{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5749", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5749, "subject": "Spring Wind", "messages": 18, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-09-23T13:16:33+00:00", "last": "2010-09-30T17:23:02+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T13:16:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nAndrew Mason -\nTyphon: first, can someone point me to the evidence that he was not\nborn/raised on Urth? I'm not sure what the source for this is." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For me, it is based on the story of \"Spring Wind\". I was rather\nsurprised to discover that it was at all controversial that \"Spring\nWind\" referred to Typhon. But I suppose there is little about these\nstories that is not controversial. If it seems reasonable to you that\nSpring Wind = Typhon, then the obvious implication is that he is\nextra-terrestrial :" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I have a quite different reading of Spring Wind.\n\nSpring Wind = March, i.e. Mars, father of Romulus and Remus.\nEarly Summer = June, i.e. Juno, mother of Mars.\nBird of the Wood = Rhea Silvia, mother of Romulus and Remus. (This is\na Wolfean joke, of course; 'Rhea' in the original legend didn't mean a\nbird.)\n\nI think that one of the names in isolation could be read in any number\nof ways, but all three together - given the rest of the story - seem\nquite clear to me.\n\nI think that the tale can be wholly explained in terms of stories that\nexist now - Romulus and Remus and Mowgli being the main sources, with\nsecondary ones including Moses, the Pilgrim Fathers, and a story I'm\nsure I've heard, though I'm not sure where, about a virgin who became\na mother with the help of a flower. One needn't take the story to be\nabout an events in the future timeline of Urth, or identify the\ncharacters with people existing then.\n\nThe only thing that might count against this is that Spring Wind comes\nfrom 'a mountain beyind the shores of Urth', but that could just be a\nway that people from the future, who know about space travel, would\nexpress the thought that he was a god (just as Shere Khan becomes a\nsmilodon).\n\nThis does not stop the story having allegorical or typological\nsignificance for things that happen in the future of Urth. Indeed, it\nclearly has some application to Severian - his mother was a nun, he\nwas brought up by 'wolves' i.e. torturers, and he may have had a twin,\nthough probably a girl. But other details don't fit. Parts of it may\napply to Typhon as well - but it's hard to see how we could know which\nparts, so I don't think it can be used as _evidence_ for him." } ] }, { "message_id": "<76A1C042A37C4718894C9B112B690A5F@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-09-23T13:28:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----- Original Message ----- " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Andrew Mason\" \nI think that the tale can be wholly explained in terms of stories that\nexist now - Romulus and Remus and Mowgli being the main sources, with\nsecondary ones including Moses, the Pilgrim Fathers, and a story I'm\nsure I've heard, though I'm not sure where, about a virgin who became\na mother with the help of a flower." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The excellent story 'Messenger' in Issue 47 of the online Clarkesworld \nmagazine -\n http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/ (click on 'Back Issues'; you may have to \nsign up, but it's free and the stories are of high quality) - features a \ngirl who becomes pregnant with the help of a thistle. I've an idea I've \nheard of the concept elsewhere too.\n\nIncidentally, Issue 23 has an interview with Gene Wolfe, in case some of you \nhave not read it (I only came across it yesterday myself).\n\n- Gerry Quinn\n " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T14:01:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "<76A1C042A37C4718894C9B112B690A5F@jill>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Mason: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Spring Wind = March, i.e. Mars, father of Romulus and Remus.\nEarly Summer = June, i.e. Juno, mother of Mars." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that the tale can be wholly explained in terms of stories that\nexist now - Romulus and Remus and Mowgli being the main sources, with secondary ones \nincluding Moses, the Pilgrim Fathers, and a story I'm sure I've heard, though I'm not \nsure where, about a virgin who became a mother with the help of a flower." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nExcellent analysis Andrew! There are a number of mythological stories about virgins and\nplant impregnation (likely stories, indeed!). But perhaps the most relevant one \nconnects to your analysis, though does not involve a virgin.\n \nAccording to one Roman legend, Juno, being jealous of Jupiter's motherless birthing of \nMinerva, sought aid from Flora, goddess of flowers and fertility. Flora used foxglove in\na certain manner on Juno to produce her fatherless offspring, Mars.\n \nI'm less than confident that identifying such mythological origins makes the story \"wholly \nexplained\" though. In the other thread I mention the very similar- Tale of the Student and \nHis Son. We could say this story is wholly explained as a conflation of the stories of Theseus, \nJason, Perseus, Erebus/Nyx, Iroquois Corn Maiden, Monitor and Merrimac, etc. \n \nBut then Severian openly ties this story to Abaia. Simply by parallel, The Tale of the Boy \nCalled Frog might also refer to a \"real\" character in BotNS. In that light, Typhon/Spring Wind \nseems hard to casually dismiss, for me. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9B6D15.9080600@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T15:07:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nI have a quite different reading of Spring Wind.\nSpring Wind = March, i.e. Mars, father of Romulus and Remus.\nEarly Summer = June, i.e. Juno, mother of Mars.\nBird of the Wood = Rhea Silvia, mother of Romulus and Remus. (This is\na Wolfean joke, of course; 'Rhea' in the original legend didn't mean a\nbird.) I think that one of the names in isolation could be read in any number\nof ways, but all three together - given the rest of the story - seem\nquite clear to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew, I agree that there is intended conflation with the Romulus \nstory. I think you are right about Juno and Rhea, but --while I agree \nthat there is an intended to connection between Spring Wind and Mars-- \nthe connection between the terms March and Spring Wind is not nearly so \nsweet as the alias for Juno and Rhea. The name has been retrofitted, \npresumably for another purpose...just as Minotaur in Theseus's story has \nbeen morphed into Erebus in The Story of the Student and His Son.\n\nWhen I read all the names together, it tells me that Spring Wind is the \nodd man out. There are other features of the story of Romulus's birth \nthat don't quite fit either. One must ask...why not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think that the tale can be wholly explained in terms of stories that\nexist now - Romulus and Remus and Mowgli being the main sources, with\nsecondary ones including Moses, the Pilgrim Fathers, and a story I'm\nsure I've heard, though I'm not sure where, about a virgin who became\na mother with the help of a flower. One needn't take the story to be\nabout an events in the future timeline of Urth, or identify the\ncharacters with people existing then.\n\nThe only thing that might count against this is that Spring Wind comes\nfrom 'a mountain beyind the shores of Urth', but that could just be a\nway that people from the future, who know about space travel, would\nexpress the thought that he was a god (just as Shere Khan becomes a\nsmilodon)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Once again, Shere Khan to smilodon is a pretty tight fit. A god to \n/merely/ someone on another planet? Particularly in a science fiction \nstory? Not so tight.\n\nThe Story of Frog is in chapters 17-19.\nThat's a lot of space given to a lark. And as a pure free associating \nconfabulation of myth and literature, it's not an especially good lark.\n\nSpring Wind gets a mention again in chapter 22:\n\"For a time, the boy was silent. Then he said, \"Big Severian, where did \n[Hethor's slug monster] come\nfrom?\"\n\"Do you remember the story? From one of the mountaintops beyond the \nshores of\nUrth.\"\n\"Where Spring Wind lived?\"\n\"I don't think it was the same one.\"\n\nThis suggests to me that the Spring Wind story is talking about a real \nplanet.\n\nWe meet Typhon in chapter 25." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This does not stop the story having allegorical or typological\nsignificance for things that happen in the future of Urth. Indeed, it\nclearly has some application to Severian - his mother was a nun, he\nwas brought up by 'wolves' i.e. torturers, and he may have had a twin,\nthough probably a girl." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "One could argue that Severian was brought up by Shepherds, but point taken." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But other details don't fit. Parts of it may\napply to Typhon as well - but it's hard to see how we could know which\nparts, so I don't think it can be used as _evidence_ for him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think it is about Severian's life. But the story relates to him \nin ways I am not prepared to delineate. That principle strikes me as \nsomething we were expected to accept.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T19:46:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "<4C9B6D15.9080600@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew, I agree that there is intended conflation with the Romulus\nstory. I think you are right about Juno and Rhea, but --while I agree\nthat there is an intended to connection between Spring Wind and Mars--\nthe connection between the terms March and Spring Wind is not nearly so\nsweet as the alias for Juno and Rhea. The name has been retrofitted,\npresumably for another purpose...just as Minotaur in Theseus's story has\nbeen morphed into Erebus in The Story of the Student and His Son.\n\nWhen I read all the names together, it tells me that Spring Wind is the\nodd man out. There are other features of the story of Romulus's birth\nthat don't quite fit either. One must ask...why not?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think March is quite strongly associated with winds ('March winds,\nApril showers..'). Given the need to find a name for Mars which isn't\n_too_ obvious, and fits in with 'Early Summer' and 'Bird of the Wood',\nit doesn't seem too suprising to me." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Once again, Shere Khan to smilodon is a pretty tight fit. A god to\n/merely/ someone on another planet? Particularly in a science fiction\nstory? Not so tight." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not merely someone on another planet, but the son of the ruler of that\nplanet. And in any case, I don't think the word 'planet' is used; it's\na mountain beyond the shores of Urth, which to me conveys a sense of\nmystery. During the first empire, when people were jumping between the\nstars all the time, perhaps another planet wouldn't convey this sense\n(though at that time, if we can trust Cyriaca, they weren't interested\nin mythology anyway). But at a later period, where contact with other\nplanets isn't a regular thing, why not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The Story of Frog is in chapters 17-19.\nThat's a lot of space given to a lark. And as a pure free associating\nconfabulation of myth and literature, it's not an especially good lark." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't see it as just a lark. I am happy with the idea that it has\napplication to the events in the books; what worries me is the idea of\nit as an encoded representation of those events, from which it's\npossible actually to reconstruct them. We can't know in advance which\nbits of it relate to events in the books and which don't - I can't\nbelieve (and I don't think you're saying) that _everything_ in it is\nan elaborate allegory of Typhon, so we have to guess at which bits\napply to him (or Severian, or whoever).\n\nI like the idea of these very ancient stories, going so far back that\ntheir origin is lost - where we, the readers, can see their origin,\nand also see how time has changed them. I think it would spoil them\nrather to link them too closely to actual events in future history.\n(In the same way I don't like the thought that Holy Katharine is an\nactual character in the history of the Commonwealth; I think she is\nthe Catherine of Christian legend, her story having been preserved and\nchanged.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA0B67C.6010609@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T15:21:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Me-\nwhile I agree\nthat there is an intended to connection between Spring Wind and Mars--\nthe connection between the terms March and Spring Wind is not nearly so\nsweet as the alias for Juno and Rhea. The name has been retrofitted,\npresumably for another purpose.[snip]\nWhen I read all the names together, it tells me that Spring Wind is the\nodd man out. There are other features of the story of Romulus's birth\nthat don't quite fit either. One must ask...why not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nI think March is quite strongly associated with winds ('March winds,\nApril showers..'). Given the need to find a name for Mars which isn't\n_too_ obvious, and fits in with 'Early Summer' and 'Bird of the Wood',\nit doesn't seem too suprising to me." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Let me try to deconstruct just how much worse \"Spring Wind=Mars\" is than \nthe other two. June is ACTUALLY named after Juno and, assuming you \ndidn't have a parallel month, it could be literally translated \"Early \nSummer\". Rhea Silvia could reasonably be literally translated Bird of \nthe Woods. The bird in question was ACTUALLY named for the goddess.\n\nMarch comes in the Spring. That's it. It's sometimes described as a \nwindy month? Okay. But the name \"Mars\" is not in any way associated with \nthe WINDS of March. The character's name was not Windy Time or Early \nSpring. It is Spring Wind. \"WIND\" is the relevant cognate. \"Spring\" is \nthe qualifier. In contrast to Juno and Rhea, Mars' alias sucks.\n\nFor Typhon, Wolfe could have logically gone with Great Wind (Chinese \n\"taifeng\"). After all, typhoons come in Autumn as well. That would have \nworked. But, as you pointed out Wolfe, wanted the name to be connected \nto Mars. Thus \"Spring Wind\". Very nicely done." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Once again, Shere Khan to smilodon is a pretty tight fit. A god to\n/merely/ someone on another planet? Particularly in a science fiction\nstory? Not so tight." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not merely someone on another planet, but the son of the ruler of that\nplanet. And in any case, I don't think the word 'planet' is used; it's\na mountain beyond the shores of Urth, which to me conveys a sense of\nmystery. During the first empire, when people were jumping between the\nstars all the time, perhaps another planet wouldn't convey this sense\n(though at that time, if we can trust Cyriaca, they weren't interested\nin mythology anyway). But at a later period, where contact with other\nplanets isn't a regular thing, why not?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " In mythology, \"mountain\" typically refers to the heavens overhead. \nSame with \"tree\" (which Wolfe refers to in Quetzal's story about Al Lah \nand Aman). Anyway, Severian seems to strongly imply to Little Severian \nthat the mountain is another planet (a great rock in the heavens), \nunless you think Hethor's slug came from another dimension." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The Story of Frog is in chapters 17-19.\nThat's a lot of space given to a lark. And as a pure free associating\nconfabulation of myth and literature, it's not an especially good lark." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't see it as just a lark. I am happy with the idea that it has\napplication to the events in the books; what worries me is the idea of\nit as an encoded representation of those events, from which it's\npossible actually to reconstruct them. We can't know in advance which\nbits of it relate to events in the books and which don't - I can't\nbelieve (and I don't think you're saying) that _everything_ in it is\nan elaborate allegory of Typhon, so we have to guess at which bits\napply to him (or Severian, or whoever)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No. This is an elaborate, rather occulted, _telling_ (not allegory) of \nthe deeds of the SON of Typhon. How do the sons of Typhon relate to \nSeverian? That's for the reader to figure out.\n\nI have no doubt in my mind that if Wolfe had written out this story in \nplain terms, we would see a cognate for every little thing in story. \nBecause, essentially, the story is \"true\" even if Wolfe didn't bother \ndetail every little bit. I think it is impossible to divine (from this \nparticular novel) things like Spring Wind's mother's real name or that \nof Bird of the Woods. Nor the name of the planet where Typhon was born. \nThat's not the point. Bird of the Woods is a straightforward translation \nof the name of the mother of Romulus and Remus and her role is no more \nsignificant than Rhea Silvia's.\n\nHOWEVER that doesn't mean there wasn't a such a person as Bird of the \nWoods whose circumstances were fundamentally as described. The tone of \nthe actual events would be different however, than the telling. I \nreiterate: this is NOT a retelling of the story of Romulus and Remus. \nNor is it Kipling's Jungle Book story. Romulus kills his brother. It was \nnot his followers who killed him. And Mowgli had no brother. The \nmythological elements that the reader can easily recognize merely \nconfirms that the mythology is \"true\" as well. We recently discussed the \nEmerald Tablet here.\n\n\"2. That which is below is like that which is above that which is above \nis like that which is below .\"\n\nThat concept is a subtle backdrop that reappears in Wolfe's fiction. Or \nas Green put it in \"There Are Doors\":" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I like the idea of these very ancient stories, going so far back that\ntheir origin is lost - where we, the readers, can see their origin,\nand also see how time has changed them. I think it would spoil them\nrather to link them too closely to actual events in future history.\n(In the same way I don't like the thought that Holy Katharine is an\nactual character in the history of the Commonwealth; I think she is\nthe Catherine of Christian legend, her story having been preserved and\nchanged.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, that's a philosophical issue. I can't convince you to change your \npreferences.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T14:21:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "<4CA0B67C.6010609@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "?In mythology, \"mountain\" typically refers to the heavens overhead.\nSame with \"tree\" (which Wolfe refers to in Quetzal's story about Al Lah\nand Aman)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That seems equally to fit my reading and yours - the heavens are where\nplanetary travellers come from, but also where gods live. I would take\nit that in the original version of the story the mountain was Olympus,\nwhich was both a specific mountain in northern Greece and a symbolic\nname for the heavens.\n\nAnyway, Severian seems to strongly imply to Little Severian" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "that the mountain is another planet (a great rock in the heavens),\nunless you think Hethor's slug came from another dimension." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Severian doesn't know anything about the origins of the story -\nof course he takes it to be about another planet, as that's an idea\nhe's familiar with. But I'm not sure even he takes it to be a\nhistorical account of something that involved an _actual_ other\nplanet. If he had, how would he know it wasn't the planet the slug\ncame from? I would guess he thinks they can't be the same planet\nbecause the slug's planet is real, while Spring Wind's is mythical." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "No. This is an elaborate, rather occulted, _telling_ (not allegory) of\nthe deeds of the SON of Typhon. How do the sons of Typhon relate to\nSeverian? That's for the reader to figure out." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Why is it wrong to call it an allegory? It is, I take it, a story in\nwhich one thing stands for another thing - unless Typhon's son was\nliterally brought up by wolves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "HOWEVER that doesn't mean there wasn't a such a person as Bird of the\nWoods whose circumstances were fundamentally as described. The tone of\nthe actual events would be different however, than the telling. I\nreiterate: this is NOT a retelling of the story of Romulus and Remus.\nNor is it Kipling's Jungle Book story. Romulus kills his brother. It was\nnot his followers who killed him. And Mowgli had no brother. The\nmythological elements that the reader can easily recognize merely\nconfirms that the mythology is \"true\" as well. We recently discussed the\nEmerald Tablet here.\n\n\"2. That which is below is like that which is above that which is above\nis like that which is below .\"\n\nThat concept is a subtle backdrop that reappears in Wolfe's fiction. Or\nas Green put it in \"There Are Doors\":" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Something seems to be missing here.\n\nWhat do you think are the implications of this for other stories in\n_Wonders of Urth and Sky_? Are they all accurate accounts of events in\nthe 'future' timeline of Urth? And if so, are they also retellings of\nancient myths (I mean, did their composers have ancient myths in mind\nwhen they wrote them), or are their similarities to ancient myths (and\nsome real events) purely the result of some kind of correspondence\nworking across the ages (as Dr Talos suggests for _Frankenstein_)?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA20CEE.5040707@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T15:42:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote (28-09-2010 15:21):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Why is it wrong to call it an allegory? It is, I take it, a story in\nwhich one thing stands for another thing (...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'Allegory' is not the same as 'metaphor'." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA22EDF.4040508@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T18:07:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Me-\nNo. This is an elaborate, rather occulted, _telling_ (not allegory) of\nthe deeds of the SON of Typhon. How do the sons of Typhon relate to\nSeverian? That's for the reader to figure out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nWhy is it wrong to call it an allegory? It is, I take it, a story in\nwhich one thing stands for another thing - unless Typhon's son was\nliterally brought up by wolves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just because the story says Frog was raised by \"wolves\" and Fish was \nraised by \"shepherds\" does not mean that those terms are not accurate \neven if --if you saw them-- you would not recognize the referred \norganizations as wolves or shepherds.\n\nGermans don't call themselves \"Germans\". But a history that used the \nterms \"German\" and \"Germany\" rather than Deutsch and Deutschland, would \nnot be an allegory. Nor would an account that replaced \"The Hun\" for the \nNazi forces in WWII. What about a history of WWII in the distant future \nthat referred to the The Tribes or The Brothers (a similar concept to \nthe original meaning of \"german\") — That is not an allegory. \"Juno\" does \nnot mean \"Early Summer\", but that is a reasonable translation of her name.\n\nThink of the stories as being translated into new languages three or \nfour times.\n\nAdditionally, remember that Severian refers to Typhon's era and earlier \nas The Age of Myth." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Me-\nHOWEVER that doesn't mean there wasn't a such a person as Bird of the\nWoods whose circumstances were fundamentally as described. The tone of\nthe actual events would be different however, than the telling. I\nreiterate: this is NOT a retelling of the story of Romulus and Remus.\nNor is it Kipling's Jungle Book story. Romulus kills his brother. It was\nnot his followers who killed him. And Mowgli had no brother. The\nmythological elements that the reader can easily recognize merely\nconfirms that the mythology is \"true\" as well. We recently discussed the\nEmerald Tablet here.\n\n\"2. That which is below is like that which is above that which is above\nis like that which is below .\"\n\nThat concept is a subtle backdrop that reappears in Wolfe's fiction. Or\nas Green put it in \"There Are Doors\":" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nSomething seems to be missing here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was going to quote something from There Are Doors, forgot to look up \nthe quote. Looking at it now, it stands fine on its own or not at all." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nWhat do you think are the implications of this for other stories in\n_Wonders of Urth and Sky_? Are they all accurate accounts of events in\nthe 'future' timeline of Urth? And if so, are they also retellings of\nancient myths (I mean, did their composers have ancient myths in mind\nwhen they wrote them), or are their similarities to ancient myths (and\nsome real events) purely the result of some kind of correspondence\nworking across the ages (as Dr Talos suggests for _Frankenstein_)?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, I think all of that is the essential concept working here.\n\nKing Arthur and Alexander the Great were historical figures that became \nmyth. Conversely, CS Lewis --as a new Christian answering critics that \nChristianity was a rehash of earlier myths about dying/resurrected \ngods-- said \"No. He is the myths made real.\"\nAlso, note that were it not for the names Juno, Rhea Silvia, Mowgli, \netc. we would not readily associate this story with Romulus or Kipling. \nTyphon's mother was probably not named Juno. His mistress was probably \nnot named Rhea Silvia. Those names were lost and filled in with their \nmythical cognates like the dinosaur DNA in \"Jurassic Park\" was \nsupplemented with frog DNA because 95% of Chordata DNA is identical anyway.\n\nThese are real stories. There are parallels from myth and literature \nthat have imprinted themselves directly on the retelling of these \nstories. On the other hand, the stories are --in ways-- the fulfillment \nof those ancient stories. \"Peace\", \"There Are Doors\", the Latro stories, \n\"Castleview, \"The Wizard Knight\" have all addressed this concept \ndirectly in their own ways.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-29T13:26:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "<4CA22EDF.4040508@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nMe-\nNo. This is an elaborate, rather occulted, _telling_ (not allegory) of\nthe deeds of the SON of Typhon. How do the sons of Typhon relate to\nSeverian? That's for the reader to figure out." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nWhy is it wrong to call it an allegory? It is, I take it, a story in\nwhich one thing stands for another thing - unless Typhon's son was\nliterally brought up by wolves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just because the story says Frog was raised by \"wolves\" and Fish was\nraised by \"shepherds\" does not mean that those terms are not accurate\neven if --if you saw them-- you would not recognize the referred\norganizations as wolves or shepherds." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "OK, I'm beginning to see how your theory fits together now. (Something\nyou said earlier suggests you see shepherds as torturers - is that\nright?) There is some definite evidence that 'wolves' are not human,\nthough - the Naked One says 'I have never had a son of Meschia to\nteach' - though there are certainly ways of accommodating that without\nmaking them literal wolves." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "King Arthur and Alexander the Great were historical figures that became\nmyth. Conversely, CS Lewis --as a new Christian answering critics that\nChristianity was a rehash of earlier myths about dying/resurrected\ngods-- said \"No. He is the myths made real.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd totally agree that 'myths made real' is a theme at work in BOTNS.\nBut that still leaves open various ways of reading the stories in\n_Wonders of Urth and Sky_' they can either be accounts of the events\nwhich made the myths real, or they can be myths themselves, waiting to\nbe made real. (And there is the complicating factor that they reflect\nnot only ancient myths but also real events from the past.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Also, note that were it not for the names Juno, Rhea Silvia, Mowgli,\netc. we would not readily associate this story with Romulus or Kipling." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Do you think so?. Lots of people seem to have got the Romulus\nreference without decoding the names; and for Mowgli, while 'Frog' is\ncertainly a giveaway, I think there's enough other stuff - a\nwoodcutter, a tiger, the two outsiders who persuade the wolves to take\nhim - to make the link fairly clear. (Likewise people have found the\nsources for 'The Student and his Son' without many clues in the names.\nJonas helps there, but clearly _he_ was able to get it from the story\nalone.)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-29T15:03:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I am very happy that James is pursuing this line of thought. It was always a pleasure to\nidentify Earth's myths within Urth's legends. It only enriches things to find that Urth's \nlegends might also refer to its \"flesh and blood\" extant characters.\n \nAs previously mentioned, I think Severian's association of the Naviscaput with Abaia opens\nthe door to this theme. If James' ideas about Spring Wind and Typhon can be accepted, \nmore doors open. I must wonder about every story and legend in BotNS, though I am probably\nnot literate enough to do the analysis myself.\n \nI think Town That Forgot Fauna is a good candidate with its seemingly immortal old woman, \nthe nine guys, even a mention of black beans. Could the proud rooster and his harem of hens\nand his divinely superior opponent the angel/eagle represent Typhon and his conflict with \nTzadkiel? I find the shapeshifting elements of this and the Armiger's Daughter story to be\nintriguing. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA35F28.5060604@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-29T15:45:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Me-\nJust because the story says Frog was raised by \"wolves\" and Fish was\nraised by \"shepherds\" does not mean that those terms are not accurate\neven if --if you saw them-- you would not recognize the referred\norganizations as wolves or shepherds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nOK, I'm beginning to see how your theory fits together now. (Something\nyou said earlier suggests you see shepherds as torturers - is that\nright?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't know. Maybe. I was only noting how tricking divining these \nstories is. In the Q&A, Wolfe implied that The Chapter in \"Long Sun\" is \nthe Torturer's Guild. The wolves and the shepherds could be different \nbranches from the same source. I don't really know _how_ these stories \nrelate to the Urth Severian discovers in his travels. Frog and Fish died \na long time before Sev was born. Is Typhon the hero in \"The Tale of the \nStudent and His Son\"? I can't say at this point. It could be. Or it \ncould be Frog (Typhon does eventually die in a fall, after all)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nThere is some definite evidence that 'wolves' are not human,\nthough - the Naked One says 'I have never had a son of Meschia to\nteach' - though there are certainly ways of accommodating that without\nmaking them literal wolves." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's an interesting point. Yeah, the wolves might not be human. Or \neven the shepherds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Me-\nKing Arthur and Alexander the Great were historical figures that became\nmyth. Conversely, CS Lewis --as a new Christian answering critics that\nChristianity was a rehash of earlier myths about dying/resurrected\ngods-- said \"No. He is the myths made real.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nI'd totally agree that 'myths made real' is a theme at work in BOTNS.\nBut that still leaves open various ways of reading the stories in\n_Wonders of Urth and Sky_' they can either be accounts of the events\nwhich made the myths real, or they can be myths themselves, waiting to\nbe made real." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Okay. But that still suggests a task for the reader to connect the \nstories to \"actual\" events in the novel." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nAnd there is the complicating factor that they reflect\nnot only ancient myths but also real events from the past.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, but it is not debilitating, I think. I think we can safely say that \nthe parts that are in the original myths/stories are absolutely \nhistorical. I want to return to my Jurassic Park analogy. In that novel, \nthe missing parts of dinosaur is supplemented with frog DNA because 95% \nof chordate DNA is identical. This can lead to problems (as it did), but \nthe principle was sound. The same with the stories in _Urth & Sky_. The \nhistorical events can be supplemented with myth without (mostly) \nundermining their veracity. Let me go at it another way:\n\nRobert Graves constructed elaborate theories for how the Greek myths \nrepresented historical events. Well, imagine a historian translating the \nstory of \"Frog\". In the process he remembers a stories about Romulus and \nThe Jungle Books and says \"Hmmm...clearly these stories are the same \nevent.\" So he unwittingly does what Graves did -- reads myth and \nliterature as an historical event. At the same time, he does what people \ndo with the stories of King Arthur and Jesus. \"Hey! There are \nsimilarities in these stories to ancient myths. Obviously King Arthur \nand Jesus are _merely_ reimagined versions of those myths.\"\n\nBut if the stories are _true_. That is, if our imagined historian did \nnot _change_ the details that he _actually had_ of the histories to make \nthem align with the myths, then we still have what the historian \noriginally had as well.\n\nYeah, \"The Tale of the Student and His Son\" has parallels to the story \nof Theseus. But --really-- only in the broadest strokes. Did the actual \n\"Son\" carry an alfange? Was his battle with the ogre a naval battle? Was \nthere a labyrinthine, Amazonian hide-out? Did the \"Son\" use a signal of \nsails to announce his success or failure? It's probably okay to make an \nassumption either way. I don't think those details are vital to the story.\n\nBut the ogre is Erebus or Abaia (and to my reading there appears to be \nsome confabulation between the two -- yeah, they could be twins). \nPrincess Noctua is not naturally born, just as the hero was not. There \nis evidence that tributes of youths were/are common practice among the \ntyrants of Urth...certainly Typhon demanded them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Me-\nAlso, note that were it not for the names Juno, Rhea Silvia, Mowgli,\netc. we would not readily associate this story with Romulus or Kipling." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nDo you think so?. Lots of people seem to have got the Romulus\nreference without decoding the names; and for Mowgli, while 'Frog' is\ncertainly a giveaway, I think there's enough other stuff - a\nwoodcutter, a tiger, the two outsiders who persuade the wolves to take\nhim - to make the link fairly clear. (Likewise people have found the\nsources for 'The Student and his Son' without many clues in the names.\nJonas helps there, but clearly _he_ was able to get it from the story\nalone.)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, Jonas might know more details about the original story than we do. \nAlso, Wolfe's characters are often able to make unlikely deductive \nleaps. But while people readily identify the ways that The Son parallels \nTheseus, most IMO do not appreciate how much of the story is not drawn \nfrom the myth.\n\nAs for people getting the Romulus reference, this is probably due to \nseveral things. 1) This list. Probably not as many people get it on \ntheir own as you think. 2) Lexicon Urthus. Same deal. 3) People know \nWolfe. They recognize that he likes to interweave mythology into his \nstories, and they know he likes to interweave myths and stories about \nwolves, so they go looking for them.\n\nHowever, (this is important I think) the entire novels --the lives of \nSeverian, Silk, Horn, Green, Number Five-- are mapped over mythology and \nliterature in the same way these little stories are. When people post on \nthe list some close reference or another, others shrug and say \"That's \ninteresting.\" But they don't assume Green is _really_ Attis or Horn is \n_really_ John Carter. But (to my surprise) they often think something \nlike that about the _Urth & Sky_ stories.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA395C9.70604@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-29T19:38:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "<4CA35F28.5060604@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn-\nI think we can safely say that the parts that are in the original \nmyths/stories are absolutely historical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Should be...\n\"I think we can safely say that the parts that are NOT in the original \nmyths/stories are absolutely historical.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<800755.51634.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-29T20:11:08+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "<4CA395C9.70604@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Good!?I was going to ask ...\nI like the comparison of Horn to John Carter of Mars. But I only read the first book long ago and have forgotten it. Is there any direction the connection gives us?\nCertainly Wolfe must have been in a Burroughs kind of mood for a while there, given all the six-legged creatures. Speaking of which, there is a movie version of?John Carter of Mars due out in 2012.\nAnd going on another tangent, I always think of the inhumi as a metaphor for what happens when a writer falls under the influence of another writer: if you read a lot of Melville while you are writing, don't be surprised if it ends up retaining some of the character of Melville.\nAnd Wolfe himself enjoys imitation; he did a great Dunsany pastiche once. He is very conscious, if not self-conscious, of the process of literary digestion and re-creation. It's more than just reference---it's re-working.\n\n--- On Wed, 9/29/10, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: James Wynn \nSubject: Re: (urth) Spring Wind\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Wednesday, September 29, 2010, 3:38 PM\nJames Wynn-\nI think we can safely say that the parts that are in the original myths/stories are absolutely historical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Should be...\n\"I think we can safely say that the parts that are NOT in the original myths/stories are absolutely historical.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA3A4DB.2000903@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-29T20:43:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "<800755.51634.qm@web84107.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "DAVID STOCKHOFF-\n\nI like the comparison of Horn to John Carter of Mars. But I only read \nthe first book long ago and have forgotten it. Is there any direction \nthe connection gives us? Certainly Wolfe must have been in a \nBurroughs kind of mood for a while there, given all the six-legged \ncreatures. Speaking of which, there is a movie version of John Carter \nof Mars due out in 2012. And going on another tangent, I always think \nof the inhumi as a metaphor for what happens when a writer falls under \nthe influence of another writer: if you read a lot of Melville while \nyou are writing, don't be surprised if it ends up retaining some of \nthe character of Melville. And Wolfe himself enjoys imitation; he did \na great Dunsany pastiche once. He is very conscious, if not \nself-conscious, of the process of literary digestion and re-creation. \nIt's more than just reference---it's re-working." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps Wolfe was intrigued the parallels between the Whorl and \nPellucidar and decided to double-down on Burroughs.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-30T14:36:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "<4CA3A4DB.2000903@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nAndrew Mason-\nI'd totally agree that 'myths made real' is a theme at work in BOTNS.\nBut that still leaves open various ways of reading the stories in\n_Wonders of Urth and Sky_' they can either be accounts of the events\nwhich made the myths real, or they can be myths themselves, waiting to\nbe made real." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Okay. But that still suggests a task for the reader to connect the\nstories to \"actual\" events in the novel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, and I do think there are correspondences between 'Frog' and the\nlife of Severian. (I do find it harder to make out with 'The Student\nand his Son') But on my reading the correspondences needn't be\nperfect, any more than the correspondences between the life of Jesus\nand the myths he is thought to fulfil are perfect. Indeed, the idea of\na story that imperfectly represents the reality it relates to seems to\nrun through the whole work - Jonas and Cyriaca tell stories about the\npast of Urth which are illuminating, but get some details wrong; Dr\nTalos's play corresponds, sometimes in amazing detail, to the actual\nevents surrounding the coming of the New Sun, but also diverges from\nthem in some ways; _Frankenstein_ is an imperfect account of the story\nof Baldanders." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason-\nAnd there is the complicating factor that they reflect\nnot only ancient myths but also real events from the past.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes, but it is not debilitating, I think. I think we can safely say that\nthe parts that are in the original myths/stories are absolutely\nhistorical." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Possible crossed wires here - when I said 'real events' I didn't mean\nevents in the time of Typhon or whatever, but things like the Pilgrim\nFathers, the Monitor and the Merrimack (I think also Pompey and the\nHoly of Holies). So if the stories are myths made real, they seem also\nto be real events made real (again), which is a bit odd. (But perhaps\nnot so odd. It is thought to be ther relation of some Old Testament\nstories to Jesus, after all.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "However, (this is important I think) the entire novels --the lives of\nSeverian, Silk, Horn, Green, Number Five-- are mapped over mythology and\nliterature in the same way these little stories are. When people post on\nthe list some close reference or another, others shrug and say \"That's\ninteresting.\" But they don't assume Green is _really_ Attis or Horn is\n_really_ John Carter. But (to my surprise) they often think something\nlike that about the _Urth & Sky_ stories." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, I think there are reasons for that. First, we are told the\nstories come down from the remote past, and while that could just mean\nTyphon's time, there's no reason why it should be confined to that.\nThen, Jonas recognises the story of Theseus and is able, in the light\nof that, to explain a puzzle in the story as told. And in general, the\nway the stories hang together is rather odd. Consider, say, the way it\nis revealed in the last line of 'Frog' that the Naked One is also\ncalled Squanto; it leaves you saying 'Where did that come from?' This\nis explicable if it's a stitching-together of myths; less so if it's\neither an account of real events or a new work of fiction." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA4C667.2010906@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-30T17:18:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Consider, say, the way it\nis revealed in the last line of 'Frog' that the Naked One is also\ncalled Squanto; it leaves you saying 'Where did that come from?'" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Well, just a joke from Wolfe, IMO.\n\nEssentially, (so I believe) it is the same as renaming Typhon \n\"Mars-Typhon\", that is, \"Spring Wind\", because a scribe thought Mars \nfrom the Romulus story was the same person as Frog's father *++*\nor applying \"Juno\" and later \"June\" to his mother for the same reason. \nIt shows that the scribes understanding is imperfect and the scribe \nreally did not know (or thought he did not know) the name of The Naked \nOne. But it does not pervert the authenticity of the story.\n\n*++* This was a common method of identifying gods from different \npeoples and cults who were recognized as the same entity because they \npatronized similar domains, such as as fertility, poetry, healing, etc. \nOften they described how the other version was different/notable as in \nthe Chthonic Zeus, or the Hanging Artimis. But, frequently, they would \njust append the two names together as in Cerigo-Aphrodite.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-30T17:23:02+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Spring Wind", "in_reply_to": "<4CA4C667.2010906@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 10:18 AM, James Wynn wrote:\n*++* ?This was a common method of identifying gods from different peoples\nand cults who were recognized as the same entity because they patronized\nsimilar domains, such as as fertility, poetry, healing, etc. Often they\ndescribed how the other version was different/notable as in the Chthonic\nZeus, or the Hanging Artimis. But, frequently, they would just append the\ntwo names together as in Cerigo-Aphrodite." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Or Passilk?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] } ] }