Subject: (urth) Concrete

From: Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:42:48 +0000

Howdy listers, lurkers, and layabouts,

As I've mentioned previously, I'm working on some illustrations related to New Sun...
I have another question for you scientifically "hard" minded readers.

Concrete.  Is there some reason that I've not yet thought of that would prevent concrete casting from being a viable technology on Urth in Ymar's or Severian's time  It strikes me that concrete casting is a method that humanity would not lose, and I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't be used on Urth.  

This came to mind when reading the Innovation comic, where the Oubliette is pictured with medieval stone masonry.  The thought of a spaceport built on walls of rounded stone just seems wrong to me.  No, the citadel would have tons and tons of concrete along with it's unsmeltable metal.

Am I wrong?

~Son of Witz

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From: David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 20:55:33 +0000

I agree that concrete is a tough technology to lose. The Romans had it. 
If anything, modern improvements have only produced weaker, 
shorter-lived but quicker-setting concrete.

I also agree that the spaceport would have included a flat concrete pad 
at one time. Whether it still exists in Severian's time is another 
question. But surely there wouldn't be any stones UNDER the rocket ships 
that form the towers of the Citadel.

IMHO.

On 10/29/2010 4:42 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote:
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From: Gerry Quinn <gerryq at indigo.ie>
Date: Fri, 29 Oct 2010 22:04:24 +0000

From: <Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
> Concrete.  Is there some reason that I've not yet thought of that would 
> prevent concrete casting from being a viable technology on Urth in Ymar's 
> or Severian's time  It strikes me that concrete casting is a method that 
> humanity would not lose, and I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't 
> be used on Urth.
>
> This came to mind when reading the Innovation comic, where the Oubliette 
> is pictured with medieval stone masonry.  The thought of a spaceport built 
> on walls of rounded stone just seems wrong to me.  No, the citadel would 
> have tons and tons of concrete along with it's unsmeltable metal.

I agree.  Unless some futuristic technology makes it really easy to cut 
perfectly-shaped stone blocks!

(I always liked how in World of Warcraft the blasted fortress of Auchindown 
is seen to be constructed of reinforced concrete - it was a slight surprise 
in a fantasy world but I thought it worked very well.)

- Gerry Quinn

---

From: Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org <sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 03:49:26 +0000

Thanks. I done forgot about them Romans having cement. 

On Oct 29, 2010, at 1:55 PM, David Stockhoff <dstockhoff at verizon.net> wrote:

> I agree that concrete is a tough technology to lose. The Romans had it. If anything, modern improvements have only produced weaker, shorter-lived but quicker-setting concrete.
> 
> I also agree that the spaceport would have included a flat concrete pad at one time. Whether it still exists in Severian's time is another question. But surely there wouldn't be any stones UNDER the rocket ships that form the towers of the Citadel.
> 
> IMHO.
>

---

From: Jeff Wilson <jwilson at io.com>
Date: Sat, 30 Oct 2010 06:43:15 +0000

On 10/29/2010 3:42 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote:
> Concrete.  Is there some reason that I've not yet thought of that
> would prevent concrete casting from being a viable technology on Urth
> in Ymar's or Severian's time  It strikes me that concrete casting is
> a method that humanity would not lose, and I can't think of any
> reason why it wouldn't be used on Urth.

Speaking as a playtester for GURPS LOW-TECH (coming to a gamestore near 
you!): concrete is ancient; many Roman buildings include concrete and 
mortar construction, but it is very time consuming and labor intensive 
to make. Once motorized mixing is available (there are any number of 
still-moving machines on Urth), the chief expense becomes transporting 
the component earths from where the may be found (a problem with the 
roads closed in the Commonwealth) *if* they may be found after chiliads 
of construction.

I think the oubliette can be explained by having the ship-towers 
grounded in a field that is the remains of the old port, and the Citadel 
was made by putting up the unsmeltable walls and the inside covered over 
and built on like San Francisco after the 1906 quake. The oubliette and 
tunnels beneath it may not be literally and directly beneath the tower, 
but to one side, extending down from the lowest entrance hatch.

If the ships landed in pits, then there might be only a couple feet of 
crumbling concrete rubble in most places of the former ground level, 
easy enough to break through with the remaining bits of tech in the 
Commonwealth if it wasn't cleared away at the time the unsmeltable slabs 
were put up.

-- 
Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com
Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana
< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >