Subject: (urth) Autarchs

From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 19:24:11 +0000

Jeff Wilson wrote:
>
> Typhon is the first to carve his face into the western Andes, at least.
> The Autarchs that follow do likewise, but there semms also to be a
> succession of Autarchs before Typhon, or at least a succession of people
> whose minds are inherited by the post-Typhon succession. URTH, XLI: "and
> I began, as I walked on, to search those veiled lives that lie behind
> the last, memories that I have scarcely mentioned in this narrative,
> that dim as they grow stranger and stretch backward, perhaps, to Ymar,
> and behind Ymar to the Age of Myth."

It's not clear to me that Autarchs eat the brains only of Autarchs:
the stated aim of the practice is to make the whole Commonwealth
present within one person. Though of course this raises the question
who might have maintaining a chain of brain-eaters before Ymar's time.

One piece of evidence that the autarchy existed in some form before
Ymar arises in connection with the Antechamber; we are told that
before Ymar, all crimes committed around the House Absolute were
judged by the Autarch himself. I suppiose, though, that this might be
another case of the loose use of 'Autarch' to mean 'ruler'.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sun, 26 Sep 2010 21:36:57 +0000

> another case of the loose use of 'Autarch' to mean 'ruler'.

In that case, what distinguishes autarchs from those rulers who are not?

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana
< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >

---

From: Jane Delawney <jane_delawney at sky.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 01:56:11 +0000

>> who might have maintaining a chain of brain-eaters before Ymar's time.
Is there any evidence that anyone did? I don't see it. There's that 
'perhaps' in Severian's musing (really, he has no idea at all how far 
back the 'inherited' memories go; he has no direct access to Ymar for 
instance - as Conciliator, Sev doesn't even recognise the guy at first, 
when he's supposed to have ingested Ymar's memories alongside those of 
all the other Autarchs) and while someone, somewhen, has to have 
introduced the tradition along with its essential mediator, the alzabo, 
it's not at all clear when this happened.

Sev tells us several times over that it's only the most recent memories 
which are at all clear. While he is aware at some level of the multitude 
of individuals that dwell within an Autarch, he has direct and detailed 
access to the memories of no more than two or three of them - and in his 
case, the most prominent alternate is Thecla; no Autarch, but rather 
something of an innocent bystander.

> In that case, what distinguishes autarchs from those rulers who are not?
I submit that save in the case of Ymar, who was the first, the 
distinction is precisely in the ingestion of the memories of the 
predecessor. Ymar, it is quite clear, did not perform the alzabo ritual 
upon his predecessor Typhon. There's no question about this; it simply 
didn't happen. How do we know for sure? Well - when Sev finds Typhon's 
dessicated and then resurrected body, it has two heads, and they are 
both intact. Nobody has taken an oyster-knife to Typhon's skull; nor to 
Piaton's for that matter.

I think also that this distinction is probably the motivation behind 
Vodalus's resurrectionist cult. By ingesting the memories of what is 
probably quite a random selection of individuals ('Not another tribade 
...!'), he is attempting to turn himself into a kind of faux Autarch. 
That's his ambition after all. His lover Thea refers at one point to an 
imagined future time 'when Vodalus is Autarch' (she imagines herself as 
his Autarchia); and Vodalus himself is desperate to recover the 
Autarch's crashed flyer when he's informed by his spy (the Old Autarch 
himself of course) that the Autarch is with him in the wreckage. This 
would be an ideal brain-eating opportunity; but Vodalus blows it.

In his message, the Old Autarch is referring to Severian, whom he knows 
to be his destined successor; not to himself. (Perhaps he thinks that 
Sev will be physically strong enough to resist, or that Vodalus simply 
won't consider that the person that his temporary ally Agia is pursuing 
could be Autarch in waiting). Vodalus has no idea that his spy is really 
the Autarch himself. So when his agents (of whom he fondly believes Agia 
to be one) recover the occupants of the craft and he sees only his spy 
(obviously gravely injured) and Agia's quarry, he simply wonders where 
the Autarch may have gone, and thus lets an opportunity to seize the 
throne slip through his hands.

It's all in the neural chemistry. Perhaps Vodalus thinks that if he 
ingests a sufficient number of memories, some of which may come from 
individuals who have held positions in the House Absolute, he will 
eventually get to know enough of the Words to be able to claim the 
throne (on behalf of the exultant class, even).

So: while there's very little information on /why/ this tradition 
started, I think it's clear enough how it operates (that UOTNS phrase, 
'Epitome of Urth', turns out to be entirely appropriate) and also that 
Ymar started it.

jd
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20100927/e90df3ca/attachment.htm>

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 05:33:17 +0000

> something of an innocent bystander.

He also says that the huge volume and jumble of memories are the 
obstacles to his direct recollection, and he has to search for the 
desired ones among the great pile. This means he would constantly be 
coming across other memories along the way, and he is able to attribute 
them to various sorts of people that he mentions include children and 
peasant wives and scholars. He apparently comes across some memories 
that seem to be older than those of Ymar - any memory of utterly 
uncarved mountains, for instance, and this is from his perspective in 
URTH, after being in the confidence of Inire the analeptic supplier for 
a decade.

Sev confirms that he has knowledge of them that he does not choose to 
include in the narrative, so he does have considerable knowledge of the 
second hand memories, if only by repetition of memory since it would be 
unlikely that any of the original brain cells would last more than a 
century or two even without multiple ingestions.

The answer could be that alzabo users habitutally seek other alzabo 
users to assimilate, so that there are many successions of memories 
hidden among the scholars of the post-Imperial era, and the Autarchy has 
acquired at least one that goes back into deep history.

Or, there might be a few star-sailors in the mix.

---

From: António Pedro Marques <entonio at gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:30:29 +0000

Jane Delawney wrote (27-09-2010 02:56):
> predecessor.

I don't think one needs to go to that. A monarchy is characterised by
hereditary succession, divine right, exercise of power for its own sake. The
Autarchy is supposed to have been the opposite: non-hereditary, rulers from
lowly backgrounds, rule in the name of the community. In fact, quite like
*some* periods of the roman imperial system.

Of course, like has been said, someone not familiar with the term 'autarch', 
or only with a previous meaning of it, might just take it for an adequately 
high regal title.

---

From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 11:53:43 +0000

On 9/27/2010 1:33 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:
> hidden among the scholars of the post-Imperial era, and the Autarchy 
> has acquired at least one that goes back into deep history.
>

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:18:35 +0000

We're probably not meant to think too deeply about the implications of the Vodalus method, which seems to work quite well even though no brain need be ingested.  Nobody mentions it, but shouldn't it be possible to obtain the memories of the living in the same fashion, by cutting away and eating some less essential tissue (something the size of a finger joint is apparently enough).  It would be useful for conducting interrogations, if nothing else...

- Gerry Quinn
-------------- next part --------------
An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
URL: <http://lists.urth.net/pipermail/urth-urth.net/attachments/20100927/a424f8b4/attachment.htm>

---

From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 12:21:45 +0000

From: "Jeff Wilson" <jwilson at io.com>

> URTH, after being in the confidence of Inire the analeptic supplier for 

Didn't that 'memory' of uncarved moutains come from old photographs?  

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Andrew Mason <andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 14:44:13 +0000

> In that case, what distinguishes autarchs from those rulers who are not?

As I understand it, what properly distinguishes an autarch is that he
rules himself: that is why Ymar and his successors chose that title.
However, most people probably don't know that; having lived under an
autarch for a thousand years, they think of that as the normal term
for a ruler. Both Jonas (as Roy mentioned) and Cyriaca refer to
ancient rulers as autarchs, before pointing out that strictly speaking
this is wrong.

---

From: Lee Berman <severiansola at hotmail.com>
Date: Mon, 27 Sep 2010 16:30:00 +0000

>Andrew Mason: As I understand it, what properly distinguishes an autarch is that he

I find it difficult to understand the semantic distinction between an autarch and a
despotic monarch like Typhon.  If anything, the autarch seems to rule him/herself 
less as he/she seems to be somewhat answerable to a powerful exultant class below them
and the dictates of cacogens above them (not to mention Father Inire, wherever he fits
in).
 
All I can think is that it is a wishful title for the future. An Autarch will eventually
be a self-ruler of the people because he/she will eventually house all the people of
the Commonwealth within his/her consciousness. (that's the goal, obviously it fell far
short of completion; as I see it, just another sham game piece in the cosmic manipulation
of Severian).

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 01:31:20 +0000

On 9/27/2010 7:18 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
> *From:* Jane Delawney <mailto:jane_delawney at sky.com>
>
>     predecessor. Ymar, it is quite clear, did not perform the alzabo
>     ritual upon his predecessor Typhon. There's no question about this;
>     it simply didn't happen. How do we know for sure? Well - when Sev
>     finds Typhon's dessicated and then resurrected body, it has two
>     heads, and they are both intact. Nobody has taken an oyster-knife to
>     Typhon's skull; nor to Piaton's for that matter.
>
> We're probably not meant to think too deeply about the implications of
> the Vodalus method, which seems to work quite well even though no brain
> need be ingested. Nobody mentions it, but shouldn't it be possible to
> obtain the memories of the living in the same fashion, by cutting away
> and eating some less essential tissue (something the size of a finger
> joint is apparently enough). It would be useful for conducting
> interrogations, if nothing else...

I was speculating aloud on that 2-3 months back. The only reason I can 
think of that Vodalus doesn't do both people from the wreck is that he 
anticipates having to give one up to the Ascians but doesn't know which 
one, and doesn't think the injured one would survive being "sampled" in 
this way.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 01:36:00 +0000

On 9/27/2010 7:21 AM, Gerry Quinn wrote:
>> coming across other memories along the way, and he is able to
>> attribute them to various sorts of people that he mentions include
>> children and peasant wives and scholars. He apparently comes across
>> some memories that seem to be older than those of Ymar - any memory of
>> utterly uncarved mountains, for instance, and this is from his
>> perspective in URTH, after being in the confidence of Inire the
>> analeptic supplier for a decade.
>

It's the "oldest pictures" (photographs seem not to have been 
reintroduced into the Commonwealth, possibly due to the lack of silver) 
that would serve to verify that a hypothetical memory of utterly 
uncarved mountains comes from before Typhon's reign. This still wouldn't 
be the Age of Myth, which by definition would have left no readily 
verifiable artifacts.

I'm not citing a specific memory of exceptional age, because Sev doesn't 
record the distinguishable content of any, but he does mention the 
quantity of disordered and "strange" memories that are accessible to be 
searched through.  He does mention knowledge of previous donors coming 
up unbidden on occasion, so there are certain comprehensible memories 
there still, and his supposition that they extend back into the Age of 
Myth implies that sometime he remembers things that can't be placed in 
any historical era on record, as well as some that might match the times 
of the earliest successors of Ymar, ao that some memories that have no 
particular historical context could be those of Ymar himself.

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Tue, 28 Sep 2010 01:52:39 +0000

> ancient rulers as autarchs, before pointing out that strictly speaking

This doesn't distinguish them from Typhon, who owes fealty to no one else.