{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5747", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5747, "subject": "Short Sun blog", "messages": 100, "voices": 14, "first": "2010-09-22T11:30:51+00:00", "last": "2010-10-01T16:45:22+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-22T11:30:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l: 4. Wolfe thought, \"Wouldn't it be cool if the chief god was Typhon...?\" and \nthus tied the whole thing to tBotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: In that case, \"Long Sun\" is like \"Urth of the New Sun\". It offers additional \n(perhaps vain) helps to divine the original story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mo Holkar- Do the rest of you feel that it all ties together brilliantly?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNo, not bad but not brilliant. I agree with Dan'l that the connection to Urth seems an add-on, \nnot the original inspiration. And I agree with James that it allows for somewhat vain attempts\nto explicate (or successful attempts to confuse?) elements from BotNS. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-09-22T12:28:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \nDan'l: 4. Wolfe thought, \"Wouldn't it be cool if the chief god was \nTyphon...?\" and\nthus tied the whole thing to tBotNS." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn: In that case, \"Long Sun\" is like \"Urth of the New Sun\". It \noffers additional\n(perhaps vain) helps to divine the original story." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Mo Holkar- Do the rest of you feel that it all ties together brilliantly?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No, not bad but not brilliant. I agree with Dan'l that the connection to \nUrth seems an add-on,\nnot the original inspiration." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree too. I don't think it hurts the story, but given Wolfe's style of \nwriting and the enthusiasms of Wolfe fans, I think it provides dangerously \nfertile ground for over-interpretation!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-22T18:20:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey: Typhon was raw ego. Mt. Typhon's sole purpose was to flaunt his face and\ngratify his ego. He did not deprecate his memory or that of his family among\nthe colonists, he just changed the family names to reflect the new reality\nof their digitized existence as gods in Mainframe. On Urth they had been\nflesh and blood, and the first walking Cargo on the ship had known and\nremembered that, until their memories were tampered with. To go from royalty\nto deity is hardly a step down in status." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI lean toward Roy's explanation of Typhon's \"self-aggrandizement\". I think his primary \naudience was the people of the Whorl. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T02:39:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff: Plus, the fact that he \"chose to make Urth his capitol\" at least opens \nup the possibility that he's from somewhere else, not to mention that \nthe source of his powers is still unknown." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI concur with David that these items are important hints that Typhon is extra-terrestrial in\norigin.\n \nAt least as important is Typhon's statement that \"I was not born as I am, or born at all, as\nyou meant it.\"\n \nBut for me, most important is his name. Everyone else from Urth in his time period has saint \nnames, Declan, Zama, Ymar, Burgundofora, Hadelin, etc. etc. (Ceryx is the exception but that\nmerits a different thread). No St. Typhon.\n \nI think name \"Typhon\" places him quite firmly in the category of Abaia and Erebus and Scylla and \nArioch and other mythological monster/demon named characters. I think those characters are fairly \nclear as extra-terrestrial in origin. Add the naming to the other evidence and I don't see much \nthat argues that he is human and from Urth, other than his appearance.\n \n \n \n[FWIW, I think much of the same logic applies to Baldanders. I place quite a bit of stock in the \nstory about how he just appeared one day on the lakeshore. I don't think his advanced scientific\nknowledge comes solely from the hierodules. Moreover, monstrous behavior is seen from both\nthese guys in their treatment of humanity, including their own bodies. \n \nSeverian's musings on utopian society includes \"worlds in which all the people, knowing themselves \ndescended from a single pair of colonists, treated one another as brothers and sisters...\". But that \nties into my \"grand unified theory\" involving an alien corruption of humanity on Urth. Enough has \nbeen said on that subject already.] \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9AFB49.3030405@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T07:01:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/22/2010 9:39 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI think name \"Typhon\" places him quite firmly in the category of Abaia and Erebus and Scylla and\nArioch and other mythological monster/demon named characters. I think those characters are fairly\nclear as extra-terrestrial in origin. Add the naming to the other evidence and I don't see much\nthat argues that he is human and from Urth, other than his appearance." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "\"Typhon\" shares human anatomy with Piaton, who *is* saint-named (the \noriginal was martyred by having the top of his skull sawed off, per the \nphysicians' original plan), and his mind powers are impressively strong \nbut don't put him categorically into nonhuman status with folks like \nDecuman and the Pelerine in the tent running around.\n\nHis nonbornness makes him a candidate for a eugenical test tube baby, \nwho could perfectly well be from outer space where that sort of thing is \nin fashion but he needn't literally be an alien monster when a human \ntyrant is more than sufficiently monstrous. Human tyrants also have a \nhabit of ruling under acquired names, like Stalin and Augustus." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[FWIW, I think much of the same logic applies to Baldanders. I place quite a bit of stock in the\nstory about how he just appeared one day on the lakeshore." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I can believe Balanders the giant first appeared on the lakeshore one \nday, but we have no way to know what name the smaller castle builder he \n\"chased away\" went by." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think his advanced scientific\nknowledge comes solely from the hierodules." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dr Talos mentions how Baldanders does primary research of his own, and \nof course Urth is littered with bits and pieces of ancient technology he \ncan learn from." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T12:41:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9AFB49.3030405@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: \"Typhon\" shares human anatomy with Piaton, who *is* saint-named (the \noriginal was martyred by having the top of his skull sawed off, per the physicians' \noriginal plan), and his mind powers are impressively strong but don't put him \ncategorically into nonhuman status with folks like Decuman and the Pelerine in the \ntent running around." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSome intriguing points in your post Jeff. For me, Decuman's and Domnicellae's powers \nseem as only slightly hyper-versions of the person-to-person human interactions of \nhypnosis and lie detection. Typhon's and the Mandragora's ability to have verbally \ncomplex, detailed mental conversations (sans sensory contact for Mandragora) and to \naccurately see things far beyond the scope of human perception puts them in a different, \nsuperhuman category. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I can believe Balanders the giant first appeared on the lakeshore one \nday, but we have no way to know what name the smaller castle builder he \n\"chased away\" went by" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm assuming you are not calling into question the assumption that Baldanders is, as\nhe says, the smaller man who appeared by the lake. Perhaps you are suggesting that his\noriginal name was a saint name and that he was originally a Commonwealth denizen? If it\nis so, I think it would have been more fair for Wolfe to give us more of a hint of that." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Human tyrants also have a habit of ruling under acquired names, like Stalin and Augustus." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAre you are suggesting that, in BotNS, a human can acquire a monster name, joining the ranks\nof aliens like Abaia and Erebus, simply through monstrous behavior, hence Typhon and \nBaldanders? Or are you thinking that all these characters with monster names have human \norigins?\n \nGiven the history of interstellar human empire, it could be a moot point whether superhuman \ncreatures are alien in nature or mutated but pure humans returning to the home planet. \nI lean toward there being at least a partial alien component (with the understanding that \nthere are various ways aliens could blend their beings with humans, shapeshifting, \ninterbreeding, bloodsucking..).\n\n \nNormally, I suppose it is the default assumption that a character who looks human is human.\nBut for me, follow-up BotNS characters such as Zak/Tzadkiel and Quetzal and Fava (and the fore-\nshadowing of 5HoC) trumpet the idea that \"in this story there are aliens wearing human guise \namong us. Be alert for them!\".\n \nIt was Roy who dubbed it my \"grand unified theory\". Not sure how grand it is, but for me, it does \nunify a few themes including Typhon, Abaia/Erebus, Inire and their fate, Dr. Talos' play and the \nneed for Ushas. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T14:35:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Not a strong 'Spring' association. And if we lose the 'typhoon' \nassociation, the wind connection is even weaker." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAgreed. But if the sirrocco winds of Typhon-Set were a spring-only phenomenon my \nskepticism on this theory would be significantly erased. Typhon-Set was a god of\nwind. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The drought (as well as any unexpectedly hot winds) is a consequence of the \nblockage of some of the Whorl's ventilation tunnels over time; it is an \nindication of the decrepitude of the Whorl. The Whorl as built by \nPas/Typhon did not suffer from drought." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There are some who feel the Whorl's failures are the result of planned obsolescence.\ni.e. Typhon/Pas wanted it to fail to discourage the residents from staying on. (FWIW-\nthe Babylonian cognate to Typhon, Pazuzu, was also a god/demon of winds. I suspect this\nis at least a partial inspiration for the name \"Pas\")" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "If there were strong associations between Spring Wind and Typhon, such as a suggestion of \ntwo heads, I'd credit it. But I think it's a stretch to read an identification into what \nwe see here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely it is a stretch. But many think that stretching one's intuition is necessary to \nunderstand these stories. If all the implied associations were strong, obvious ones, it \nwouldn't be a Gene Wolfe book.\n \nOn the other hand, guarding against over-stretching is surely also a necessary function of \nunderstanding. Finding a balance is the reason we are here, is it not? Happily the \ndecision on where to draw the line is quite individualized for each person and for each\nWolfe mystery. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9B71C7.6090309@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T15:27:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (23-09-2010 13:41):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It was Roy who dubbed it my \"grand unified theory\". Not sure how grand\nit is, but for me, it does unify a few themes including Typhon,\nAbaia/Erebus, Inire and their fate, Dr. Talos' play and the need for\nUshas." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I hope I am not being insulting (or wrong) in noting that the bit Roy takes\nissue with is not the 'grand', but precisely the 'unified'. What you\nundoubtedly see as the significant merit in it, is what others view as a\nstraitjacket or even a reality distortion field." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9B72C3.7030602@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T15:31:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn: Not a strong 'Spring' association. And if we lose the 'typhoon'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "association, the wind connection is even weaker." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nAgreed. But if the sirrocco winds of Typhon-Set were a spring-only phenomenon my\nskepticism on this theory would be significantly erased. Typhon-Set was a god of\nwind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe doesn't just create easy allegories of other stories. He is \ninterested in mythology as he is interested in pulp literature. But even \nmore, he seems interested in the way their themes and icons span the \nglobe. And he's interested in words.\n\nThe word typhon is directly connected to the word typhoon. It might well \nbe that the connection was originally erroneous. It might be that the \nassociation was real but the supposition for how they were connected was \nerroneous. None of this disassociates the words from one another. Typhon \n--the mythical one(s)-- is a wind or closely associated with winds (but \nit might be that name for Egypt's typhon wind was as much originally \nbased on erroneous etymology as typhon/typhoon--much of language is \nmetaphor). To insist that Spring Wind (typhoons _do_ come in the Spring) \nought to be Summer Wind if we were expected to associate him to Typhon \nwould be like ME answering Andrew thus:\n\"How can you say Rhea Silvia is Bird of the Woods? Rhea Silvia was not a \nbird.\"\n\nThis is a myth that has been subsumed into an historical character in \nthe same way that King Arthur and Alexander the Great subsumed myths \nfrom much more ancient periods. Those who translated the story knew \nnothing of Roman mythology or Kipling. So they did not use the \n\"authentic\" terms. I'm not sure how to explain this better. I can only \nrecommend to you Weer's conversation with Louis Gold in \"Peace\".\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T15:52:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 5:41 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAre you are suggesting that, in BotNS, a human can acquire a monster name, joining the ranks\nof aliens like Abaia and Erebus, simply through monstrous behavior, hence Typhon and\nBaldanders? Or are you thinking that all these characters with monster names have human\norigins?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know what Jeff had in mind, but to me Typhon's and\nBaldanders's names suggest that they have left the human race and\nbecome monsters." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T18:25:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn: Wolfe doesn't just create easy allegories of other stories. He is \ninterested in mythology as he is interested in pulp literature. But even \nmore, he seems interested in the way their themes and icons span the globe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI agree with this. The field of comparative mythology seems so fascinating to me. \nPerhaps Gene Wolfe has no interest in it but hard to believe.\n \nWe have Flood and Ark myths all around the Middle East area. If the Bible has a raven \nand dove, Sumerians have a dove, sparrow and raven, and the Masai have a dove and a \nvulture I suppose it could be evidence that the flood stories were unrelated. But so\nmuch more interesting to guess each culture faced the same flood and interpreted it\nin a slightly different way. " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "..This is a myth that has been subsumed into an historical character in \nthe same way that King Arthur and Alexander the Great subsumed myths \nfrom much more ancient periods." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, leaders, like floods can be the shared historical reference which gives rise to \nsimilar myths and legends in a given area. I'd want to add that the shared human \ncondition itself also gives rise to parallel stories and legends from around the world.\n \nI hope it is not too sacriligious to suggest that the stories of sexless pregnancy found\nfor Early Summer and plant juice, Juno and foxglove, Shing Ma and Waterlilly etc. share\na cognate in the Mary/Jesus story, all rooted in the cultural roles for women and sex in \nhuman society. \n \nSome think that the mythology of dwarfs, sprites, giants and dragons etc. has its basis \nin primate and earlier mammalian genetic memories from when various sized human species \nco-existed and earlier times when there were flying reptilian creatures in the sky. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<150855.48690.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-23T19:48:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9B72C3.7030602@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In a nutshell, Wolfe loves puns.\n\n--- On Thu, 9/23/10, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Short Sun blog\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, September 23, 2010, 11:31 AM\nGerry Quinn: Not a strong 'Spring' association. And if we lose the 'typhoon'" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "association, the wind connection is even weaker." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nAgreed. But if the sirrocco winds of Typhon-Set were a spring-only phenomenon my\nskepticism on this theory would be significantly erased. Typhon-Set was a god of\nwind." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe doesn't just create easy allegories of other stories. He is interested in mythology as he is interested in pulp literature. But even more, he seems interested in the way their themes and icons span the globe. And he's interested in words.\n\nThe word typhon is directly connected to the word typhoon. It might well be that the connection was originally erroneous. It might be that the association was real but the supposition for how they were connected was erroneous. None of this disassociates the words from one another. Typhon --the mythical one(s)-- is a wind or closely associated with winds (but it might be that name for Egypt's typhon wind was as much originally based on erroneous etymology as typhon/typhoon--much of language is metaphor). To insist that Spring Wind (typhoons _do_ come in the Spring) ought to be Summer Wind if we were expected to associate him to Typhon would be like ME answering Andrew thus:\n\"How can you say Rhea Silvia is Bird of the Woods? Rhea Silvia was not a bird.\"\n\nThis is a myth that has been subsumed into an historical character in the same way that King Arthur and Alexander the Great subsumed myths from much more ancient periods. Those who translated the story knew nothing of Roman mythology or Kipling. So they did not use the \"authentic\" terms. I'm not sure how to explain this better. I can only recommend to you Weer's conversation with Louis Gold in \"Peace\".\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9BC641.9050008@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T21:27:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9AFB49.3030405@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 23/09/10 08:01, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\"Typhon\" shares human anatomy with Piaton, who *is* saint-named (the \noriginal was martyred by having the top of his skull sawed off, per \nthe physicians' original plan), and his mind powers are impressively \nstrong but don't put him categorically into nonhuman status with folks \nlike Decuman and the Pelerine in the tent running around." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is no seed of doubt sown anywhere that Piaton is anything other \nthan a human being - so it may be notable (perhaps) that there's no \nsuggestion in any of Typhon's speechifying to Sev that there might have \nbeen a danger of rejection of the transplant ie. Piaton's body rejecting \nTyphon's head as foreign tissue - all Typhon appears to have been \nconcerned about is the mastery of bodily functions.\n\nAnti-rejection drugs are available nowadays for transplant recipients \nand are moderately effective, and of course such could undoubtedly have \nbeen given to Typhon/Piaton by his physicians. However, such medications \nare designed for prevention of rejection of *human* tissue by *human* \nrecipients. I would imagine the problems would be duh, 'somewhat' \ngreater if Typhon were un-human; and would outweigh any problems \nregarding mastery of the last autonomic functions by quite a bit. One \ncan only speculate on the putative state of medical science in Typhon's \nera, but the fact that mastery of bodily functions is mentioned by \nTyphon while tissue rejection is not strongly suggests to me that Typhon \nmust have been just as human, by origin, as his 'organ donor' Piaton; if \nnot in fact of the same blood group and tissue type." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "His nonbornness makes him a candidate for a eugenical test tube baby, \nwho could perfectly well be from outer space where that sort of thing \nis in fashion but he needn't literally be an alien monster when a \nhuman tyrant is more than sufficiently monstrous. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "agreed.\n\njd\n\nps I'm making an assumption that GW would have been very well aware of \nthe assorted problems associated with organ transplantation and \nrejection - these were well known even in the 1970s, though medical \nmeans of dealing with them have advanced since then." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9BCC74.3070704@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T21:53:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/23/2010 10:52 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 5:41 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Are you are suggesting that, in BotNS, a human can acquire a monster name, joining the ranks\nof aliens like Abaia and Erebus, simply through monstrous behavior, hence Typhon and\nBaldanders? Or are you thinking that all these characters with monster names have human\norigins?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know what Jeff had in mind, but to me Typhon's and\nBaldanders's names suggest that they have left the human race and\nbecome monsters." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think that is the right subtext, but in-character it makes sense for \n\"Typhon\" to be an adopted name that is kept by virtu and itself becomes \na source of more virtu as the owner ascends in a way that a common name \nlike the equivalent of \"Bob\" just can't.\n\nThe milder \"Baldanders\" suits, as it dissociates him from his former \nlife and dissuades Commonwealthers newly met from being too friendly. \nHis size alone is more than enough virtu to sell the name as \nappropriate, and he has the witty and charming Dr Talos for anything \nthat requires congenial relations, and the play company \"legitmizes\" the \ncreature appellations as stage names." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9BD20F.3000106@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T22:17:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9BC641.9050008@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/23/2010 4:27 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nOn 23/09/10 08:01, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "\"Typhon\" shares human anatomy with Piaton, who *is* saint-named (the\noriginal was martyred by having the top of his skull sawed off, per\nthe physicians' original plan), and his mind powers are impressively\nstrong but don't put him categorically into nonhuman status with folks\nlike Decuman and the Pelerine in the tent running around." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "There is no seed of doubt sown anywhere that Piaton is anything other\nthan a human being - so it may be notable (perhaps) that there's no\nsuggestion in any of Typhon's speechifying to Sev that there might have\nbeen a danger of rejection of the transplant ie. Piaton's body rejecting\nTyphon's head as foreign tissue - all Typhon appears to have been\nconcerned about is the mastery of bodily functions." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "..." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "ps I'm making an assumption that GW would have been very well aware of\nthe assorted problems associated with organ transplantation and\nrejection - these were well known even in the 1970s, though medical\nmeans of dealing with them have advanced since then." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The rejection issues are swept with the same hand wave that includes all \nthe sublime biological technology on Urth. The old autarch's detail on \nthe way the analepict works includes a transfer of brain cells that take \nup residence within the recipient; this along witht he physican at the \nziggurat's repeated use of a single donor implies a rejection solution \nso robust that no prior preparation (other than the one dose) and no \nregimen afterward is needed and the concern is passe. So indeed Typhon \nwould be free to chose his donor from all his slaves, not just those who \nare part of his alleged clone cohort.\n\nJonas is an example of a similar rejection-passe scenario: apparently \nthe hollow androids' remnant occupant-serving features include some kind \nof physical as well as inductive interface to let the man operate the \nlimbs after trauma, that has been reversed to let the limbs operate the \nman in the shepherd's case." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9C22AA.1070001@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-24T04:01:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/23/2010 7:41 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: \"Typhon\" shares human anatomy with Piaton, who *is* saint-named (the\noriginal was martyred by having the top of his skull sawed off, per the physicians'\noriginal plan), and his mind powers are impressively strong but don't put him\ncategorically into nonhuman status with folks like Decuman and the Pelerine in the\ntent running around." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Some intriguing points in your post Jeff. For me, Decuman's and Domnicellae's powers\nseem as only slightly hyper-versions of the person-to-person human interactions of\nhypnosis and lie detection. Typhon's and the Mandragora's ability to have verbally\ncomplex, detailed mental conversations (sans sensory contact for Mandragora) and to\naccurately see things far beyond the scope of human perception puts them in a different,\nsuperhuman category." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see a lot of textev for this; if Typhon's mental mojo is all \nthat, why does he bother to physically drag Severian up to the \nobservation windows to tempt him with a vision of the world's powers, \nthrones, and dominions? I see that he has some kind of compelling power \nof suggestion, but his repeated attempts to get Sev to swear on the Claw \nsuggest to me that his psionic transmissions are *not* complex mental \nconversations but more like some narrow geas to comply with the command \nof the moment that has to build on some volition of the subject to \ncommit to service to be truly effective.\n\nTyphon's assertion that he has sent his thought into far places, \nstill-functional machinery at the site, his knowledge of the state of \ncurrent monstrous affairs, and Severian's overhearing him moving about \nbut not speaking suggests to me that he can mentally assert control \nover machines in his presence as well, and gathers this intelligence \nfrom the remaining communications gear at the mountain fortress and such \ndistant mechanized stations as still operate after centuries of neglect, \nlike the voices in the uppermost floor or the Matachine tower.\n\nPerhaps both abilities are the same ability, coercing electrical \nimpulses in circuitry as well as in grey matter." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-24T13:23:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9C22AA.1070001@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff, your argument below on the more modest, machine assisted abilities of Typhon is\na good one. What isn't addressed, for me, are the similar abilities of the Mandragora.\nWithin your framework of thinking are you saying the Mandragora has similar machinery \nto Typhon's at his disposal? Or that Typhon and the Mandragora are unrelated? Or\nsomething else?\n \n(I had originally also assumed Typhon's powers were machine assisted but my thoughts \nhave been swayed by the Mandragora connection and the persistence of the lupine theme \nof non-human beings in human form)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: I don't see a lot of textev for this; if Typhon's mental mojo is all \nthat, why does he bother to physically drag Severian up to the \nobservation windows to tempt him with a vision of the world's powers, \nthrones, and dominions? I see that he has some kind of compelling power \nof suggestion, but his repeated attempts to get Sev to swear on the Claw \nsuggest to me that his psionic transmissions are *not* complex mental \nconversations but more like some narrow geas to comply with the command \nof the moment that has to build on some volition of the subject to \ncommit to service to be truly effective.\nTyphon's assertion that he has sent his thought into far places, \nstill-functional machinery at the site, his knowledge of the state of \ncurrent monstrous affairs, and Severian's overhearing him moving about \nbut not speaking suggests to me that he can mentally assert control \nover machines in his presence as well, and gathers this intelligence \nfrom the remaining communications gear at the mountain fortress and such \ndistant mechanized stations as still operate after centuries of neglect, \nlike the voices in the uppermost floor or the Matachine tower.\nPerhaps both abilities are the same ability, coercing electrical \nimpulses in circuitry as well as in grey matter. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9CA744.9020209@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-24T13:27:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9C22AA.1070001@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " I like the theory that Typhon's powers are largely machine-based. It \nfits with what we know: machines' ability to create aquastors, the \nAutarchs' words of power (which could be mental as much as audible) that \nlet them control at least some machines while preventing others from \ndoing so, and Cyriaca's tale of robotic star empires.\n\nIt also fits with Typhon's access to plainly advanced \nmechanical/electronic/robotic technology as found in the Whorl. His \ntechnology isn't bio-psionic, though it is genetic as well.\n\nMost of all, it fits with the fact that Wolfe gives us no hints \nwhatsoever about the source of any mental powers Typhon might have---he \ndoesn't need to, because Typhon doesn't particularly have any. But we \nknow that mental powers are possible (Mucor, the Mandragora), so his use \nand control of machines is easily explained.\n\nThat's also one less reason to think Typhon is not from Urth, though I \nstill think so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/24/2010 12:01 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nI don't see a lot of textev for this; if Typhon's mental mojo is all \nthat, why does he bother to physically drag Severian up to the \nobservation windows to tempt him with a vision of the world's powers, \nthrones, and dominions? I see that he has some kind of compelling \npower of suggestion, but his repeated attempts to get Sev to swear on \nthe Claw suggest to me that his psionic transmissions are *not* \ncomplex mental conversations but more like some narrow geas to comply \nwith the command of the moment that has to build on some volition of \nthe subject to commit to service to be truly effective.\n\nTyphon's assertion that he has sent his thought into far places, \nstill-functional machinery at the site, his knowledge of the state of \ncurrent monstrous affairs, and Severian's overhearing him moving about \nbut not speaking suggests to me that he can mentally assert control \nover machines in his presence as well, and gathers this intelligence \nfrom the remaining communications gear at the mountain fortress and \nsuch distant mechanized stations as still operate after centuries of \nneglect, like the voices in the uppermost floor or the Matachine tower.\n\nPerhaps both abilities are the same ability, coercing electrical \nimpulses in circuitry as well as in grey matter." } ] }, { "message_id": "<143EC7E652294CA981B93C1C9AD5B05A@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-09-24T14:14:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9C22AA.1070001@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nTyphon's assertion that he has sent his thought into far places, \nstill-functional machinery at the site, his knowledge of the state of \ncurrent monstrous affairs, and Severian's overhearing him moving about but \nnot speaking suggests to me that he can mentally assert control over \nmachines in his presence as well, and gathers this intelligence from the \nremaining communications gear at the mountain fortress and such distant \nmechanized stations as still operate after centuries of neglect, like the \nvoices in the uppermost floor or the Matachine tower." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always thought of him as juist having a very dominant personality, and \nusing technology to get the information. Indeed, doesn't he claim himself \nthat his power over people is associated with them recognising his face? \nThis doesn't suggest psychic powers, though of course it doesn't rule them \nout either.\n\nAs for trying to make Severian swear fealty, doesn't this tie in with \nSeverian's thoughts about Vodalus's coin very early in the story? There is \npower in oaths even if the swearer does not fully intend to keep them.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-09-24T16:29:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<143EC7E652294CA981B93C1C9AD5B05A@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nJeff, your argument below on the more modest, machine assisted abilities of" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon is a good one. What isn't addressed, for me, are the similar\nabilities of the Mandragora. Within your framework of thinking are you\nsaying the Mandragora has similar machinery to Typhon's at his disposal? Or\nthat Typhon and the Mandragora are unrelated? Or something else?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am not persuaded that the Mandragora has anything to do with Typhon.\nThere are a couple of unanswered questions with this theory.\n\n1) Why would a clone of Typhon be stored in the Autarch's visiting room?\nTyphon wasn't an Autarch -- the title wasn't invented in his time. The\nMatachin Tower was just part of a prison then.\n2) Why did the Mandragora ask about a memory of Severian being in a basket\nas a child?\n\nMy theory is that the Mandragora is a spare clone brother of Severian\nhimself. Two clone embyros could have been transported downriver in a basket\nto the Citadel (possibly by the Cyriaca of the previous iteration) and sent\nback in time to be implanted in Catherine. Then it would make sense for both\nbrothers to share this memory. The unused clone, as a would-be autarch of\nsorts, could be given the honor of being stored in the Autarch room.\n\nIn my theory, this is Severian's missing \"twin\" and the Fish to his Frog." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9D3901.70909@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-24T23:49:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/24/2010 8:23 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nJeff, your argument below on the more modest, machine assisted abilities of Typhon is\na good one. What isn't addressed, for me, are the similar abilities of the Mandragora.\nWithin your framework of thinking are you saying the Mandragora has similar machinery\nto Typhon's at his disposal? Or that Typhon and the Mandragora are unrelated? Or\nsomething else?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm very suspicious of the mandragora and how similar Severian finds \nthem; I'd bet my flyer to your villa that it's only echoing Sev's \nexpectations back to him and is otherwise an inert lump without a living \nmind's thoughts and aspirations to make it go." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9D8540.2050701@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-25T05:14:40+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/24/2010 11:29 AM, Dave Tallman wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:\n\n Jeff, your argument below on the more modest, machine assisted\n abilities of Typhon is a good one. What isn't addressed, for me, are\n the similar abilities of the Mandragora. Within your framework of\n thinking are you saying the Mandragora has similar machinery to\n Typhon's at his disposal? Or that Typhon and the Mandragora are\n unrelated? Or something else?\n\n\nI am not persuaded that the Mandragora has anything to do with Typhon.\nThere are a couple of unanswered questions with this theory.\n\n1) Why would a clone of Typhon be stored in the Autarch's visiting room?\nTyphon wasn't an Autarch -- the title wasn't invented in his time. The\nMatachin Tower was just part of a prison then." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I just posted a quote from URTH that seems to say that there were \nAutarchs before Typhon, and in SWORD Typhon answers to the title of \nAutarch without correction or comment to Severian." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-25T06:40:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9D8540.2050701@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Some interesting thoughts being thrown around about these characters.\n \nTyphon not only refers to Urth as \"this world\" a couple times, he also\ncalls the sun \"this sun\". Not proof positive but to me he really doesn't \ntalk like a native. Then there is his name. In origin, it seems \ncloser to Erebus than any other character. If Erebus has an Urthly, human \norigin I could see the same argument for Typhon. If not, not. I think the \nnaming similarity locks these two characters together in origin and essence, \nwhatever they may be.\n \nHas been posted more than once before but maybe okay to do it again. In the \nMcCaffrey interview Wolfe says:\n \nI also gave the people and other beings in the book real names ( \"Severian,\" \n\"Vodalus,\" and \"Agilus,\" for example, are all ordinary, if now uncommon, names \nfor men.....As for the monsters' names, I simply named them for monsters.\n \nSomeone earlier noted that Baldanders' name implies a milder form of monstrosity \nand I agree. The original protean meaning is of a being who is transforming, \"soon\nto be another\". I can see him, perhaps, as being originally human, but changing \ninto a monster. But the names Erebus and Typhon convey essential monstrosity for \nme." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- Wolfe gives us no hints whatsoever about the source of any \nmental powers Typhon might have---he doesn't need to, because Typhon doesn't \nparticularly have any. But we know that mental powers are possible (Mucor, \nthe Mandragora), " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nTyphon could have taken Severian to the mountaintop to access ESP machinery\nbut seems to me his primary goal was to take Severian to where there was food. \nSeverian hears Typhon use a word of power to command the flyer but he doesn't\nhear anything similar as Typhon looks all the way to the battle at Orithiya \nand forces Severian to see through his own eyes.\n \nI think Mucor is a very relevant name to bring up here. She is human in origin but has \nsuperhuman, even god-like powers of projection and human possesion. But perhaps because \nshe is human in origin (like Baldanders?), she can't be given a greek mythological name \nlike the other gods (I think it is more than just that she isn't part of Pas' family). \nShe is Vironese but she doesn't get a plant name, perhaps because she isn't really human. \nSo she ends up with a name from a different biological Kingdom, mucor being a sort of \nfungal mold. Foul, parasitic and always intruding where it isn't wanted.\n \nThe Mandragora has been mentioned already. He has a rather authoritarian personality\n(given his circumstances) and his almost successful attempt to manipulate Severian via \nthe Thecla portion of his mind might associate him with Typhon as I think his telepathy \nand clairvoyance and name do.\n \n \nDave Tallman asks: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why would a clone of Typhon be stored in the Autarch's visiting room?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWell, Severian does list the Mandragora among the \"treasures\" of the room.\n \nWikipedia says- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Mandragoras are thought to be little dolls or figures given to sorcerers by the \nDevil for the purpose of being consulted by them in time of need;" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nDevil, hm...Anyway, I can imagine an autarch (or the \"sorcerer\" ruling behind the autarch) \nfinding an advisory use for a helpless being with the power of clairvoyance. \n \nDave also asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why did the Mandragora ask about a memory of Severian being in a basket as a child?\nMy theory is that the Mandragora is a spare clone brother of Severian himself. Two \nclone embyros could have been transported downriver in a basket to the Citadel (possibly \nby the Cyriaca of the previous iteration) and sent back in time to be implanted in Catherine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAnother fantastical theory to explain this could be based on Dorcas having a basket (\"not small\nyet not large either\") with her as she mourns the boatman. Perhaps Severian impregnated her with \nhimself, and some time travel trick ensued.\n \nAlso regarding the screaming baby memory, Severian says he remembers being \"encircled by brown walls\". \nI think the Matachin Tower cells have walls of gray. Typhon's room is circular but has shiny metal\nwalls.\n \nI really don't have anything close to a good answer for this one. Maybe someone else does.\n \n\n \n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9DAD66.5040000@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-25T08:05:58+00:00", "subject": "(urth) It's all Typhon, Typhon, Typhon!", "in_reply_to": "<4C9C22AA.1070001@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/23/2010 11:01 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nTyphon's assertion that he has sent his thought into far places,\nstill-functional machinery at the site, his knowledge of the state of\ncurrent monstrous affairs, and Severian's overhearing him moving about\nbut not speaking suggests to me that he can mentally assert control over\nmachines in his presence as well, and gathers this intelligence from the\nremaining communications gear at the mountain fortress and such distant\nmechanized stations as still operate after centuries of neglect, like\nthe voices in the uppermost floor or the Matachine tower." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Reviewing the passage in SWORD, Typhon explicitly uses a whispered word \nto command the floating boat, counting against his mental command over \nthe inanimate. Typhon may have been speaking more figuratively about \nsending his thought into distant places, or the drift in language over \nthe tousand years between the eras may compond the translation \ndifficulty, so that he really means something more like will or notion.\n\nThe display of all the Commonwealth could be a mental projection, or it \ncould be a hologram of some kind - it's possible that Typhon's mojo and \nthe spectacle distract Sev from noticing whatever controls or command \ngestures are being used to operate the projection.\n\nThere seem to be a *lot* of curious lacunae in the Typhon sequence. He \ndoesn't seem particularly affected by his resurrection, and at different \ntimes treats Sev as a stranger and as a forgetful acquaintance, but \ndoesn't seem to realize he is the Conciliator til near the end. Weird." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9DEB36.2080100@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-25T12:29:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " My impression is that the mandragora was simply making a comparison. \nIn doing so, he shows that he has better access to Severian's memories \nthan he does himself." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/25/2010 2:40 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\nDave also asks:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Why did the Mandragora ask about a memory of Severian being in a basket as a child?\nMy theory is that the Mandragora is a spare clone brother of Severian himself. Two\nclone embyros could have been transported downriver in a basket to the Citadel (possibly\nby the Cyriaca of the previous iteration) and sent back in time to be implanted in Catherine." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another fantastical theory to explain this could be based on Dorcas having a basket (\"not small\nyet not large either\") with her as she mourns the boatman. Perhaps Severian impregnated her with\nhimself, and some time travel trick ensued.\n\nAlso regarding the screaming baby memory, Severian says he remembers being \"encircled by brown walls\".\nI think the Matachin Tower cells have walls of gray. Typhon's room is circular but has shiny metal\nwalls.\n\nI really don't have anything close to a good answer for this one. Maybe someone else does.\n\n\n\n\n \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<004701cb5ce1$d53e0680$75d14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-09-25T18:45:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9D8540.2050701@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\n1) Why would a clone of Typhon be stored in the Autarch's visiting room?\nTyphon wasn't an Autarch -- the title wasn't invented in his time. The\nMatachin Tower was just part of a prison then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I just posted a quote from URTH that seems to say that there were\nAutarchs before Typhon, and in SWORD Typhon answers to the title of\nAutarch without correction or comment to Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dave is right about Typhon not being an autarch. Typhon was the last\nmonarch, Ymar the first autarch. The title autarch is used by a number of\npeople in the Commonwealth in Severian's era to mean ruler, because they\nknow no other word for one. Cyriaca uses autarch in that way in her story\nabout the founding of Ultan's library, and there are other cases, such as\nNicaret explaining to Severian why pastries and coffee were served to people\nin the antechamber, a custom that began before the reign of Ymar.\n\nJonas, answering a question about the weird soldiers in the Wall, said, \"The\nold autarchs, who were not autarchs or called so, did use human soldiers.\"\n(CLAW, chap. VIII) Typhon would have answered to \"Imperator or something of\nthe sort\" as readily as to autarch.\n\nThe autarch's quarters were in the oldest part of the Citadel and may have\nantedated the autarchy. Not that I'm buyin' any stinkin' clones.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9E4A2A.4010707@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-25T19:14:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<004701cb5ce1$d53e0680$75d14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/25/2010 1:45 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson quoted and wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "1) Why would a clone of Typhon be stored in the Autarch's visiting room?\nTyphon wasn't an Autarch -- the title wasn't invented in his time. The\nMatachin Tower was just part of a prison then." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I just posted a quote from URTH that seems to say that there were\nAutarchs before Typhon, and in SWORD Typhon answers to the title of\nAutarch without correction or comment to Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave is right about Typhon not being an autarch. Typhon was the last\nmonarch, Ymar the first autarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then whose memories lie behind Ymar's?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The title autarch is used by a number of\npeople in the Commonwealth in Severian's era to mean ruler, because they\nknow no other word for one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It might be the most familiar and the only commonly used one, but I \nfind it hard to believe it is the only one during a time of active war; \nsurely people talk about the Asciians soldiers and the Periscii raiders\nand must have words for their rulers other than \"autarch\" if only to \navoid dishonoring the autarch by association. \"King\" appears in the \nbrown book, which was popular closer to Sev's time than to Typhon's." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Cyriaca uses autarch in that way in her story\nabout the founding of Ultan's library, and there are other cases, such as\nNicaret explaining to Severian why pastries and coffee were served to people\nin the antechamber, a custom that began before the reign of Ymar.\n\nJonas, answering a question about the weird soldiers in the Wall, said, \"The\nold autarchs, who were not autarchs or called so, did use human soldiers.\"\n(CLAW, chap. VIII) Typhon would have answered to \"Imperator or something of\nthe sort\" as readily as to autarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, this is what I mean, \"autarch\" or something very similar like \n\"autocrat\" must be known to Typhon and accepted as a suitably respectful \nor flattering title, seeing as he is such a stickler for respect for his \nauthoritai!" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The autarch's quarters were in the oldest part of the Citadel and may have\nantedated the autarchy. Not that I'm buyin' any stinkin' clones." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yeah; the general solution of tissue rejection makes clones obsolete for \nmedical reasons, time travelers don't need them because there are \nalready a succession of Severians, and you seem only to need them when \nyou want someone who looks just like the original but isn't, and even \nthat seems to be a fading tradition." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9EA608.2080802@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-09-26T01:46:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9BD20F.3000106@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 23/09/10 23:17, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nThe rejection issues are swept with the same hand wave that includes \nall the sublime biological technology on Urth. The old autarch's \ndetail on the way the analepict works includes a transfer of brain \ncells that take up residence within the recipient; this along witht he \nphysican at the ziggurat's repeated use of a single donor implies a \nrejection solution so robust that no prior preparation (other than the \none dose) and no regimen afterward is needed and the concern is passe. \nSo indeed Typhon would be free to chose his donor from all his slaves, \nnot just those who are part of his alleged clone cohort." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, got all that, and granted; but the point I was attempting to address \nwas not re: the notion of clones/'test tube (human) babies' or a \nputative clone cohort (of which I know nothing!), but re: Typhon \npossibly being /nonhuman/, which was someone else's hypothesis entirely \n- was it Lee's, or are we all actually arguing with the blog writer? \nI've kind of forgotten in the twists and turns of this conversation.\n\nOn this point only then (Typhon's possible nonhuman origin) - the \ntransfers/transplants mentioned in this post (Jeff's, the one quoted) \nare all within the human species. In other words, these examples all \nsupport my point and in fact if anything tell /against/ the notion that \nTyphon might be of unUrthly origin.\n\nI know it wasn't you (Jeff) that advanced the notion that Typhon might \nnot be human, and in fact we agree I think.\n\nregards\n\njd" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jonas is an example of a similar rejection-passe scenario: apparently \nthe hollow androids' remnant occupant-serving features include some \nkind of physical as well as inductive interface to let the man operate \nthe limbs after trauma, that has been reversed to let the limbs \noperate the man in the shepherd's case." } ] }, { "message_id": "<007301cb5d3a$51412020$abcf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-09-26T05:18:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9E4A2A.4010707@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wroted and quote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "I just posted a quote from URTH that seems to say that there were\nAutarchs before Typhon, and in SWORD Typhon answers to the title of\nAutarch without correction or comment to Severian." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave is right about Typhon not being an autarch. Typhon was the last\nmonarch, Ymar the first autarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then whose memories lie behind Ymar's?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Don't know. But the Age of Myth is older even than the Age of the Monarch\nand probably includes Apu-Punchau, who was Severian, who used time travel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " > The title autarch is used by a number of\npeople in the Commonwealth in Severian's era to mean ruler, because they\nknow no other word for one.\n\nIt might be the most familiar and the only commonly used one, but I\nfind it hard to believe it is the only one during a time of active war;\nsurely people talk about the Asciians soldiers and the Periscii raiders\nand must have words for their rulers other than \"autarch\" if only to\navoid dishonoring the autarch by association. \"King\" appears in the\nbrown book, which was popular closer to Sev's time than to Typhon's." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Autarch might not be the only word used by people in Sev's era to mean\nruler, but it is a word used as a catch-all for ruler. People in Typhon's\nday referred to him as monarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " > Cyriaca uses autarch in that way in her story\nabout the founding of Ultan's library, and there are other cases, such\nas\nNicaret explaining to Severian why pastries and coffee were served to\npeople\nin the antechamber, a custom that began before the reign of Ymar." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jonas, answering a question about the weird soldiers in the Wall, said,\n\"The\nold autarchs, who were not autarchs or called so, did use human\nsoldiers.\"\n(CLAW, chap. VIII) Typhon would have answered to \"Imperator or something\nof\nthe sort\" as readily as to autarch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, this is what I mean, \"autarch\" or something very similar like\n\"autocrat\" must be known to Typhon and accepted as a suitably respectful\nor flattering title, seeing as he is such a stickler for respect for his\nauthoritai!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sev said to Ymar: \"Ymar, someday you will become the ruler. You'll be the\nmonarch, although I don't think you'll call yourself that.\" (URTH, chap.\nXXXVIII, 269)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9EDE6D.2040906@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-26T05:47:25+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9EA608.2080802@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/25/2010 8:46 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nOn this point only then (Typhon's possible nonhuman origin) - the\ntransfers/transplants mentioned in this post (Jeff's, the one quoted)\nare all within the human species. In other words, these examples all\nsupport my point and in fact if anything tell /against/ the notion that\nTyphon might be of unUrthly origin.\n\nI know it wasn't you (Jeff) that advanced the notion that Typhon might\nnot be human, and in fact we agree I think." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I mostly brought it up because it had slipped my mind earlier the last \ntime Typhon's notional clones came up, and someone mentioned tissue \nrejection in support of Piaton being a clone or close family member." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-26T11:10:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9EDE6D.2040906@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney: On this point only then (Typhon's possible nonhuman origin) - \nthe transfers/transplants mentioned in this post (Jeff's, the one quoted) \nare all within the human species. In other words, these examples all \nsupport my point and in fact if anything tell /against/ the notion that \nTyphon might be of unUrthly origin." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn Typhon we see a dried out, thousand year old human body, cells destroyed\nproteins degraded, somehow able to come to life, rehydrate, re-establish neural\nconnections, organ integration etc. all within hours. In Tzadkiel we see the\ncells of a finger manage to re-organize themselves into heart, lung, brain,\nliver and bone cells and become a fully organized and integrated person within \nseconds. We have man-apes and dogmen and lord knows what else going on in the \noceans and Baldanders labs and the witches tower.\n \nAll these fantastic biological processes are casually accepted yet a slight\nprotein readjustment in the histamines of a human-appearing alien by the best\ndoctors of an interplanetary empire to suppress organ rejection is deemed \nimpossible?\n \nI have to guess that Typhon-as-alien-in-origin just doesn't feel right to some \npeople. In my view, such a feeling is sufficent to reject it as a working \nconcept. No need for post hoc biological or other sorts of objections, especially\nthose from outside the text. It works for my view of BotNS but it isn't meant as a \nforeign contaminant or monkey wrench in the working interpretations of others. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<31DB6542AE8546DD8AAA97C024E9DDAD@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-09-26T11:22:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9EA608.2080802@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: Jane Delawney \n\n On this point only then (Typhon's possible nonhuman origin) - the transfers/transplants mentioned in this post (Jeff's, the one quoted) are all within the human species. In other words, these examples all support my point and in fact if anything tell against the notion that Typhon might be of unUrthly origin. \n\n I know it wasn't you (Jeff) that advanced the notion that Typhon might not be human, and in fact we agree I think. \n\nOf course Typhon could well be a human from beyond Urth.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9F44BF.9030908@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-26T13:03:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Severian made the assassin in the corridor come back to life, IIRC, \nafter years. Why not Typhon? He was mummified; you can only be so dead \nonce that happens." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/26/2010 7:10 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jane Delawney: On this point only then (Typhon's possible nonhuman origin) -\nthe transfers/transplants mentioned in this post (Jeff's, the one quoted)\nare all within the human species. In other words, these examples all\nsupport my point and in fact if anything tell /against/ the notion that\nTyphon might be of unUrthly origin." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In Typhon we see a dried out, thousand year old human body, cells destroyed\nproteins degraded, somehow able to come to life, rehydrate, re-establish neural\nconnections, organ integration etc. all within hours. In Tzadkiel we see the\ncells of a finger manage to re-organize themselves into heart, lung, brain,\nliver and bone cells and become a fully organized and integrated person within\nseconds. We have man-apes and dogmen and lord knows what else going on in the\noceans and Baldanders labs and the witches tower.\n\nAll these fantastic biological processes are casually accepted yet a slight\nprotein readjustment in the histamines of a human-appearing alien by the best\ndoctors of an interplanetary empire to suppress organ rejection is deemed\nimpossible?\n\nI have to guess that Typhon-as-alien-in-origin just doesn't feel right to some\npeople. In my view, such a feeling is sufficent to reject it as a working\nconcept. No need for post hoc biological or other sorts of objections, especially\nthose from outside the text. It works for my view of BotNS but it isn't meant as a\nforeign contaminant or monkey wrench in the working interpretations of others. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9FBB83.7080700@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-26T21:30:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/26/2010 6:10 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nIn Typhon we see a dried out, thousand year old human body, cells destroyed\nproteins degraded, somehow able to come to life, rehydrate, re-establish neural\nconnections, organ integration etc. all within hours. In Tzadkiel we see the\ncells of a finger manage to re-organize themselves into heart, lung, brain,\nliver and bone cells and become a fully organized and integrated person within\nseconds. We have man-apes and dogmen and lord knows what else going on in the\noceans and Baldanders labs and the witches tower.\n\nAll these fantastic biological processes are casually accepted yet a slight\nprotein readjustment in the histamines of a human-appearing alien by the best\ndoctors of an interplanetary empire to suppress organ rejection is deemed\nimpossible?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon's resurrection by Severian is not reasonably believable as a \nbiological process, and I certainly did not casually accept it as one \nwhen I first read the books, or the third time. But it is just as \nbelievable as the result of Severian's time-bending superpowers as any \nother resurrection in the books.\n\nTzadkiel's transmogrifications are likewise accompanied by an alien \norigin and a sublime command of time and space - it looks like seconds, \nbut but it could be equally exempt from the plodding pace and \nirreversability of Briah's temporal arrow, as is spelled out for other \nprocesses in Yesod.\n\nThe man-apes and dog-men are just as believable as any other genetic \nengineering writ large. Baldanders's gadgets and self-modifications are \npretty outre, but there is the requisite appeal to the authority of \nscience for suspension of disbelief in those matters.\n\nA nonhuman origin for Typhon or anyone else who appears basically human \nhowever, is without precedent or suggestion of possibility in the first \nfive volumes, at least remotely close to the Urthly ages. If Typhon's \n\"really\" a space vampire, it's by retroactive continuity from the later \nbooks." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9FEBBC.5070703@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T00:56:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 26/09/10 12:10, Lee Berman wrote:\nAll these fantastic biological processes are casually accepted yet a slight\nprotein readjustment in the histamines of a human-appearing alien by the best\ndoctors of an interplanetary empire to suppress organ rejection is deemed\nimpossible?\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not impossible; just very very improbable :)\n\nUnless it is to be believed that all lifeforms everywhere in the \nuniverse share a common biochemistry, it's about as believable that an \nalien Typhon would be able to receive human organs (or body parts, \nwhatever) as it is that a human woman would be able to bear the child of \nan alien being with copper-based blood, as occurs in that well known \n/fantasy/ series Star Trek.\n\nI'd have no objection at all to the notion if Typhon were alleged to be \nan individual of human bloodstock who happened to have been born off \nworld - but that does not seem to be the hypothesis under discussion.\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA0271B.6010105@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T05:09:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9FEBBC.5070703@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/26/2010 7:56 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nI'd have no objection at all to the notion if Typhon were alleged to be\nan individual of human bloodstock who happened to have been born off\nworld - but that does not seem to be the hypothesis under discussion." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always thought that was the case." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00bb01cb5e11$7f826ca0$9bd14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-09-27T06:59:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA0271B.6010105@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson quoted and wrote:\nOn 9/26/2010 7:56 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I'd have no objection at all to the notion if Typhon were alleged to be\nan individual of human bloodstock who happened to have been born off\nworld - but that does not seem to be the hypothesis under discussion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've always thought that was the case." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Same here. There is no direct proof that Typhon's home world was not Urth,\nbut there is an indirect indication. If you accept that Typhon ruled some\nnumber of worlds outside the Red Sun solar system -- which proposition I\nfind compelling -- then it is not likely that he began his career on Urth.\nKypris (in Chenille) said of him, \"And he came to rule the whole--whorl. Our\nwhorl, bigger than this. So fast. All in a few years. No one could believe\nit.\" (LAKE, chap. 4, p- 91) Mamelta, surely, was born on Urth, so the our\n\"whorl\" Typhon conquered in a few years was Urth, and he came from somewhere\nelse to do it.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<00cc01cb5e12$47c4e760$9bd14a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-09-27T07:04:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA0271B.6010105@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Oops! I wrote:\nMamelta, surely, was born on Urth, so the our \"whorl\" Typhon conquered in a\nfew years was Urth, and he came from somewhere else to do it.<" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I meant Kypris, not Mamelta.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA08476.2000203@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-27T11:48:06+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9FEBBC.5070703@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Actually, the assumption that at least most life in the NS/LS/SS \nuniverse has the same biochemistry. The inhumi feed on both humans and \nNeighbors, for example. And then you have the alzabo.\n\nCopper-based life seems to prove the rule by not existing here.\n\nHowever, seamless transplantation does go too far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/26/2010 8:56 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nOn 26/09/10 12:10, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "All these fantastic biological processes are casually accepted yet a slight\nprotein readjustment in the histamines of a human-appearing alien by the best\ndoctors of an interplanetary empire to suppress organ rejection is deemed\nimpossible?\n " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not impossible; just very very improbable :)\n\nUnless it is to be believed that all lifeforms everywhere in the \nuniverse share a common biochemistry, it's about as believable that an \nalien Typhon would be able to receive human organs (or body parts, \nwhatever) as it is that a human woman would be able to bear the child \nof an alien being with copper-based blood, as occurs in that well \nknown /fantasy/ series Star Trek.\n\nI'd have no objection at all to the notion if Typhon were alleged to \nbe an individual of human bloodstock who happened to have been born \noff world - but that does not seem to be the hypothesis under discussion.\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4ACA1715B040427DB27CBBF0867A3728@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-09-27T12:14:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4C9FEBBC.5070703@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: Jane Delawney \n On 26/09/10 12:10, Lee Berman wrote: \nAll these fantastic biological processes are casually accepted yet a slight\nprotein readjustment in the histamines of a human-appearing alien by the best\ndoctors of an interplanetary empire to suppress organ rejection is deemed \nimpossible? Not impossible; just very very improbable :)\n\n Unless it is to be believed that all lifeforms everywhere in the universe share a common biochemistry, it's about as believable that an alien Typhon would be able to receive human organs (or body parts, whatever) as it is that a human woman would be able to bear the child of an alien being with copper-based blood, as occurs in that well known fantasy series Star Trek. \nOf course, it is not very probable according to conventional evolutionary theory (admittedly, Wolfe has a penchant for Lamarckism) that the native animals and plants of St.Anne would be edible to humans, or that humans would be edible to alzabo, for that matter. Indeed, the alzabo seems to have evolved a solution which is radically more effective and biologically implausible than the transplantation of human organs!\n\nPersonally, I don't much care where Typhon came from. I don't see it as important. He looks human (or at least if he doesn't, Severian doesn't see fit to burden us with the details of any horns or tentacles he might sport) so I assume he is human. Perhaps there is a 'birther' faction dedicated to resisting his rule on the grounds that he was not born on Urth, but if so I suspect they mainly object to him for other reasons.\n\n- Gerry Quinn " } ] }, { "message_id": "<5A704948B55945D08A6CCFCF366BCB2E@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-09-27T12:23:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<00bb01cb5e11$7f826ca0$9bd14a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nSame here. There is no direct proof that Typhon's home world was not Urth,\nbut there is an indirect indication. If you accept that Typhon ruled some\nnumber of worlds outside the Red Sun solar system -- which proposition I\nfind compelling -- then it is not likely that he began his career on Urth.\nKypris (in Chenille) said of him, \"And he came to rule the whole--whorl. \nOur\nwhorl, bigger than this. So fast. All in a few years. No one could believe\nit.\" (LAKE, chap. 4, p- 91) Mamelta, surely, was born on Urth, so the our\n\"whorl\" Typhon conquered in a few years was Urth, and he came from \nsomewhere\nelse to do it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why could he not have come to rule it having been born on it? It may seem \nimplausible to you, but Mamelta has already pointed out that it seemed \nimplausible to everyone!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA09271.50000@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-27T12:47:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<5A704948B55945D08A6CCFCF366BCB2E@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " If he was born on Urth, and had to conquer Urth, that would tend to \nrule out any previous association with the existing empire, either for \nhim or for Urth. But it's still possible.\n\nAnother angle is that, in a novel filled with backstory and plots \nrevolving around an Epitome of Urth, it might be thematically consistent \nto assume Typhon was Urthly and was at the time the \"best\" of Urth.\n\nIf he did not directly inherit the star empire, and Urth did not come \nwith it, then either (a) he joined and brought the empire to Urth or (b) \nhe conquered Urth himself (consistent with Mamelta) and then went on to \nthe other planets. I admit \"b\" is more surprising. than\n\"a.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/27/2010 8:23 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Roy C. Lackey\" \nSame here. There is no direct proof that Typhon's home world was not \nUrth,\nbut there is an indirect indication. If you accept that Typhon ruled \nsome\nnumber of worlds outside the Red Sun solar system -- which proposition I\nfind compelling -- then it is not likely that he began his career on \nUrth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Kypris (in Chenille) said of him, \"And he came to rule the \nwhole--whorl. Our\nwhorl, bigger than this. So fast. All in a few years. No one could \nbelieve\nit.\" (LAKE, chap. 4, p- 91) Mamelta, surely, was born on Urth, so the \nour\n\"whorl\" Typhon conquered in a few years was Urth, and he came from \nsomewhere\nelse to do it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why could he not have come to rule it having been born on it? It may \nseem implausible to you, but Mamelta has already pointed out that it \nseemed implausible to everyone!\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T13:33:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA09271.50000@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- Actually, the assumption that at least most life in the NS/LS/SS \nuniverse has the same biochemistry. The inhumi feed on both humans and \nNeighbors, for example. And then you have the alzabo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYep. And The Mother and Seawrack are down there eating drowned human sailors and, I \nthink, Neighbor sailors before that. That's the picture I get from the Sun series- \na galaxy of creatures able to eat each other and share their physical and mental \nbeing and existence.\n \nIs this because Urthly humans spread out across the galaxy and mutated into a myriad\nof creatures? Or is it because a parasitic race feeding on multiple species serve\nas a vector for genetic sharing and splicing, like a virus for bacteria cells or even\noncogenes in humans. Perhaps some combination of these processes?\n \nI think the suggestions for this stuff are clear to see in the story. Identifying exactly\nwhich process created each superhuman character is probably not so important. Only the\npossibilities matter, which is all I've ever argued for.\n \n \nFor me, the underpinnings of BotNS are as an exploration of the interaction between\npagan gods and Judeo-Christianity. Wolfe did this by creating an Earth twin where\nThe Flood and Jesus never happened, allowing the pagan gods to have continued dominion\nfar into the future of where we on Earth are now.\n \nI'm glad Wolfe gave us various possibilities for the origin of such creatures as Erebus,\nZeus, Typhon, Gabriel, Odin, Arioch, Abaia, Tzadkiel, etc. But at the end of the day, for \nthe purpose of this story, I think it is more important to understand what they are rather \nthan where they came from. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T14:43:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Burman wrote:\n'For me, the underpinnings of BotNS are as an exploration of the interaction\nbetween\npagan gods and Judeo-Christianity. Wolfe did this by creating an Earth twin\nwhere\nThe Flood and Jesus never happened, allowing the pagan gods to have\ncontinued dominion\nfar into the future of where we on Earth are now.'\nYes, it seems clear this is a central theme of the entire Solar Cycle (and\npossibly of the Soldier series as well, which I haven't read yet; and\nalso Wolfe explictly stated that in The Wizard Knight saga he was exploring\nchivalry in a world without Christianity [paraphrase from online video, easy\nto google]). My question is just *how* does he do this in BotNS? How does\na non-existent faith (in the world of Urth where 'The Flood and Jesus never\nhappened' - assuming this is a correct assumption) 'interact' with a sort of\nalternate 'paganism'? Is this a more or less *allegorical* move on Wolfe's\npart, where we see Severian the Christ-*like* figure in the midst of pagan\n'lostness' and draw the parallels to our own experienced history of earth?\n\nOr is it just all wrong to assume this is happening in some other galaxy or\nuniverse or what have you and that we are indeed witnessing a far future of\nour own earth with often vague but persistent traces of the Catholic faith\n(that is then parodied in BotLS)?\n\nI believe it is said Wolfe himself said BotNS was happening in our remote\npast. But do we have to trust him on this?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 2:33 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "David Stockhoff- Actually, the assumption that at least most life in the\nNS/LS/SS\nuniverse has the same biochemistry. The inhumi feed on both humans and\nNeighbors, for example. And then you have the alzabo." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yep. And The Mother and Seawrack are down there eating drowned human\nsailors and, I\nthink, Neighbor sailors before that. That's the picture I get from the Sun\nseries-\na galaxy of creatures able to eat each other and share their physical and\nmental\nbeing and existence.\n\nIs this because Urthly humans spread out across the galaxy and mutated into\na myriad\nof creatures? Or is it because a parasitic race feeding on multiple species\nserve\nas a vector for genetic sharing and splicing, like a virus for bacteria\ncells or even\noncogenes in humans. Perhaps some combination of these processes?\n\nI think the suggestions for this stuff are clear to see in the story.\nIdentifying exactly\nwhich process created each superhuman character is probably not so\nimportant. Only the\npossibilities matter, which is all I've ever argued for.\n\n\nFor me, the underpinnings of BotNS are as an exploration of the interaction\nbetween\npagan gods and Judeo-Christianity. Wolfe did this by creating an Earth twin\nwhere\nThe Flood and Jesus never happened, allowing the pagan gods to have\ncontinued dominion\nfar into the future of where we on Earth are now.\n\nI'm glad Wolfe gave us various possibilities for the origin of such\ncreatures as Erebus,\nZeus, Typhon, Gabriel, Odin, Arioch, Abaia, Tzadkiel, etc. But at the end\nof the day, for\nthe purpose of this story, I think it is more important to understand what\nthey are rather\nthan where they came from.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T15:58:10+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA08476.2000203@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 4:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nCopper-based life seems to prove the rule by not existing here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hemocyanins (also spelled haemocyanins) are respiratory proteins in\nthe form of metalloproteins containing two copper atoms that\nreversibly bind a single oxygen molecule (O2). Oxygenation causes a\ncolor change between the colorless Cu(I) deoxygenated form and the\nblue Cu(II) oxygenated form. Hemocyanins carry oxygen in the hemolymph\nof most molluscs, and some arthropods, including the horseshoe crab,\nLimulus polyphemus. They are second only to hemoglobin in biological\npopularity of use in oxygen transport.[1] Unlike the hemoglobin in red\nblood cells found in vertebrates, hemocyanins are not bound to blood\ncells but are instead suspended directly in the hemolymph.\n\n(from Wikipedia)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<447283.78785.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nicholas Jost", "address": "nickjost at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T16:19:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "________________________________\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \n\nTyphon's resurrection by Severian is not reasonably believable as a \nbiological process, and I certainly did not casually accept it as one \nwhen I first read the books, or the third time. But it is just as \nbelievable as the result of Severian's time-bending superpowers as any \nother resurrection in the books.\n************************************\n\nWhy is it always assumed that Severian brought him back? There\nis none of the mythic special effects around his contact with Typhon.\nHowever, there is a blood sacrifice and associated special effects\nwhen Little Sev dies. On my reading I always assumed that the\n\"magic\" ring sucked down Little Sev's soul and used it to power\nthe monster Typhon. Its not like we don't have soul sucking\nmonsters in these stories with meta-physic complications\nrunning around. Little Sev dies and Typhoon rises. The \ndragon done ate 'im.\n\nNicholas Jost\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T17:33:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<447283.78785.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen- My question is just *how* does he do this in BotNS? How does\na non-existent faith (in the world of Urth where 'The Flood and Jesus never\nhappened' - assuming this is a correct assumption) 'interact' with a sort of\nalternate 'paganism'?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI find the strongest clues to this in Dr. Talos' play (which I admit I found almost\nimpenetrable in my earlier readings of this story). It is laced with demons and giants,\nNephilim, Adam and Eve types, hints at human-demon matings, etc. Reading Genesis:6\nhelped me a lot in understanding this play. From a Bible Answers site:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Nephilim (“fallen ones, giants”) were the offspring of sexual relationships between \nthe sons of God and daughters of men in Genesis 6:1-4. There is much debate as to the \nidentity of the “sons of God.” It is our contention that the “sons of God” were fallen \nangels (demons) who mated with human females and/or possessed human males and then mated \nwith human females. These unions resulted in offspring, the Nephilim, that were “heroes of \nold, men of renown” " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nGreek (and some other) mythology is full of monsters but also pagan gods who sometimes came \ndown to earth in human form to mate with real humans. The result of such matings was quite \noften a hero, like Hercules, Theseus and Perseus. Same story as Genesis 6 but from a different \nperspective.\n \nIt was The Flood which rid earth of most of its evil; Nephilim and presumably most of the fallen\nangels and their demon offpring. I (and perhaps Gene Wolfe) consider The Flood as allegory for\nhow Judeo-Christianity swept away the earlier pagan religions.\n \nMy interpretation of Gene Wolfe's view is that The Flood was a far more significant event in the \nremoval of evil from Earth than the coming of Jesus. Thus Severian's role on Urth is far more about \nbeing the New Sun and creating Ushas than providing personal salvation. \n \nThe pagan gods/demons of old were far too powerful for human beings to resist if they took a mind \nto possessing, raping and/or corrupting a person. After the Flood it was more of a fair fight and \nthe salvation of Jesus is enough to fight off evil, for those who accept it.\n \nIn BotNS we have some alien beings who come down to Urth and get directly involved with the people, \ngetting mixed up in politics and witchcraft and stirring up wars etc. I suspect some human/alien\nmatings also, though they are hidden. They get names like Erebus and Abaia and Arioch and perhaps \nthose of 14 other megatherians . (Arioch is a fallen angel name, the rest are mythological).\n \nWe have other alien beings in BotNS who seem to keep their distance from direct interference with \nhuman beings working mostly indirectly to provide ways to keep the bossy aliens in check. These guys\nget angelic appearances and even angelic names, like Tzadkiel.\n \nAfter the Flood turns Urth into Ushas, as on Earth, the demons/monsters like Abaia and Erebus have \napparently been destroyed (this is hard to believe since they live under the ocean but I think the \nallegory is more important than the boring plot details here). A minor demon, Juturna, remains. Perhaps \nSeverian's continuing function will be to provide something like personal salvation in the face of the \nsurmountable evil she represents.\n \nMy interpretation, FWIW.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T17:45:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l: Hemocyanins carry oxygen in the hemolymph of most molluscs, and some arthropods." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nHeh, Dan'l is such a meanie. They are on a Search For Spock and he gives them slugs and bugs.\n \n;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<443366.90533.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-27T18:27:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Another possibility is that Wolfe simply chose to ignore those complications. As an engineer, he is sometimes very technical---see the remarkably elegant explanation presented in this list for the Long Sun. But he is not really a hard-SF kind of guy, not when details might get in the way, and maybe especially in terms of biology. And he's never proposed non-carbon life or non-iron blood in any story, as far as I know.\nEven if he considered one of those possibilities (we do know gene transfer is possible), he wouldn't put them out front. I suppose the inhumi do make it impossible to rule out any theory like that.\n\n\n--- On Mon, 9/27/10, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Lee Berman \nSubject: (urth) note Re: Short Sun blog\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Monday, September 27, 2010, 9:33 AM\nDavid Stockhoff- Actually, the assumption that at least most life in the NS/LS/SS \nuniverse has the same biochemistry. The inhumi feed on both humans and \nNeighbors, for example. And then you have the alzabo." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYep. And The Mother and Seawrack are down there eating drowned human sailors and, I \nthink, Neighbor sailors before that. That's the picture I get from the Sun series- \na galaxy of creatures able to eat each other and share their physical and mental \nbeing and existence.\n \nIs this because Urthly humans spread out across the galaxy and mutated into a myriad\nof creatures? Or is it because a parasitic race feeding on multiple species serve\nas a vector for genetic sharing and splicing, like a virus for bacteria cells or even\noncogenes in humans. Perhaps some combination of these processes?\n \nI think the suggestions for this stuff are clear to see in the story. Identifying exactly\nwhich process created each superhuman character is probably not so important. Only the\npossibilities matter, which is all I've ever argued for.\n \n \nFor me, the underpinnings of BotNS are as an exploration of the interaction between\npagan gods and Judeo-Christianity. Wolfe did this by creating an Earth twin where\nThe Flood and Jesus never happened, allowing the pagan gods to have continued dominion\nfar into the future of where we on Earth are now.\n \nI'm glad Wolfe gave us various possibilities for the origin of such creatures as Erebus,\nZeus, Typhon, Gabriel, Odin, Arioch, Abaia, Tzadkiel, etc. But at the end of the day, for \nthe purpose of this story, I think it is more important to understand what they are rather \nthan where they came from. ??? ???????? ?????? ??? ? " } ] }, { "message_id": "<408390.24566.qm@web84102.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-27T18:34:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Aha! Remarkable.\nBad example, then. Let's say \"silicon-based.\"\n\n--- On Mon, 9/27/10, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSubject: Re: (urth) note Re: Short Sun blog\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, September 27, 2010, 11:58 AM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 4:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nCopper-based life seems to prove the rule by not existing here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hemocyanins (also spelled haemocyanins) are respiratory proteins in\nthe form of metalloproteins containing two copper atoms that\nreversibly bind a single oxygen molecule (O2). Oxygenation causes a\ncolor change between the colorless Cu(I) deoxygenated form and the\nblue Cu(II) oxygenated form. Hemocyanins carry oxygen in the hemolymph\nof most molluscs, and some arthropods, including the horseshoe crab,\nLimulus polyphemus. They are second only to hemoglobin in biological\npopularity of use in oxygen transport.[1] Unlike the hemoglobin in red\nblood cells found in vertebrates, hemocyanins are not bound to blood\ncells but are instead suspended directly in the hemolymph.\n\n(from Wikipedia)" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<645467.89280.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-27T18:46:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<447283.78785.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps, but I believe Severian observes that Little Sev was pretty well fried. That suggests that energies were expended in frying him, causing the flash, whether or not some kind of soul extraction occurred.\nSince we know the frying occurred, you'd be proposing a doubled event consuming doubled energies and producing doubled results (death and scanning). That's too complicated. And there is no evidence that?\"soul\" scanning requires death.\n--- On Mon, 9/27/10, Nicholas Jost wrote:\n\nFrom: Nicholas Jost \nSubject: Re: (urth) note Re: Short Sun blog\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Monday, September 27, 2010, 12:19 PM\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \n\nTyphon's resurrection by Severian is not reasonably believable as a \nbiological process, and I certainly did not casually accept it as one \nwhen I first read the books, or the third time. But it is just as \nbelievable as the result of Severian's time-bending superpowers as any \nother resurrection in the books.\n************************************\n\nWhy is it always assumed that Severian brought him back?\n There\nis none of the mythic special effects around his contact with Typhon.\nHowever, there is a blood sacrifice and associated special effects\nwhen Little Sev dies. On my reading I always assumed that the\n\"magic\" ring sucked down Little Sev's soul and used it to power\nthe monster Typhon. Its not like we don't have soul sucking\nmonsters in these stories with meta-physic complications\nrunning around. Little Sev dies and Typhoon rises. The \ndragon done ate 'im.\n\nNicholas Jost\n\n\n\n\n \n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA0E67E.5050902@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T18:46:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote (27-09-2010 16:58):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 4:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Copper-based life seems to prove the rule by not existing here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hemocyanins (also spelled haemocyanins) are respiratory proteins in\nthe form of metalloproteins containing two copper atoms that\nreversibly bind a single oxygen molecule (O2). Oxygenation causes a\ncolor change between the colorless Cu(I) deoxygenated form and the\nblue Cu(II) oxygenated form. Hemocyanins carry oxygen in the hemolymph\nof most molluscs, and some arthropods, including the horseshoe crab,\nLimulus polyphemus. They are second only to hemoglobin in biological\npopularity of use in oxygen transport.[1] Unlike the hemoglobin in red\nblood cells found in vertebrates, hemocyanins are not bound to blood\ncells but are instead suspended directly in the hemolymph." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The relevant issue here are carbon-based lifeforms. Carbon-based means that \nthey're structured around compounds of carbon (and oxygen and hydrogen). As \nlogn as they are carbon-based, they are able to interact with each other at \na molecular level (i.e., digestion, immunitary response, etc). Just what \nkind of molecule carries oxygen to cells isn't that much important, as long \nas it too interacts as an organic molecule. ('Organic' is precisely the name \nChemistry gives to carbon/hydrogen/oxygen compounds, and the properties they \nexhibit and the ways theyr play together and so on.)\n\nIn fact, they way the Universe is, there is just not much room for other \npossibilities. The specific traits of hydrogen and oxygen make it that they \nare more or less irreplaceable, that is, the matter we consider as living \ncan't not depend on them. Carbon is not exactly the same, but almost. Carbon \ncan be replaced by elements with similiar chemical properties, but the fact \nthat they don't behave identically renders them unsuitable for the purpose. \nFor instance, arsenic is poisonous precisely because it can bind to \nmolecules the same way as carbon, but then changes their behaviour. Silicon \nis another element that could replace carbon, but the compounds it enters in \ndon't have the flexibility needed for life.\n\nThat's to say, differently-based lifeforms probably would be very different \nfrom the ones we know, not just somewhat different." } ] }, { "message_id": "<247387.40948.qm@web84103.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-27T18:47:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<447283.78785.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Follow-up: I think Mr Million died when he was scanned. So it's not impossible. But Typhon did not.\n\n--- On Mon, 9/27/10, Nicholas Jost wrote:\n\nFrom: Nicholas Jost \nSubject: Re: (urth) note Re: Short Sun blog\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Monday, September 27, 2010, 12:19 PM\n\n\n\n\nFrom: Jeff Wilson \n\nTyphon's resurrection by Severian is not reasonably believable as a \nbiological process, and I certainly did not casually accept it as one \nwhen I first read the books, or the third time. But it is just as \nbelievable as the result of Severian's time-bending superpowers as any \nother resurrection in the books.\n************************************\n\nWhy is it always assumed that Severian brought him back?\n There\nis none of the mythic special effects around his contact with Typhon.\nHowever, there is a blood sacrifice and associated special effects\nwhen Little Sev dies. On my reading I always assumed that the\n\"magic\" ring sucked down Little Sev's soul and used it to power\nthe monster Typhon. Its not like we don't have soul sucking\nmonsters in these stories with meta-physic complications\nrunning around. Little Sev dies and Typhoon rises. The \ndragon done ate 'im.\n\nNicholas Jost\n\n\n\n\n \n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<7E268CC35C0E47E8BD217DEC0B128075@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-09-27T19:13:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<443366.90533.qm@web84106.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There's a story in the 'Endangered Species' collection involving some sort of 'dark matter' life.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n From: DAVID STOCKHOFF \n Another possibility is that Wolfe simply chose to ignore those complications. As an engineer, he is sometimes very technical---see the remarkably elegant explanation presented in this list for the Long Sun. But he is not really a hard-SF kind of guy, not when details might get in the way, and maybe especially in terms of biology. And he's never proposed non-carbon life or non-iron blood in any story, as far as I know." } ] }, { "message_id": "<333566.98015.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-27T19:23:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<7E268CC35C0E47E8BD217DEC0B128075@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Which kind of proves my point, doesn't it?\nSounds like the biological equivalent of handwavium!\n\n--- On Mon, 9/27/10, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) note Re: Short Sun blog\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Monday, September 27, 2010, 3:13 PM\n\n\n\n \n \n\n\n \nThere's a story in the 'Endangered Species' \ncollection involving some sort of 'dark matter' life.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n From: DAVID STOCKHOFF \n Another \n possibility is that Wolfe simply chose to ignore those complications. As an \n engineer, he is sometimes very technical---see the remarkably elegant \n explanation presented in this list for the Long Sun. But he is not really a \n hard-SF kind of guy, not when details might get in the way, and maybe \n especially in terms of biology. And he's never proposed non-carbon life or \n non-iron blood in any story, as far as I know. \n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005301cb5e7a$d1f4e620$edcd4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-09-27T19:33:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<447283.78785.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Nicholas Jost wrote:\nWhy is it always assumed that Severian brought him back? There\nis none of the mythic special effects around his contact with Typhon.\nHowever, there is a blood sacrifice and associated special effects\nwhen Little Sev dies. On my reading I always assumed that the\n\"magic\" ring sucked down Little Sev's soul and used it to power\nthe monster Typhon. Its not like we don't have soul sucking\nmonsters in these stories with meta-physic complications\nrunning around. Little Sev dies and Typhoon rises. The\ndragon done ate 'im." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon had been revived before Little Sev died. That's how he knew Sev had\nthe Claw. He said he was watching when Sev tried to use it to bring back the\nboy.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Nick Lee", "address": "starwaterstrain at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T19:46:09+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<005301cb5e7a$d1f4e620$edcd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Another possibility is that Wolfe simply chose to ignore those\ncomplications. As an engineer, he is sometimes very technical---see the\nremarkably elegant explanation presented in this list for the Long >Sun. But\nhe is not really a hard-SF kind of guy, not when details might get in the\nway, and maybe especially in terms of biology. And he's never proposed\nnon-carbon life or non-iron blood in any story, as >far as I know.\nEven if he considered one of those possibilities (we do know gene transfer\nis possible), he wouldn't put them out front. I suppose the inhumi do make\nit impossible to rule out any theory like that." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Wolfe wrote about a species of mechanical life forms early in his career.\nThe story appears in the collection The Island of Dr. Death and Other\nStories and Other Stories. The name escapes me, and I'm not near my\nbookshelf at the moment. Wolfe's written about non-humanoid, bizarre\ncreatures, but those creatures in the Sun cycle tend to have certain basic\nsimilarities. I hate to use a Star Trek explanation, but the Sun series\nappears to be set more or less in the Earth neighborhood, and the\nsimilarities seem to be excused in part by this and by genetic tampering by\nadvanced races (gods). This is creation myth with the gods as aliens.\n\nThe inhumi seem to me to just be a sort of reverse-virus. Instead of them\ninfecting humans, the humans (or other prey) \"infect\" them with genetic\ninformation. Blood is just the medium. Also, this idea that aliens could be\nnon-carbon based is just wild theory. We have no idea what aliens would look\nlike, and in all likelihood they are carbon-based because that's easiest way\nfor life to arise." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T19:51:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Nick Lee wrote:\nAlso, this idea that aliens could be\nnon-carbon based is just wild theory. We have no idea what aliens would look\nlike, and in all likelihood they are carbon-based because that's easiest way\nfor life to arise." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "While it's true that 100% of the life forms we know are carbon based,\nwe are looking at a very localized sample. We have no idea what\nchemical or other bases may actually produce life. Any physical\nstructure which can replicate itself (just-slightly-imperfectly), and\nexists in an environment in which it can do so, is likely to become\nsome sort of life." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<817705.32139.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nicholas Jost", "address": "nickjost at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T20:10:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "David Stackoff:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps, but I believe Severian observes that Little Sev was pretty well fried. \nThat suggests that energies were \n\nexpended in frying him, causing the flash, whether or not some kind of soul \nextraction occurred.\nSince we know the frying occurred, you'd be proposing a doubled event consuming \ndoubled energies \n\nand producing doubled results (death and scanning). That's too complicated. \nAnd there is \n\nno evidence that?\"soul\" scanning requires death." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This doesn't have to be the same as any previous event and in a sacrifice the \nvictim has a good chance of being consumed in the act. Little Sev is a blood \nSacrifice at what can only be called the Temple of the Demi-God Typhoon. At \nthat point Typhon appears. No more energy is required in the consumption than a \npillar of fire descending to eat a goat (a traditional effect). Is there more \nevidence for Severian doing it? I'm not aware of any in the text.\n\nNicholas Jost\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<566415.41545.qm@web37901.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "Nicholas Jost", "address": "nickjost at yahoo.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T20:50:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<817705.32139.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Nicholas Jost wrote:\nWhy is it always assumed that Severian brought him back? There\nis none of the mythic special effects around his contact with Typhon.\nHowever, there is a blood sacrifice and associated special effects\nwhen Little Sev dies. On my reading I always assumed that the\n\"magic\" ring sucked down Little Sev's soul and used it to power\nthe monster Typhon. Its not like we don't have soul sucking\nmonsters in these stories with meta-physic complications\nrunning around. Little Sev dies and Typhoon rises. The\ndragon done ate 'im." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon had been revived before Little Sev died. That's how he knew Sev had\nthe Claw. He said he was watching when Sev tried to use it to bring back the\nboy.\n\n-Roy" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Assuming Typhoon isn't lying through his teeth, how does that effect my theory? \nSince:\nLil' Sev dies and then Big Sev tries to resurrect? If Typhoon is brought back \nvia the \n\nsacrifice and has access to a good old fashioned security camera his story pans \nout. I'm \n\nnot finding a temporal issue here.\n\nNicholas Jost\n\n\n\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Daniel Petersen", "address": "danielottojackpetersen at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T21:27:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ok, Lee, thanks for your thoughts. You've got me thinking more about the\nflood, especially considering *Urth of the New Sun* features the realisation\nof this. The meddling/protecting aliens to some extent representing\ndark/light angels is also interesting.\n\nHowever, that Wolfe finds the Flood more significant than the coming of\nJesus seems very hard to swallow indeed, especially considering the\ncentrality of the 'bread and wine' (body and blood) of the minor 'wine god'\nwho is said to be another aspect of the Outsider in Long and Short Suns, the\nsharing of which (bread and wine) seems to always bring an epiphany or\ntheophany (supernatural not digitized). Even in BotNS Severian muses that\nthe Conciliator uses his Claw on himself not others (self-sacrifice to save\nothers). And surely we're meant to hear echoes of the coming of The Son in\nthe bringing of the New Sun. (See also the real-life contemporary hymn on\nthis theme that Wolfe incorporated into his Evil Guest novel.)\n\nPerhaps we should see Flood and Jesus/Cross/Reconciliation themes coming\ntogether in the concept of the Ark that shelters and saves from the flood\nthose who are 'hidden' in it/Him. Does Wolfe's work bring this out at all?\nAt any rate, with a central name like Conciliator in New Sun and the theme\nof blood in Long and Short, the 'person and work of Jesus Christ' (what\ntheologians call 'christology') really seems like the major\n*theological*category and theme to Wolfe's Solar Cycle. (I know there\nare also major\npsychological, sociological, philosophical and perhaps other categories and\nthemes as well.)\n\nHm, I'm starting to wonder if perhaps this theological area is like the\ndiscussions on biology and other scientific aspects of the cycle. Maybe we\nshouldn't press for too many highly consistent details and instead simply\n'feel' the resonances of the works as a whole and allow them to do their\nliterary and imaginative work on us." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 6:33 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Daniel Petersen- My question is just *how* does he do this in BotNS? How\ndoes\na non-existent faith (in the world of Urth where 'The Flood and Jesus\nnever\nhappened' - assuming this is a correct assumption) 'interact' with a sort\nof\nalternate 'paganism'?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find the strongest clues to this in Dr. Talos' play (which I admit I\nfound almost\nimpenetrable in my earlier readings of this story). It is laced with demons\nand giants,\nNephilim, Adam and Eve types, hints at human-demon matings, etc. Reading\nGenesis:6\nhelped me a lot in understanding this play. From a Bible Answers site:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Nephilim (“fallen ones, giants”) were the offspring of sexual\nrelationships between\nthe sons of God and daughters of men in Genesis 6:1-4. There is much\ndebate as to the\nidentity of the “sons of God.” It is our contention that the “sons of God”" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "were fallen\nangels (demons) who mated with human females and/or possessed human males\nand then mated\nwith human females. These unions resulted in offspring, the Nephilim, that\nwere “heroes of\nold, men of renown”\n\nGreek (and some other) mythology is full of monsters but also pagan gods\nwho sometimes came\ndown to earth in human form to mate with real humans. The result of such\nmatings was quite\noften a hero, like Hercules, Theseus and Perseus. Same story as Genesis 6\nbut from a different\nperspective.\n\nIt was The Flood which rid earth of most of its evil; Nephilim and\npresumably most of the fallen\nangels and their demon offpring. I (and perhaps Gene Wolfe) consider The\nFlood as allegory for\nhow Judeo-Christianity swept away the earlier pagan religions.\n\nMy interpretation of Gene Wolfe's view is that The Flood was a far more\nsignificant event in the\nremoval of evil from Earth than the coming of Jesus. Thus Severian's role\non Urth is far more about\nbeing the New Sun and creating Ushas than providing personal salvation.\n\nThe pagan gods/demons of old were far too powerful for human beings to\nresist if they took a mind\nto possessing, raping and/or corrupting a person. After the Flood it was\nmore of a fair fight and\nthe salvation of Jesus is enough to fight off evil, for those who accept\nit.\n\nIn BotNS we have some alien beings who come down to Urth and get directly\ninvolved with the people,\ngetting mixed up in politics and witchcraft and stirring up wars etc. I\nsuspect some human/alien\nmatings also, though they are hidden. They get names like Erebus and Abaia\nand Arioch and perhaps\nthose of 14 other megatherians . (Arioch is a fallen angel name, the rest\nare mythological).\n\nWe have other alien beings in BotNS who seem to keep their distance from\ndirect interference with\nhuman beings working mostly indirectly to provide ways to keep the bossy\naliens in check. These guys\nget angelic appearances and even angelic names, like Tzadkiel.\n\nAfter the Flood turns Urth into Ushas, as on Earth, the demons/monsters\nlike Abaia and Erebus have\napparently been destroyed (this is hard to believe since they live under\nthe ocean but I think the\nallegory is more important than the boring plot details here). A minor\ndemon, Juturna, remains. Perhaps\nSeverian's continuing function will be to provide something like personal\nsalvation in the face of the\nsurmountable evil she represents.\n\nMy interpretation, FWIW.\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA10E25.5020208@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T21:35:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " On 9/27/2010 2:51 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Mon, Sep 27, 2010 at 12:46 PM, Nick Lee wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Also, this idea that aliens could be\nnon-carbon based is just wild theory. We have no idea what aliens would look\nlike, and in all likelihood they are carbon-based because that's easiest way\nfor life to arise." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "While it's true that 100% of the life forms we know are carbon based,\nwe are looking at a very localized sample. We have no idea what\nchemical or other bases may actually produce life. Any physical\nstructure which can replicate itself (just-slightly-imperfectly), and\nexists in an environment in which it can do so, is likely to become\nsome sort of life." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Still there's presumably nothing to have prevented a non-carbon-based \nlife form from having occurred on Earth along side a carbon-based \nversion. On the other hand, even though the carbon-based version \nappeared on Earth --in geologic terms-- as soon as the planet was cool \nenough to do so, it only happened here once in 3.5 billion years. So \nmaybe carbon isn't all that likely an element either.\n\n~u+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA1367E.9030605@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T00:27:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<005301cb5e7a$d1f4e620$edcd4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 27/09/10 20:33, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nTyphon had been revived before Little Sev died. That's how he knew Sev had\nthe Claw. He said he was watching when Sev tried to use it to bring back the\nboy.\n\n-Roy\n\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, Big Sev actually asks Typhon why he didn't warn them about the \nring, acknowledging that Typhon was revived and aware and watching them \neven as they stumbled about the lower slopes of Mt. Typhon. (Typhon \nreplies that he had no interest in them at the time.)\n\nIf Severian is responsible for Typhon's revival, it happened a tad \nearlier, during his first visit to the Cursed Town immediately before \nLittle Sev's demise, when they both view the dessicated corpse of a two \nheaded monster in the round building. AFter that they have a weary climb \nto the mountain's left shoulder and arm, leaving plenty of time for a \nrevived Typhon to watch them.\n\nThe chapter (3:24) is entitled 'The Corpse'. One is left uncertain \nwhether this title refers to Typhon, to Little Sev, or to both.\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA141A2.1040505@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T01:15:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA08476.2000203@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/27/2010 6:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nActually, the assumption that at least most life in the NS/LS/SS\nuniverse has the same biochemistry. The inhumi feed on both humans and\nNeighbors, for example. And then you have the alzabo.\n\nCopper-based life seems to prove the rule by not existing here.\n\nHowever, seamless transplantation does go too far." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "These are not representative samples of a virgin field; there's been at \nleast one intergalactic empire carrying Urth's genome and human \nchauvanism outward, and that same chauvanism along with exploitation, \ngreed, enterprise, philanthropy, and sentimentality affect what is \nbrought back and sought for further study aside from whatever scientific \nobjectivity may remain. Blue and Green could have been chose from \nprevious records of compatible biology even if it had somehow gone \nuntainted after chiliads of empire, and the alzabo and destrier are \nclearly useful for certain purposes, though the alzabo apparently \nescaped into the wild before it could be domesticated.\n\nThe truly alien things that Hethor summons could have all sort of weird \nbiochemistries - the notules may not even *be* biochemical in the strict \nsense." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T01:31:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA141A2.1040505@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Daniel Petersen: Ok, Lee, thanks for your thoughts. You've got me thinking more about the\nflood, especially considering *Urth of the New Sun* features the realisation\nof this. The meddling/protecting aliens to some extent representing\ndark/light angels is also interesting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMy pleasure :- )." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, that Wolfe finds the Flood more significant than the coming ofJesus seems very hard to \nswallow indeed." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI feared this misunderstanding but, as usual, I also fear overexplaining in any given post. Quite\nthe contrary; as a devout Catholic I must guess Wolfe finds the coming and continued presence of \nJesus to be of primary importance.\n \nWhat I suggest is that Wolfe finds The Flood as more important to ridding the world of evil (an \nevil which produced our legends of monster, fallen angels and pagan gods). That was a battle \nbeyond our human abilities. But clear in the BotNS text is an admonition to Severian that the war, \nthe battle, his life is about more than a simple struggle between good and evil.\n \n \nThe Flood taking out our superhuman enemies was necessary but it merely set the stage for Jesus and \nhis impact. I think maybe, for Wolfe, the impact of Jesus is more individualized. He assists us in \nour battle against personal demons and thus in our modern world he holds far more significance than \nthe Titanic, Olympian battles of the ante-diluvian period. \n \n(I see a parallel to this in Tolkein also, with the cosmic Silmarillion wars vs. the somewhat smaller,\nmore personal battles found in the Trilogy, then the even smaller, more personal battle at the end, \nThe Scouring of the Shire)\n \nIf I may indulge a little in meta-analysis I find it interesting that I find Severian to be an old \nfriend...someone I know well and feel I understand. In contrast I find his Creator to be cryptic, \nbaffling and quite elusive to my understanding." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Maybe we shouldn't press for too many highly consistent details and instead simply 'feel' the \nresonances of the works as a whole and allow them to do their literary and imaginative work on us." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI tend to agree with this. Yet still I spend time trying to winnow out details. BotNS was written in\na time period rather significantly before the internet. And, imho, the majority of deep analysis has\nonly been accomplished after the internet and the incredible assistance it provides for both research\nand inter-personal communication and idea-sharing.\n \nWolfe must surely have known that very, very few readers would have been able to match his paired \nscholarship and devious, puzzle-making mind, back then. So perhaps he never expected us to really get\nit. But perhaps another part of him always hoped we would.\n \nShort Sun was written in the internet age and I tend to think its intensely cryptic nature is partly a\nresponse to the success of analysis of BotNS that was being achieved. Part of him surely doesn't want\nus to fully get it, after all ;- ). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA148FF.3010203@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T01:46:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4ACA1715B040427DB27CBBF0867A3728@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/27/2010 7:14 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\n *From:* Jane Delawney \n On 26/09/10 12:10, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": " All these fantastic biological processes are casually accepted yet a slight\n protein readjustment in the histamines of a human-appearing alien by the best\n doctors of an interplanetary empire to suppress organ rejection is deemed\n impossible?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Not impossible; just very very improbable :)\n\n Unless it is to be believed that all lifeforms everywhere in the\n universe share a common biochemistry, it's about as believable that\n an alien Typhon would be able to receive human organs (or body\n parts, whatever) as it is that a human woman would be able to bear\n the child of an alien being with copper-based blood, as occurs in\n that well known /fantasy/ series Star Trek.\n\nOf course, it is not very probable according to conventional\nevolutionary theory (admittedly, Wolfe has a penchant for Lamarckism)\nthat the native animals and plants of St.Anne would be edible to humans,\nor that humans would be edible to alzabo, for that matter. Indeed, the\nalzabo seems to have evolved a solution which is radically more\neffective and biologically implausible than the transplantation of human\norgans!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The memories supposedly only last a few days in the living beast, which \ncould be in line with \"normal\" tissue rejection. It's also probable that \nthe alzabo of Urth is altered from its native alien form, if it isn't \nactually the descendant of bear-men upon whom the memory-assimilation \nwas grafted after being reverse engineered." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA14A3F.3080407@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-28T01:51:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA141A2.1040505@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " With which no one ever tried to mate, one hopes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/27/2010 9:15 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 9/27/2010 6:48 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Actually, the assumption that at least most life in the NS/LS/SS\nuniverse has the same biochemistry. The inhumi feed on both humans and\nNeighbors, for example. And then you have the alzabo.\n\nCopper-based life seems to prove the rule by not existing here.\n\nHowever, seamless transplantation does go too far." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "These are not representative samples of a virgin field; there's been \nat least one intergalactic empire carrying Urth's genome and human \nchauvanism outward, and that same chauvanism along with exploitation, \ngreed, enterprise, philanthropy, and sentimentality affect what is \nbrought back and sought for further study aside from whatever \nscientific objectivity may remain. Blue and Green could have been \nchose from previous records of compatible biology even if it had \nsomehow gone untainted after chiliads of empire, and the alzabo and \ndestrier are clearly useful for certain purposes, though the alzabo \napparently escaped into the wild before it could be domesticated.\n\nThe truly alien things that Hethor summons could have all sort of \nweird biochemistries - the notules may not even *be* biochemical in \nthe strict sense." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA14BD7.9020100@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T01:58:47+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<447283.78785.qm@web37903.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/27/2010 11:19 AM, Nicholas Jost wrote:\n\n\n------------------------------------------------------------------------\n**\nFrom: Jeff Wilson >\n\nTyphon's resurrection by Severian is not reasonably believable as a\nbiological process, and I certainly did not casually accept it as one\nwhen I first read the books, or the third time. But it is just as\nbelievable as the result of Severian's time-bending superpowers as any\nother resurrection in the books.\n************************************\n\nWhy is it always assumed that Severian brought him back? There\nis none of the mythic special effects around his contact with Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There don't need to be, any more than when Dorcas or Triskele revived." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, there is a blood sacrifice and associated special effects\nwhen Little Sev dies. On my reading I always assumed that the\n\"magic\" ring sucked down Little Sev's soul and used it to power\nthe monster Typhon." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Were you reading the book manga-style? Typhon is already up and around \nand watching when Little Severian is incinerated." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T12:29:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA14BD7.9020100@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Typhon's resurrection by Severian is not reasonably believable as a\nbiological process, and I certainly did not casually accept it as one." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI find this to be a puzzling sentiment. Surely it doesn't imply that Typhon is not a\nliving being. It could imply the process is outside our current scientific capabilities\nbut we already knew that.\n \nDoes it mean there is some magic or divine power present in BotNS which somehow bypasses\nthe role of cells, proteins, DNA and goes directly to some mystical life essence? I don't\nfind this to be in the spirit of BotNS or SF in general.\n \n(even Tzadkiel's finger transformation gets compared to sponge cellular action) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA1F4A9.2090904@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T13:59:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA14A3F.3080407@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/27/2010 8:51 PM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nWith which no one ever tried to mate, one hopes." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Probably not, but their alien nature may be a plus in that they are not \nrecognized as foreign matter. If they are something like animated sheets \nof graphite, a human body's innards would only gradually antagonize \nthem, like a tattoo that takes years to fade. A canny victim might \nescape smothering by gashing their arm and covering their nose and \nmouth, so that the notules enter the wound as the hottest exposed flesh. \n If the notules heal, grow, and/or reproduce by adding carbon from \nliving compounds to their graphite sheet, you'd have a tattoo that would \nactually darken as time went by, and one hell of a story to go with it." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA1F84D.5080109@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T14:14:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/28/2010 7:29 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Typhon's resurrection by Severian is not reasonably believable as a\nbiological process, and I certainly did not casually accept it as one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I find this to be a puzzling sentiment. Surely it doesn't imply that Typhon is not a\nliving being. It could imply the process is outside our current scientific capabilities\nbut we already knew that.\n\nDoes it mean there is some magic or divine power present in BotNS which somehow bypasses\nthe role of cells, proteins, DNA and goes directly to some mystical life essence? I don't\nfind this to be in the spirit of BotNS or SF in general." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hello?! The Conciliator?!? Wields the Increate-given power to \nselectively turn back the clock? Jader's sister's illness doesn't \nsubside and heal, it's just suddenly gone and she looks as healthy as if \nshe had never been ill. Other healing and resurrections are less \ncomplete, but in their limited extent they remain nigh-instantaneous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(even Tzadkiel's finger transformation gets compared to sponge cellular action) \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "His transformations may be basically biological, but they defy anything \nlike the rate of biological processes. But since he/she is a genetically \naltered alien being that strides across the universes and dwells where \nentropy is reversed even without divine intervention, it's not hard to \nsee there might be more to it than the days it takes for a caterpillar \nto digest itself and grow new parts. Tzad doesn't even have a sandwich." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T16:27:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA1F84D.5080109@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Hello?! The Conciliator?!? Wields the Increate-given power to selectively \nturn back the clock? Jader's sister's illness doesn't subside and heal, it's just suddenly \ngone and she looks as healthy as if she had never been ill. Other healing and resurrections \nare less complete, but in their limited extent they remain nigh-instantaneous." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'm not sure of your point, Jeff. Is it that Wolfe's work contains powers and processes which\nare \"Increate-given\" making them, by definition, beyond science, math or any other possible \nsystem of human understanding?\n \nOr do you mean that if time is reversed or skipped over, then that becomes a function of \nphysics and not biology?\n \nI think the first may be an individualized issue, partly dependent on one's own view of God\nand the supernatural. I would agree with the second.\n \nI think I'll disagree with your premise that speeding up biological processes up the point of \nappearing instantaneous transforms them out of the realm of biology. There are many examples\nin the animal kingdom of behavior so rapid and instantaneous it seems magical until slowed by\nphotography (bombadier beetles, bumble bee wings and cuttlefish color patterns come to mind).\n \nBy analogy, what modern computers can do might seem magical to most people from the 40's even\nif they had heard of computers. But I suspect the creators of ENIAC, while impressed by the \nspeed of our computers, would still recognize them as electronic in nature.\n \n \n[I think cuttlefish pattern changes are amazing. This video shows an instantaneous switch from \nthe strobing used to confuse prey to the camouflage used to hide from predators]\n \nhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dF-jHp-5XfU \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<8e74367d8a4bf110397bf7f138782b6f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T19:29:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think I'll disagree with your premise that speeding up biological\nprocesses up the point of\nappearing instantaneous transforms them out of the realm of biology. There\nare many examples\nin the animal kingdom of behavior so rapid and instantaneous it seems\nmagical until slowed by\nphotography (bombadier beetles, bumble bee wings and cuttlefish color\npatterns come to mind)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[I think cuttlefish pattern changes are amazing. This video shows an\ninstantaneous switch from\nthe strobing used to confuse prey to the camouflage used to hide from\npredators]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Their chromatophores are quick, but not so quick they transcend entropy\nand conservation of mass-energy, unlike Jader's sister and Tzadkiel.\nUnless the fingerling was only hidden in the finger, pre-transformed,\nwhich is a possibility." } ] }, { "message_id": "<687576.92199.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-28T19:33:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<8e74367d8a4bf110397bf7f138782b6f.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I took the sponge comparison as a metaphor. It does not strike me as a biological process.\nBut at least it isn't hostile to life---as so many sci-fi-physics transformations must be, from scanning to teleporting.\n\n--- On Tue, 9/28/10, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Jeff Wilson \nSubject: Re: (urth) note Re: Short Sun blog\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Tuesday, September 28, 2010, 3:29 PM\nI think I'll disagree with your premise that speeding up biological\nprocesses up the point of\nappearing instantaneous transforms them out of the realm of biology. There\nare many examples\nin the animal kingdom of behavior so rapid and instantaneous it seems\nmagical until slowed by\nphotography (bombadier beetles, bumble bee wings and cuttlefish color\npatterns come to mind)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "[I think cuttlefish pattern changes are amazing. This video shows an\ninstantaneous switch from\nthe strobing used to confuse prey to the camouflage used to hide from\npredators]" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Their chromatophores are quick, but not so quick they transcend entropy\nand conservation of mass-energy, unlike Jader's sister and Tzadkiel.\nUnless the fingerling was only hidden in the finger, pre-transformed,\nwhich is a possibility." } ] }, { "message_id": "<001401cb5f51$8ed67480$55ce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-09-28T21:10:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA1F84D.5080109@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nHello?! The Conciliator?!? Wields the Increate-given power to\nselectively turn back the clock? Jader's sister's illness doesn't\nsubside and heal, it's just suddenly gone and she looks as healthy as if\nshe had never been ill. Other healing and resurrections are less\ncomplete, but in their limited extent they remain nigh-instantaneous." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Dorcas is the one who came up with the theory that Sev's powers involved\nturning back time to a point before the injury or illness occurred. That\ntheory is disproved by Sev's refashioning of Herena's withered arm into a\nnormal arm. Her withered arm was a birth defect; there had never been a time\nwhen the arm had been normal. That power, and the power to bring the dead\nback to life, was a supernatural power.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA2962D.8040709@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-29T01:28:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<687576.92199.qm@web84105.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/28/2010 2:33 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nI took the sponge comparison as a metaphor. It does not strike me as a\nbiological process.\n\nBut at least it isn't hostile to life---as so many sci-fi-physics\ntransformations must be, from scanning to teleporting." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thinking more about it, it makes sense for a size-changing, \ndetachable-body-part giant to have decentralized viscera. There might \nalready be hearts and lung tissue, notochords, etc distributed through \nout a Hierogrammate's body to assist in perfusion and reflexive \nmovement, but it's still a stretch to have giants who suffer square-cube \nlaw problems like Baldanders and Juturna in the same book as beings who \ncan reformulate huge finger bones into a normal-scale full skeleton in \nseconds without even a hint of waste heat or other biological side \neffects, if both are equally biological in nature." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA29F68.5030800@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-29T02:07:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<001401cb5f51$8ed67480$55ce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/28/2010 4:10 PM, Roy C. Lackey wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hello?! The Conciliator?!? Wields the Increate-given power to\nselectively turn back the clock? Jader's sister's illness doesn't\nsubside and heal, it's just suddenly gone and she looks as healthy as if\nshe had never been ill. Other healing and resurrections are less\ncomplete, but in their limited extent they remain nigh-instantaneous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dorcas is the one who came up with the theory that Sev's powers involved\nturning back time to a point before the injury or illness occurred. That\ntheory is disproved by Sev's refashioning of Herena's withered arm into a\nnormal arm. Her withered arm was a birth defect; there had never been a time\nwhen the arm had been normal. That power, and the power to bring the dead\nback to life, was a supernatural power." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course it's supernatural - but it can also be a time-bending effect, \njust like Sampson's strength was supernatural but also was physical \nmanipulation. If there are other Severians, there can be other Herenas \nwith good arms.\n\nThere's similar effect in \"What Rough Beast\", by Wolfe's cultivator, \nDamon Knight: the \"great rabbi\" heals a shut-in girl's disfiguring burn \nby replacing the cells from not-burned timelines. However, the healed \nskin is browner than the rest of her because in those timelines she was \ncomfortable with her body image and went sunbathing at the beach." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-29T03:13:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA29F68.5030800@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey- That power, and the power to bring the dead back to life, was a supernatural power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Of course it's supernatural" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \n \nSupernatural only to 21st century primitives who managed to use their puny millenium or two of \nscientific study to advance their understanding of the universe past alchemy, phlogiston and \nluminiferous aether to their quasi-religious beliefs in \"entropy\" and \"conservation of mass-energy\"\n \nWe of Urth's First Empire have 30,000 more years of science at our disposal and thus have over 15x more \nadvanced knowledge of the universe and its possibilities. Yet we should not debase ourselves with hubris \nand should decline to snicker at the neo-Neanderthals who struggled desperately with their simple \nEinsteinian-Planckian-Hawkingsian knowledge of physics and felt they had it all figured out, even as they\nneeded a supreme effort just to travel to Lune. ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA2D83A.5060307@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-29T06:10:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/28/2010 10:13 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Roy C. Lackey- That power, and the power to bring the dead back to life, was a supernatural power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Of course it's supernatural" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Supernatural only to 21st century primitives who managed to use their puny millenium or two of\nscientific study to advance their understanding of the universe past alchemy, phlogiston and\nluminiferous aether to their quasi-religious beliefs in \"entropy\" and \"conservation of mass-energy\"\n\nWe of Urth's First Empire have 30,000 more years of science at our disposal and thus have over 15x more\nadvanced knowledge of the universe and its possibilities. Yet we should not debase ourselves with hubris\nand should decline to snicker at the neo-Neanderthals who struggled desperately with their simple\nEinsteinian-Planckian-Hawkingsian knowledge of physics and felt they had it all figured out, even as they\nneeded a supreme effort just to travel to Lune. ;- ) \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The only problem with that is it would make the First Imperials more \ntranscendent than the Yesodis. I also find it funny that trillions of \npeople on millions of worlds progress at the same rate as we poor \nbenighted earthlings paddling around the kiddie pool of the universe." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<005901cb5fa6$310aeac0$32cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-09-29T07:16:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA29F68.5030800@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote, quoted and wrote:\nHello?! The Conciliator?!? Wields the Increate-given power to\nselectively turn back the clock? Jader's sister's illness doesn't\nsubside and heal, it's just suddenly gone and she looks as healthy as\nif\nshe had never been ill. Other healing and resurrections are less\ncomplete, but in their limited extent they remain nigh-instantaneous." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dorcas is the one who came up with the theory that Sev's powers involved\nturning back time to a point before the injury or illness occurred. That\ntheory is disproved by Sev's refashioning of Herena's withered arm into\na\nnormal arm. Her withered arm was a birth defect; there had never been a\ntime\nwhen the arm had been normal. That power, and the power to bring the\ndead\nback to life, was a supernatural power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course it's supernatural - but it can also be a time-bending effect,\njust like Sampson's strength was supernatural but also was physical\nmanipulation. If there are other Severians, there can be other Herenas\nwith good arms." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If there are other Herenas, they aren't in the books. Anyway, I was agreeing\nwith you that Sev's power is divine in nature, not strictly biological.\n\nI shouldn't even mention other biological oddities like this:\n\n\"Ever since I sat under Master Malrubius's instruction as a child, I have\nknown that the space between the suns is far from empty; many hundreds and\nperhaps many thousands of voyages are made there. As I learned later, there\nare other things too--the undine I twice encountered had told me that she\nsometimes swam the void, and the winged being I had glimpsed in Father\nInire's book flew there.\" (URTH, chap. I, p-4)\n\nI don't think either Juturna or Tzadkiel wore spacesuits when they swam in\nthe cold vacuum of space. Tzadkiel had magical powers, so we can dismiss\nhim, but I would pay to see Juturna take a flying leap and achieve escape\nvelocity. Given her size, it must have been a lot harder to do than for an\ninhumi. But at least they would be breathing the same rarefied air. Eh?\n\nI knew I shouldn't have brought it up, but I missed my nap today and I'm\nfeeling mean. \n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA325B9.1060504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-29T11:40:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA2D83A.5060307@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " It seems to me that the whole idea of TBotNS is that there is a lot \ngoing on in the universe that seems supernatural but isn't. So this is \nan important point.\n\nBut another idea of TBotNS is that you (we) can't necessarily tell when \nyou (and Severian) have encountered the single needle in the haystack \nthat truly is. And Severian is a creature of the Yesodi \"Wizards of Oz.\"\n\nSo can we ever really tell whether the Conciliator's miracles are \nsupernatural or not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/29/2010 2:10 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 9/28/2010 10:13 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Roy C. Lackey- That power, and the power to bring the dead back to \nlife, was a supernatural power." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Of course it's supernatural" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Supernatural only to 21st century primitives who managed to use their \npuny millenium or two of\nscientific study to advance their understanding of the universe past \nalchemy, phlogiston and\nluminiferous aether to their quasi-religious beliefs in \"entropy\" and \n\"conservation of mass-energy\"\n\nWe of Urth's First Empire have 30,000 more years of science at our \ndisposal and thus have over 15x more\nadvanced knowledge of the universe and its possibilities. Yet we \nshould not debase ourselves with hubris\nand should decline to snicker at the neo-Neanderthals who struggled \ndesperately with their simple\nEinsteinian-Planckian-Hawkingsian knowledge of physics and felt they \nhad it all figured out, even as they\nneeded a supreme effort just to travel to Lune. ;- )" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The only problem with that is it would make the First Imperials more \ntranscendent than the Yesodis. I also find it funny that trillions of \npeople on millions of worlds progress at the same rate as we poor \nbenighted earthlings paddling around the kiddie pool of the universe." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-29T11:58:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA325B9.1060504@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Roy C. Lackey: Dorcas is the one who came up with the theory that Sev's powers \ninvolved turning back time to a point before the injury or illness occurred. \nThat theory is disproved by Sev's refashioning of Herena's withered arm into a \nnormal arm. Her withered arm was a birth defect; there had never been a time when \nthe arm had been normal. That power, and the power to bring the dead\nback to life, was a supernatural power." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian's power seems to express itself differently at different times. There is \nHerena. Then there is the assassin we see pass backwards through the stages of \nmummification and putrefaction on his/her path to resurrection. We have the Apu \nPunchau resurrection also to consider.\n \nThere is Severian himself whose (as I assume) self-resurrection on the Sanguinary \nField left him with a scar on his chest. Scar for Jonas also, I think. These seem \nlike an incorportation of biological processes using forward and backward time shifts. \nFie on the divine, supernatural power that relies on tissue fibrosis and maggots for \nhealing and resurrection.\n \n(p.s. don't dis my girl Dorcas ;- ) )" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't think either Juturna or Tzadkiel wore spacesuits when they swam in the cold \nvacuum of space." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nNeither did Severian or any of the sailors or jibers on the deck of the Ship. I don't\nsee the suggestion that the necklaces of air are directly manufactured by the Increate\nor supernatural in any way (though I suppose they'd appear magical to Jacques Cousteau).\n \nI don't find it impossible that the mechanism of these necklaces could be disguised or \nfurther miniaturized to appear invisible while used by a giant being, or (more likely in \nmy mind) have their function duplicated by the advanced biology of highly evolved beings." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Tzadkiel had magical powers" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nLike the youngest suitor of the Armiger's Daughter, I don't think we were meant to take the \neasy path, in seeking to understanding the text of this story.\n \nAlong with science, lying is an alternative explanation for what appears to be magic. I \nagree that dishonesty is probably the explanation for inhumi space travel. Not sure about\nundines. Their swimming between the stars could refer to the sort of dream travel that we\nsee in other Wolfe stories. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA3F2AC.7050108@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-30T02:15:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA325B9.1060504@verizon.net>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/29/2010 6:40 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:\nIt seems to me that the whole idea of TBotNS is that there is a lot\ngoing on in the universe that seems supernatural but isn't. So this is\nan important point." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Severian disagrees; *everything* in his story is supernatural to some \ndegree: \"if the Eternal Principle had rested in that curved thorn...then \nit might rest in anything, and in fact probably did rest in everything, \nin every thorn on every bush, in every drop of water in the sea. The \nthorn was a sacred Claw because all thorns were sacred Claws; the sand \nin my boots was sacred sand because it came from a beach of sacred sand. \nThe cenobites treasured up the relics of the sannyasins because the \nsannyasins had approached the Pancreator. But everything had approached \nand even touched the Pancreator, because everything had dropped from his \nhand. Everything was a relic. All the world was a relic. I drew off my \nboots, that had traveled with me so far, and threw them into the waves \nthat I might not walk shod on holy ground.\" CITADEL XXXI" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA3F62A.90302@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-30T02:30:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/29/2010 6:58 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nThere is Severian himself whose (as I assume) self-resurrection on the Sanguinary\nField left him with a scar on his chest. Scar for Jonas also, I think. These seem\nlike an incorportation of biological processes using forward and backward time shifts.\nFie on the divine, supernatural power that relies on tissue fibrosis and maggots for\nhealing and resurrection." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Considering even Jesus Christ Himself still had wounds visible to the \ndisciples after rising from death and a couple of days of decomposition, \nI'd say your standards are a tad high." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-30T11:57:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA3F62A.90302@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Your posts bring up some interesting issues, Jeff." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "JW- Considering even Jesus Christ Himself still had wounds visible to the \ndisciples after rising from death and a couple of days of decomposition, \nI'd say your standards are a tad high." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are my (and your and all others') religious beliefs and standards in issue in here?\nMy intention is to focus very narrowly and solely on Gene Wolfe's religious standards, \nbeliefs and what they mean to his work. But surely my own beliefs bias my interpretation\nof Wolfe sometimes.\n \nOthers take a different view on this issue. I remember a discussion I had with James Jordan \nin here a number of years ago. He seemed truly upset at the idea that the Nephilim in Genesis\nand Eschatology and Genesis might be the product of fallen angels mating with human women\nbecause it violated his deeply held modern/fundamentalist Christian beliefs. Steering the\ndiscussion toward the idea that demon/human matings were assumed by the ancients and could \nhave been an idea contemplated by a middle-aged, Catholic SF author from the 70's with an \ninterest in mythology was no solace to him.\n\nI think my question above may be important to our discussion." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: Severian disagrees; *everything* in his story is supernatural to some degree." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI think most Wolfe readers would agree that the passage from the beach (below) that you cite \nis one of the most poignant in all his work. But what does it mean?\n \nTo me, it means this: Animals have no sense of the natural/supernatural distinction. Water \nyour garden or part the Red Sea, it is all the same sort of process to them. Likewise, for\nGod/The Pancreator/Increate. Intrinsic, omniscient understanding that all things flow from \none source, one's own hand, erases the distinction between natural and supernatural. Jesus\nhealing the sick and a doctor healing the sick are the same thing- My Work.\n \nHuman beings, find their level of consciousness somewhere between that of animals and\nGod. Thus, only human beings have the need to create the distinction between natural and \nsupernatural as they struggle with what they feel they understand and what they don't \nunderstand; what they can create and what is beyond their ability to create.\n \nI find Severian's flash of understanding of the supernaturality of all things to be a brush \nwith complete humility and God-like consciousness. I find Jeff's qualifer, \"supernatural to \nsome degree\" to be a very human one." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"if the Eternal Principle had rested in that curved thorn...then \nit might rest in anything, and in fact probably did rest in everything, \nin every thorn on every bush, in every drop of water in the sea. The \nthorn was a sacred Claw because all thorns were sacred Claws; the sand \nin my boots was sacred sand because it came from a beach of sacred sand. \nThe cenobites treasured up the relics of the sannyasins because the \nsannyasins had approached the Pancreator. But everything had approached \nand even touched the Pancreator, because everything had dropped from his \nhand. Everything was a relic. All the world was a relic. I drew off my \nboots, that had traveled with me so far, and threw them into the waves \nthat I might not walk shod on holy ground.\" CITADEL XXXI \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA47BB2.6030201@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-30T11:59:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA3F2AC.7050108@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " But of course. If the Principle is in everything, then it is in all \nmachines, aquastors, monsters, starships, timeships, hierodules, Yesod, \nand so on, without affecting whether those things operate according to \nsupernatural or simple physical/biological/mechanical laws. They remain \nwhat they are.\n\nI should note that I meant SEVERIAN'S universe---not ours." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/29/2010 10:15 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 9/29/2010 6:40 AM, David Stockhoff wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems to me that the whole idea of TBotNS is that there is a lot\ngoing on in the universe that seems supernatural but isn't. So this is\nan important point." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Severian disagrees; *everything* in his story is supernatural to some \ndegree: \"if the Eternal Principle had rested in that curved \nthorn...then it might rest in anything, and in fact probably did rest \nin everything, in every thorn on every bush, in every drop of water in \nthe sea. The thorn was a sacred Claw because all thorns were sacred \nClaws; the sand in my boots was sacred sand because it came from a \nbeach of sacred sand. The cenobites treasured up the relics of the \nsannyasins because the sannyasins had approached the Pancreator. But \neverything had approached and even touched the Pancreator, because \neverything had dropped from his hand. Everything was a relic. All the \nworld was a relic. I drew off my boots, that had traveled with me so \nfar, and threw them into the waves that I might not walk shod on holy \nground.\" CITADEL XXXI" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-30T15:20:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA3F62A.90302@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 7:30 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nConsidering even Jesus Christ Himself still had wounds visible to the\ndisciples after rising from death and a couple of days of decomposition, I'd\nsay your standards are a tad high." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's a little confusing - He seems to have had the wounds only when\nthey were convenient. On a couple of occasions, people who knew Him\nwell would not recognize Him after the resurrection, and you'd think\nthe wounds would have been a dead giveaway." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Thomas Bitterman", "address": "tom at bitterman.net" }, "date": "2010-09-30T16:37:30+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA3F2AC.7050108@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nSeverian disagrees; *everything* in his story is supernatural to some\ndegree: \"if the Eternal Principle had rested in that curved thorn...then it\nmight rest in anything, and in fact probably did rest in everything, in\nevery thorn on every bush, in every drop of water in the sea. The thorn was\na sacred Claw because all thorns were sacred Claws; the sand in my boots was\nsacred sand because it came from a beach of sacred sand. The cenobites\ntreasured up the relics of the sannyasins because the sannyasins had\napproached the Pancreator. But everything had approached and even touched\nthe Pancreator, because everything had dropped from his hand. Everything was\na relic. All the world was a relic. I drew off my boots, that had traveled\nwith me so far, and threw them into the waves that I might not walk shod on\nholy ground.\" CITADEL XXXI" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I always felt bad for his boots at this point. They've been good boots and\ndidn't deserve such treatment. Heck, they're relics. It seems like one\ncould walk on holy ground with holy boots.\n\nI have always thought that Severian went back and fished his boots out. He\nnever mentions being barefoot later on that I can remember." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA4BF74.9080006@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-30T16:48:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Considering even Jesus Christ Himself still had wounds visible to the\ndisciples after rising from death and a couple of days of decomposition, I'd\nsay your standards are a tad high." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l-\nThat's a little confusing - He seems to have had the wounds only when\nthey were convenient. On a couple of occasions, people who knew Him\nwell would not recognize Him after the resurrection, and you'd think\nthe wounds would have been a dead giveaway." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, imprints from the nails in his wrists and ankles would not be \nreadily apparent, I think. It could be that the ability to recognize him \nat all was the miracle...not the inability of the disciples to recognize \nhim.\n\nu+169b" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-30T16:53:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA4BF74.9080006@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 9:48 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nWell, imprints from the nails in his wrists and ankles would not be readily\napparent, I think. It could be that the ability to recognize him at all was\nthe miracle...not the inability of the disciples to recognize him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "We're talking about something more than imprints in the case of Thomas\nputting his fingers and hand into the wounds..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA4C78E.9090007@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-30T17:23:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Well, imprints from the nails in his wrists and ankles would not be readily\napparent, I think. It could be that the ability to recognize him at all was\nthe miracle...not the inability of the disciples to recognize him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l -\nWe're talking about something more than imprints in the case of Thomas\nputting his fingers and hand into the wounds..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not really. Or so I would think. Drive spikes through the flesh. Pull \nthem out. You have a hole that someone could put their fingers through \nbut the flesh would be closed up otherwise.\nEither way, wounds on the wrists and ankles would not be apparent if one \nwore sleeves and his robe reached to the ground.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-30T17:27:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA4C78E.9090007@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 10:23 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nEither way, wounds on the wrists and ankles would not be apparent if one\nwore sleeves and his robe reached to the ground." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Crown of thorns would leave some pretty distinctive scars I should think..." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA4CA49.70605@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-30T17:35:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Either way, wounds on the wrists and ankles would not be apparent if one\nwore sleeves and his robe reached to the ground." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Crown of thorns would leave some pretty distinctive scars I should think..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "They probably made a bloody mess, but --assuming they weren't scabby on \nthe resurrected Christ-- once you cleaned them they would probably be no \nmore than scratches on the forehead.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-30T18:03:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<4CA4CA49.70605@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Thomas Bitterman- I always felt bad for his boots at this point. They've been good boots and\ndidn't deserve such treatment. Heck, they're relics. It seems like one\ncould walk on holy ground with holy boots." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHah, Thomas. Thanks for my daily chuckle. You'll rarely find me complaining about someone's \nneed to puncture sanctimony. Perhaps there are varying degrees of supernaturality and there's\nmore God in sand than in shoes and boots.\n \nI don't remember the boots being brought up again. Since the Samru crew thought of him as sort\nof a crazed holy man, being barefoot would go along with the image. Since the cap'n gave him a\nsword, maybe he got some boots also. Walking barefoot through the wreckage of old Nessus while\nhe tracked down Dorcas doesn't seem like a good idea." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "\"if the Eternal Principle had rested in that curved thorn...then it\nmight rest in anything, and in fact probably did rest in everything, in\nevery thorn on every bush, in every drop of water in the sea. The thorn was\na sacred Claw because all thorns were sacred Claws; the sand in my boots was\nsacred sand because it came from a beach of sacred sand. The cenobites\ntreasured up the relics of the sannyasins because the sannyasins had\napproached the Pancreator. But everything had approached and even touched\nthe Pancreator, because everything had dropped from his hand. Everything was\na relic. All the world was a relic. I drew off my boots, that had traveled\nwith me so far, and threw them into the waves that I might not walk shod on\nholy ground.\" CITADEL XXXI \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<668B27F8D12F4D0BB9BA5810F09621FA@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-09-30T19:08:23+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " ----- Original Message ----- \n From: Thomas Bitterman \n\n On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 10:15 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n Severian disagrees; *everything* in his story is supernatural to some degree: \"if the Eternal Principle had rested in that curved thorn...then it might rest in anything, and in fact probably did rest in everything, in every thorn on every bush, in every drop of water in the sea. The thorn was a sacred Claw because all thorns were sacred Claws; the sand in my boots was sacred sand because it came from a beach of sacred sand. The cenobites treasured up the relics of the sannyasins because the sannyasins had approached the Pancreator. But everything had approached and even touched the Pancreator, because everything had dropped from his hand. Everything was a relic. All the world was a relic. I drew off my boots, that had traveled with me so far, and threw them into the waves that I might not walk shod on holy ground.\" CITADEL XXXI\n\n\n I always felt bad for his boots at this point. They've been good boots and didn't deserve such treatment. Heck, they're relics. It seems like one could walk on holy ground with holy boots.\n\n I have always thought that Severian went back and fished his boots out. He never mentions being barefoot later on that I can remember.\n\nHe's the Autarch. He has more boots now than Imelda Marcos.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<247747.34414.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-30T20:23:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<668B27F8D12F4D0BB9BA5810F09621FA@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And some of them are the color that is more red than red.\n\n--- On Thu, 9/30/10, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: Gerry Quinn \nSubject: Re: (urth) note Re: Short Sun blog\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, September 30, 2010, 3:08 PM\n\n\n\n \n \n\n\n \n\n\n ----- Original Message ----- \n From: \n Thomas \n Bitterman \n ?On Wed, Sep 29, 2010 at 10:15 PM, \n Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\n \n Severian disagrees; *everything* in his story is \n supernatural to some degree: \"if the Eternal Principle had rested in that \n curved thorn...then it might rest in anything, and in fact probably did rest \n in everything, in every thorn on every bush, in every drop of water in the \n sea. The thorn was a sacred Claw because all thorns were sacred Claws; the \n sand in my boots was sacred sand because it came from a beach of sacred \n sand. The cenobites treasured up the relics of the sannyasins because the \n sannyasins had approached the Pancreator. But everything had approached and \n even touched the Pancreator, because everything had dropped from his hand. \n Everything was a relic. All the world was a relic. I drew off my boots, that \n had traveled with me so far, and threw them into the waves that I might not \n walk shod on holy ground.\" CITADEL XXXI\n\n \nI always felt bad for his boots at this point. They've been \n good boots and didn't deserve such treatment. Heck, they're \n relics. It seems like one could walk on holy ground with holy \n boots.\n\nI have always thought that Severian went back and fished his \n boots out. He never mentions being barefoot later on that I can \n remember.\n\nHe's the Autarch. He has more boots \nnow than Imelda Marcos.\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-30T20:27:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<247747.34414.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 1:23 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\nAnd some of them are the color that is more red than red." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Autarch wears Prada?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<738421.52845.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-30T20:52:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The Pope does.\n\n--- On Thu, 9/30/10, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSubject: Re: (urth) note Re: Short Sun blog\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, September 30, 2010, 4:27 PM\n\nOn Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 1:23 PM, DAVID STOCKHOFF wrote:\n\nAnd some of them are the color that is more red than red.\n\nThe Autarch wears Prada? " }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes\n\n\n-----Inline Attachment Follows-----" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-10-01T13:00:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "<738421.52845.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "David Stockhoff- And some of them are the color that is more red than red." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "For some reason this prompted a Google search and I mostly got references to this\npropaganda poster- http://file.vintageadbrowser.com/8lcpejdehzdu8d.jpg\n \nReads: The reddest, reddest, red sun in our heart, Chairman Mao, and us together (1968)\n \nApparently Red Sun was a popular nickname for Mao. I wonder how much of that symbolism\nwas intended by Wolfe for Urth.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA61022.2060504@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-10-01T16:45:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) note Re: Short Sun blog", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Very little, I'm sure. But it fits, doesn't it? Severian is the New \n(White) Sun, also called the Conciliator, the Black Sun. Why not a \nhidden meaning for the Red Sun?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 10/1/2010 9:00 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nDavid Stockhoff- And some of them are the color that is more red than red." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For some reason this prompted a Google search and I mostly got references to this\npropaganda poster- http://file.vintageadbrowser.com/8lcpejdehzdu8d.jpg\n\nReads: The reddest, reddest, red sun in our heart, Chairman Mao, and us together (1968)\n\nApparently Red Sun was a popular nickname for Mao. I wonder how much of that symbolism\nwas intended by Wolfe for Urth.\n \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" } ] } ] }