{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5758", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5758, "subject": "Vodalus and Severian", "messages": 8, "voices": 5, "first": "2010-09-27T12:12:20+00:00", "last": "2010-09-29T13:07:46+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-27T12:12:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vodalus and Severian", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney: By ingesting the memories of what is probably quite a random \nselection of individuals ('Not another tribade ...!'), " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI tend to view things a different way. I see the \"tribade\" comment as a \nsignificance pointer; a way of saying to us that the last victim of a \nVodalus dinner was an important person whose personal details matter.\n \nWe are only introduced to two such victims, Thecla and the female corpse in the\nfirst chapter of Shadow. I don't see much in the text to warrant speculation on\nothers. Moreover, Thecla's body seems to have been kept on ice for quite some time,\nwaiting for a special moment. Access to Severian would seem to the the obvious\nreason this moment is special. We are told the purpose of the feast is to bind Vodalus' \nfollowers more tightly to him. But perhaps the reasons go deeper.\n \nThere is a chain of physical appearance clues (dark hair, oval face, olive skin, pale\ngown) that might associate the female corpse to Severian's mother, Catherine. Perhaps\nthe real reason for choice of victims is not only to create loyalty bonds. Perhaps there\nis the hidden purpose of collecting the lives and memories of people who are important \nto Severian.\n \nIn the beginning, Severian says he might have a presentiment of his future. Juturna shares\nthis. I suspect others do too (including her dad/husband). Vodalus may not be the one making \nthe choices of victims. Given that he works for the Ascians, there is the suggestion that he \nserves a greater, unseen master (or masters). Vodalus first brings up the chess analogy but \nhe seems to be a pawn, himself.\n \nFather Inire's letter suggests he is quite happy to replace Vodalus with Agia. Presumably,\nshe makes a better antagonist to Severian than Vodalus. I suspect Inire was actually rather \nactively involved in his death by worm, and his replacement. (mirrors, mirrors)\n \nMaster Ash suggests that the Ascians are making their massive offensive, despite being ill-\nequipped and manned because of some sudden new unidentified development. I think it is the \nimminent presence of Severian on the battlefield.\n \nTzadkiel says the whole purpose of the life of the old Autarch was so he could be tested and\nfail and be castrated, just so that Severian could have those memories during his testing. \nAppian (?) is not so pleased to learn this.\n \nMy point is that I don't think there is much of random anything happening in this story.\nIt is all a play. A set piece designed to manipulate a certain player. It is all about \nSeverian, all the time. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA1325F.7040902@sky.com>", "from": { "name": "Jane Delawney", "address": "jane_delawney at sky.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T00:10:07+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vodalus and Severian continued", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 27/09/10 13:12, Lee Berman wrote:\n\nWe are only introduced to two such victims, Thecla and the female corpse in the\nfirst chapter of Shadow. I don't see much in the text to warrant speculation on\nothers." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "'k, granted. However V's followers don't seem to find anything too \nabnormal in being invited to such a dinner (and there was obviously a \ntribade in there somewhere!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Moreover, Thecla's body seems to have been kept on ice for quite some time,\nwaiting for a special moment. Access to Severian would seem to the the obvious\nreason this moment is special. We are told the purpose of the feast is to bind Vodalus'\nfollowers more tightly to him." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suspect so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " But perhaps the reasons go deeper.\n\nThere is a chain of physical appearance clues (dark hair, oval face, olive skin, pale\ngown) that might associate the female corpse to Severian's mother, Catherine." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This is the description from ch. 1 of 'Shadow': 'They had the corpse of \na woman. Her hair, which had been dark, was in some disorder now about \nher livid face; she wore a long gown of some pale fabric.'\n\nThat's it. No oval face or olive skin. But hey, two out of four is .. \naverage.\n\nBTW 'Livid' - means that her face appears engorged with blood - as in \npostmortem lividity. Given the level of speculation around here, I'm not \nthat reluctant to suggest that this implies she may have been buried \n/face down/.\n\nWitches are supposed to have been interred in this way in some cultures; \nalso suspected vampires." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": " Perhaps\nthe real reason for choice of victims is not only to create loyalty bonds. Perhaps there\nis the hidden purpose of collecting the lives and memories of people who are important\nto Severian." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yup, agreed, it would be quite unlike our GW not to have an alternate \nagenda - not so much hidden, as left for the reader to work out - here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Master Ash suggests that the Ascians are making their massive offensive, despite being ill-\nequipped and manned because of some sudden new unidentified development. I think it is the\nimminent presence of Severian on the battlefield.\n " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Rather (and if I'd time, I'd take this to a new thread, since it clearly \nis one) I suspect the implication is that this is the last chance the \nAscians can have for victory, since if they don't conquer now, Severian \nwill inevitably become Autarch and since he is the New Sun, the New \nSun's enemies will therefore be doomed to fail.\n\nThe Hierodules and their masters live 'backwards'; they remember our \nfuture. Therefore, they KNOW that Sev is the New Sun; they don't simply \nsuspect, they know, because they've lived his future before they first \nmeet him. Erebus, Abaia, Scylla et al, and their human allies, have \npresumably gotten wind of this, and know that they have to stop Severian \nbefore he takes on his destiny, or not stop him at all.\n\njd" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T01:52:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vodalus and Severian continued", "in_reply_to": "<4CA1325F.7040902@sky.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney: 'They had the corpse of a woman. Her hair, which had been dark, \nwas in some disorder now about her livid face; she wore a long gown of some pale fabric.'\nThat's it. No oval face or olive skin. But hey, two out of four is .. average." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It is the maid playing Holy Katharine who has the oval face and darker complexion. There \nare some missing connectors. In Dr. Talos' play there is a character named Contessa Carina \n(form of Catherine) who has three maids with beheaded saint names.\n \nEventually, I think even Gene Wolfe had to admit to himself that this wasn't enough of a clue. \nSo he gave us a detailed peek at one final connector in UotNS, the woman on the Path Of Air who\nmatches the Contessa Carina. This woman has all the characteristics combined, dark hair, oval \nface, olive complexion and pale gown. I find the attention Wolfe gives to her in this scene,\nwithout any other explanation, to be compelling and insistent that we connect her to other \nparts of the story. why would this woman's face tear at Severian's heart?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "BTW 'Livid' - means that her face appears engorged with blood - as in postmortem lividity. Given \nthe level of speculation around here, I'm not that reluctant to suggest that this implies she \nmay have been buried /face down/. Witches are supposed to have been interred in this way in some \ncultures; also suspected vampires." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAs Catherine may have been a Pelerine, I would not discount anything that might imply she had\nwitchy connections. I think there is something connecting these two groups of women.\n \nMy own theory is that the lividity come from her manner of death- Allowin's Necklace, a device \nwhich gets an otherwise rather inexplicably detailed description. Ancillary to this is the sentence \ngiven to that other dark haired, oval faced ex-Pelerine Cyriaca- strangulation. Her crime was \nadultery and given the Ouen episode, I consider that may have been the crime of Severian's mother \nalso.\n \nBut I am happy to incorporate witchiness also, especially given the missing Severa. Thanks for that \nJane!\n \nThere is some vampiric imagery associated with a character or two in BotNS but we'll save that for\nsome other thread. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T14:03:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vodalus and Severian continued", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jane Delawney wrote:\n\nOn 27/09/10 13:12, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "We are only introduced to two such victims, Thecla and the female corpse in the\nfirst chapter of Shadow. I don't see much in the text to warrant speculation on\nothers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "'k, granted. However V's followers don't seem to find anything too\nabnormal in being invited to such a dinner (and there was obviously a\ntribade in there somewhere!)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd always assumed that Hildegrin was visiting the Garden of Endless\nSleep, while Severian and Agia were there, to look for another such\nvictim, suggesting it was quite a regular thing." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T14:14:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vodalus and Severian continued", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd assumed the same thing. It is when we learn Hildegrin is the badger after all, right?\n\nWas he there to get Dorcas?\n\nAlso, the old boatman seems to imply Hildegrin may be a regular there.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Sep 28, 2010, at 10:03 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nI'd always assumed that Hildegrin was visiting the Garden of Endless\nSleep, while Severian and Agia were there, to look for another such\nvictim, suggesting it was quite a regular thing." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T14:28:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vodalus and Severian continued", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason- I'd always assumed that Hildegrin was visiting the Garden of Endless\nSleep, while Severian and Agia were there, to look for another such victim, \nsuggesting it was quite a regular thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIt might. I think my thoughts have drifted in that direction. However it might also\nsupport my current hypothesis that Vodalus and his followers are being directed to \ningest dead people who are important to Severian. Obviously the lake contains such a \none.\n \nHildegrin and the old boatman know each other. It may be that their purpose is more \nintertwined than is apparent from their casual mention of each other. I say this \nconsidering that the boatman bears a resemblance to Father Inire, Hildegrin is \nassociated with the Cumaean and she and Inire are associated, similar beings.\n \nThe lake scene with the boatman might also connect to the Stone Town scene. There\nwe find the Cumaean, Merryn and again Hildegrin fishing for and hoping to restore\nlife to someone important to Severian. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CA20DA5.1080409@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-09-28T15:45:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vodalus and Severian continued", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 9/28/2010 9:03 AM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nJane Delawney wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On 27/09/10 13:12, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "We are only introduced to two such victims, Thecla and the female corpse in the\nfirst chapter of Shadow. I don't see much in the text to warrant speculation on\nothers." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "'k, granted. However V's followers don't seem to find anything too\nabnormal in being invited to such a dinner (and there was obviously a\ntribade in there somewhere!)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd always assumed that Hildegrin was visiting the Garden of Endless\nSleep, while Severian and Agia were there, to look for another such\nvictim, suggesting it was quite a regular thing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not to look for a victim/donor, thought it might be a place to stash a \nrecently deceased known sympathizer, in a pickle-barrel sort of way.\n\nI'm a bit skeptical that the bog would keep the memories intact for very \nlong, but if they survive being roasted they ought to survive the bog. \nThough there is the possibility that in Thecla's case, the cooked meat \nis really pork spiked with her uncooked \"retentive tissues\" to maximize \nviability and minimize the gaminess that could gather even in a snow \ncave after so long." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-09-29T13:07:46+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Vodalus and Severian continued", "in_reply_to": "<4CA20DA5.1080409@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote:\nI'd always assumed that Hildegrin was visiting the Garden of Endless\nSleep, while Severian and Agia were there, to look for another such\nvictim, suggesting it was quite a regular thing." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Not to look for a victim/donor, thought it might be a place to stash a\nrecently deceased known sympathizer, in a pickle-barrel sort of way." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That's another possibility, certainly. It still supports the thought\nit's a quite a regular thing. anyway." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'm a bit skeptical that the bog would keep the memories intact for very\nlong, but if they survive being roasted they ought to survive the bog." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'd assume they would be taken out fairly quickly, just as those\nretrieved from the necropolis are, I think, 'resurrected' soon after\ntheir burial. This, by the way, would rather suggest he's _not_\nlooking for Dorcas." } ] } ] }