Subject: (urth) Spring Wind

From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:16:33 +0000

James Wynn wrote:

>> Andrew Mason -
>> Typhon: first, can someone point me to the evidence that he was not
>> born/raised on Urth? I'm not sure what the source for this is.
>
> For me, it is based on the story of "Spring Wind". I was rather
> surprised to discover that it was at all controversial that "Spring
> Wind" referred to Typhon. But I suppose there is little about these
> stories that is not controversial. If it seems reasonable to you that
> Spring Wind = Typhon, then the obvious implication is that he is
> extra-terrestrial :

I have a quite different reading of Spring Wind.

Spring Wind = March, i.e. Mars, father of Romulus and Remus.
Early Summer = June, i.e. Juno, mother of Mars.
Bird of the Wood = Rhea Silvia, mother of Romulus and Remus. (This is
a Wolfean joke, of course; 'Rhea' in the original legend didn't mean a
bird.)

I think that one of the names in isolation could be read in any number
of ways, but all three together - given the rest of the story - seem
quite clear to me.

I think that the tale can be wholly explained in terms of stories that
exist now - Romulus and Remus and Mowgli being the main sources, with
secondary ones including Moses, the Pilgrim Fathers, and a story I'm
sure I've heard, though I'm not sure where, about a virgin who became
a mother with the help of a flower. One needn't take the story to be
about an events in the future timeline of Urth, or identify the
characters with people existing then.

The only thing that might count against this is that Spring Wind comes
from 'a mountain beyind the shores of Urth', but that could just be a
way that people from the future, who know about space travel, would
express the thought that he was a god (just as Shere Khan becomes a
smilodon).

This does not stop the story having allegorical or typological
significance for things that happen in the future of Urth. Indeed, it
clearly has some application to Severian - his mother was a nun, he
was brought up by 'wolves' i.e. torturers, and he may have had a twin,
though probably a girl. But other details don't fit. Parts of it may
apply to Typhon as well - but it's hard to see how we could know which
parts, so I don't think it can be used as _evidence_ for him.

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 13:28:29 +0000

----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Andrew Mason" <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>

> a mother with the help of a flower.

The excellent story 'Messenger' in Issue 47 of the online Clarkesworld 
magazine -
 http://clarkesworldmagazine.com/ (click on 'Back Issues'; you may have to 
sign up, but it's free and the stories are of high quality) - features a 
girl who becomes pregnant with the help of a thistle.  I've an idea I've 
heard of the concept elsewhere too.

Incidentally, Issue 23 has an interview with Gene Wolfe, in case some of you 
have not read it (I only came across it yesterday myself).

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 14:01:34 +0000

>exist now - Romulus and Remus and Mowgli being the main sources, with secondary ones 
>including Moses, the Pilgrim Fathers, and a story I'm sure I've heard, though I'm not 
>sure where, about a virgin who became a mother with the help of a flower.
 
Excellent analysis Andrew! There are a number of mythological stories about virgins and
plant impregnation (likely stories, indeed!). But perhaps the most relevant one 
connects to your analysis, though does not involve a virgin.
 
According to one Roman legend, Juno, being jealous of Jupiter's motherless birthing of 
Minerva, sought aid from Flora, goddess of flowers and fertility. Flora used foxglove in
a certain manner on Juno to produce her fatherless offspring, Mars.
 
I'm less than confident that identifying such mythological origins makes the story "wholly 
explained" though. In the other thread I mention the very similar- Tale of the Student and 
His Son. We could say this story is wholly explained as a conflation of the stories of Theseus, 
Jason, Perseus, Erebus/Nyx, Iroquois Corn Maiden, Monitor and Merrimac, etc. 
 
But then Severian openly ties this story to Abaia. Simply by parallel, The Tale of the Boy 
Called Frog might also refer to a "real" character in BotNS. In that light, Typhon/Spring Wind 
seems hard to casually dismiss, for me.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 15:07:01 +0000

> Andrew Mason-
> bird.) I think that one of the names in isolation could be read in any number

Andrew, I agree that there is intended conflation with the Romulus 
story. I think you are right about Juno and Rhea, but --while I agree 
that there is an intended to connection between Spring Wind and Mars-- 
the connection between the terms March and Spring Wind is not nearly so 
sweet as the alias for Juno and Rhea. The name has been retrofitted, 
presumably for another purpose...just as Minotaur in Theseus's story has 
been morphed into Erebus in The Story of the Student and His Son.

When I read all the names together, it tells me that Spring Wind is the 
odd man out. There are other features of the story of Romulus's birth 
that don't quite fit either. One must ask...why not?

> express the thought that he was a god (just as Shere Khan becomes a

Once again, Shere Khan to smilodon is a pretty tight fit. A god to 
/merely/ someone on another planet? Particularly in a science fiction 
story? Not so tight.

The Story of Frog is in chapters 17-19.
That's a lot of space given to a lark. And as a pure free associating 
confabulation of myth and literature, it's not an especially good lark.

Spring Wind gets a mention again in chapter 22:
"For a time, the boy was silent. Then he said, "Big Severian, where did 
[Hethor's slug monster] come
from?"
"Do you remember the story? From one of the mountaintops beyond the 
shores of
Urth."
"Where Spring Wind lived?"
"I don't think it was the same one."

This suggests to me that the Spring Wind story is talking about a real 
planet.

We meet Typhon in chapter 25.

> though probably a girl.

One could argue that Severian was brought up by Shepherds, but point taken.

> But other details don't fit. Parts of it may

I don't think it is about Severian's life. But the story relates to him 
in ways I am not prepared to delineate. That principle strikes me as 
something we were expected to accept.

u+16b9

---

From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Date: Thu, 23 Sep 2010 19:46:07 +0000

> that don't quite fit either. One must ask...why not?

I think March is quite strongly associated with winds ('March winds,
April showers..'). Given the need to find a name for Mars which isn't
_too_ obvious, and fits in with 'Early Summer' and 'Bird of the Wood',
it doesn't seem too suprising to me.

> /merely/ someone on another planet? Particularly in a science fiction

Not merely someone on another planet, but the son of the ruler of that
planet. And in any case, I don't think the word 'planet' is used; it's
a mountain beyond the shores of Urth, which to me conveys a sense of
mystery. During the first empire, when people were jumping between the
stars all the time, perhaps another planet wouldn't convey this sense
(though at that time, if we can trust Cyriaca, they weren't interested
in mythology anyway). But at a later period, where contact with other
planets isn't a regular thing, why not?

> confabulation of myth and literature, it's not an especially good lark.

I don't see it as just a lark. I am happy with the idea that it has
application to the events in the books; what worries me is the idea of
it as an encoded representation of those events, from which it's
possible actually to reconstruct them. We can't know in advance which
bits of it relate to events in the books and which don't - I can't
believe (and I don't think you're saying) that _everything_ in it is
an elaborate allegory of Typhon, so we have to guess at which bits
apply to him (or Severian, or whoever).

I like the idea of these very ancient stories, going so far back that
their origin is lost - where we, the readers, can see their origin,
and also see how time has changed them. I think it would spoil them
rather to link them too closely to actual events in future history.
(In the same way I don't like the thought that Holy Katharine is an
actual character in the history of the Commonwealth; I think she is
the Catherine of Christian legend, her story having been preserved and
changed.)

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 15:21:32 +0000

>> Me-
>> while I agree
>> presumably for another purpose.[snip]

Let me try to deconstruct just how much worse "Spring Wind=Mars" is than 
the other two. June is ACTUALLY named after Juno and, assuming you 
didn't have a parallel month, it could be literally translated "Early 
Summer". Rhea Silvia could reasonably be literally translated Bird of 
the Woods. The bird in question was ACTUALLY named for the goddess.

March comes in the Spring. That's it. It's sometimes described as a 
windy month? Okay. But the name "Mars" is not in any way associated with 
the WINDS of March. The character's name was not Windy Time or Early 
Spring. It is Spring Wind. "WIND" is the relevant cognate. "Spring" is 
the qualifier. In contrast to Juno and Rhea, Mars' alias sucks.

For Typhon, Wolfe could have logically gone with Great Wind (Chinese 
"taifeng"). After all, typhoons come in Autumn as well. That would have 
worked. But, as you pointed out Wolfe, wanted the name to be connected 
to Mars. Thus "Spring Wind". Very nicely done.

> planets isn't a regular thing, why not?

  In mythology, "mountain" typically refers to the heavens overhead. 
Same with "tree" (which Wolfe refers to in Quetzal's story about Al Lah 
and Aman). Anyway, Severian seems to strongly imply to Little Severian 
that the mountain is another planet (a great rock in the heavens), 
unless you think Hethor's slug came from another dimension.

> apply to him (or Severian, or whoever).

No. This is an elaborate, rather occulted, _telling_ (not allegory) of 
the deeds of the SON of Typhon. How do the sons of Typhon relate to 
Severian? That's for the reader to figure out.

I have no doubt in my mind that if Wolfe had written out  this story in 
plain terms, we would see a cognate for every little thing in story. 
Because, essentially, the story is "true" even if Wolfe didn't bother 
detail every little bit. I think it is impossible to divine (from this 
particular novel) things like Spring Wind's mother's real name or that 
of Bird of the Woods. Nor the name of the planet where Typhon was born. 
That's not the point. Bird of the Woods is a straightforward translation 
of the name of the mother of Romulus and Remus and her role is no more 
significant than Rhea Silvia's.

HOWEVER that doesn't mean there wasn't a such a person as Bird of the 
Woods whose circumstances were fundamentally as described. The tone of 
the actual events would be different however, than the telling. I 
reiterate: this is NOT a retelling of the story of Romulus and Remus. 
Nor is it Kipling's Jungle Book story. Romulus kills his brother. It was 
not his followers who killed him. And Mowgli had no brother. The 
mythological elements that the reader can easily recognize merely 
confirms that the mythology is "true" as well. We recently discussed the 
Emerald Tablet here.

"2. That which is below is like that which is above that which is above 
is like that which is below ."

That concept is a subtle backdrop that reappears in Wolfe's fiction. Or 

> the Catherine of Christian legend, her story having been preserved and

Well, that's a philosophical issue. I can't convince you to change your 
preferences.

u+16b9
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From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 14:21:44 +0000

> ?In mythology, "mountain" typically refers to the heavens overhead.
> and Aman).

That seems equally to fit my reading and yours - the heavens are where
planetary travellers come from, but also where gods live. I would take
it that in the original version of the story the mountain was Olympus,
which was both a specific mountain in northern Greece and a symbolic
name for the heavens.

Anyway, Severian seems to strongly imply to Little Severian
> unless you think Hethor's slug came from another dimension.

Well, Severian doesn't know anything about the origins of the story -
of course he takes it to be about another planet, as that's an idea
he's familiar with. But I'm not sure even he takes it to be a
historical account of something that involved an _actual_ other
planet. If he had, how would he know it wasn't the planet the slug
came from? I would guess he thinks they can't be the same planet
because the slug's planet is real, while Spring Wind's is mythical.

> Severian? That's for the reader to figure out.

Why is it wrong to call it an allegory? It is, I take it, a story in
which one thing stands for another thing - unless Typhon's son was
literally brought up by wolves.

> as Green put it in "There Are Doors":

Something seems to be missing here.

What do you think are the implications of this for other stories in
_Wonders of Urth and Sky_? Are they all accurate accounts of events in
the 'future' timeline of Urth? And if so, are they also retellings of
ancient myths (I mean, did their composers have ancient myths in mind
when they wrote them), or are their similarities to ancient myths (and
some real events) purely the result of some kind of correspondence
working across the ages (as Dr Talos suggests for _Frankenstein_)?

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 15:42:38 +0000

Andrew Mason wrote (28-09-2010 15:21):

> which one thing stands for another thing (...)

'Allegory' is not the same as 'metaphor'.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 18:07:27 +0000

> literally brought up by wolves.

Just because the story says Frog was raised by "wolves" and Fish was 
raised by "shepherds" does not mean that those terms are not accurate 
even if --if you saw them-- you would not recognize the referred 
organizations as wolves or shepherds.

Germans don't call themselves "Germans". But a history that used the 
terms "German" and "Germany" rather than Deutsch and Deutschland, would 
not be an allegory. Nor would an account that replaced "The Hun" for the 
Nazi forces in WWII. What about a history of WWII in the distant future 
that referred to the The Tribes or The Brothers (a similar concept to 
the original meaning of "german") — That is not an allegory. "Juno" does 
not mean "Early Summer", but that is a reasonable translation of her name.

Think of the stories as being translated into new languages three or 
four times.

Additionally, remember that Severian refers to Typhon's era and earlier 
as The Age of Myth.

> Something seems to be missing here.

I was going to quote something from There Are Doors, forgot to look up 
the quote. Looking at it now, it stands fine  on its own or not at all.

> working across the ages (as Dr Talos suggests for _Frankenstein_)?

Yes, I think all of that is the essential concept working here.

King Arthur and Alexander the Great were historical figures that became 
myth. Conversely, CS Lewis --as a new Christian answering critics that 
Christianity was a rehash of earlier myths about dying/resurrected 
gods-- said "No. He is the myths made real."
Also, note that were it not for the names Juno, Rhea Silvia, Mowgli, 
etc. we would not readily associate this story with Romulus or Kipling. 
Typhon's mother was probably not named Juno. His mistress was probably 
not named Rhea Silvia. Those names were lost and filled in with their 
mythical cognates like the dinosaur DNA in "Jurassic Park" was 
supplemented with frog DNA because 95% of Chordata DNA is identical anyway.

These are real stories. There are parallels from myth and literature 
that have imprinted themselves directly on the retelling of these 
stories. On the other hand, the stories are --in ways-- the fulfillment 
of those ancient stories. "Peace", "There Are Doors", the Latro stories, 
"Castleview, "The Wizard Knight" have all addressed this concept 
directly in their own ways.

u+16b9

---

From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 13:26:11 +0000

> organizations as wolves or shepherds.

OK, I'm beginning to see how your theory fits together now. (Something
you said earlier suggests you see shepherds as torturers - is that
right?)  There is some definite evidence that 'wolves' are not human,
though - the Naked One says 'I have never had a son of Meschia to
teach' - though there are certainly ways of accommodating that without
making them literal wolves.

> gods-- said "No. He is the myths made real."

I'd totally agree that 'myths made real' is a theme at work in BOTNS.
But that still leaves open various ways of reading the stories in
_Wonders of Urth and Sky_' they can either be accounts of the events
which made the myths real, or they can be myths themselves, waiting to
be made real.  (And there is the complicating factor that they reflect
not only ancient myths but also real events from the past.)

> etc. we would not readily associate this story with Romulus or Kipling.

Do you think so?. Lots of people seem to have got the Romulus
reference without decoding the names; and for Mowgli, while 'Frog' is
certainly a giveaway, I think there's enough other stuff - a
woodcutter, a tiger, the two outsiders who persuade the wolves to take
him - to make the link fairly clear. (Likewise people have found the
sources for 'The Student and his Son' without many clues in the names.
Jonas helps there, but clearly _he_ was able to get it from the story
alone.)

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:03:49 +0000

I am very happy that James is pursuing this line of thought. It was always a pleasure to
identify Earth's myths within Urth's legends. It only enriches things to find that Urth's 
legends might also refer to its "flesh and blood" extant characters.
 
As previously mentioned, I think Severian's association of the Naviscaput with Abaia opens
the door to this theme. If James' ideas about Spring Wind and Typhon can be accepted, 
more doors open. I must wonder about every story and legend in BotNS, though I am probably
not literate enough to do the analysis myself.
 
I think Town That Forgot Fauna is a good candidate with its seemingly immortal old woman, 
the nine guys, even a mention of black beans. Could the proud rooster and his harem of hens
and his divinely superior opponent the angel/eagle represent Typhon and his conflict with 
Tzadkiel? I find the shapeshifting elements of this and the Armiger's Daughter story to be
intriguing.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 15:45:44 +0000

> right?)

I don't know. Maybe. I was only noting how tricking divining these 
stories is. In the Q&A, Wolfe implied that The Chapter in "Long Sun" is  
the Torturer's Guild. The wolves and the shepherds could be different 
branches from the same source. I don't really know _how_ these stories 
relate to the Urth Severian discovers in his travels. Frog and Fish died 
a long time before Sev was born. Is Typhon the hero in "The Tale of the 
Student and His Son"? I can't say at this point. It could be. Or it 
could be Frog (Typhon does eventually die in a fall, after all).

> Andrew Mason-
> There is some definite evidence that 'wolves' are not human,

That's an interesting point. Yeah, the wolves might not be human. Or 
even the shepherds.

> be made real.

Okay. But that still suggests a task for the reader to connect the 
stories to "actual" events in the novel.

> Andrew Mason-
> And there is the complicating factor that they reflect

Yes, but it is not debilitating, I think. I think we can safely say that 
the parts that are in the original myths/stories are absolutely 
historical. I want to return to my Jurassic Park analogy. In that novel, 
the missing parts of dinosaur is supplemented with frog DNA because 95% 
of chordate DNA is identical. This can lead to problems (as it did), but 
the principle was sound. The same with the stories in _Urth & Sky_. The 
historical events can be supplemented with myth without (mostly) 
undermining their veracity. Let me go at it another way:

Robert Graves constructed elaborate theories for how the Greek myths 
represented historical events. Well, imagine a historian translating the 
story of "Frog". In the process he remembers a stories about Romulus and 
The Jungle Books and says "Hmmm...clearly these stories are the same 
event." So he unwittingly does what Graves did -- reads myth and 
literature as an historical event. At the same time, he does what people 
do with the stories of King Arthur and Jesus. "Hey! There are 
similarities in these stories to ancient myths. Obviously King Arthur 
and Jesus are _merely_ reimagined versions of those myths."

But if the stories are _true_. That is, if our imagined historian did 
not _change_ the details that he _actually had_ of the histories to make 
them align with the myths, then we still have what the historian 
originally had as well.

Yeah, "The Tale of the Student and His Son" has parallels to the story 
of Theseus. But --really-- only in the broadest strokes. Did the actual 
"Son" carry an alfange? Was his battle with the ogre a naval battle? Was 
there a labyrinthine, Amazonian hide-out? Did the "Son" use a signal of 
sails to announce his success or failure? It's probably okay to make an 
assumption either way. I don't think those details are vital to the story.

But the ogre is Erebus or Abaia (and to my reading there appears to be 
some confabulation between the two -- yeah, they could be twins). 
Princess Noctua is not naturally born, just as the hero was not. There 
is evidence that tributes of youths were/are common practice among the 
tyrants of Urth...certainly Typhon demanded them.

> Jonas helps there, but clearly _he_ was able to get it from the story

Well, Jonas might know more details about the original story than we do. 
Also, Wolfe's characters are often able to make unlikely deductive 
leaps. But while people readily identify the ways that The Son parallels 
Theseus, most IMO do not appreciate how much of the story is not drawn 
from the myth.

As for people getting the Romulus reference, this is probably due to 
several things. 1) This list. Probably not as many people get it on 
their own as you think. 2) Lexicon Urthus. Same deal. 3) People know 
Wolfe. They recognize that he likes to interweave mythology into his 
stories, and they know he likes to interweave myths and stories about 
wolves, so they go looking for them.

However, (this is important I think) the entire novels --the lives of 
Severian, Silk, Horn, Green, Number Five-- are mapped over mythology and 
literature in the same way these little stories are. When people post on 
the list some close reference or another, others shrug and say "That's 
interesting." But they don't assume Green is _really_ Attis or Horn is 
_really_ John Carter. But (to my surprise) they often think something 
like that about the _Urth & Sky_ stories.

u+16b9

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 19:38:49 +0000

> James Wynn-
> I think we can safely say that the parts that are in the original 
> myths/stories are absolutely historical.
Should be...
"I think we can safely say that the parts that are NOT in the original 
myths/stories are absolutely historical."

---

From: DAVID STOCKHOFF <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:11:08 +0000

Good!?I was going to ask ...
I like the comparison of Horn to John Carter of Mars. But I only read the first book long ago and have forgotten it. Is there any direction the connection gives us?
Certainly Wolfe must have been in a Burroughs kind of mood for a while there, given all the six-legged creatures. Speaking of which, there is a movie version of?John Carter of Mars due out in 2012.
And going on another tangent, I always think of the inhumi as a metaphor for what happens when a writer falls under the influence of another writer: if you read a lot of Melville while you are writing, don't be surprised if it ends up retaining some of the character of Melville.
And Wolfe himself enjoys imitation; he did a great Dunsany pastiche once. He is very conscious, if not self-conscious, of the process of literary digestion and re-creation. It's more than just reference---it's re-working.

--- On Wed, 9/29/10, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: (urth) Spring Wind
To: "The Urth Mailing List" <urth at lists.urth.net>
Date: Wednesday, September 29, 2010, 3:38 PM

> James Wynn-
> I think we can safely say that the parts that are in the original myths/stories are absolutely historical.
Should be...
"I think we can safely say that the parts that are NOT in the original myths/stories are absolutely historical."
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From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Wed, 29 Sep 2010 20:43:07 +0000

> DAVID STOCKHOFF-
>
> I like the comparison of Horn to John Carter of Mars. But I only read 
> the first book long ago and have forgotten it. Is there any direction 
> the connection gives us?  Certainly Wolfe must have been in a 
> Burroughs kind of mood for a while there, given all the six-legged 
> creatures. Speaking of which, there is a movie version of John Carter 
> of Mars due out in 2012.  And going on another tangent, I always think 
> of the inhumi as a metaphor for what happens when a writer falls under 
> the influence of another writer: if you read a lot of Melville while 
> you are writing, don't be surprised if it ends up retaining some of 
> the character of Melville. And Wolfe himself enjoys imitation; he did 
> a great Dunsany pastiche once. He is very conscious, if not 
> self-conscious, of the process of literary digestion and re-creation. 
> It's more than just reference---it's re-working.
>

Perhaps Wolfe was intrigued the parallels between the Whorl and 
Pellucidar and decided to double-down on Burroughs.

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From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 14:36:57 +0000

> stories to "actual" events in the novel.

Yes, and I do think there are correspondences between 'Frog' and the
life of Severian. (I do find it harder to make out with 'The Student
and his Son') But on my reading the correspondences needn't be
perfect, any more than the correspondences between the life of Jesus
and the myths he is thought to fulfil are perfect. Indeed, the idea of
a story that imperfectly represents the reality it relates to seems to
run through the whole work - Jonas and Cyriaca tell stories about the
past of Urth which are illuminating, but get some details wrong; Dr
Talos's play corresponds, sometimes in amazing detail, to the actual
events surrounding the coming of the New Sun, but also diverges from
them in some ways; _Frankenstein_ is an imperfect account of the story
of Baldanders.

> historical.

Possible crossed wires here - when I said 'real events' I didn't mean
events in the time of Typhon or whatever, but things like the Pilgrim
Fathers, the Monitor and the Merrimack (I think also Pompey and the
Holy of Holies). So if the stories are myths made real, they seem also
to be real events made real (again), which is a bit odd. (But perhaps
not so odd. It is thought to be ther relation of some Old Testament
stories to Jesus, after all.)

> like that about the _Urth & Sky_ stories.

Well, I think there are reasons for that. First, we are told the
stories come down from the remote past, and while that could just mean
Typhon's time, there's no reason why it should be confined to that.
Then, Jonas recognises the story of Theseus and is able, in the light
of that, to explain a puzzle in the story as told. And in general, the
way the stories hang together is rather odd. Consider, say, the way it
is revealed in the last line of 'Frog' that the Naked One is also
called Squanto; it leaves you saying 'Where did that come from?' This
is explicable if it's a stitching-together of myths; less so if it's
either an account of real events or a new work of fiction.

---

From: James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:18:31 +0000

> Consider, say, the way it
> called Squanto; it leaves you saying 'Where did that come from?'

Well, just a joke from Wolfe, IMO.

Essentially, (so I believe) it is the same as renaming Typhon 
"Mars-Typhon", that is, "Spring Wind", because a scribe thought Mars 
from the Romulus story was the same person as Frog's father *++*
or applying "Juno" and later "June" to his mother for the same reason. 
It shows that the scribes understanding is imperfect and the scribe 
really did not know (or thought he did not know) the name of The Naked 
One. But it does not pervert the authenticity of the story.

*++*  This was a common method of identifying gods from different 
peoples and cults who were recognized as the same entity because they 
patronized similar domains, such as as fertility, poetry, healing, etc. 
Often they described how the other version was different/notable as in 
the Chthonic Zeus, or the Hanging Artimis. But, frequently, they would 
just append the two names together as in Cerigo-Aphrodite.

u+16b9

---

From: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes <danldo at gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 30 Sep 2010 17:23:02 +0000

On Thu, Sep 30, 2010 at 10:18 AM, James Wynn <crushtv at gmail.com> wrote:

> *++* ?This was a common method of identifying gods from different peoples
> and cults who were recognized as the same entity because they patronized
> similar domains, such as as fertility, poetry, healing, etc. Often they
> described how the other version was different/notable as in the Chthonic
> Zeus, or the Hanging Artimis. But, frequently, they would just append the
> two names together as in Cerigo-Aphrodite.

Or Passilk?

-- 
Dan'l Danehy-Oakes