote 12 before: it is chapter 8.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nWelcome Andrew!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks Lee!\n\n I often think that chapter names provide more clues to what is going" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "on than what is frequently acknowledged here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes indeed. One of Cyriaca's chapters is actually a good example -\n'The Library of the Citadel', making it clear, in a way it wouldn't be\notherwise, what her story is about. There's also the chapter 'Dorcas',\nin which, if I remember rightly, the name 'Dorcas' never occurs." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When Severian is talking to Cyriaca, she first tells him that she has had no\ncontact with any of the Pelerines since leaving. Later, under fear of torture,\nCyriaca tells Severian that she got a letter a week ago from her friend,\nEinhildis, saying the Pelerines were stationed at the Autarch's battle camp\nat Orithiya.\n\nBeing at Orithiya, and unnamed, I must guess this older Pelerine is Einhildis.\nI don't see anything mysterious about Einhildis herself." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That it's Einhildis makes a lot of sense; though, as you say, it's not\nentirely clear why that should lead to concealing her name. Perhaps\nbecause Severian would start asking her questions about Cyriaca if he\nknew who she was? (One question that can arise is who is concealing\nthe name. Sometimes it's clearly Severian; he must, for instace, know\nthe name of his predecessor as Autarch. Or there's Jader's sister;\nJader actually calls out his sister's name in his sleep, but Sev\ndoesn't tell us what it was. But at other times there's no reason why\nSeverian should know the name, so it may be Wolfe who is concealing\nit.)\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My conjectures about Cyriaca are:\n\n1. She is a family member of Severian's, probably aunt. They have sex, so no great\nsurprise there. Perhaps she is mother to Agia and Agilus as she plans to go to escape\nback to Nessus to sew and cook." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not convinced by the idea that everyone who Severian has sex with\nis related to him. Is there any special evidence in this case?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2. Her mysterious (and likely lecherous) uncle who told her so many stories and seems\nto know more about the cosmic history of humanity than anyone else on Urth might be\nFather Inire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Cyriaca knows a lot, but her knowledge is strangely bitty. She thinks\nthe Citadel is deserted and only the Autarch knows about it. The 'lost\narchives' are not nearly as lost as she imagines. She also seems to\nthink that Nessus was newly built in the time of Typhon.\n\nI'm inclined to think that the knowledge she has is not secret, just\nnot widely shared, because people generally don't inquire, and find it\ndifficult when they do. Even in the actual world there is an immense\namount of knowledge that is not secret but not widely shared; it would\nbe much more so in the Commonwealth, with fewer schools and libraries,\nand no internet. Consider how many people think the torturers no\nlonger exist, though they are a recognised branch of government, based\nin a highly visible place.\n\n. (I think the Citadel is mentioned to have a Red Tower and a Tower of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Healing)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I've wondered about the Red Tower (which seems, with the Witches'\nTower and the Bear, to be one of those nearest the Matachin, but whose\nfunction is never stated). But if it were connected with the\nPelerines, wouldn't Severian know more about them?\n\nWe know that the Pelerines are primarily an exultant order. But we have" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "evidence (secret beautification, khaibits, experiments with hairless creatures) that\nexultant Chatelaines also have some connection to witches. Secret connections all over\nthe place." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I know about khaibits. Where do we hear about secret beautification\nand hairless creatures (in connection with Exultants - I remember the\nwitches' hairless creatures)?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "4. Cyriaca discusses the landing of cacogens in the north and they they'd want to \"avoid\nthe mirrors at the House Absolute so they could escape the eyes of the Autarch.\" She\ndiscusses political tension between exultants and the Autarch, between the Autarch and the\ncacogens (hierodules). Stuff even Thecla knows only as rumor. Again, it seems Cyriaca's\nuncle has been filling her in on very secret stuff known only by the guys at the very top." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, she gets the landing of cacogens from Einhildis: I presume she\nmeans the ones at Baldanders' castle, who don't seem to be making an\neffort to conceal themselves, and whose arrival would have caused\nquite a stir locally. The general political situation, regarding the\nAutarch and cacogens, she says is common knowledge among the upper\nclasses. May it be that she knows more than Thecla just because she is\nmore alert?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course the cacogens do show up at the House Absolute for Dr. Talos' play, so Cyriaca\nisn't a perfectly reliable source of information. Still, I think the whole thing (along with\nPalaemon and Rudesind forgetting their lines) smacks of a big set-up for Severian. A play\ndesigned to set him on a particular course. Severian has been steered to Orithya." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That the Autarch and Inire are up to something is clear. I remember\nRudesind, who works for Inire, forgetting his lines. Where does\nPalaemon do so? There's the bit about Thrax being in the south, but\nthat's a a forgetting of facts, not just of lines; Thrax _is_ in the\nnorth. I'm convinced by the theory that Palaemon is confused because\nhis exile was in the south." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Well, okay probably too much. As the old Autarch tells Severian, \"you asked me for a light for\nyour candle, and I tried to give you the sun...\". But hopefully at least a little helpful." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No problem. You've given me a lot to think about." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-12T02:28:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 8)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: There's also the chapter 'Dorcas', in which, if I remember \nrightly, the name 'Dorcas' never occurs. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yep, though we do hear the nickname, \"Cas\" repeated a few times, as Ryan Dunn\nand I discussed recently. I suspect few first time readers connect the boatman's \nlost wife, Cas, with young Dorcas." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That it's Einhildis makes a lot of sense; though, as you say, it's not\nentirely clear why that should lead to concealing her name." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAside from Cyriaca, the most interesting thing to me about Severian's conversation \nwith The Pelerine is the suggestion that he may have some pedophilic thoughts \nat times. Also interesting is that one of the other times there is a suggestion of \nSeverian's pedophilia is during a conversation with another notable but unnamed \ncharacter, the Old Leech (his boy Mamas gets a name but not the Leech). \n \nI admit that I may be the only person in the lupine universe to see this pedophilic \ntendency, so perhaps it is just me being weird. (I myself am very normal, I swear!)\nBut, given that I see much allegory to ancient Greek myth I don't think it is as weird \nas it might appear. Zeus and Heracles and a number of others had such pedophilic \ntendencies and it would seem they were more tolerated back then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm not convinced by the idea that everyone who Severian has sex with\nis related to him. Is there any special evidence in this (Cyriaca's) case?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMany think that the maid playing Holy Katharine is Catherine, Severian's mother.\nCyriaca would seem to be roughly Catherine's age. Also they both have dark hair, an \noval face and may both be failed Pelerines. There is some other circumstantial \nevidence that connects them. Not enough evidence to fully prove Cyriaca is Severian's \nrelative but enough for me to consider it possible, since I am actively looking for \nhis family members in the story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cyriaca knows a lot, but her knowledge is strangely bitty. I'm inclined to think that the \nknowledge she has is not secret, just not widely shared." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIf all she knew about was the formation of the Library, I might agree. But she seems to have\nintimate knowledge of the Hiero race and how the Hierogrammates were formed and how they use\naquastors. It is the same story we hear from Malrubius and from Apheta and Tzadkiel in Yesod, \nbut from a different point of view (a darker, more twisted view).\n \nIn recent discussions we've sorta determined that the Hierogrammates were probably created by\nhumans from Ushas. If not, by humans from another universe or something. Either way, this stuff\nseems way, way too cosmic for someone like provincial Cyriaca to have come by casually on Urth. \nHer uncle is a rare book collector, making him like a curator sort of person. And we know Father \nInire has a penchant for trying to unfairly awe little girls with stuff which is far too cosmic \nfor them to really grasp. I see a likely connection." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, I've wondered about the Red Tower (which seems, with the Witches' Tower and the Bear, to be \none of those nearest the Matachin, but whose function is never stated). But if it were connected \nwith the Pelerines, wouldn't Severian know more about them?...I know about khaibits. Where do we \nhear about secret beautification and hairless creatures (in connection with Exultants - I remember \nthe witches' hairless creatures)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well the torturers (even Master Gurloes) all seem rather scared of the Witches. There is something \nabout the torturers never going to the tower of Healing as ancient scores might be settled...I \nwas just thumbing through Borski's Solar Labyrinth and he devotes a chapter to the witches with \na bunch of evidence about how they could be connected to the Pelerines and perhaps that the Cumaean \nserves as the leader of both. \n \nThere is a mention of Chatelaine Lelia's hairless rats which seem similar to the Cumaean's hairless \ncreatures. Might be a connection. I'll say this. There is much mystery associated with those in the \nCommonwealth who dabble in the biological sciences. We get a pretty detailed view of Father Inire's \nmirrors and a blaster pistol and flyers, but the machinery in the Witches Tower, Typhon's building, \nBaldanders castle is all very mysteriously described.\n \nIt is my theory that there is much cloning going on here but it is highly disguised and usually \nunmentioned My guess is that the hairless creatures are cloned fetuses; the Mandragora being an \nexample.\n \nRegarding secret beautification, there are the khaibits which is sort of secret, their purpose only \nrevealed at the end of CotA. There is Dr. Talos' beautification of Jolenta, the secrets of which are \nrevealed at theend of CotC. The Cumaean is supposed to be able to beautify even more than Dr. Talos. \nAnd Merryn, who looks the same after 15 years, has the skin stretched tighly across her face like \nparchment.\n \nAnother quickie is from Severian's mushroom-induced hallucination in which we learn that exultant women \nhave \"their eyes made large, as Thecla's had been by the application of miunute amounts of certain poisons \nin childhood\". Maybe the most cryptic is a dream sequence in which Thecla is in a room with a bunch of tall \nwomen and one has a \"heart-shaped patch\" with \"web-fingered wings\" on her face. There seems to be something \ngoing on with blood bats that we are not fully told about.\n \nFor so many years I was rather stumped on why all this mysterious beautification was going on in the \nseams and cracks of BotNS. Recently I stumbled upon the Judeo-Christian story of a certain fallen angel who \nspecialized in bringing war to men and artificial beautification to women and mating with them. I think \nthis may be related to this story. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<75385307012d7901af6f0520ac480723.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-12T05:23:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 8)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In recent discussions we've sorta determined that the Hierogrammates were\nprobably created by\nhumans from Ushas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew: Please note that the \"we\" of this determination consists entirely\nof Lee and the mouse in their pocket. The majority view (of those\nexpressing opinions) seems to be that the Hierogrammates and were the\nproducts of humans of a previous Big Bang/Big Crunch cycle. Meanwhile, the\nhumans of Ushas are the conventional descendants of the humans of Urth,\nand their only visible offspring race is that of the Green Man." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-12T11:05:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 8)", "in_reply_to": "<75385307012d7901af6f0520ac480723.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Andrew: Please note that the \"we\" of this determination consists entirely\nof Lee and the mouse in their pocket. The majority view (of those\nexpressing opinions) seems to be that the Hierogrammates and were the\nproducts of humans of a previous Big Bang/Big Crunch cycle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nApologies. Didn't mean to speak for others. \"mouse in their pocket\"? I did mention humans \nfrom other universe as part of the opinion of the majority but Jeff snipped it. Perhaps \nneither Jeff nor I should speak of majorities without doing a poll. \n \nIn the discussion I was speaking of, four characters weigh in on the idea that it is the \nhumanity of Urth/Ushas that gives rise to Hieros. Malrubius doesn't know. Severian says\n\"perhaps\". Apheta, at the end, says \"I believe it to be so\". Tzadkiel implies he was an \nacolyte of a Conciliator/New Sun \"in a creation now vanished\" which could mean Briah or\ncould mean some other universe.\n \nI think the question becomes- why did the Hierogrammates give Severian the power to change\nUrth to Ushas? Are they divine judges above the fray? Or are they taking a hand in their\nown creation? I see evidence for both. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C8E477B.2010607@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-13T15:47:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) The Pelerine (COTA 8)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/12/2010 6:05 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nIn the discussion I was speaking of, four characters weigh in on the idea that it is the\nhumanity of Urth/Ushas that gives rise to Hieros. Malrubius doesn't know. Severian says\n\"perhaps\". Apheta, at the end, says \"I believe it to be so\". Tzadkiel implies he was an\nacolyte of a Conciliator/New Sun \"in a creation now vanished\" which could mean Briah or\ncould mean some other universe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The constraint \"in a creation now vanished\" would limit it to some \nprevious incarnation of Briah, since only Briah is spoken of to have \nby-gone, inaccessible existences.\n\nThe only real Issue I see is to what extent the human race of the \nprevious incarnation of Briah is the same race as that of Severian's \nBriah, for the purposes of determining what kind of intervention they \nneed or deserve. It's the old \"kill baby Hitler\" question writ large: if \nthe Urthlings of Severian's time have the same numerical identity as the \nUrthlings that cruelly wrought Tzadkiel's race, then severe intervention \nin their course of history is easily justified. If they are not, then \nthey arguably deserve a chance to make their own mistakes." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] } ] }