Subject: (urth) Short Sun blog review

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 14:05:43 +0000

It's that time of the week again!

---

"Notes on Gene Wolfe's "Short Sun" novels"
http://www.tommoody.us/archives/2010/09/18/notes-on-gene-wolfes-short-sun-novels/

"The novels' not-so-big revelation is that the Neighbors brought the
inhumi aboard the Ark and are studying human interactions with the
vampires there, on Blue, and on Green.

It's a twist on the cultural mirror idea. Humans want to meet an
extraterrestrial species to understand what it means to be human. When
the inhumi suck human or Neighbor blood they become like their
victims. Thus they are not a true mirror--they become too much like
us. The Neighbors want to see how human-influenced inhumi differ from
Neighbor-influenced inhumi, so the Neighbors can understand
themselves. This seems awfully complicated: wouldn't it be easier to
just cut the inhumi out of the loop? Especially since the book's other
not-so-big revelation is that the inhumi have a potentially
race-dooming weakness: they must suck the blood of an intelligent
species or remain forever in a pre-sentient, tadpole stage.

Wolfe plays many unreliable narrator games with his protagonists. The
ability to transfer cybernetic pieces of people into other people or
animals makes for some confusion as to who is really talking and who
is "riding" whom. Ultimately we don't care much. The novels leave too
many holes for fans to fill in with theories. The decision to have the
Ark narrative be set in the same timespace as the earlier "New Sun"
stories, two multi-volume series back, seems like a nostalgic impulse
Wolfe shouldn't have succumbed to. Surely a culture that could produce
an Ark to travel between star systems is an energetic young one, not
the miserable Byzantine world of the "New Sun" novels, set on an Earth
so far in the future that the Sun has swollen to Red Giant
proportions.

Wolfe is a good writer but I wouldn't call his work literature so much
as eloquent, intriguingly convoluted post-new wave SF. Wolfe's
penchant for Melville-like parables and analogies exists within a pulp
continuum where faith in technology sits comfortably with faith in the
supernatural. Genre expectations are satisfied; the Ark we thought
irrevocably broken will be repaired to colonize yet another group of
worlds."

-- 
gwern

---

From: DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 15:06:21 +0000

Yes, "ultimately we don't care much." Talk about unreliable---he could have been honest and said "I, Tom Moody."
What I especially don't understand is how the reviewer can see that the Sun books are constructed of literary references a la Nabokov or Borges, like a hall of mirrors, but can't stop from dismissing them because the references are derived from "fanboy" science fiction. It is in all an extraordinarily undeveloped, unreflective, and immature analysis. (And there aren't any "laser swords," whatever that would be.)
I like the Quetzal page though.

--- On Tue, 9/21/10, Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Subject: (urth) Short Sun blog review
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Date: Tuesday, September 21, 2010, 10:05 AM

---

-- 
gwern
_______________________________________________
Urth Mailing List
To post, write urth at urth.net
Subscription/information: http://www.urth.net
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From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:27:31 +0000

>The decision to have the Ark narrative be set in the same timespace as the earlier 
>"New Sun" stories, two multi-volume series back, seems like a nostalgic impulse Wolfe 
>shouldn't have succumbed to. Surely a culture that could producean Ark to travel between 
>star systems is an energetic young one, not the miserable Byzantine world of the "New Sun" 
>novels, set on an Earth so far in the future that the Sun has swollen to Red Giant 
>proportions.
 
This is the section which bothered me the most. Seems to ignore the possibility that The
Whorl was created and sent during the heyday of the First Empire and misses the rather
explicitly explained idea that the sun was reduced in intensity rather rapidly, and likely 
on purpose, at the end of this Empire.
 
Makes me wonder about something. I think I've heard estimates the Whorl is at least 300 years 
old. Typhon was presumably alive on its launching and is still alive when Severian meets him
strapped to his couch. Quite a lifespan.
 
I don't think Typhon is human so it isn't a problem for me but I wonder what others make of this.
A body transplant every 20 years or so to maintain life and youth? Or some other explanation.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:40:57 +0000

Lee,

The Whorl is at leasdt 300 years old internally -- it is at least a
thousand years old in sidereal time. And Typhon is not "still alive"
when Severian meets him; he is either dead or in some sort of
suspended animation. Severian's presence revives him.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: Jack Smith <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 16:56:07 +0000

" I think I've heard estimates the Whorl is at least 300 years
old. Typhon was presumably alive on its launching and is still alive when
Severian meets him
strapped to his couch. Quite a lifespan."

Isn't Typhon dead when found by Severian, who then resurrects him?   Typhon
seems to have dried out after lying on the cold, dry mountain for 1000 or
2000 years (in contrast to Dorcas, who is soggy).

Since the Whorl has traveled near the speed of light on its voyage, time has
slowed down.  So 1000 or 200 years can have passed on Urth, while only 300
years have gone by on the Whorl.

-- 
Best wishes,
Jack
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From: DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 17:05:15 +0000

Exactly. You'd think the reviewer would have checked this before blogging, since he makes a point of it. Instead, he assumes all his assumptions are fact.
Also, the sun is not a red giant in Severian's day, although I certainly assumed so on first reading, until it was explained.

--- On Tue, 9/21/10, Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Subject: (urth) Short Sun blog review
To: urth at lists.urth.net
Date: Tuesday, September 21, 2010, 12:27 PM

>The decision to have the Ark narrative be set in the same timespace as the earlier "New Sun" stories, two multi-volume series back, seems like a nostalgic impulse Wolfe shouldn't have succumbed to. Surely a culture that could producean Ark to travel between star systems is an energetic young one, not the miserable Byzantine world of the "New Sun" novels, set on an Earth so far in the future that the Sun has swollen to Red Giant proportions.

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From: Gwern Branwen <gwern0 at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 17:08:14 +0000

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 12:56 PM, Jack Smith <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com> wrote:
> "?I think I've heard estimates the Whorl is at least 300 years
> Isn't Typhon dead when found by Severian, who then resurrects him? ? Typhon
> slowed down. ?So 1000 or 200 years can have passed on Urth, while only 300

I don't remember if our past discussions went into the technical
details, but it's pretty unlikely the Whorl got any significant
slowdown.

Useful link: http://www.projectrho.com/rocket/rocket3aj.html#relativity

Notice that to get a slowdown of even 1/3, you need to get up to
somewhere around 0.97 or 0.98 _c_. Given that we're talking an entire
hollowed-out asteroid, and one which needs to slow down to rest at the
end... Well, the energy requirements would be absolutely fantastic.
(And I mean fantastic as in, you'd better have an entire other
anti-asteroid made of anti-matter for propellant.)

Dunno if Wolfe took all this into account, though.

-- 
gwern

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 17:27:51 +0000

> Dunno if Wolfe took all this into account, though.

Nor do I. However, this is assuming that the energy sources available
to Typhon are limited to those we know and love in the 21st Century.
The Whorl may be powered by zero point energy or even the infamous
handwaving drive.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 18:11:57 +0000

>Dan'l- Typhon is not "still alive" when Severian meets him; he is either dead or 
>in some sort of suspended animation.
 
>Jack Smith- Isn't Typhon dead when found by Severian, who then resurrects him?   Typhon
>seems to have dried out after lying on the cold, dry mountain for 1000 or 2000 years.
 
Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was not speaking of that encounter. I was speaking
of the encounter in UotNS where Severian meets living monarch, Typhon, still strapped to
his couch, presumably because Piaton still has some voluntary control over his muscles.
 
I am interested in people's thoughts. I think maybe there is some presumption that The Whorl 
was sent right around the time of this encounter? Perhaps, as the blog suggests, it was meant 
to serve as a sort of Ark to preserve humanity in the face of impending destruction. (if so I 
can agree that Typhon and his ilk look upon humanity as Noah did his passengers, as animals)
 
My not fully developed alternate idea would be more along the lines that Blue (and/or maybe Green)
is a sort of home planet for Typhon and his parasite family. Perhaps the Whorl served as a way to 
send an excellent host species back the the Motherland for breeding and exploitation. (humans being
a much better prospect than those pesky, advanced Neighbors).
 
If so, The whorl could have been sent much earlier than the final days of Typhon's reign. Good
question on whether time dilation was invoked so that 300 years of Whorl time equals 1000+ years of
time on Urth.
 
When people on Blue dream-travel to Urth, is there evidence either way that time travel is or isn't
involved? Is it possible or likely that Silkhorn lives in the same exact time as young Severian?

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 18:38:09 +0000

>> Jack Smith-
> Gwern-

In the Urth List Q&A, Wolfe said:

/Q: About how far, really, is the New Sun series set in our future (or 
the future of the previous universe)? How much time elapses between 
Typhon and Severian?/

A: That is never specified in the books. My offhand guess is between 
1000 and 2000 years. I would have to reread the books with care to 
perhaps trim the estimate up a little bit.

However, since Dream-travel can involve Time-travel, all of this might 
be academic as far as the Rajan's visits to Urth go.

u+16b9

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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 18:48:28 +0000

> Lee-
> Sorry, I should have been more clear. I was not speaking of that encounter.
> I was speaking of the encounter in UotNS where Severian meets living monarch,
> Typhon, still strapped to his couch, presumably because Piaton still has
> some voluntary control over his muscles.
>
> I am interested in people's thoughts. I think maybe there is some presumption
> that The Whorl was sent right around the time of this encounter?
> Perhaps, as the blog suggests, it was meant to serve as a sort of Ark
> to preserve humanity in the face of impending destruction. (if so I can agree
> that Typhon and his ilk look upon humanity as Noah did his passengers, as animals)

 From the Urth Q&A again:

Q: /What was Typhon's purpose in launching the Whorl and was the 
Blue/Green [solar] system the intended destination?/ --

A: Knowing Typhon as I do, he probably had at least half a dozen 
purposes; but certainly one of the chief must have been 
self-aggrandizement -- to return human kind to the stars would be a very 
great thing indeed. Yes, the Blue-Green system was the intended destination.

This answer would require some finessing given the evidence in the Book 
and Urth of the New Sun that human-kind is already spread across the 
heavens, that Typhon himself was born or reared extraterrestrially, and 
that at some point he was still free to leave. Perhaps he means 
returning Urth humanity to the stars. The self-aggrandizement must mean 
he wanted to wow the humanity left on Urth, not the humanity being sent. 
Because he deprecates his memory among the colonists.

There is the possibility that Wolfe never really thought hard about why 
Typhon sent out the Whorl.

u+16b9

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From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 18:55:07 +0000

> Typhon sent out the Whorl.

I suspect that the sequence went something like this...

1. Wolfe decided to write what became tBotLS, a book about a
generation ship that actually succeeds in getting its "cargo" to its
destination. (Note that the series was originally called
"Starcrosser's Landing," as indicated in the first HC edition.)

2. Possibly at the same time, he decides to write about "a good man in
a bad religion."

3. The two collide in the story of Silk and his false gods.

4. Wolfe thought, "Wouldn't it be cool if the chief god was
Typhon...?" and thus tied the whole thing to tBotNS.

5. Years later, someone asked him why Typhon sent out the Whorl,
causing him to really think about it for the first time.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 20:26:09 +0000

Since there must have been an ancient period of slowboat colonization of at least several nearby star systems---probably more than Typhon ruled---the mere sending of a colony ship for the first time in chiliads would have been a symbolic act of self-aggrandizement, like any attempt to associate a current regime with past empires.
As such an act, it would have dwarfed the Holy Roman Empire, the Italian Renaissance, and the Mussolini's attempt to restore Rome, among others.

--- On Tue, 9/21/10, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Short Sun blog review
To: urth at lists.urth.net
Date: Tuesday, September 21, 2010, 2:48 PM

    

      
        Jack Smith- 

Lee-

    

    From the Urth Q&A again:

    Q: What was Typhon's purpose in launching the Whorl and was
        the Blue/Green [solar] system the intended destination? ? 

    A: Knowing Typhon as I do, he probably had at least half a dozen
      purposes; but certainly one of the chief must have been
      self-aggrandizement — to return human kind to the stars would be a
      very great thing indeed. Yes, the Blue-Green system was the
      intended destination.

    This answer would require some finessing given the evidence in the
    Book and Urth of the New Sun that human-kind is already spread
    across the heavens, that Typhon himself was born or reared
    extraterrestrially, and that at some point he was still free to
    leave. Perhaps he means returning Urth humanity to the stars. The
    self-aggrandizement must mean he wanted to wow the humanity left on
    Urth, not the humanity being sent. Because he deprecates his memory
    among the colonists.

    There is the possibility that Wolfe never really thought hard about
    why Typhon sent out the Whorl.

    u+16b9

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From: Craig Brewer <cnbrewer at yahoo.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 21:44:51 +0000

I'm a bit confused by his summary:

I don't understand his distinction between "literature" and "genre" here. 
Because there's optimism about technology and optimism about faith, the books 
don't count as literature? So only cynical works count as literature? On the one 
hand, this seems to ignore the fact that there are all kinds of crises of faith 
and ambiguities about the cultural value of technology in the books, especially 
if the inhumi's "evolution" is considered technology from a different 
standpoint. But on the other hand, why does this just become "eloquent, 
intriguingly convoluted post-new wave SF" if it doesn't ultimately belittle 
technology and/or show that faith can't exist alongside that?

I just find the line of thought here particularly weird. It seems to come down 
to: I didn't like the books' take on the themes, so I won't value it with the 
term 'literature'.

---

From: Mo Holkar <lists at ukg.co.uk>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 22:03:21 +0000

>Typhon...?" and thus tied the whole thing to tBotNS.

At that point, the answer really could have been "No, maybe it 
wouldn't actually", imo.

When, on reading the books, it became apparent, my reaction wasn't 
that delightful feeling of opening up of possibilities and of 
ideational space, but more a wary sinking feeling. I was slightly 
mollified by the clever stuff that turned up on revisiting Urth, but 
even so I feel it would probably have been more conceptually 
satisfactory to have kept the worldspaces separate.

But is that just me? Do the rest of you feel that it all ties 
together brilliantly?

Mo

# ~ # ~ #

WolfeWiki -- a wiki about Gene Wolfe
http://www.wolfewiki.com/pmwiki/

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 21 Sep 2010 23:08:44 +0000

>> Dan'l -
> Mo -
> satisfactory to have kept the worldspaces separate. But is that just 
> me? Do the rest of you feel that it all ties together brilliantly?
>

Given the reoccurring themes of transformation and an autopsy of the 
nature of the human soul, it is useful that one of the Whorl's gods has 
been already been met by the reader in his/her original state. Other 
than that, Pas could have been anyone...unless Silk is a clone of 
someone _else_ referred to in "New Sun" (ahem). In that case, "Long Sun" 
is like "Urth of the New Sun". It offers additional (perhaps vain) helps 
to divine the original story.

Anyway, putting Typhon in the Whorl also gets Wolfe's publishers off his 
back about writing another Urth novel.

u+16b9

---

From: Matthew Knight <jacobeiserman at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 00:46:55 +0000

I've never been a fan of this rhetorical strategy, and judging that we have
all chosen to join a mailing dedicated to an SF author, I imagine that I'm
merely speaking to the choir here.  But separating the wheat from the chaff
according to genre distinctions, to me, belongs in a now-discredited world
of presumed canons and aesthetic distinctions based on assumptions that have
never been critically examined.  Hope my post-structuralist grad school
confusion isn't intruding too obviously here.

Two problems: why doesn't Wolfe qualify as literature--what is the
definition of literature and according to whom?  Doesn't this artfully use
language in a way that provides insight into the human condition through the
portrayal of well-drawn characters, however the fantastic the situation?
And secondly, even if we accept the arbitrary division that literature
refers to realistic and SF refers to (as yet) unrealistic (problematic for
all sorts of reasons, but...yeah), who decides that only the realistic
approach is legitimate?  Can't SF arise to greatness on its own terms?

Don't have time to get into this more, and I'm sure many blog posts, fanzine
articles, and dissertations have already been and will be written on these
topics.

Regards,
Matt

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From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 01:00:22 +0000

Matthew Knight wrote:
> refers to realistic and SF refers to (as yet) unrealistic (problematic
> for all sorts of reasons, but...yeah), who decides that only the
> realistic approach is legitimate?

Wolfe himself has answered that eloquently.

According to such clever 19th century definitions of 'Literature', the 
Odissey or Hamlet or pretty much anything in the history of Literature isn't 
'Literature'.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 02:36:26 +0000

also disagree with Moody in calling the "return" to the Urth-Sun 
universe "nostalgic." Why should Wolfe create a new universe every time 
he writes a novel?

What I find interesting about BotNS in the context of the Urth-Sun 
universe is that we see it all through Severian's telling. It's like 
peeping through a keyhole. But there is a whole universe out there that 
Severian does not know and that does not know Severian. Typhon is one of 
those phenomena, except for a brief time.

So what if there is no legend of the Whorl for Severian to report? It 
had no role in his story, and is merely an inconsequential and 
inevitable part of the backdrop. We know Typhon ruled worlds and wanted 
to rule more. We know there had to be colonists. The universe is vast.

Trying to find concordances between LS/SS and NS is useful and fun if it 
uncovers facts that are useful and fun, but NOT finding concordance is 
evidence of very little by itself. For me, it hardly needs to tie 
together at all, let alone brilliantly.

On 9/21/2010 6:03 PM, Mo Holkar wrote:
> But is that just me? Do the rest of you feel that it all ties together 
> brilliantly?
>
> Mo
>
>
> # ~ # ~ #
>
> avast! Antivirus: Inbound message clean.
> Virus Database (VPS): 100921-1, 09/21/2010
> Tested on: 9/21/2010 6:28:30 PM
> avast! - copyright (c) 1988-2010 ALWIL Software.
> http://www.avast.com
>
>
>
>

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 03:11:55 +0000

> suspended animation. Severian's presence revives him.

Typhon/Piaton would be the beneficiary of the natural mummifying process 
of the Andes' higher elevations, that have preserved so many Incan 
bodies and lesser remains for us to find. His pause in reference to this 
may be because of the negative associations with the primitive native 
people, or out of vain revulsion at what his ruler face must have looked 
like in that state.

Typhon's age is a puzzle. He must have been fairly old for some organs 
to be beyond repair with the impressive technologies still available on 
Urth, but my suggestion that he looks like a conventional octagenarian 
turned out to have little support. Typhon's sub-venerable cosmetic age 
might be due to just that: cosmetic treatments, though as I recall it 
has often been the style among Hellenic and Roman era dictatorships to 
emphasize the late middle age of the ruler in coinage and statuary as a 
symbol of wisdom and stability.

I wonder if the question of time frames might be addressed by tarting up 
my old PLANET OF THE APES hypothesis with a reverse plot-twist: Instead 
of Green and Blue being Lune and Ushas, maybe the conventionally driven 
Whorl was intended as some kind of round-trip sleeper mission for the 
benefit of Typhon's plans for the Urth, but the Outsider/the Yesodis 
redirected it to Blue and Green instead, so that it serves the 
Increate's purpose as a mission mission to the Inhumi and the Neighbors.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana
< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 03:50:31 +0000

> Because he deprecates his memory among the colonists.

Lemur said:
"A certain ruler, a man who had the strength to rule alone and so called
himself the monarch, built our whorl, Patera. It was to be a message from
himself to the universe." (LAKE, 298)

The people on Urth would never see the _Whorl_, never receive the message.

Typhon was raw ego. Mt. Typhon's sole purpose was to flaunt his face and
gratify his ego. He did not deprecate his memory or that of his family among
the colonists, he just changed the family names to reflect the new reality
of their digitized existence as gods in Mainframe. On Urth they had been
flesh and blood, and the first walking Cargo on the ship had known and
remembered that, until their memories were tampered with. To go from royalty
to deity is hardly a step down in status.

-Roy

---

From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 06:04:47 +0000

Jeff Wilson wrote:
[snip]
> Increate's purpose as a mission mission to the Inhumi and the Neighbors.

The ship was never intended for a round-trip mission. The internal time that
passed since launch was 332 years, as indicated by the date on that letter
that Quetzal had sent out to all the manteions endorsing Silk as Calde. The
infrastructure had been failing for decades; the retreating lake, messed up
weather, the Long Sun on the fritz, few living civilian chems, few working
glasses, etc.

Hammerstone figured that Pas had planned for the ship and things in it to
last for 200 or maybe 250 years. At the time he spoke, the ship had been
cooling its heals in the Blue-Green system for at least thirty years, since
the rebellion in Mainframe by the gods who didn't want their worshippers to
go away and leave them.

So much time had passed on Urth since Typhon died (unfettered, btw) behind
his curtain on Mt. Typhon that Nessus had grown far beyond the part where
Rigoglio had once lived, such that the neighborhood was in ruins and long
abandoned.

Wolfe said in the List Q & A that the Blue-Green system was the ship's
intended destination. It wasn't designed to make a round-trip.

-Roy

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:54:06 +0000

David Stockhoff wrote (22-09-2010 03:36):
> I guess disagree with the "cool" proposition in the first place. I also
> disagree with Moody in calling the "return" to the Urth-Sun universe
> "nostalgic." Why should Wolfe create a new universe every time he writes
>  a novel?
>
> So what if there is no legend of the Whorl for Severian to report? It had
> no role in his story, and is merely an inconsequential and inevitable
> part of the backdrop. We know Typhon ruled worlds and wanted to rule
> more. We know there had to be colonists. The universe is vast.
>

I agree with everything - and IMO much more 'tying' would make it all feel a
bit artificial. What next, turn the books into an annotated cross-referenced
timeline and ditch the narration altogether? The narration is part of the
work. We have Severian in 1st person, maybe a different Severian in 1st
person, a Horn about Silk in 3rd person, and a Horn who is also Silk in 1st
person. Not to mention all the storytellers. All these have their strengths
and limitations, *on purpose*.

I also don't think the intent of the books is for someone to uncover their
'secret'. They are full of materials amenable to decipering, but I don't
think they are 'clues' as people like to refer to it. I think they obviously
hint at more complex readings, but I don't think their reason to be is to
point to one grand solution, which IMO is an impoverished way to look at it.
They enable discussion, speculation and layering, and I think those
processes, *where enriching*, rather than any specific result, are what matters.

During tyhe Agia discussion I mentioned we all agreed everything Wolfe wrote
was extraordinary, and had Jerry protest. I never got the leisure to reply
to that message and will leave any ideas to the next time Agia appears, but
I'd like to clarify, and I'll make use of Google's dictionary to do so,

ex?traor?di?nar?y
1. Very unusual or remarkable.
2. Unusually great.

that what I meant was the first sense. Of course my opinion of what I know
of Wolfe's work is quite high, but the bit I had intended to mean we'd all
agree on was that his writing is never ordinary - or, at least I've never
met any work of his that followed customary patterns. In all of it there is 
a naturalistic care with the meta-diegesis that I just don't find almost 
anywhere else, and nowhere with the same coherence. I think that's an 
objective assessment.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:04:33 +0000

> Roy-

Isn't this like saying that the Apollo lunar missions would never be 
seen by Americans or Soviets or the other nations it was intended to 
impress? It certainly isn't true for the Apollo missions. Why would it 
necessarily be so for the Whorl mission?

> [snip]To go from royalty

To go from royalty to deity is a step up. But have the new worshipers 
FORGET your deeds as royalty is something that would be done only by 
someone ashamed of his flesh-and-blood deeds  -- unless it was 
absolutely necessary. Since Typhon probably does not fit the bill for 
the first category, he must be in the second.

There is no evidence that the non-cargo passengers on the Whorl 
worshiped the Nine. They saw the for what they were -- system interfaces 
that had gotten buggy. Only the wakers and sleepers had their memories 
tinkered with AFAIK. So the system of gods was a practical issue, just 
as Lemur described it.

u+16b9

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:20:24 +0000

James Wynn wrote (22-09-2010 16:04):
> Roy-
>> Lemur said: "A certain ruler, a man who had the strength to rule alone
>> and so called himself the monarch, built our whorl, Patera. It was to
>> be a message from himself to the universe." (LAKE, 298)
>>

The Apollo missions wouldn't be as impressive if they hadn't really been
shown to reach the moon. The landings on Blue/Green weren't televised back
to Urth.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:44:41 +0000

>> James Wynn-
> Ant?nio Pedro Marques-

Let's try a different analogy. Do the governments of Pakistan and Iran 
need to use a nuclear weapon for their nuclear weapon projects to 
inspire patriotism?

Imagine footage of the construction of Whorl...the carving of the 
asteroid, the building of the cities, the prospect of sending thousands 
of Urthlings to a distant planet that could be freely portrayed as a 
fertile Eden, a lucrative opportunity, and a Land of Adventure. The 
actual landing of the colonists was almost irrelevant. What mattered  
was the huge propagandist art based on the construction project and the 
/aspirations/ of its purpose. The Whorl would be a monument...the Hoover 
Dam, the Golden Gate Bridge, and Mt. Rushmore to the third power. It 
would definitely capture the imagination of the masses and *portray 
Typhon's rule as one of affluence, technology, and limitless power*.

In Lan Wright's "The Last Hope of the Earth" (which has far to many 
parallels to the LS/SS to be coincidental), the colonization project was 
the central support for Earth morale even though no one on Earth had 
seen any of the actual colonies. Typhon would not have been saddled with 
/their/ limitations. And to the extent that realities of the project was 
less than inspiring, the Whorl was far enough away that he could make 
stuff up.

u+16b9

---

From: DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 15:58:09 +0000

I agree. Point taken about the probable lack of television exposure as we know it, but an even better comparison might be to the Tower of Babel---whose building was an act of hubris, but which could be looked on with genuine pride by all who saw or heard of it. It's the kind of thing that cements the reputation of a king as a statesman, or an emperor as a god.
Maybe the peasants of the time didn't know or care, but the important people would have seen what was going on and understood why it was important. No king can be overthrown who actually restores the glory of a national past.
I wonder how much the glasses were able to transmit back home during the voyage, or if they were designed to do so at all.

--- On Wed, 9/22/10, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Short Sun blog review
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Date: Wednesday, September 22, 2010, 11:44 AM

> shown to reach the moon. The landings on Blue/Green weren't televised back

Let's try a different analogy. Do the governments of Pakistan and Iran need to use a nuclear weapon for their nuclear weapon projects to inspire patriotism?

Imagine footage of the construction of Whorl...the carving of the asteroid, the building of the cities, the prospect of sending thousands of Urthlings to a distant planet that could be freely portrayed as a fertile Eden, a lucrative opportunity, and a Land of Adventure. The actual landing of the colonists was almost irrelevant. What mattered? was the huge propagandist art based on the construction project and the /aspirations/ of its purpose. The Whorl would be a monument...the Hoover Dam, the Golden Gate Bridge, and Mt. Rushmore to the third power. It would definitely capture the imagination of the masses and *portray Typhon's rule as one of affluence, technology, and limitless power*.

In Lan Wright's "The Last Hope of the Earth" (which has far to many parallels to the LS/SS to be coincidental), the colonization project was the central support for Earth morale even though no one on Earth had seen any of the actual colonies. Typhon would not have been saddled with /their/ limitations. And to the extent that realities of the project was less than inspiring, the Whorl was far enough away that he could make stuff up.

u+16b9
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From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 16:33:55 +0000

James Wynn wrote (22-09-2010 16:44):
> Antonio wrote:
>> James Wynn wrote:
>>> Roy-
>>>> Lemur said: "A certain ruler, a man who had the strength to rule
>>>> alone and so called himself the monarch, built our whorl, Patera.
>>>> It was to be a message from himself to the universe." (LAKE, 298)
>>>>
>>> James Wynn- Isn't this like saying that the Apollo lunar missions
>>> would never be seen by Americans or Soviets or the other nations it
>>> was intended to impress? It certainly isn't true for the Apollo
>>> missions. Why would it necessarily be so for the Whorl mission?
>>
>> Ant?nio Pedro Marques- The Apollo missions wouldn't be as impressive if
>> they hadn't really been shown to reach the moon. The landings on
>> Blue/Green weren't televised back to Urth.
>
> need to use a nuclear weapon for their nuclear weapon projects to inspire
> patriotism?
>
> actual landing of the colonists was almost irrelevant. What mattered was
>  the huge propagandist art based on the construction project and the
> /aspirations/ of its purpose.

If you ask me, it's quite the reverse. The only thing that mattered would be
the landing, otherwise it's just a massive waste of taxpayers' money. At
least that's how I see people reacting to every huge speding in public
works. Once it results in something, it's great. Before that, it's a white 
elephant in the making. I'm also not so sure people would be thrilled at the 
idea of their fellow urthlings being 'cargo'.

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 16:36:13 +0000

DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote (22-09-2010 16:58):

> I wonder how much the glasses were able to transmit back home during the
>  voyage, or if they were designed to do so at all.

That reminds me of Helliconia and the Avernus.

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 16:49:46 +0000

2010/9/22 Ant?nio Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>:

> works.

That's a very modernistic/democratic approach ... people in feudal
societies don't wonder where their taxes are going, they are grateful
they aren't higher.

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:03:28 +0000

Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (22-09-2010 17:49):
> 2010/9/22 Ant?nio Pedro Marques<entonio at gmail.com>:
>

Don't know... taxes used to go to tangible things or waste. The Whorl is not 
waste but isn't much tangible either. It's clearly something that is visible 
- like, say, a cathedral - but unlike a cathedral, it doesn't serve its 
purpose just by being there.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:16:08 +0000

>> Dan'l-
> Anotonio-
> Don't know... taxes used to go to tangible things or waste. The Whorl 
> is not waste but isn't much tangible either. It's clearly something 
> that is visible - like, say, a cathedral - but unlike a cathedral, it 
> doesn't serve its purpose just by being there. 

As far as improving the life of any Urthling or colonist, it was surely 
a tremendous waste. As a monument it was merely tremendous, which is 
what one desires of a monument.

To repeat my analogy, the Pakistani and Iranian nuclear weapons programs 
will not  improve the lives of any average citizen of those nations, nor 
have they so far. That is not why they are popular there (and they are).

u+16b9

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:22:38 +0000

>> Anotonio-
>> [The Whorl is ]  clearly something that is visible - like, say, a 
>> cathedral - but unlike a cathedral, it doesn't serve its purpose just 
>> by being there. 

Also, the Whorl is not going to "just be there". It's going to leave and 
carry to the heavens the patriotic aspirations of the Urth. And Typhon 
becomes "The Calde Who Returned Us to the Stars".

But since he died shortly after and Urth was soon divided into regions 
of alien influence, it all was irrelevant.

u+16b9

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:27:14 +0000

> what one desires of a monument.

But a monument serves its purpose by being there. The Whorl wasn't meant to 
stay there.

> have they so far. That is not why they are popular there (and they are).

And what popularity would they enjoy if they were sent to somewhere out of 
reach?

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:45:08 +0000

>> James Wynn -
> Antonio -
> But a monument serves its purpose by being there. The Whorl wasn't 
> meant to stay there.
>
>> James Wynn -
> Antonio -
> And what popularity would they enjoy if they were sent to somewhere 
> out of reach?

They *are* out of reach. They will never be used. They will never be 
seen. Their locations will never be known. They are pure ideals of their 
nations as Great Powers. They are far worse monuments than the Whorl. 
When the Whorl leaves orbit around Sol, in the minds of Typhon's 
subjects it has already arrived at its destination. Think of the 
propaganda films! Every painting of Typhon would portray him as a 
colossus straddling the cities of the Whorl, his head (only one I 
presume) surrounded by fabulous planets. Those left behind on Urth would 
greatly envy the lot of those lucky enough to be selected for the trip. 
Everything is anticipation and imagination.

u+16b9

---

From: DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 17:48:07 +0000

Indeed!

--- On Wed, 9/22/10, Ant?nio Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com> wrote:

From: Ant?nio Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Short Sun blog review
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Date: Wednesday, September 22, 2010, 12:36 PM

DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote (22-09-2010 16:58):

>? voyage, or if they were designed to do so at all.

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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 19:08:53 +0000

James Wynn wrote:
____________
inspire patriotism?<

asteroid, the building of the cities, the prospect of sending thousands
of Urthlings to a distant planet that could be freely portrayed as a
fertile Eden, a lucrative opportunity, and a Land of Adventure.<
____________

If that were the scenario, then people should have been clamoring to go.
Mamelta said: "We had to volunteer. They were--you couldn't say no." (LAKE,
chap. 9,  251)

___________
> The
Typhon's rule as one of affluence, technology, and limitless power*.<
___________

There isn't the least suggestion in the Urth Cycle that the Whorl project
even existed, not even when Severian was there while Typhon was still alive.
If there had been a massive propaganda campaign to promote the project, it
was a monumental failure.

I realize that the lack of evidence for a propaganda campaign in the Urth
Cycle doen't prove anything, but neither does your supposition of such a
campaign prove that it existed.

-Roy

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 20:21:11 +0000

> Me -
> Imagine footage of the construction of Whorl...the carving of the asteroid,
> the building of the cities, the prospect of sending thousands
> fertile Eden, a lucrative opportunity, and a Land of Adventure.

>> Mamelta said: "We had to volunteer. They were--you couldn't say no." (LAKE,

This only means that the desire to go or stay was irrelevant. But it is 
simply not conceivable that there were not more people on Urth 
_willing_  to go (people who would gladly have traded places those who 
were selected to be Cargo or Sleepers) than there were slots to go. But 
_wanting_ to go was not the criteria. The Whorl was probably not such a 
bad place to live when it was first launched with plenty of chems to do 
the work. The use of cards as money might suggest that money wasn't even 
seen as necessary initially because the designers did not expect 
scarcity of basic essentials. Still, a young woman with prospects on 
Urth would probably not want to go. An established member of the ruling 
class would not want to go. I seriously doubt that any among Typhon's 
court were clamoring to go. They went out of duty or they went because 
Typhon (or some sub-ruler ordered to procure people with defined 
criteria) was ready to be rid of them. Members of the ruling classes 
rarely volunteer for war if there is a reduced chance of coming back to 
medals and accolades.

> was a monumental failure.

Two reasons: 1) Wolfe had not invented the Whorl when he wrote of 
Severian's encounters with Typhon.
2) Typhon died shortly after the Whorl was launched, and his empire was 
quickly divided between competing alien powers who had no interest in 
promoting Typhon as a Great Man who had Returned Humanity to the Stars. 
You know all this.

> campaign prove that it existed.

I never claimed that there was anything detailing Typhon's reasons for 
the Whorl Project. Wolfe has already implied that he didn't consider 
that question much himself. I was merely responding to the following:

> Roy-
> The people on Urth would never see the_Whorl_, never receive the message.
> of their digitized existence as gods in Mainframe.

I was trying to show that the Whorl _would have been_ a useful monument 
to Typhon's ego for his subjects on Urth, even though I argue that it 
was not really much of a monument to his ego for those who left.

Incidentally, there is a conversation between the Rajan and Hound that I 
think touches on some of this:

    "You're saying that everybody could have been asleep? All of us? No
    houses and no people, just trees and animals?"
    "No, I'm saying Pas must have considered that and rejected it as
    unworkable, or at least undesirable."
    Hound nodded. "He'd have had nobody to worship him."
    "That's true, though I'm not sure it was a consideration. If it
    didn't seem so impious, I'd say now that the Chapter and the
    manteions seem almost to have been a joke, that Pas made himself our
    chief god largely because it amused him.
    [snip the parable of the farmer meeting Pas in Mainframe]
    "Pas wished to mold and guide us; and for him to do it, we had to be
    awake. As our chief god, he was ideally situated, though the false
    memories given the sleepers may  have been intended to serve the
    same purpose. Like the farmer we complain of storms, but Pas must
    have foreseen that there would be storms--and things far worse--on
    the new whorls. How could we cope with them if we never saw snow, or
    a wind storm?"

    One thing though. I have said that Typhon deprecated the memory of
    his Terrestrial achievements among the colonists so they would not
    remember who sent them and try to return. An obvious question would
    be, then why did he mess with the memories of the sleepers?
    ~ page 131 of RTTW pb.

There's more as well, including an argument for why Pas's construction 
of the Whorl was not purely malevolent or egotistical ("Pas was made by 
the Outsider"). Remember that _Pas_ could not be a  god on the colonized 
planets. Even the Writings made it clear that the Nine were only gods on 
the Whorl.

~ u+16b9

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From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 21:24:12 +0000

Regarding humanity returning to the stars: this theme comes up quite a
lot in the _New Sun_ cycle - sometimes in those very terms, though at
other times people say 'Men of Urth' or the like instead of
'humankind' . Vodalus, at least ostensibly, has it as his ideal. The
Autarch says it can't be achieved until humans change - he has one
idea of how they should change, while the Ascians have another.
Malrubius seems to say that the New Sun marks the beginning of the
process by which humans will return to the stars.

How can we square this with the passages that imply that humans are
already out there among the stars, left over from the first empire?
Perhaps 'returning to the stars' should be taken to mean not just
being on other planets, but actually travelling among the stars (under
their own steam, rather than as crew on ships captained by
Hierodules). It may be that the humans who are out there now are as
isolated as those on Urth. We should also consider Severian's
speculation that the people on other planets will have evolved away
from the form we know; they may not now be what we would immedately
recognise as human.

Typhon: first, can someone point me to the evidence that he was not
born/raised on Urth? I'm not sure what the source for this is.

Typhon says 'I ruled this planet and many more'. Severian''s immediate
thought is that he is lying. I'm not sure if there is anything in _New
Sun_ itself that proves he is telling the truth. When you take _Long
Sun_ into account, he must have had some space-travelling capacity to
be able to launch the Whorl in the first place, but this might be
restricted to the solar system. Even if you take 'many planets'
seriously, I would think, say, twenty would count as many in this
context, so he need only have ruled the solar system and a few
neighbouring ones.

As for the bit about the ships on which he might have left having
gone, this suggests to me not a wide empire, in which ships would
surely be constantly coming and going, but a once-for-all expedition,
that once gone will not return. So it fits in quite well with the
story of the Whorl, though of course the precise form the expedtion
takes isn't made clear here. This may also link up with Valeria's
story - when her family moved into the Citadel they were 'waiting to
leave Urth with the autarch of their time' - again this suggests a
specific expedition.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 22:01:32 +0000

> Andrew Mason -

For me, it is based on the story of "Spring Wind". I was rather 
surprised to discover that it was at all controversial that "Spring 
Wind" referred to Typhon. But I suppose there is little about these 
stories that is not controversial. If it seems reasonable to you that 
Spring Wind = Typhon, then the obvious implication is that he is 
extra-terrestrial :

Sword of the Lictor, Chapter 19
"*On a mountain top beyond the shores of Urth* there once lived a lovely 
woman
named Early Summer. She was the queen of that land, but her king was a 
strong,
unforgiving man, and because she was jealous of him he was jealous of her in
turn, and killed any man he believed to be her lover.
One day Early Summer was walking in her garden when she saw a most beautiful
blossom of a kind wholly new to her. It was redder than any rose and more
sweetly perfumed, but its strong stalk was thornless and smooth as 
ivory. She
plucked it and carried it to a secluded spot, and as she reclined there
contemplating it, it grew to seem to her no blossom at all but such a 
lover as
she had longed for, powerful and yet as tender as a kiss. Certain of the 
juices
of the plant entered her and she conceived. She told the king, however, 
that the
child was his, and since she was well guarded, he believed her.
It was a boy, and by his mother's wish he was called *Spring Wind*. [snip]
Now it happened that the chances of war often brought Spring Wind to 
Urth, and
there he came to know of two brothers who were kings.
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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 23:13:39 +0000

up the possibility that he's from somewhere else, not to mention that 
the source of his powers is still unknown.

How many Roman emperors were born in Italy once the capitol shifted 
east---even before then? Very few, if any. Diocletian never set foot in 
Rome. I am not sure about the example of Byzantium.

On 9/22/2010 6:01 PM, James Wynn wrote:
> "*On a mountain top beyond the shores of Urth* there once lived a 
> lovely woman
> she had longed for, powerful and yet as tender as a kiss. Certain of 
> the juices
> of the plant entered her and she conceived. She told the king, 
> however, that the

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 23:17:46 +0000

Again, think of the thousands of slaves that would have been required to 
build the Tower of Babel or any other great wonder of the world. Think 
of how Australia was settled by the scum of Britain. This would have 
been little different. It was a project built on brute force.

On 9/22/2010 4:21 PM, James Wynn wrote:
> This only means that the desire to go or stay was irrelevant. But it 
> is simply not conceivable that there were not more people on Urth 
> were selected to be Cargo or Sleepers) than there were slots to go. 
> But _wanting_ to go was not the criteria. The Whorl was probably not 
> such a bad place to live when it was first launched with plenty of 
> chems to do the work. The use of cards as money might suggest that 
> money wasn't even seen as necessary initially because the designers 
> did not expect scarcity of basic essentials. Still, a young woman with 
> prospects on Urth would probably not want to go. An established member 
> of the ruling class would not want to go. I seriously doubt that any 
> among Typhon's court were clamoring to go. They went out of duty or 
> they went because Typhon (or some sub-ruler ordered to procure people 
> with defined criteria) was ready to be rid of them. Members of the 
> ruling classes rarely volunteer for war if there is a reduced chance 
> of coming back to medals and accolades.
>

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Wed, 22 Sep 2010 23:28:26 +0000

I don't see anything in that story to suggest that Spring Wind was Typhon.  It does appear that Spring Wind is extraterrestrial.  He fought on Urth, and sometimes his armies caused devastation among humankind (and food for wolves), at least locally.  But in the long history of Urth there must have been many such.  Where is the indication that Spring Wind conquered or ruled the planet?  What characteristics, other than his being a reasonably dominant warrior/leader, and some doubtful etymology, induce you to associate him with Typhon?

- Gerry Quinn

  From: James Wynn 
Andrew Mason - 

  For me, it is based on the story of "Spring Wind". I was rather surprised to discover that it was at all controversial that "Spring Wind" referred to Typhon. But I suppose there is little about these stories that is not controversial. If it seems reasonable to you that Spring Wind = Typhon, then the obvious implication is that he is extra-terrestrial :

  Sword of the Lictor, Chapter 19
  "On a mountain top beyond the shores of Urth there once lived a lovely woman
  named Early Summer. She was the queen of that land, but her king was a strong,
  unforgiving man, and because she was jealous of him he was jealous of her in
  turn, and killed any man he believed to be her lover.
  One day Early Summer was walking in her garden when she saw a most beautiful
  blossom of a kind wholly new to her. It was redder than any rose and more
  sweetly perfumed, but its strong stalk was thornless and smooth as ivory. She
  plucked it and carried it to a secluded spot, and as she reclined there
  contemplating it, it grew to seem to her no blossom at all but such a lover as
  she had longed for, powerful and yet as tender as a kiss. Certain of the juices
  of the plant entered her and she conceived. She told the king, however, that the
  child was his, and since she was well guarded, he believed her.
  It was a boy, and by his mother's wish he was called Spring Wind. [snip]
  Now it happened that the chances of war often brought Spring Wind to Urth, and
  there he came to know of two brothers who were kings.
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From: Roy C. Lackey <rclackey at stic.net>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 06:47:31 +0000

> > The people on Urth would never see the_Whorl_, never receive the
message.

And I was refering, in that line, to Lemur's comment:
"A certain ruler, a man who had the strength to rule alone and so called
himself the monarch, built our whorl, Patera. It was to be a message from
himself to the universe." (LAKE, 298)

> was not really much of a monument to his ego for those who left.

Wolfe's answer in the Q & A was:
" Knowing Typhon as I do, he probably had at least half a dozen  purposes;
but certainly one of the chief must have been self-aggrandizement -- to
return human kind to the stars would be a very great thing indeed." Lemur's
comment speaks directly to the self-aggrandizement issue. The universe is a
little bigger than Urth, and Urth itself would never receive that message.
Therefore, the message Typhon sent to the universe by launching the _Whorl_
was intended for a larger audience than the people of Urth, who already
lived under his tyranical rule.

> planets. Even the Writings made it clear that the Nine were only gods on

The list of characters in RTTW says Typhon was "the ancient tyrant whose
personality became PAS". Whatever rehabilitation of character he *may* have
undergone in Mainframe as Pas has no bearing on the *fact* that he was an
egotistical tyrant when he was scanned and when he conceived, constructed,
stocked and launched his "message from himself to the universe".

-Roy

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 08:58:51 +0000

> Roy C. Lackey-
> personality became PAS". Whatever rehabilitation of character he*may*  have
> undergone in Mainframe as Pas has no bearing on the*fact*  that he was an

I'm not convinced he was rehabilitated at all. I have heard Wolfe say 
repeatedly that the best villain is someone who falls just short of 
being a hero. I think Pas is Wolfe's alternate take on Typhon. 
Severian's experience with Typhon is one POV. But Severian as The 
Destroyer of Urth was the POV of the sailors on the Time ship.

Another take on Typhon IMO is William Ries. Refer to Gideon Chase's view 
on Evil.

u+16b9
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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 10:20:48 +0000

> Gerry Quinn-
> I don't see anything in that story to suggest that Spring Wind was 
> Typhon.  It does appear that Spring Wind is extraterrestrial.  He 
> fought on Urth, and sometimes his armies caused devastation among 
> humankind (and food for wolves), at least locally.  But in the long 
> history of Urth there must have been many such.  Where is the 
> indication that Spring Wind conquered or ruled the planet?  What 
> characteristics, other than his being a reasonably dominant 
> warrior/leader, and some doubtful etymology, induce you to associate 
> him with Typhon?

I think the etymology is not dubious at all. To me, it's a fairly overt 
reference. Not at all subtle. It's analogous to, say, having a story in 
the Brown book that refers to a black cloaked figure named The One Who 
Divides.

Demanding more evidence than this from a story that didn't even overtly 
identify Severian as the Conciliator or the New Sun seems to be 
demanding something one would never expect to get.

u+16b9

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From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 11:52:41 +0000

James Wynn wrote (23-09-2010 11:20):
>> Typhon (...) What characteristics, other than his being a reasonably
>> dominant warrior/leader, and some doubtful etymology, induce you to
>> associate him with Typhon?
>
> I think the etymology is not dubious at all (...)

I should emphasize that it's the actual etymology of 'typhoon' that is
dubious, but that is no reason why it shouldn't be used in the story, or in
fact it's one more reason why it should.

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 12:27:40 +0000

I think the etymology is not dubious at all. To me, it's a fairly overt reference. Not at all subtle. It's analogous to, say, having a story in the Brown book that refers to a black cloaked figure named The One Who Divides. 

  Demanding more evidence than this from a story that didn't even overtly identify Severian as the Conciliator or the New Sun seems to be demanding something one would never expect to get.

But typhoons ae not particularly associated with Spring (they occur year round and in fact it is in Spring that they are least frequent), so all we have is 'Wind', which is hardly a strong connection.  Spring Wind has a son Frog, and the story is mostly about him.  There is no reference to his father in the rest of the story.  You'd think if Frog's dad ruled Urth and other worlds and had another family, it would have been mentioned somewhere.

"Wind" and "fighting" don't add up to a definition of Typhon, in my view.  (Wikipedia tells me there's a Marvel Comics superhero called Wind Warrior, for example.)  Typhon's characteristic signature is a second head; he even keeps it when translated to digitised form.  If Spring Wind had any indication of a second head, I'd have no problems with the identification.

I don't agree with the concept that everybody in BotNS has to be everybody else in disguise.  

- Gerry Quinn

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From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:03:45 +0000

>Gerry Quinn: I don't see anything in that story to suggest that Spring Wind was Typhon...
>typhoons ae not particularly associated with Spring

I don't think typhoons are at all relevant. The Greek monster Typhon was mostly
characterized by being multi-headed and dragon/snake-like. But his Egyptian
cognate, Typhon-Set was not quite as monstrous and very explicitly associated
with hot desert winds and drought.  Sirocco storms are most frequent in spring and 
autumn. I note that drought and hot winds are a part of the Long Sun story and perhaps
serve a Pas/Typhon purpose.
 
The Naviscaput story is explicitly associated by Severian with Abaia. By parallel I could 
see the possibility that Spring Wind is a benign name and story associated with Typhon
and his origin. Gets a solid "maybe" in my book.

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:44:23 +0000

From: "Lee Berman" <severiansola at hotmail.com>

> autumn.

Not a strong 'Spring' association.  And if we lose the 'typhoon' 
association, the wind connection is even weaker.

> I note that drought and hot winds are a part of the Long Sun story and 
> perhaps

The drought (as well as any unexpectedly hot winds) is a consequence of the 
blockage of some of the Whorl's ventilation tunnels over time; it is an 
indication of the decrepitude of the Whorl.  The Whorl as built by 
Pas/Typhon did not suffer from drought.

> and his origin. Gets a solid "maybe" in my book.

Certainly, Wolfe is inclined to put in such references.  If there were 
strong associations between Spring Wind and Typhon, such as a suggestion of 
two heads, I'd credit it.  But I think it's a stretch to read an 
identification into what we see here.

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Jack Smith <jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 22:17:52 +0000

A few points about the speed of the Whorl;

1.  You have to travel very fast to get to any stars because of their great
distance.   To reach even the closest star in 300 years, you would need a
speed of about 1.5% of light (10,000,000 MPH).  You would need some
fantastic source of energy to get the Whorl to even 1.5%,  a source that
will only be found in the future.  Wolfe says the long sun is powered by
nuclear fusion, but he doesn't tell us what propels the Whorl.  I think that
is because he knows that no such power source exists yet.

2.  95% of light speed requires even more energy, of course.  But as long as
we are tapping into an unknown power source, we might as well go as fast as
we can.

3.  A travel speed close to the speed of light explains why only 300 years
have elapsed on the Whorl while 1000 to 2000 years have gone by on Urth.
  At 95% of speed of light, Whorl time would be 300 years for 1000 Urth
years.   At 99% of speed of light, Whorl time would be 300 years for 2000
Urth years.

4.  Of course, it's more complicated than traveling the whole way at one
speed.   You have to accelerate the ship up to a high speed, and then
decelerate to stop at Blue-Green system.  The rate of acceleration has to be
slow, or the cargo would be pressed against the back of the ship.

Acceleration  would have to be very low.    At an acceleration of 1/100 G,
it would take about 97 years to get up to about speed of light.  You could
then coast for 100 years, and then decelerate for 97 years,   making a total
time of about 300 years.

On Tue, Sep 21, 2010 at 2:38 PM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> *Q: About how far, really, is the New Sun series set in our future (or the
> future of the previous universe)? How much time elapses between Typhon and
> Severian?*
>
> A: That is never specified in the books. My offhand guess is between 1000
> and 2000 years. I would have to reread the books with care to perhaps trim
> the estimate up a little bit.
>
> However, since Dream-travel can involve Time-travel, all of this might be
> academic as far as the Rajan's visits to Urth go.
>
> u+16b9
>
>

-- 
Best wishes,
Jack
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