{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5766", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5766, "subject": "Hyacinth and Seawrack", "messages": 9, "voices": 5, "first": "2010-10-21T11:30:29+00:00", "last": "2010-10-22T18:14:52+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-10-21T11:30:29+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth and Seawrack", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've been reading Return to the Whorl and had a question. I think it is\nfor James Wynn. Wasn't it you who suggested some sort of connection or\nshared identity between Hyacinth and Seawrack? I tried looking/searching \nbut couldn't find the post.\n \nI thought of it because I ran across a section where Horn is describing\nto Vadsig how he and Maytera Mint and Patera Silk and Seawrack overthrew\nthe Ayuntamiento.\n \nIf the inclusion of Seawrack was an auctorial error I'd find that pretty \ninteresting, as I am more interested than most in the autobiographical\naspects of Gene Wolfe's work.\n \nMore likely it is an example of unreliable narrator error I suppose. As \nsuch my first interpretation would be that the error occurs due to \nrelationship parallels. Horn's paramour is Seawrack. Pas/Typhon's paramour is \nKypris. Silk and Hyacinth, possessing aspects of the gods, provide the bridge \nbetween these two pairs, thus Seawrack and Hyacinth are confused.\n \nAm I missing some some real world (within the story) way that Seawrack and \nHyacinth can be connected in the way that Silk and Horn are connected? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CC03CFA.5020008@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-10-21T13:15:38+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth and Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (21-10-2010 12:30):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've been reading Return to the Whorl and had a question. I think it is\nfor James Wynn. Wasn't it you who suggested some sort of connection or\nshared identity between Hyacinth and Seawrack? I tried looking/searching\nbut couldn't find the post." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Iirc he said Hyacinth was dream-dead-Fava." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I thought of it because I ran across a section where Horn is describing\nto Vadsig how he and Maytera Mint and Patera Silk and Seawrack overthrew\nthe Ayuntamiento.\n\nIf the inclusion of Seawrack was an auctorial error (...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Short of severe confusion, which I fortunately isn't the case, I find that \nsimply impossible." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CC05F75.9090201@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-10-21T15:42:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth and Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nI've been reading Return to the Whorl and had a question. I think it is\nfor James Wynn. Wasn't it you who suggested some sort of connection or\nshared identity between Hyacinth and Seawrack? I tried looking/searching\nbut couldn't find the post.\n\nI thought of it because I ran across a section where Horn is describing\nto Vadsig how he and Maytera Mint and Patera Silk and Seawrack overthrew\nthe Ayuntamiento.\n\nIf the inclusion of Seawrack was an auctorial error I'd find that pretty\ninteresting, as I am more interested than most in the autobiographical\naspects of Gene Wolfe's work.\n\nMore likely it is an example of unreliable narrator error I suppose. As\nsuch my first interpretation would be that the error occurs due to\nrelationship parallels. Horn's paramour is Seawrack. Pas/Typhon's paramour is\nKypris. Silk and Hyacinth, possessing aspects of the gods, provide the bridge\nbetween these two pairs, thus Seawrack and Hyacinth are confused.\n\nAm I missing some some real world (within the story) way that Seawrack and\nHyacinth can be connected in the way that Silk and Horn are connected?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm pretty sure that is not the only time the Rajan confuses Hy with \nSeawrack. I couldn't tell you exactly where. I thought there was a time \nwhere he talks about Hyacinth singing.\n\n+u16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CC06841.2000100@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-10-21T16:20:17+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth and Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "<4CC05F75.9090201@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (21-10-2010 16:42):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman-\nAm I missing some some real world (within the story) way that Seawrack\nand Hyacinth can be connected in the way that Silk and Horn are connected?\n\nI'm pretty sure that is not the only time the Rajan confuses Hy with\nSeawrack. I couldn't tell you exactly where. I thought there was a time\nwhere he talks about Hyacinth singing." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "There is (but don't ask me where). Hyacinth is the woman Silk ever found \nmore attractive, and Seawrack is the woman Horn ever found more attractive. \nIt's only natural that the Silk in Horn would sometimes make the latter mix \nup the names of the two. My grandmother quite often refers to my grandfather \n(which I've never met) as 'your father' while talking to me about old \nrecollections and doesn't notice it at all, she's clearly uncounsciously \npositioning me at the son (which she never even had) level in those situations." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-10-22T02:10:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth and Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "<4CC06841.2000100@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Antonio P. Marques: Hyacinth is the woman Silk ever found \nmore attractive, and Seawrack is the woman Horn ever found more attractive. \nIt's only natural that the Silk in Horn would sometimes make the latter mix \nup the names of the two." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, if the mistake is repeated then I suppose this is the most parsimonious\nanswer. Would have been nice (for me anyway) if there was more to it. For some\nreason Wolfe is uncharacteristically heavy handed in his demonstration that Silk \nand Horn have been merged. This could just be a part of that. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-10-22T02:12:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth and Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\n\nI'm pretty sure that is not the only time the Rajan confuses Hy with\nSeawrack. I couldn't tell you exactly where. I thought there was a\ntime where he talks about Hyacinth singing.\n\n\nThere is, in IGJ, p. 121. \"Here I stopped to listen, for I heard\nHyacinth singing to her waves.\"\n\nI believe this is more about the Narrator's identity confusion than\nany real identification of Hyacinth with Seawrack. He exchanges one\nlove for another because he is really two men. A similar mistake is\nwhen he addresses one of his sons as \"Horn\" in the last book.\n\nThe following quote shows how his memories of the women are doubled:\nIGJ p. 170: \"I am going to pray and go to bed and (if I cannot sleep)\ndaydream about the first time I lay with Seawrack on the clumsy little\nsloop I built with my own hands, and loved so much, and of lying with\nHyacinth, too, in Ermine's on the night of our marriage.\"" } ] }, { "message_id": "<001a01cb7212$8a7b3820$bcce4a0c@rclackey>", "from": { "name": "Roy C. Lackey", "address": "rclackey at stic.net" }, "date": "2010-10-22T17:56:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth and Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dave Tallman quoted and wrote:\nJames Wynn wrote:\n\nI'm pretty sure that is not the only time the Rajan confuses Hy with\nSeawrack. I couldn't tell you exactly where. I thought there was a\ntime where he talks about Hyacinth singing.\n\n\nThere is, in IGJ, p. 121. \"Here I stopped to listen, for I heard\nHyacinth singing to her waves.\"\n\nI believe this is more about the Narrator's identity confusion than\nany real identification of Hyacinth with Seawrack. He exchanges one\nlove for another because he is really two men. A similar mistake is\nwhen he addresses one of his sons as \"Horn\" in the last book." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I agree. IIRC, there are also other places where Silkhorn confuses one wife\nwith the other, when he writes Hyacinth when he means Nettle. He also\nconsciously substitutes Hyacinth's name for Nettle's at least once, when he\nspoke to Chandi: \"As for me, I did not weep; but I was at least as homesick\nas she, and when she was calmer I told her about you, Nettle, calling you\nHyacinth.\" (OBW, 222)\n\nHe also mentions Seawrack's singing on the same page.\n\n-Roy" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CC1D28C.5070409@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-10-22T18:06:04+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth and Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "<001a01cb7212$8a7b3820$bcce4a0c@rclackey>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Dave Tallman-\nI believe this is more about the Narrator's identity confusion than\nany real identification of Hyacinth with Seawrack. He exchanges one\nlove for another because he is really two men. A similar mistake is\nwhen he addresses one of his sons as \"Horn\" in the last book." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I agree. IIRC, there are also other places where Silkhorn confuses one wife\nwith the other, when he writes Hyacinth when he means Nettle. He also\nconsciously substitutes Hyacinth's name for Nettle's at least once, when he\nspoke to Chandi: \"As for me, I did not weep; but I was at least as homesick\nas she, and when she was calmer I told her about you, Nettle, calling you\nHyacinth.\" (OBW, 222)\n\nHe also mentions Seawrack's singing on the same page." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hmmm... perhaps. But the fact that he is aware, in this event at least, \nthat he is making these transpositions gives me pause.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dave Tallman", "address": "davetallman at msn.com" }, "date": "2010-10-22T18:14:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Hyacinth and Seawrack", "in_reply_to": "<4CC1D28C.5070409@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn wrote:\nHmmm... perhaps. But the fact that he is aware, in this event at least,\nthat he is making these transpositions gives me pause.\n\nIn the case of Chandi, I think he makes a deliberate choice. He knows she\nthinks he's Silk, and she probably knows Silk's wife's name is Hyacinth. So\nto avoid confusion and mistrust, he chooses to speak of Nettle this way." } ] } ] }