{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5752", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5752, "subject": "Urth Digest, Vol 73, Issue 45", "messages": 9, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-09-23T20:00:39+00:00", "last": "2010-09-25T23:21:29+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T20:00:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 73, Issue 45", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "First, if you are born in the capital, you could not choose to make it your capital---it would already be the capital. You could only \"choose\" to make another planet your capital, anywhere there is a capital there are entrenched power structures.\nGranted, we don't even know there was already a capital or already an empire. Typhon may have created the empire rather than inheriting or even seizing it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I has assumed that Typhon created the Empire - that seems to be\nCyriaca's view (or that he tried to); that the ruler she's talking\nabout is Typhon is supported by his bringing the books to the Citadel,\nwhich is explicitly ascribed to Typhon in _Urth_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Third, I don't see why an origin in the stars would be inconsistent with a desire to return humanity to the stars. It strikes me as much more sensibly consistent than an origin on Urth, where by Severian's time no one cares about them but Vodalus, Inire, Baldanders, and the Autarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the Ascians. And Vodalus seems to think it will get him support.\n\nBut actually I agree with you; if it's just Typhon by himself,\narriving from the stars and trying to stir up Urthians to an interest\nin them, there's no inconsistency. What worried me is the image some\npeople have, I think, of Typhon as ruler of a galactic empire, with\npeople coming and going all the time, which would leave it very\npuzzling what point there would be be in sending out a Whorl. Whereas\nI would argue that though _New Sun_ clearly says nothing about actual\nWhorls, it does paint a picture of Typhon as trying to recapture the\nlong-lost stars, and sending out a once-for-all expedition to them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, I like your translation of \"Bird in the Wood.\" Nice work!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks!" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T20:07:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 73, Issue 45", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Andrew Mason\n wrote:\nI has assumed that Typhon created the Empire - that seems to be\nCyriaca's view (or that he tried to); that the ruler she's talking\nabout is Typhon is supported by his bringing the books to the Citadel,\nwhich is explicitly ascribed to Typhon in _Urth_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmm.\n\nTyphon is the _last_ Monarch. That there were more than one is\nevidenced by the chain of mountains carved into the likenesses of\nMonarchs; that he is the last is evidenced by his being succeeded by\nthe first Autarch.\n\nErgo, I don't believe he built the Empire." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<37722.60487.qm@web84104.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-23T21:01:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 73, Issue 45", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Exactly. I see Typhon as far from a galactic conqueror, that he ruled a handful of star systems. I see him as a minor despot who is a towering figure only because the true emperors are gone.\nNor do I imagine starliners ever going back and forth between worlds, like trains. But that's just a suspicion, and it's based on Severian's world. Maybe the robot-culture empire was indeed more familiar to us than his viewpoint makes it; maybe Typhon was more like the Mule than I think.\nAnyway, even if he created his empire I'd apply the same logic, because it would be natural for an Urthian to make Urth his capital.\nAnother assumption I admit to is that I don't see Typhon's empire as created from scratch---I see him as going out and roping together a number of planets like ancient city-states that were once united. They were colonized long ago, in other words, and at the time rivaled Urth.\nI get no sense from Typhon that any world in his empire lorded it over any other. Rather, he owned, possessed, and ruled them all. If Urth were still the mother planet, she would be the metropole and would suck up all the others' resources, which would almost demand Typhon's identification with the mother world's elite and thus his location of his capital there. But again, he seems to have chosen Urth deliberately for personal and political reasons, which suggests Urth was not the center of the human universe at the time.\nIf so, another world may have been greater than Urth ever was, which again provides an explanation for whatever technology (if that's what it is) produced him. Possibly his planet's elite practiced genetic modification on themselves, just as Urth's did, but discovered how to produce greater mental powers, as they did not. Perhaps the mandragora came from there.\nSo as to the \"monster\" question, Typhon would then have been created from human stock. Baldanders created himself. I can see both as Monsters.\n--- On Thu, 9/23/10, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: Andrew Mason \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 73, Issue 45\nTo: urth at lists.urth.net\nDate: Thursday, September 23, 2010, 4:00 PM\nFirst, if you are born in the capital, you could not choose to make it your capital---it would already be the capital. You could only \"choose\" to make another planet your capital, anywhere there is a capital there are entrenched power structures.\nGranted, we don't even know there was already a capital or already an empire. Typhon may have created the empire rather than inheriting or even seizing it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I has assumed that Typhon created the Empire - that seems to be\nCyriaca's view (or that he tried to); that the ruler she's talking\nabout is Typhon is supported by his bringing the books to the Citadel,\nwhich is explicitly ascribed to Typhon in _Urth_." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Third, I don't see why an origin in the stars would be inconsistent with a desire to return humanity to the stars. It strikes me as much more sensibly consistent than an origin on Urth, where by Severian's time no one cares about them but Vodalus, Inire, Baldanders, and the Autarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "And the Ascians. And Vodalus seems to think it will get him support.\n\nBut actually I agree with you; if it's just Typhon by himself,\narriving from the stars and trying to stir up Urthians to an interest\nin them, there's no inconsistency. What worried me is the image some\npeople have, I think, of Typhon as ruler of a galactic empire, with\npeople coming and going all the time, which would leave it very\npuzzling what point there would be be in sending out a Whorl. Whereas\nI would argue that though _New Sun_? clearly says nothing about actual\nWhorls, it does paint a picture of Typhon as trying to recapture the\nlong-lost stars, and sending out a once-for-all expedition to them." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "By the way, I like your translation of \"Bird in the Wood.\" Nice work!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Thanks!" } ] }, { "message_id": "<613334.19601.qm@web84108.mail.mud.yahoo.com>", "from": { "name": "DAVID STOCKHOFF", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-23T21:04:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 73, Issue 45", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "You're right---but his place in a chain of Monarchs doesn't mean he didn't make himself Monarch by brute force.\nMonarchs do not always inherit, and their territories can change dramatically---greater or smaller---while their titles grow ever longer. Again, the Romans and Byzantines are a model.\n\n--- On Thu, 9/23/10, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\nFrom: Dan'l Danehy-Oakes \nSubject: Re: (urth) Urth Digest, Vol 73, Issue 45\nTo: \"The Urth Mailing List\" \nDate: Thursday, September 23, 2010, 4:07 PM" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Sep 23, 2010 at 1:00 PM, Andrew Mason\n wrote:\nI has assumed that Typhon created the Empire - that seems to be\nCyriaca's view (or that he tried to); that the ruler she's talking\nabout is Typhon is supported by his bringing the books to the Citadel,\nwhich is explicitly ascribed to Typhon in _Urth_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Ummmm.\n\nTyphon is the _last_ Monarch. That there were more than one is\nevidenced by the chain of mountains carved into the likenesses of\nMonarchs; that he is the last is evidenced by his being succeeded by\nthe first Autarch.\n\nErgo, I don't believe he built the Empire." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Mr Thalassocrat", "address": "thalassocrat08 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T21:34:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 73, Issue 45", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 5:37 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\n\n\nUmmmm.\n\nTyphon is the _last_ Monarch. That there were more than one is\nevidenced by the chain of mountains carved into the likenesses of\nMonarchs; that he is the last is evidenced by his being succeeded by\nthe first Autarch.\n\nErgo, I don't believe he built the Empire." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hang on - I'm pretty sure that it says somewhere that Typhon was the *first*\nto carve a mountain, and that the *Autarchs* continued the silly practice.\nNo?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9BCAD1.7090402@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T21:46:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Mountain 'Autarch' (was: Re: Urth Digest, Vol 73, Issue 45)", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 23/09/10 21:07, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nUmmmm.\n\nTyphon is the _last_ Monarch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "True, that's made quite explicit in BOTNS" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "That there were more than one is\nevidenced by the chain of mountains carved into the likenesses of\nMonarchs" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "On the contrary I believe it is stated quite clearly in UOTNS that Mount \nTyphon is the first to be carved in this way. Severian-the-Conciliator \nis struck by the unmodified mountain peaks when he revisits the Cursed \nTown as Typhon's prisoner and he is able to tell the Chiliarch that from \nthe observed state of the works, Typhon has little longer to live \n(presumably he remembers the positions of the (stopped) digging machines \nand the exact state of the carving from his earlier/later visit).\n\nThere's no suggestion that any of the other peaks are similarly carved \nat this stage, indeed I think it is stated clearly that they are not. \nTyphon was the first to have the massive ego I suppose! Later, some \nAutarchs adopted the 'tradition' and had their own likenesses carved \ninto other mountains; at Severian's (original) time they've been carved \nthat way for so long that the bare peaks seem strange to him.\n\nShame we're not told who some of the others might have been!\n\nTyphon didn't build the Empire though; that's very clear. He was a \n(monstrous) product of its last days and its decadence - to the extent \nthat having despatched various ships including the generation ship the \nWhorl, he found himself marooned on Urth and unable to leave.\n\nI do wonder (as one who has not read the Long Sun / Short Sun books) \nwhether Typhon sent out the Whorl as some kind of last hurrah, a message \nfrom the vast ego of the last Monarch of Urth to the galaxy that his \npredecessors once dominated.\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9BD4BB.2010304@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-23T22:29:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 73, Issue 45", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/23/2010 4:34 PM, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:\n\n\nOn Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 5:37 AM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes > wrote:\n\n\n Ummmm.\n\n Typhon is the _last_ Monarch. That there were more than one is\n evidenced by the chain of mountains carved into the likenesses of\n Monarchs; that he is the last is evidenced by his being succeeded by\n the first Autarch.\n\n Ergo, I don't believe he built the Empire.\n\nHang on - I'm pretty sure that it says somewhere that Typhon was the\n*first* to carve a mountain, and that the *Autarchs* continued the silly\npractice. No?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon is the first to carve his face into the western Andes, at least. \nThe Autarchs that follow do likewise, but there semms also to be a \nsuccession of Autarchs before Typhon, or at least a succession of people \nwhose minds are inherited by the post-Typhon succession. URTH, XLI: \"and \nI began, as I walked on, to search those veiled lives that lie behind \nthe last, memories that I have scarcely mentioned in this narrative, \nthat dim as they grow stranger and stretch backward, perhaps, to Ymar, \nand behind Ymar to the Age of Myth.\"" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<007c01cb5bac$3eefda40$49cf4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-09-24T05:49:18+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 73, Issue 45", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote:\nI has assumed that Typhon created the Empire - that seems to be\nCyriaca's view (or that he tried to); that the ruler she's talking\nabout is Typhon is supported by his bringing the books to the Citadel,\nwhich is explicitly ascribed to Typhon in _Urth_." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes, her story seems to link him to the library at the Citadel, and the\nphysician who looked in on Severian there after the \"earthquake\" lends that\nsome support. But Typhon had dreams of a Second Empire, as her tale\nspecifies. The First Empire had covered the whole galaxy and maybe others.\nThe old spaceships at the Citadel in Typhon's time were rusting relics of\nany earlier wave of spacefare; the Citadel is even referred to then as the\n\"old port\". Typhon evidently ruled some undetermined number of planets, some\nof them probably outside of Urth's solar system, but such planets as he\nruled paled in comparison to the First Empire.\n\n[snip]" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But actually I agree with you; if it's just Typhon by himself,\narriving from the stars and trying to stir up Urthians to an interest\nin them, there's no inconsistency. What worried me is the image some\npeople have, I think, of Typhon as ruler of a galactic empire, with\npeople coming and going all the time, which would leave it very\npuzzling what point there would be be in sending out a Whorl. Whereas\nI would argue that though _New Sun_ clearly says nothing about actual\nWhorls, it does paint a picture of Typhon as trying to recapture the\nlong-lost stars, and sending out a once-for-all expedition to them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think anyone has claimed that Typhon ruled a galactic empire, and he\ndidn't. But it is also true that humans were already spread all over the\ngalaxy, at a minimum. As Apheta told Severian: \"Because your race is\nimportant to us. It would be far less laborious if we could deal with it all\nat once, but you are sown over tens of thousands of worlds, and we cannot.\"\n(URTH, chap. XIX, p-135)\n\nTyphon's _Whorl_ expedition was more of a gesture than anything else, a\none-finger salute to the universe and a sop to his ego. It had absolutely\nnothing to do with preserving the human race or spreading it around the\ngalaxy.\n\nBTW, in another thread, it is true, as others have pointed out, that Typhon\nwas the first to carve one of those mountains into human likeness. When\nSeverian was taken to meet Typhon on the mountain, he stepped out of the\nflier and saw: \"All around us ragged, faceless peaks loomed through pent\nclouds. We were among mountains, but mountains that had not yet put on the\ncarven likenesses of men and women--such unshaped mountains, then, as are to\nbe seen in the oldest pictures.\" (URTH, chap. XXXVIII, p- 271)\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9E83F9.5000901@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-09-25T23:21:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Urth Digest, Vol 73, Issue 45", "in_reply_to": "<4C9BD4BB.2010304@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 23/09/10 23:29, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 9/23/2010 4:34 PM, Mr Thalassocrat wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hang on - I'm pretty sure that it says somewhere that Typhon was the\n*first* to carve a mountain, and that the *Autarchs* continued the silly\npractice. No?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Typhon is the first to carve his face into the western Andes, at \nleast. The Autarchs that follow do likewise, but there semms also to \nbe a succession of Autarchs before Typhon, or at least a succession of \npeople whose minds are inherited by the post-Typhon succession. URTH, \nXLI: \"and I began, as I walked on, to search those veiled lives that \nlie behind the last, memories that I have scarcely mentioned in this \nnarrative, that dim as they grow stranger and stretch backward, \nperhaps, to Ymar, and behind Ymar to the Age of Myth.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Surely the operative word here is *'perhaps'*?\n\njd" } ] } ] }