{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5754", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5754, "subject": "Autarchs", "messages": 13, "voices": 7, "first": "2010-09-26T19:24:11+00:00", "last": "2010-09-28T01:52:39+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-26T19:24:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Autarchs", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nTyphon is the first to carve his face into the western Andes, at least.\nThe Autarchs that follow do likewise, but there semms also to be a\nsuccession of Autarchs before Typhon, or at least a succession of people\nwhose minds are inherited by the post-Typhon succession. URTH, XLI: \"and\nI began, as I walked on, to search those veiled lives that lie behind\nthe last, memories that I have scarcely mentioned in this narrative,\nthat dim as they grow stranger and stretch backward, perhaps, to Ymar,\nand behind Ymar to the Age of Myth.\"" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not clear to me that Autarchs eat the brains only of Autarchs:\nthe stated aim of the practice is to make the whole Commonwealth\npresent within one person. Though of course this raises the question\nwho might have maintaining a chain of brain-eaters before Ymar's time.\n\nOne piece of evidence that the autarchy existed in some form before\nYmar arises in connection with the Antechamber; we are told that\nbefore Ymar, all crimes committed around the House Absolute were\njudged by the Autarch himself. I suppiose, though, that this might be\nanother case of the loose use of 'Autarch' to mean 'ruler'." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9FBCF9.6010205@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-26T21:36:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Autarchs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/26/2010 2:24 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Typhon is the first to carve his face into the western Andes, at least.\nThe Autarchs that follow do likewise, but there semms also to be a\nsuccession of Autarchs before Typhon, or at least a succession of people\nwhose minds are inherited by the post-Typhon succession. URTH, XLI: \"and\nI began, as I walked on, to search those veiled lives that lie behind\nthe last, memories that I have scarcely mentioned in this narrative,\nthat dim as they grow stranger and stretch backward, perhaps, to Ymar,\nand behind Ymar to the Age of Myth.\"" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "It's not clear to me that Autarchs eat the brains only of Autarchs:\nthe stated aim of the practice is to make the whole Commonwealth\npresent within one person. Though of course this raises the question\nwho might have maintaining a chain of brain-eaters before Ymar's time.\n\nOne piece of evidence that the autarchy existed in some form before\nYmar arises in connection with the Antechamber; we are told that\nbefore Ymar, all crimes committed around the House Absolute were\njudged by the Autarch himself. I suppiose, though, that this might be\nanother case of the loose use of 'Autarch' to mean 'ruler'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In that case, what distinguishes autarchs from those rulers who are not?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4C9FF9BB.9060007@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T01:56:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) what is an autarch? (was: Re: Autarchs)", "in_reply_to": "<4C9FBCF9.6010205@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 26/09/10 22:36, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 9/26/2010 2:24 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It's not clear to me that Autarchs eat the brains only of Autarchs:\nthe stated aim of the practice is to make the whole Commonwealth\npresent within one person. Though of course this raises the question\nwho might have maintaining a chain of brain-eaters before Ymar's time." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there any evidence that anyone did? I don't see it. There's that \n'perhaps' in Severian's musing (really, he has no idea at all how far \nback the 'inherited' memories go; he has no direct access to Ymar for \ninstance - as Conciliator, Sev doesn't even recognise the guy at first, \nwhen he's supposed to have ingested Ymar's memories alongside those of \nall the other Autarchs) and while someone, somewhen, has to have \nintroduced the tradition along with its essential mediator, the alzabo, \nit's not at all clear when this happened.\n\nSev tells us several times over that it's only the most recent memories \nwhich are at all clear. While he is aware at some level of the multitude \nof individuals that dwell within an Autarch, he has direct and detailed \naccess to the memories of no more than two or three of them - and in his \ncase, the most prominent alternate is Thecla; no Autarch, but rather \nsomething of an innocent bystander." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In that case, what distinguishes autarchs from those rulers who are not?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I submit that save in the case of Ymar, who was the first, the \ndistinction is precisely in the ingestion of the memories of the \npredecessor. Ymar, it is quite clear, did not perform the alzabo ritual \nupon his predecessor Typhon. There's no question about this; it simply \ndidn't happen. How do we know for sure? Well - when Sev finds Typhon's \ndessicated and then resurrected body, it has two heads, and they are \nboth intact. Nobody has taken an oyster-knife to Typhon's skull; nor to \nPiaton's for that matter.\n\nI think also that this distinction is probably the motivation behind \nVodalus's resurrectionist cult. By ingesting the memories of what is \nprobably quite a random selection of individuals ('Not another tribade \n...!'), he is attempting to turn himself into a kind of faux Autarch. \nThat's his ambition after all. His lover Thea refers at one point to an \nimagined future time 'when Vodalus is Autarch' (she imagines herself as \nhis Autarchia); and Vodalus himself is desperate to recover the \nAutarch's crashed flyer when he's informed by his spy (the Old Autarch \nhimself of course) that the Autarch is with him in the wreckage. This \nwould be an ideal brain-eating opportunity; but Vodalus blows it.\n\nIn his message, the Old Autarch is referring to Severian, whom he knows \nto be his destined successor; not to himself. (Perhaps he thinks that \nSev will be physically strong enough to resist, or that Vodalus simply \nwon't consider that the person that his temporary ally Agia is pursuing \ncould be Autarch in waiting). Vodalus has no idea that his spy is really \nthe Autarch himself. So when his agents (of whom he fondly believes Agia \nto be one) recover the occupants of the craft and he sees only his spy \n(obviously gravely injured) and Agia's quarry, he simply wonders where \nthe Autarch may have gone, and thus lets an opportunity to seize the \nthrone slip through his hands.\n\nIt's all in the neural chemistry. Perhaps Vodalus thinks that if he \ningests a sufficient number of memories, some of which may come from \nindividuals who have held positions in the House Absolute, he will \neventually get to know enough of the Words to be able to claim the \nthrone (on behalf of the exultant class, even).\n\n\nSo: while there's very little information on /why/ this tradition \nstarted, I think it's clear enough how it operates (that UOTNS phrase, \n'Epitome of Urth', turns out to be entirely appropriate) and also that \nYmar started it.\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA02C9D.2060007@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T05:33:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) what is an autarch?", "in_reply_to": "<4C9FF9BB.9060007@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/26/2010 8:56 PM, Jane Delawney wrote:\nOn 26/09/10 22:36, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 9/26/2010 2:24 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "It's not clear to me that Autarchs eat the brains only of Autarchs:\nthe stated aim of the practice is to make the whole Commonwealth\npresent within one person. Though of course this raises the question\nwho might have maintaining a chain of brain-eaters before Ymar's time." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there any evidence that anyone did? I don't see it. There's that\n'perhaps' in Severian's musing (really, he has no idea at all how far\nback the 'inherited' memories go; he has no direct access to Ymar for\ninstance - as Conciliator, Sev doesn't even recognise the guy at first,\nwhen he's supposed to have ingested Ymar's memories alongside those of\nall the other Autarchs) and while someone, somewhen, has to have\nintroduced the tradition along with its essential mediator, the alzabo,\nit's not at all clear when this happened.\n\nSev tells us several times over that it's only the most recent memories\nwhich are at all clear. While he is aware at some level of the multitude\nof individuals that dwell within an Autarch, he has direct and detailed\naccess to the memories of no more than two or three of them - and in his\ncase, the most prominent alternate is Thecla; no Autarch, but rather\nsomething of an innocent bystander." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "He also says that the huge volume and jumble of memories are the \nobstacles to his direct recollection, and he has to search for the \ndesired ones among the great pile. This means he would constantly be \ncoming across other memories along the way, and he is able to attribute \nthem to various sorts of people that he mentions include children and \npeasant wives and scholars. He apparently comes across some memories \nthat seem to be older than those of Ymar - any memory of utterly \nuncarved mountains, for instance, and this is from his perspective in \nURTH, after being in the confidence of Inire the analeptic supplier for \na decade.\n\nSev confirms that he has knowledge of them that he does not choose to \ninclude in the narrative, so he does have considerable knowledge of the \nsecond hand memories, if only by repetition of memory since it would be \nunlikely that any of the original brain cells would last more than a \ncentury or two even without multiple ingestions.\n\nThe answer could be that alzabo users habitutally seek other alzabo \nusers to assimilate, so that there are many successions of memories \nhidden among the scholars of the post-Imperial era, and the Autarchy has \nacquired at least one that goes back into deep history.\n\nOr, there might be a few star-sailors in the mix." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA08055.2030500@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T11:30:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) what is an autarch?", "in_reply_to": "<4C9FF9BB.9060007@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jane Delawney wrote (27-09-2010 02:56):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 26/09/10 22:36, Jeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In that case, what distinguishes autarchs from those rulers who are\nnot?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I submit that save in the case of Ymar, who was the first, the\ndistinction is precisely in the ingestion of the memories of the\npredecessor." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I don't think one needs to go to that. A monarchy is characterised by\nhereditary succession, divine right, exercise of power for its own sake. The\nAutarchy is supposed to have been the opposite: non-hereditary, rulers from\nlowly backgrounds, rule in the name of the community. In fact, quite like\n*some* periods of the roman imperial system.\n\nOf course, like has been said, someone not familiar with the term 'autarch', \nor only with a previous meaning of it, might just take it for an adequately \nhigh regal title." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA085C7.10702@verizon.net>", "from": { "name": "David Stockhoff", "address": "dstockhoff at verizon.net" }, "date": "2010-09-27T11:53:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) what is an autarch?", "in_reply_to": "<4CA02C9D.2060007@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " Exactly." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/27/2010 1:33 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nThe answer could be that alzabo users habitutally seek other alzabo \nusers to assimilate, so that there are many successions of memories \nhidden among the scholars of the post-Imperial era, and the Autarchy \nhas acquired at least one that goes back into deep history.\n\nOr, there might be a few star-sailors in the mix. " } ] }, { "message_id": "<54A04981D8534619BF29F21B076DA37F@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-09-27T12:18:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) what is an autarch? (was: Re: Autarchs)", "in_reply_to": "<4C9FF9BB.9060007@sky.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "From: Jane Delawney \n I submit that save in the case of Ymar, who was the first, the distinction is precisely in the ingestion of the memories of the predecessor. Ymar, it is quite clear, did not perform the alzabo ritual upon his predecessor Typhon. There's no question about this; it simply didn't happen. How do we know for sure? Well - when Sev finds Typhon's dessicated and then resurrected body, it has two heads, and they are both intact. Nobody has taken an oyster-knife to Typhon's skull; nor to Piaton's for that matter. \n\n\nWe're probably not meant to think too deeply about the implications of the Vodalus method, which seems to work quite well even though no brain need be ingested. Nobody mentions it, but shouldn't it be possible to obtain the memories of the living in the same fashion, by cutting away and eating some less essential tissue (something the size of a finger joint is apparently enough). It would be useful for conducting interrogations, if nothing else...\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-09-27T12:21:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) what is an autarch?", "in_reply_to": "<4CA02C9D.2060007@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Jeff Wilson\" \nHe also says that the huge volume and jumble of memories are the \nobstacles to his direct recollection, and he has to search for the \ndesired ones among the great pile. This means he would constantly be \ncoming across other memories along the way, and he is able to attribute \nthem to various sorts of people that he mentions include children and \npeasant wives and scholars. He apparently comes across some memories \nthat seem to be older than those of Ymar - any memory of utterly \nuncarved mountains, for instance, and this is from his perspective in \nURTH, after being in the confidence of Inire the analeptic supplier for \na decade." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Didn't that 'memory' of uncarved moutains come from old photographs? \n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T14:44:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Autarchs", "in_reply_to": "<4C9FBCF9.6010205@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\n\nOn 9/26/2010 2:24 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "One piece of evidence that the autarchy existed in some form before\nYmar arises in connection with the Antechamber; we are told that\nbefore Ymar, all crimes committed around the House Absolute were\njudged by the Autarch himself. I suppiose, though, that this might be\nanother case of the loose use of 'Autarch' to mean 'ruler'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In that case, what distinguishes autarchs from those rulers who are not?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As I understand it, what properly distinguishes an autarch is that he\nrules himself: that is why Ymar and his successors chose that title.\nHowever, most people probably don't know that; having lived under an\nautarch for a thousand years, they think of that as the normal term\nfor a ruler. Both Jonas (as Roy mentioned) and Cyriaca refer to\nancient rulers as autarchs, before pointing out that strictly speaking\nthis is wrong." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T16:30:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Autarchs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason: As I understand it, what properly distinguishes an autarch is that he\nrules himself: that is why Ymar and his successors chose that title." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I find it difficult to understand the semantic distinction between an autarch and a\ndespotic monarch like Typhon. If anything, the autarch seems to rule him/herself \nless as he/she seems to be somewhat answerable to a powerful exultant class below them\nand the dictates of cacogens above them (not to mention Father Inire, wherever he fits\nin).\n \nAll I can think is that it is a wishful title for the future. An Autarch will eventually\nbe a self-ruler of the people because he/she will eventually house all the people of\nthe Commonwealth within his/her consciousness. (that's the goal, obviously it fell far\nshort of completion; as I see it, just another sham game piece in the cosmic manipulation\nof Severian). \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA14568.7030507@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T01:31:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) what is an autarch?", "in_reply_to": "<54A04981D8534619BF29F21B076DA37F@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/27/2010 7:18 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n*From:* Jane Delawney \n\n I submit that save in the case of Ymar, who was the first, the\n distinction is precisely in the ingestion of the memories of the\n predecessor. Ymar, it is quite clear, did not perform the alzabo\n ritual upon his predecessor Typhon. There's no question about this;\n it simply didn't happen. How do we know for sure? Well - when Sev\n finds Typhon's dessicated and then resurrected body, it has two\n heads, and they are both intact. Nobody has taken an oyster-knife to\n Typhon's skull; nor to Piaton's for that matter.\n\nWe're probably not meant to think too deeply about the implications of\nthe Vodalus method, which seems to work quite well even though no brain\nneed be ingested. Nobody mentions it, but shouldn't it be possible to\nobtain the memories of the living in the same fashion, by cutting away\nand eating some less essential tissue (something the size of a finger\njoint is apparently enough). It would be useful for conducting\ninterrogations, if nothing else..." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I was speculating aloud on that 2-3 months back. The only reason I can \nthink of that Vodalus doesn't do both people from the wreck is that he \nanticipates having to give one up to the Ascians but doesn't know which \none, and doesn't think the injured one would survive being \"sampled\" in \nthis way." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA14680.4070102@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T01:36:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) what is an autarch?", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/27/2010 7:21 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:\n\nFrom: \"Jeff Wilson\" " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "He also says that the huge volume and jumble of memories are the\nobstacles to his direct recollection, and he has to search for the\ndesired ones among the great pile. This means he would constantly be\ncoming across other memories along the way, and he is able to\nattribute them to various sorts of people that he mentions include\nchildren and peasant wives and scholars. He apparently comes across\nsome memories that seem to be older than those of Ymar - any memory of\nutterly uncarved mountains, for instance, and this is from his\nperspective in URTH, after being in the confidence of Inire the\nanaleptic supplier for a decade." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Didn't that 'memory' of uncarved moutains come from old photographs?\n- Gerry Quinn" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's the \"oldest pictures\" (photographs seem not to have been \nreintroduced into the Commonwealth, possibly due to the lack of silver) \nthat would serve to verify that a hypothetical memory of utterly \nuncarved mountains comes from before Typhon's reign. This still wouldn't \nbe the Age of Myth, which by definition would have left no readily \nverifiable artifacts.\n\nI'm not citing a specific memory of exceptional age, because Sev doesn't \nrecord the distinguishable content of any, but he does mention the \nquantity of disordered and \"strange\" memories that are accessible to be \nsearched through. He does mention knowledge of previous donors coming \nup unbidden on occasion, so there are certain comprehensible memories \nthere still, and his supposition that they extend back into the Age of \nMyth implies that sometime he remembers things that can't be placed in \nany historical era on record, as well as some that might match the times \nof the earliest successors of Ymar, ao that some memories that have no \nparticular historical context could be those of Ymar himself." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA14A67.9020108@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T01:52:39+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Autarchs", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/27/2010 9:44 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nJeff Wilson wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 9/26/2010 2:24 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "One piece of evidence that the autarchy existed in some form before\nYmar arises in connection with the Antechamber; we are told that\nbefore Ymar, all crimes committed around the House Absolute were\njudged by the Autarch himself. I suppiose, though, that this might be\nanother case of the loose use of 'Autarch' to mean 'ruler'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "In that case, what distinguishes autarchs from those rulers who are not?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I understand it, what properly distinguishes an autarch is that he\nrules himself: that is why Ymar and his successors chose that title.\nHowever, most people probably don't know that; having lived under an\nautarch for a thousand years, they think of that as the normal term\nfor a ruler. Both Jonas (as Roy mentioned) and Cyriaca refer to\nancient rulers as autarchs, before pointing out that strictly speaking\nthis is wrong." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This doesn't distinguish them from Typhon, who owes fealty to no one else." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] } ] }