{ "export": { "source": "https://urth.darkrealm.vip/thread/urth/5769", "note": "Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright in each message remains with the person who wrote it. Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact.", "addresses": "obscured as 'user at host'" }, "archive": "urth", "thread": { "id": 5769, "subject": "Wind god", "messages": 64, "voices": 11, "first": "2010-11-03T13:42:36+00:00", "last": "2010-11-09T14:28:24+00:00" }, "messages": [ { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-03T13:42:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": null, "reply_link": null, "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Still pecking through RttW and finding interesting revelations. \nOne thing I find striking are the numerous mentions of Typhon/Pas as\na god of winds. Why are we hit over the head so hard with this when the\nconnection wasn't addressed at all in the previous five books of the Long/Short\nSun series? (unless we count the hot, drought winds plaguing the Whorl during\nSilk's ascendence).\n \nI wonder if Wolfe might have treated RttW a bit like UotNS: some extra help on \nunderstanding some of the more impenetrable mysteries of the previous books. I \ncan see more support for James' Typhon-as-Spring Wind theory here. Plus more\nfull support for seeing BotNS Typhon as mythological (Greek and Egyptian) allegory \nnot just a guy with multiple heads. I guess it might also support my idea that Pas' \nname is derived from wind demon Pazuzu rather than just Pan. \n \nMoreover in current research, I'm finding more religious connection between Pan and \ndemons than I was previously aware of. Others more versed in religion might have been \nvery familiar but I'm finding some interesting associations in regard to the full Sun\nseries. More on that later. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<978BDEAD3F944F6483F100490D39C283@jill>", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-11-03T15:51:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"Lee Berman\" \n\nStill pecking through RttW and finding interesting revelations.\nOne thing I find striking are the numerous mentions of Typhon/Pas as\na god of winds. Why are we hit over the head so hard with this when the\nconnection wasn't addressed at all in the previous five books of the \nLong/Short\nSun series? (unless we count the hot, drought winds plaguing the Whorl \nduring\nSilk's ascendence)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I read the Short Sun trilogy recently. I noticed Pas was associated with a \nwhirlwind once or twice, but that's all I remember - certainly not being hit \nhard with it. And a whirlwind is different from a typhoon or sirocca.\n\nI don't really see why the association would be important anyway, though. \nWhat, if anything,does it tell us about him? I can see how a whirlwind or \nwindstorm might reflect his rapid conquest of Urth - but we already know \nabout that!\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD19A3D.9020806@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-03T17:22:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<978BDEAD3F944F6483F100490D39C283@jill>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman-\nStill pecking through RttW and finding interesting revelations.\nOne thing I find striking are the numerous mentions of Typhon/Pas as\na god of winds. Why are we hit over the head so hard with this when the\nconnection wasn't addressed at all in the previous five books of the \nLong/Short\nSun series? (unless we count the hot, drought winds plaguing the \nWhorl during\nSilk's ascendence)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn -\nI read the Short Sun trilogy recently. I noticed Pas was associated \nwith a whirlwind once or twice, but that's all I remember - certainly \nnot being hit hard with it. And a whirlwind is different from a \ntyphoon or sirocca. I don't really see why the association would be \nimportant anyway, though. What, if anything,does it tell us about \nhim? I can see how a whirlwind or windstorm might reflect his rapid \nconquest of Urth - but we already know about that!" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It TELLS us nothing in itself. The _why_ questions are the point. If \nTyphon is Spring Wind and/or the Student, what is the significance of \nhis sons? I suspect that an epiphany in a Wolfe story always starts with \nsomeone saying \"Yes, it is clear that such-and-such happened, buy WHY \ndid it happen?\" \"Why did he do it?\" \"Why did Wolfe have the character \nmention this here?\"*** For me, wondering why is always the start. \nSometimes you come up with answer.\n\n*** Such as, \"Why does Silk spend two full and separate paragraphs \npondering why he called Blood \"son\"? Or \"Why does Silk ponder that he \nand Sand must be brothers in some meta-universal sense because of the \ntenuous similarities in their names?\"\n\n+u16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-04T11:43:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD19A3D.9020806@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn -\nI read the Short Sun trilogy recently. I noticed Pas was associated \nwith a whirlwind once or twice, but that's all I remember - certainly \nnot being hit hard with it. And a whirlwind is different from a \ntyphoon or sirocca. I don't really see why the association would be \nimportant anyway, though. What, if anything,does it tell us about \nhim?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI'd have to check but I think there are at least 3 remarks on the wind stuff. I\nagree with James that the very fact of the mention of wind here has \nmeaning. Starting with Sword of the Lictor, Wolfe has had 10 books in which to deal\nwith this Typhon/Pas character. Why, finally, in the tenth is wind mentioned?\n \nPerhaps it is just a late attempt to add a bit more decoration and color to a\nboring character? If that rings true for you then it is a good hypothesis. For\nme it seems almost impossible for that to be Wolfe's only intention with this.\n \nIt seems like a pointer that shouldn't be ignored. To James it points to Spring Wind\nTo me, mythological Typhon and his cognates. The mythological connection does suggest \nthings to me about the character. First that he is connected to the Mandragora. Next \nthat mythological Typhon's status as a Titan might relate to a current Olympian \nstatus of the \"gods\" on Urth. A shame there seem to be 17 instead of 12 but hey, can't\nbe TOO obvious. Some other stuff too.\n \nI was more skeptical of James' spring Wind theory at first but I can see the slim but\nstill supporting evidence. Moreover it seems to bolster the theme of exaggerated legend-\nreligion that Wolfe seems to address. We are explicitly shown that Severian's modest\naccomplishments as Concilliator (a few healings, a resurrection, maybe some geological\nmanipulation) are exaggerated into a society altering cult-figure. Not hard to see\nhow the same process could take Urth's Typhon and turn him into a hundred-headed man-\ndragon. Or a benign demiurge on the Whorl. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Jack Smith", "address": "jack.smith.1946 at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-04T11:53:41+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon is boring? Why do you think so?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 7:43 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Gerry Quinn -\nI read the Short Sun trilogy recently. I noticed Pas was associated\nwith a whirlwind once or twice, but that's all I remember - certainly\nnot being hit hard with it. And a whirlwind is different from a\ntyphoon or sirocca. I don't really see why the association would be\nimportant anyway, though. What, if anything,does it tell us about\nhim?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I'd have to check but I think there are at least 3 remarks on the wind\nstuff. I\nagree with James that the very fact of the mention of wind here has\nmeaning. Starting with Sword of the Lictor, Wolfe has had 10 books in which\nto deal\nwith this Typhon/Pas character. Why, finally, in the tenth is wind\nmentioned?\n\nPerhaps it is just a late attempt to add a bit more decoration and color to\na\nboring character? If that rings true for you then it is a good hypothesis.\nFor\nme it seems almost impossible for that to be Wolfe's only intention with\nthis.\n\nIt seems like a pointer that shouldn't be ignored. To James it points to\nSpring Wind\nTo me, mythological Typhon and his cognates. The mythological connection\ndoes suggest\nthings to me about the character. First that he is connected to the\nMandragora. Next\nthat mythological Typhon's status as a Titan might relate to a current\nOlympian\nstatus of the \"gods\" on Urth. A shame there seem to be 17 instead of 12 but\nhey, can't\nbe TOO obvious. Some other stuff too.\n\nI was more skeptical of James' spring Wind theory at first but I can see\nthe slim but\nstill supporting evidence. Moreover it seems to bolster the theme of\nexaggerated legend-\nreligion that Wolfe seems to address. We are explicitly shown that\nSeverian's modest\naccomplishments as Concilliator (a few healings, a resurrection, maybe some\ngeological\nmanipulation) are exaggerated into a society altering cult-figure. Not hard\nto see\nhow the same process could take Urth's Typhon and turn him into a\nhundred-headed man-\ndragon. Or a benign demiurge on the Whorl.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-04T17:22:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jack Smith: Typhon is boring? Why do you think so?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't think that. But if Wolfe thought he was boring he mind have added a \nlittle wind to spruce him up a bit. I don't think that either. But perhaps\nsome do or are just content to eschew finding meaning to the wind reference.\nI was just trying to be open to all interpretations." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- And a whirlwind is different from a typhoon or sirocca." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAgreed and I appreciate this observation. (I don't find the typhoon \nreference so relevant, myself). Learned that scirocco is the Italian word and\nghibli is the Arabic word for those searing hot desert winds.\n \nYour mentioning whirlwind was poking at some vague memories and had to check:\nYep, Jahweh of the Old Testament appears as a whirlwind a number of times, \nnotably to Ezekiel, Elijah and Job. Maybe the pillar of cloud and pillar\nof fire during the Red Sea crossing also?\n \nFits in nicely with sort of a GUT that is currently sort of congealing for me\nlately. Will post some ideas when ready. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD2ED8D.80108@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-04T17:29:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote (04-11-2010 17:22):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(I don't find the typhoon reference so relevant, myself)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "As the one casting dount on the etymological connection between typhon and\ntyphoon, I should say once again that I don't think the lack of a real\nconnection would in any way prevent its use.\nOr could it be a red herring, seeing as the names are just so similar?" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T00:30:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind God", "in_reply_to": "<4CD2ED8D.80108@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\n We are explicitly shown that Severian's modest" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "accomplishments as Concilliator (a few healings, a resurrection, maybe some geological\nmanipulation) are exaggerated into a society altering cult-figure." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not sure of this. According to Dorcas's account of the Conciliator\nhe used to disappear and reappear, suggesting that Severian's trip to\nTyphon's time is not the sole source of the legend. This may mean\neither that there have been other, as yet unrecounted, appearances of\nSeverian, or that the Conciliator is a composite figure made up of\nvarious people, of whom Jesus is, perhaps, the first, and Severian the\nlast." } ] }, { "message_id": "<5DAE462A-B466-477F-93BE-CF8C06821D7E@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-11-05T05:29:36+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind God", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I like this. It adds to the idea that the Tomb Builder Severian (sounds like an action figure) is out meddling around beyond the text.\n\n~Mike" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 4, 2010, at 5:30 PM, Andrew Mason wrote:\nLee Berman wrote:\n\nWe are explicitly shown that Severian's modest\naccomplishments as Concilliator (a few healings, a resurrection, maybe some geological\nmanipulation) are exaggerated into a society altering cult-figure.\n\nI'm not sure of this. According to Dorcas's account of the Conciliator\nhe used to disappear and reappear, suggesting that Severian's trip to\nTyphon's time is not the sole source of the legend. This may mean\neither that there have been other, as yet unrecounted, appearances of\nSeverian, or that the Conciliator is a composite figure made up of\nvarious people, of whom Jesus is, perhaps, the first, and Severian the\nlast.\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T12:57:15+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<5DAE462A-B466-477F-93BE-CF8C06821D7E@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason- According to Dorcas's account of the Conciliator he used to disappear and reappear, \nsuggesting that Severian's trip to Typhon's time is not the sole source of the legend." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son o'Witz- I like this. It adds to the idea that the Tomb Builder Severian is out meddling \naround beyond the text." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAgreed, Andrew brings up an interesting idea that I hadn't thought much about before. Severian does \nsee a couple guys who look like himself in the crowd at the inn during the Zama incident.\n \nMoreover, Typhon himself describes the Conciliator as a \"wonderworker\" to Severian. This would seem\nto be a sarcastic comment given that the demonstration to Typhon we see of The Conciliator's power\nconsists of him jabbing a dagger into a tabletop. But if Severian had doppelgangers who continued to \nappear in Typhon's realm healing and purifying lust and whatnot, perhaps Typhon really did accept that \nthe Conciliator had superhuman powers, by the time he died on his couch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "or that the Conciliator is a composite figure made up of various people, of whom Jesus is, perhaps, the \nfirst, and Severian the last." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThis doesn't work for me, especially since my understanding of the sub-textual story of BotNS requires that\nthis world/universe never had a Jesus. But this touches on many previous debates on whether Urth is Earth, \nwhich is past which is future etc.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD40375.5030902@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T13:15:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2010 7:57 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason- According to Dorcas's account of the Conciliator he used to disappear and reappear,\nsuggesting that Severian's trip to Typhon's time is not the sole source of the legend." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Son o'Witz- I like this. It adds to the idea that the Tomb Builder Severian is out meddling\naround beyond the text." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Agreed, Andrew brings up an interesting idea that I hadn't thought much about before. Severian does\nsee a couple guys who look like himself in the crowd at the inn during the Zama incident.\n\nMoreover, Typhon himself describes the Conciliator as a \"wonderworker\" to Severian. This would seem\nto be a sarcastic comment given that the demonstration to Typhon we see of The Conciliator's power\nconsists of him jabbing a dagger into a tabletop." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee, this an example of the kind of selective reading that pisses off \npeople. In the second sentence following Typhon calling the Conciliator \na wonder-worker, he gives a perfectly straightforward reason for calling \nhim that: \"[...]and since diseases and deformities seemed to flee from \nhim, I ordered him brought to me.\" The disappearances mentioned my \nDorcas would seem to indicate that his departure into the Corridors was \nfurther attested by the soldiers who witnessed it after he left Typhon's \npresence. It's not as if Sev had a chance to fail to produce miracles on \ncommand, when Typhon himself had him sent away after the knife incident." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<2102886A-243D-430A-BA40-F157597B1937@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-11-05T14:00:20+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Nov 5, 2010, at 5:57 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nor that the Conciliator is a composite figure made up of various people, of whom Jesus is, perhaps, the \nfirst, and Severian the last." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "This doesn't work for me, especially since my understanding of the sub-textual story of BotNS requires that\nthis world/universe never had a Jesus. But this touches on many previous debates on whether Urth is Earth, \nwhich is past which is future etc." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I REALLY don't want to start the whole debate over about Sev-Christ, really, I don't.\n\n\nBut I just noticed thid great bit in CLAW, Dorcas says, \" To me you're Life, and you're a young man named Severian, and if you wanted to put on different clothes and become a carpenter or a fisherman, no one could stop you.\"\n \n\"Carpenter\" \"Fisherman\" hmmm......\n\nJust pointing that bit out, not trying to prove anyone wrong.\n\n~witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-11-05T15:34:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<2102886A-243D-430A-BA40-F157597B1937@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " From: Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org \n On Nov 5, 2010, at 5:57 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\n\n\n or that the Conciliator is a composite figure made up of various people, of whom Jesus is, perhaps, the \n\n first, and Severian the last.\n\n\n This doesn't work for me, especially since my understanding of the sub-textual story of BotNS requires that\n this world/universe never had a Jesus. But this touches on many previous debates on whether Urth is Earth, \n which is past which is future etc.\n\n \n I REALLY don't want to start the whole debate over about Sev-Christ, really, I don't.\n\n But I just noticed thid great bit in CLAW, Dorcas says, \" To me you're Life, and you're a young man named Severian, and if you wanted to put on different clothes and become a carpenter or a fisherman, no one could stop you.\"\n\n \"Carpenter\" \"Fisherman\" hmmm......\n\n\n Just pointing that bit out, not trying to prove anyone wrong.\n\nAlso, in BotLS, Silk has a vision of Jesus on Palm Sunday. Quetzal mentions the 'forgotten' god Ah-lah, and tells a version of the Adam and Eve story. For me, these are pretty good evidence that the prehistory of Urth, even if it was not exactly our Earth (as Wolfe has suggested), was rather similar in certain respects. Having recently read BotSS, I noticed Horn/Silk invents a version of the Eucharist to worship the Outsider, whom he identifies as the god of the Neighbours.\n\nOf course one can make various alternative hypotheses. The hero on Palm Sunday might have been a previous iteration of Jesus. The Outsider might have vouchsafed Silk a vision from a different universe. \n\nMy feeling is that while Wolfe is certainly a complex and subtle author, his works are not best understood as puzzle boxes with a hidden primary meaning. \n\nAlso, if I were made Pope for a day I would declare that overthinking theological issues is a very great sin ;-)\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T16:52:16+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Lee, this an example of the kind of selective reading that pisses off \npeople. In the second sentence following Typhon calling the Conciliator a wonder-worker, \nhe gives a perfectly straightforward reason for calling him that: \"[...]and since diseases \nand deformities seemed to flee from him, I ordered him brought to me.\" The disappearances \nmentioned my Dorcas would seem to indicate that his departure into the Corridors was further \nattested by the soldiers who witnessed it after he left Typhon's presence." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI don't know if you can speak for \"people\" but if I've pissed you off, I apologize, though I'm \nnot sure why what I wrote upsets you. Or did you mean you were pissed off at Andrew, whose idea\nI was going along with?\n \nAnyway, as I read the passage, Typhon was facing a major medical problem at the time. He called\nfor the alleged wonderworker to be brought before him in hopes he could fix what his own doctors\ncould not fix (Piaton's stubbornness in reliquishing full control of his body). Instead of helping,\nSeverian presented a far more immediate threat to Typhon's life and a massive security breach which\nhad to be dealt with immediately. Typhon's orders would have been something like \"get this crazy \nquack out of here now and hang the person responsible from a pole!\". \n \nSo for me I could see the need for further convincing, as Andrew suggests, via multiple Concilliators\nappearing and disappearing through the rest of Typhon's reign. Or maybe Typhon died thinking the \nConcilliator was a quack. Dunno. But I really don't have a dog in this fight. My own interpretation \nof the multiple Severian/5 coffins stuff is a bit different in emphasis (more autobiographical allusion \nthan plot driven)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Son o'Witz- \"Carpenter\" \"Fisherman\" hmmm......" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Gerry Quinn- Silk has a vision of Jesus on Palm Sunday. Quetzal mentions the 'forgotten' god Ah-lah, \nand tells a version of the Adam and Eve story. Horn/Silk invents a version of the Eucharist to worship \nthe Outsider, whom he identifies as the god of the Neighbours" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThese seem clearly to be important clues. I think the Neighbors are important in that they can dream-travel\nto other places; perhaps other times? Perhaps other universes?\n \nAs I see it (meaning how I think Wolfe sees it), we live in a world in which Jahweh and Jesus and Allah etc. \nare real and giant gods and monsters and vampires and such are mystic legends. Urth/Whorl/Briah is a place \nin which giant gods and monsters and vampires are real and Jahweh, Jesus and Allah are mystic legends. The \nlegends echo back and forth between future and past or maybe between universes. Perhaps which is which or \nwhich is correct is not really important. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<1c7a7817449d26dbf9f66f408d6dd2bd.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T17:32:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Lee, this an example of the kind of selective reading that\npisses off\npeople. In the second sentence following Typhon calling the Conciliator a\nwonder-worker,\nhe gives a perfectly straightforward reason for calling him that:\n\"[...]and since diseases\nand deformities seemed to flee from him, I ordered him brought to me.\"\nThe disappearances\nmentioned my Dorcas would seem to indicate that his departure into the\nCorridors was further\nattested by the soldiers who witnessed it after he left Typhon's\npresence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't know if you can speak for \"people\" but if I've pissed you off, I\napologize, though I'm\nnot sure why what I wrote upsets you. Or did you mean you were pissed off\nat Andrew, whose idea\nI was going along with?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I won't unilaterally re-involve people by naming names, but if you truly\ndon't recall the considerable irritation other listpeople have displayed\nat your methods of justifying previous \"GUT\" notions of yours, that would\nexplain a great deal. Unfortunately, it would also be a pathological\nsymptom, like the hypoxia from my sleep apnea that makes me just dumber\nthan dirt on some days, and never as sharp as I could be or even was 2-3\nyears ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anyway, as I read the passage, Typhon was facing a major medical problem\nat the time. He called\nfor the alleged wonderworker to be brought before him in hopes he could\nfix what his own doctors\ncould not fix (Piaton's stubbornness in reliquishing full control of his\nbody). Instead of helping,\nSeverian presented a far more immediate threat to Typhon's life and a\nmassive security breach which\nhad to be dealt with immediately. Typhon's orders would have been\nsomething like \"get this crazy\nquack out of here now and hang the person responsible from a pole!\".\n\nSo for me I could see the need for further convincing, as Andrew suggests,\nvia multiple Concilliators\nappearing and disappearing through the rest of Typhon's reign. Or maybe\nTyphon died thinking the\nConcilliator was a quack. Dunno." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But Typhon is making the \"wonder-worker\" speech in SWORD, when he knows\nthere's something special about the Conciliator because he senses that the\nolder fellow he met before his \"drying\" is connected to the younger but\notherwise identical-looking fellow he meets after, both from common sense\nand from his psychic gifts." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD448C1.8030002@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T18:11:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<1c7a7817449d26dbf9f66f408d6dd2bd.squirrel@webmail.prismnet.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson wrote (05-11-2010 17:32):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson- Lee, this an example of the kind of selective reading\nthat pisses off people. In the second sentence following Typhon\ncalling the Conciliator a wonder-worker, he gives a perfectly\nstraightforward reason for calling him that: \"[...]and since diseases\nand deformities seemed to flee from him, I ordered him brought to\nme.\" The disappearances mentioned my Dorcas would seem to indicate\nthat his departure into the Corridors was further attested by the\nsoldiers who witnessed it after he left Typhon's presence." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I don't know if you can speak for \"people\" but if I've pissed you off,\nI apologize, though I'm not sure why what I wrote upsets you. Or did\nyou mean you were pissed off at Andrew, whose idea I was going along\nwith?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I won't unilaterally re-involve people by naming names, but if you truly\n don't recall the considerable irritation other listpeople have displayed\n at your methods of justifying previous \"GUT\" notions of yours, that\nwould explain a great deal." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Given that Lee customarily says something to the effect of 'sorry if I'm\nunintentionally doing that (bending/falsifying the evidence)' and then does\nit again at the next opportunity, I'm inclined to think it's a memory\nproblem. Otherwise his professing unintentionality would be dishonest, which\nI find hard to believe.\n\n(Unintentional errors are quite possible given the source material, but not \nto the point of obstinating, and as time goes by one should become more alert.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Unfortunately, it would also be a pathological symptom, like the hypoxia\nfrom my sleep apnea that makes me just dumber than dirt on some days, and\nnever as sharp as I could be or even was 2-3 years ago." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Is there nothing that can be done about it?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD44DB5.20103@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T18:32:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD448C1.8030002@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Lee Berman-\nI don't know if you can speak for \"people\" but if I've pissed you off,\nI apologize, though I'm not sure why what I wrote upsets you. Or did\nyou mean you were pissed off at Andrew, whose idea I was going along\nwith?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson-\nI won't unilaterally re-involve people by naming names, but if you truly\n don't recall the considerable irritation other listpeople have \ndisplayed\n at your methods of justifying previous \"GUT\" notions of yours, that\nwould explain a great deal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques -\nGiven that Lee customarily says something to the effect of 'sorry if I'm\nunintentionally doing that (bending/falsifying the evidence)' and then \ndoes\nit again at the next opportunity, I'm inclined to think it's a memory\nproblem. Otherwise his professing unintentionality would be dishonest, \nwhich\nI find hard to believe. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Anybody who has posted to this list for any amount of time is guilty of \ntaking a phrase as expansive when it has a more narrow reading in \ncontext. So Pot Meet Kettle.\n\nAdditionally, sometimes Wolfe has his unreliable narrator offer an \nexplanation that is probably untrue. Or is only true in a very narrow \nsense, when the Author is pointing to much more. In that case, it is the \nperson who declares his devotion to Reading Straight From the Text in \nContext who is being dense. In fact, I've been irritated at people who \nwere being overly contentious about Thus Says The Text when, in fact, I \nsuspected they cared more about winning a debate than coming to \nunderstand what is going on in the story. So there's that.\n\nBut this is the way it is. Wolfe's stories are more than a Free Country. \nThey are more than the Wild West. The are the Land that Time Forgot. He \nmade them that way deliberately, I'm afraid. So one should beware of \nascribing malicious motives to people who proffer theories that you \nthink are thinly supported. Most theories are thinly supported. Even the \nright ones. If an explanation is not compelling, just let it go.\n\nu_16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T19:05:48+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind God", "in_reply_to": "<4CD44DB5.20103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Um.\n\nJesus is of course not essential to my theory - the Conciliator might\nbe a composite figure whether or not Jesus was one of those who\ncontributed to the composite.\n\nAlso relevant to this is something said, I think, by Agia which\nsuggests that the Conciliator lived thirty thousand years ago. That\nmight be just because Wolfe hadn't worked out Typhon's dates when he\nwrote it, but it could also point to the idea of multiple appearances.\n\nOn the Jesus question: I'm not sure it matters for this purpose\nwhether Urth is Earth, since if it is not, it nevertheless has a past\n_very_ like the actual history of Earth, including Fair Rosamund,\nMarlowe, Mary Shelley, Lewis Carroll, etc. I find it hard to imagine\nthat a world could contain all this without containing Jesus, whose\nabsence must surely have knocked history off-course quite a bit.\n\nThere are quite a few references to the Old Testament in the cycle,\nincluding a direct quotation (Joseph's dream) in _Urth_. There is\nnothing explicit from the New Testament as far as I can remember; the\nnearest is a reference in Dr Talos's play to raising sons from stones,\nbut that might alternatively be connected with Deucalion.\n\nThere does seem to have been something very like the Catholic Church\n(and, on the basis of things said last time this came up, the Orthodox\nChurch as well) in the past of Urth - again, it is hard to imagine\nthat without Jesus.\n\nHowever, whatever is the case in _New Sun_, it seems to me that _Long\nSun_, which I am just reading now, is much more explicit. The\nevidence Gerry Quinn has brought up is relevant, but the clearest\nthing seems to me to be the story about the Outsider, 'through a man\nhe had posseessed and enlightened', whipping the sellers of\nsacrificial animals. This is not theologically accurate, of course -\nyou wouldn't expect that of the Chrasmological Writings - but it seems\nclear enough what story it is referring to." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD4590B.5030104@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T19:20:43+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD44DB5.20103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (05-11-2010 18:32):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "Lee Berman- I don't know if you can speak for \"people\" but if I've\npissed you off, I apologize, though I'm not sure why what I wrote\nupsets you. Or did you mean you were pissed off at Andrew, whose\nidea I was going along with?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Jeff Wilson- I won't unilaterally re-involve people by naming names,\nbut if you truly don't recall the considerable irritation other\nlistpeople have displayed at your methods of justifying previous\n\"GUT\" notions of yours, that would explain a great deal." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques - Given that Lee customarily says something to\nthe effect of 'sorry if I'm unintentionally doing that\n(bending/falsifying the evidence)' and then does it again at the next\nopportunity, I'm inclined to think it's a memory problem. Otherwise his\nprofessing unintentionality would be dishonest, which I find hard to\nbelieve." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Anybody who has posted to this list for any amount of time is guilty of\ntaking a phrase as expansive when it has a more narrow reading in\ncontext." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not, however, of doing it again and again and again." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(...) one should beware of ascribing malicious motives to people who\nproffer theories that you think are thinly supported." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Apples, oranges. Theories don't enter the picture. We're talking about \nfacts. We're talking about a certain 'kind of selective reading'. The kind \nin which you write paragraphs about sentence X, ignoring the relevant data \nin sentence X - 1. Or you make a fuss about why word Y is used in passage Z \nand then it turns out that word Y doesn't appear in passage Z or at all. And \nsome days after it has been pointed out that sentence X - 1 can't be ignored \nand word Y doesn't occur, you make recourse to the conclusions based on the \nfalse premises in order to support some other point. We've seen that happen \na lot. And generally people find it irritating when their interlocutors keep \nadducing arguments that have previously been established as false (if word Y \ndoesn't occur, then the argument based on its occurrence is wrong and that's \nall she wrote - or do you wish me to start calling you John and keep talking \nabout the time you spent in Nepal and how they found your red hair unusual \nthere?)\n\nAfter all, we've never seen proof that the current President of the USA is a \nnatural born citizen." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD4598C.2090501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T19:22:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind God", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Andrew Mason wrote (05-11-2010 19:05):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On the Jesus question: I'm not sure it matters for this purpose whether\nUrth is Earth, since if it is not, it nevertheless has a past _very_ like\nthe actual history of Earth, including Fair Rosamund, Marlowe, Mary\nShelley, Lewis Carroll, etc. I find it hard to imagine that a world could\ncontain all this without containing Jesus, whose absence must surely have\nknocked history off-course quite a bit." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Of course - and take Holy Katharine and 'Judastree', where is the latter\nsupoosed to have come from?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD461F2.5040004@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T19:58:42+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD4590B.5030104@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques-\nApples, oranges. Theories don't enter the picture. We're talking about \nfacts. We're talking about a certain 'kind of selective reading'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "EVERYBODY selectively reads a Wolfe novel, if they've read him long. \nAnyone who says he has not is selectively recalling. (I would not say \nsuch people are bending or misrepresenting the facts, since that \nstatement implies it is done intentionally.) Furthermore, \"people\" \nregularly, and irritatingly, declare things \"proved\" or proved false \nthat have not in fact been proven. Shall we denounce those as well for \nunscrupulous methods? Why should we? Who the Niflheim cares? Let them \nsay it.\n\nI don't find Lee's GUT compelling, but I don't think he's engaged in a \nCouncil on Foreign Relations plot to seduce me with it. It's generally \nvery difficult to keep all of the Sun Cycle in your head at all times. \nAnd even if you could, no will ascribe the same importance to all its \nparts. And some bits are so useless literally that they *have* to be \npointing at something else--IMO. And I, for one, do not believe all the \nanswers are in the text. I think Wolfe has deliberately left out key \nanswers because he thought them too obvious. I could name a couple of \nconfirmed examples. You have to engage in cognitive leaps sometimes. And \npeople have made false jumps only to land serendipitously on some \nunlooked for fact (such as the \"red monkey\" connections Lee brought up \nearlier --it was Lee right?).\n\nSo people who get irritated should remember that its only literature we \nare discussing here.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD46651.8020107@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T20:17:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD461F2.5040004@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (05-11-2010 19:58):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(...) \"people\" regularly, and irritatingly, declare things \"proved\" or\nproved false that have not in fact been proven." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Everyone's entitled to their opinions. Not to their facts. If the word\n'green' isn't there, it isn't there, and repeatedly discussing why it *is*\nthere is inconsiderate." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I don't find Lee's GUT compelling, but (...)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I'm not criticising his GUT (I'm all for everyone developing their own \ncontradictory and wild ideas - honest - what I'm not for is people making up \ntheir facts and not even acknowledging that).\n\nExcept of course for what made the acronym pop up in the first place: 1) \nit's a scheme that tramples evidence and as such tells us more about its \nproponent than about the books, 2) it posits that the books follow a scheme, \nwhich is unwarranted (and detracting, in my opinion)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(...) people have made false jumps only to land serendipitously on some\nunlooked for fact" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Could happen, but it's not a method." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(such as the \"red monkey\" connections Lee brought up earlier --it was\nLee right?)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Hard to tell when few respect the mingboggingly simple way of attributing\nand replying to messages, but I think so, spurred by Ryan." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD469BF.7080409@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T20:31:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD46651.8020107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques-\nEveryone's entitled to their opinions. Not to their facts. If the word\n'green' isn't there, it isn't there, and repeatedly discussing why it \n*is*\nthere is inconsiderate. " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Only a aspergers-debilitated geek would be interested in policing what \nis a \"fact\" from what is an alternate reading from what is an error \nbased on another posters erroneous reading popularly bandied about. It's \nfine to correct someone on the facts when you think you have noted an \nerror. But if you go the step further and ascribe malicious motives or \ncategorize the person's perceived error as \"this is what you always do\", \nI'm going to read you as a jerk.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T20:37:32+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD469BF.7080409@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "James Wynn- Anybody who has posted to this list for any amount of time is guilty of \ntaking a phrase as expansive when it has a more narrow reading in context. So Pot Meet Kettle." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nSeems so to me also. I don't see how my mention of the possibly sarcastic \"wonder-worker\" is \nrendered an example of maliciously selective reading because I didn't include \"..and since diseases \nand deformities seemed to flee from him\". Quite a large pile of poo unleashed over two quite similar\nphrases. It does seem like the goal was personal attack rather than advancing understanding of\nthe text. \"Pathological hypoxia due to sleep apnea\"? I admit that's a fresh new line of attack I\nhaven't seen used before. But anyway, yep, surely all are guilty of selective reading at times." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason- According to Dorcas's account of the Conciliator, he used to disappear and reappear" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- The disappearances mentioned my Dorcas would seem to indicate that his departure into \nthe Corridors was further attested by the soldiers who witnessed it." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nAndrew mentions disappearing *and* reappearing. It would be the reappearances that support the idea\nof out-of-text re-emergings of doppelganger Conciliators. Mustn't read one word and skip the other.\n \nLet's be fair to Andrew's ideas. They don't deserve piles of poo dumped on them even if I, personally, do." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson- But Typhon is making the \"wonder-worker\" speech in SWORD, when he knows\nthere's something special about the Conciliator because he senses that the older fellow \nhe met before his \"drying\" is connected to the younger but otherwise identical-looking fellow \nhe meets after, both from common sense and from his psychic gifts." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "The SWORD encounter itself does not provide enough information to make this conclusion. The scene implies \nthat Typhon connects Severian to the Conciliator because of the pouch around his neck, containing the Claw \nof the Conciliator. Only later do we learn Severian is the Conciliator, which might allow us to infer\nthat Typhon recognizes Severian personally. Still, we might wonder why Typhon treats Severian as a complete \nstranger when they first meet. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes", "address": "danldo at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T20:43:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Lee Berman wrote:\nAndrew mentions disappearing *and* reappearing. It would be the reappearances that support the idea\nof out-of-text re-emergings of doppelganger Conciliators. Mustn't read one word and skip the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I've always taken it to imply that Severian made other trips to Typhon's era.\n\nOf course, it could also be just a case of the tale growing in the\ntelling, that there was just the one disappearance but a thousand\nyears have embellished the matter somewhat." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The SWORD encounter itself does not provide enough information to make this conclusion. The scene implies\nthat Typhon connects Severian to the Conciliator because of the pouch around his neck, containing the Claw\nof the Conciliator. ?Only later do we learn Severian is the Conciliator, ?which might allow us to infer\nthat Typhon recognizes Severian personally. Still, we might wonder why Typhon treats Severian as a complete\nstranger when they first meet." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps because he does not yet have the scar and limp that mark him later?" }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Dan'l Danehy-Oakes" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD46D57.6070900@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T20:47:19+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD469BF.7080409@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (05-11-2010 20:31):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques-\nEveryone's entitled to their opinions. Not to their facts. If the word\n'green' isn't there, it isn't there, and repeatedly discussing why it\n*is* there is inconsiderate.\n\nOnly a aspergers-debilitated geek would be interested in policing what\nis a \"fact\" from what is an alternate reading from what is an error\nbased on another posters erroneous reading popularly bandied about. It's\nfine to correct someone on the facts when you think you have noted an\nerror. But if you go the step further and ascribe malicious motives or\ncategorize the person's perceived error as \"this is what you always do\",\nI'm going to read you as a jerk." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But that's a social shortcoming on your part, blaming the messenger for the \nmessage.\n\nIf the behaviour is repetitive, it's repetitive. We have now a fresh example \nof 'Affirming P was an isolated tiny thing I don't think anyone should be \noffended by it'. In a few days we'll have 'Since P, then Q'.\n\nIgnoring that and making the protest sound like thought police seems (seems) \ndisingenuous." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T20:54:11+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD46D57.6070900@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew Mason- the clearest thing seems to me to be the story about the Outsider, \n'through a man he had posseessed and enlightened', whipping the sellers of sacrificial \nanimals. This is not theologically accurate, of course -you wouldn't expect that of the \nChrasmological Writings - but it seems clear enough what story it is referring to." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nI would like to be more direct and say, \"it seems clear enough what person it is referring\nto.\n \nThen I'd want to reverse it, as I think Gene Wolfe is inviting us to do, and think about a\nstory of a hundred headed man-dragon breathing hot fiery winds and ask what person it is\nreferring to. The same for the story of a giant, shapeshifting, bisexual god in the clouds \nnamed Zeus. And the same for a Melanesian eel named Abaia...\n \nWhen you say \"this is not theologically accurate, of course\", do you mean because the story\nimplies Jesus was a man who was possessed by The Outsider god, rather than having been born\na deity or holy Savior? Possession does seem to imply more of demonic presence, yes?\n \n(though some sects of Christianity do take great stock in human beings becoming possessed by\nthe Holy Spirit, writhing around and speaking in tongues; some others might argue that these \nare misled devil worshipping cults...) \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T20:58:52+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD46651.8020107@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Nov 5, 2010, at 4:17 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\n(such as the \"red monkey\" connections Lee brought up earlier --it was\nLee right?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Hard to tell when few respect the mingboggingly simple way of attributing\nand replying to messages, but I think so, spurred by Ryan." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My original post to the group was asking what to make of the reoccurance of primates in BotNS, as well as attributes to various characters resembling apes, and whether or not they may serve as clues for various appearances of Father Inire, and whether Inire may himself be a shape-shifter (sparked by the clue of Zak in UotNS).\n\nJust wanted to be clear on the original intent of my post before I got dragged into any GUT mud-slinging.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD4731B.3080300@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T21:11:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My original post to the group was asking what to make of the reoccurance of primates in BotNS, as well as attributes to various characters resembling apes, and whether or not they may serve as clues for various appearances of Father Inire, and whether Inire may himself be a shape-shifter (sparked by the clue of Zak in UotNS). Just wanted to be clear on the original intent of my post before I got dragged into any GUT mud-slinging.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Sorry Ryan. That was just me distorting and misrepresenting facts as I'm \nnihilistically inclined to do.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD47405.8050307@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T21:15:49+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD46D57.6070900@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn-\nBut if you go the step further and ascribe malicious motives or\ncategorize the person's perceived error as \"this is what you always do\",\nI'm going to read you as a jerk." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques-\nBut that's a social shortcoming on your part, blaming the messenger \nfor the message. If the behaviour is repetitive, it's repetitive. We \nhave now a fresh example of 'Affirming P was an isolated tiny thing I \ndon't think anyone should be offended by it'. In a few days we'll have \n'Since P, then Q'. Ignoring that and making the protest sound like \nthought police seems (seems) disingenuous." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Not thought police...smugly anal.\n\nFor the rest, I guess you already have my response.\n\n~u+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T21:28:21+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD47405.8050307@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ryan Dunn- Just wanted to be clear on the original intent of my post before I got dragged \ninto any GUT mud-slinging" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nHeh, yep, no blame for GUTS or monkeys should be direct to you Ryan. I insist that all such \nhurled simian poop should be thrown my way.\n \nI'm not sure what James is referring to with the \"red monkey\" thing. There is the uakari monkey\nhttp://www.primates.com/monkeys/images/uakari.jpg mentioned in BotNS which could be said to\nresemble Father Inire or vice versa. Borski gets credit for noticing long before I did. \n \nFor me there was a recent nice serendipity in my research on possible origins of Father Inire's \nname. The verb is associated with an epithet of the god Faunus, called Inuus. This guy was known \nfor his perverse lechery and that was interesting enough but then I found Inuus was also an archaic\ngenus name for a certain group of monkeys.\n \nSo I saw a loose connection. This has been somewhat tightened recently by some references I found\nin RttW which further connect Sun series gods with monkeys and Roman epithets. Could be all \ncoincidence but the connections are piling up and the absence of other explanations for these \nreferences are staring to make me take it more seriously as a deliberate intention of Wolfe.\nI don't like being cryptic so I'll try to get a new thread started on this as soon as I can, \nfor those who are interested.\n \n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T22:01:50+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind God", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\n But if Severian had doppelgangers who continued to" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "appear in Typhon's realm healing and purifying lust and whatnot, perhaps Typhon really did accept that\nthe Conciliator had superhuman powers, by the time he died on his couch." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just to clarify: what I had in mind was reappearances at long\nintervals (thus reconciling the 'thirty thousand years' thing with\nTyphon's dates - though that might alos be explained through a change\nof plan on Wolfe's part). More than one appearance in Typhon's reign\nis also possible, though, I guess. (But I had an idea that Typhon died\nshortly after Severian's meeting with him - does this have a\nfoundation?)" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T22:06:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "When you say \"this is not theologically accurate, of course\", do you mean because the story\nimplies Jesus was a man who was possessed by The Outsider god, rather than having been born\na deity or holy Savior?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Possession does seem to imply more of demonic presence, yes?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That I'm not so sure about. The idea of a god taking over a prophet\nand speaking through them, which seems to be roughly what possession\nmeans here, has some respectable antecedents. I meant inaccurate\nbecause it falls short of what Christians believe about Jesus, rather\nthan because it connotes anything bad." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD487FF.4060501@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T22:41:03+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Lee Berman-\nWhen you say \"this is not theologically accurate, of course\", do you mean because the story\nimplies Jesus was a man who was possessed by The Outsider god, rather than having been born\na deity or holy Savior?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Are we talking about what Silk says in the first chapter of Nightside?\n\n\"He would have to be firm with them, extremely firm. Remind them that \nthe Outsider was known to esteem them last among men already--that \naccording to the Writings he had once (having possessed and enlightened \na fortunate man) beaten them severely in person.\"\n\nThe concept of the Eternal Logos is one that is defined by Christian \ntheologians rather than understood. This is about as clear an \nunderstanding as Silk could have realistically been expected to \ncomprehend at that point in the story.\n\nAs I've said before, I can see little narrative value in differentiating \nbetween Severian existing in our future or in a previous cycle. I could \nconstruct a self-consistent model in which they are different --\n\n--one where the coming and sacrifice of the Christ works backwards and \nforwards into adjacent cycles so others are enlightened by the story and \nwhere there is a Catholic Church without a Christ for the same reason \ngrooms wear black in \"There Are Doors\" --\n\n--but it all comes to the same thing from the point of view of the \ncharacters and there's nothing like it explained in the story.\n\n+u16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-05T23:37:31+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD487FF.4060501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Dan'l D. Oakes- I've always taken it to imply that Severian made other trips to Typhon's era." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nIn the past I think I considered that possible but questionable. In light of the current discussion \nand in reviewing so many other BotNS mysteries where mere suggestions become the only likely answer \nI now think it is probably the correct answer." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "we might wonder why Typhon treats Severian as a complete stranger when they first meet." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Perhaps because he does not yet have the scar and limp that mark him later?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nYes, I think I've always thought more along those lines. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4B188C5F-F492-4FAF-8828-4DCF8A39F731@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-11-06T04:39:22+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD44DB5.20103@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 5, 2010, at 11:32 AM, James Wynn wrote:\nAdditionally, sometimes Wolfe has his unreliable narrator offer an explanation that is probably untrue. Or is only true in a very narrow sense, when the Author is pointing to much more." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think this is the rule rather than the exception with Severian.\nI think that his musings on his altered course in time are spectacularly \"wrong,\" but they are right in pointing out that his life HAS been shaped by forces aware or of the future." } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Andrew Mason", "address": "andrew.mason53 at googlemail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-06T21:55:45+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind God", "in_reply_to": "<4B188C5F-F492-4FAF-8828-4DCF8A39F731@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Sonofwitz wrote:\n\nOn Nov 5, 2010, at 11:32 AM, James Wynn wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Additionally, sometimes Wolfe has his unreliable narrator offer an explanation that is probably untrue. Or is only true in a very narrow sense, when the Author is pointing to much more." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think this is the rule rather than the exception with Severian.\nI think that his musings on his altered course in time are spectacularly \"wrong,\" but they are right in pointing out that his life HAS been shaped by forces aware or of the future." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I sympathise with this. Severian, when he comes up with his 'first\nSeverian' theory, believes that the first Severian became Apu-Punchau,\nas well as the person buried in the mausoleum; but we know that in\nfact it is the very Severian we know (though not in the same body) who\nbecame Apu-Punchau, which must cast doubt on whether he is right about\nthe rest.\n\nI also think people are often too ready to accept Severian's\nJonas-Miles theory. His main evidence for this is Miles' use of the\n'as the X said' locution; and he works out an elaborate theory to\nexplain this in terms of early robots' need to reassure people. But it\nlater turns out that this manner of speaking is common among sailors.\nPerhaps Miles' parents were sailors, and that's all the explanation it\nneeds." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "------------------------------\n\n_______________________________________________" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-07T01:04:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2010/11/05, ?s 20:58, Ryan Dunn \nescreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 5, 2010, at 4:17 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "(such as the \"red monkey\" connections Lee brought up earlier --it \nwas\nLee right?)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Hard to tell when few respect the mingboggingly simple way of \nattributing\nand replying to messages, but I think so, spurred by Ryan." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My original post to the group was asking what to make of the \nreoccurance of primates in BotNS, as well as attributes to various \ncharacters resembling apes, and whether or not they may serve as \nclues for various appearances of Father Inire, and whether Inire may \nhimself be a shape-shifter (sparked by the clue of Zak in UotNS)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Then i must have missed it. I thought you'd merely asked for ideas on \nRudesind's relationship to Inire and Lee had elaborated the monkey \nbusiness. " } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-07T01:25:26+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind God", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2010/11/05, ?s 22:01, Andrew Mason \n escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Lee Berman wrote:\n\nBut if Severian had doppelgangers who continued to\nappear in Typhon's realm healing and purifying lust and whatnot, \nperhaps Typhon really did accept that\nthe Conciliator had superhuman powers, by the time he died on his \ncouch." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Just to clarify: what I had in mind was reappearances at long\nintervals (thus reconciling the 'thirty thousand years' thing with\nTyphon's dates - though that might alos be explained through a change\nof plan on Wolfe's part). More than one appearance in Typhon's reign\nis also possible, though, I guess." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I must be missing something. Isn't it generally accepted that Severian \npaid several visits to that time period alone? He at least says he \nlikes to think some of the people who came to help him at the inn were \nhimself - or am I mixing things up?\n\nIf not then I certainly think the Concilliator was active both before \nand at the same time (in various places) as the short sojourn we're \ndescribed. So when he came to Typhon his curriculum was much \nlenghthier than we we presenced. So that Cyrius Howsespelt had plenty \nof time to set his sight on him." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(But I had an idea that Typhon died\nshortly after Severian's meeting with him - does this have a\nfoundation?)" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Just what happened to Typhon is left quite vague. We might say that he \nwas left without followers and so vanished from scene, not unlike \nEurope's pagan gods.\nAs to why, the world was maybe ripe for the taking, and the so-called \ncult of the Concilliator may have done it. \n " } ] }, { "message_id": "<9B7BCAA7-F478-4FAB-A961-C1698AFF0D1A@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "entonio at gmail.com", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-07T01:38:05+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD487FF.4060501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No dia 2010/11/05, ?s 22:41, James Wynn escreveu:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "As I've said before, I can see little narrative value in \ndifferentiating between Severian existing in our future or in a \nprevious cycle. I could construct a self-consistent model in which \nthey are different --\n\n--one where the coming and sacrifice of the Christ works backwards \nand forwards into adjacent cycles so others are enlightened by the \nstory and where there is a Catholic Church without a Christ for the \nsame reason grooms wear black in \"There Are Doors\" --\n\n--but it all comes to the same thing from the point of view of the \ncharacters and there's nothing like it explained in the story." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the possibilities are only 2:\n\n- Severian is Earth's future\n- Severian is in the future of an alternate Earth\n\nI.e. even positing that Severian is a kind of Jesus, he can't be the \nfirst Jesus in his planet, otherwise where do the echoes of \nChristinanity that prrecede him come from? One might say the \nConcilliator visited earlier times, but all the evidence we have shows \nhim closely associated to the end of Typhon's reign - or is there any \nhint that his time there is seen as a second coming?" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD6138C.9020308@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-07T02:48:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD448C1.8030002@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2010 1:11 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nGiven that Lee customarily says something to the effect of 'sorry if I'm\nunintentionally doing that (bending/falsifying the evidence)' and then does\nit again at the next opportunity, I'm inclined to think it's a memory\nproblem. Otherwise his professing unintentionality would be dishonest,\nwhich\nI find hard to believe." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "If that is the case, I regret doing so and would apologize except that \nthreatens to initiate an infinite loop of renewing the forgotten offense \nin the act of apologizing to the truly forgetful person." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "(Unintentional errors are quite possible given the source material, but\nnot to the point of obstinating, and as time goes by one should become\nmore alert.)" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Unfortunately, it would also be a pathological symptom, like the hypoxia\nfrom my sleep apnea that makes me just dumber than dirt on some days, and\nnever as sharp as I could be or even was 2-3 years ago." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Is there nothing that can be done about it?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I could whiff supplemental oxygen, but regulation places the cost of \nmedical oxygen above what I can pay, and I'm not quite ready to endanger \nmy family by making my own at home, or myself by using industrial \ndelivery equipment, and I haven't quite been able to figure out how to \nobtain some of the relatively unregulated aviation oxygen gear. I did \nmanage to score a sanctioned breathing apparatus, at an inflated but \nbearable one-time cost, which probably saved my life at one point, but \nonce I improved past the point of physical danger the process of \nentering sleep while submitting to a face-hugging apparatus became \nalmost as restful as it would have been with the cinematic creature with \nwhich most people here are doubtless familiar." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD615D9.3020409@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-07T02:58:33+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind God", "in_reply_to": "<4CD4598C.2090501@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2010 2:22 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nAndrew Mason wrote (05-11-2010 19:05):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On the Jesus question: I'm not sure it matters for this purpose whether\nUrth is Earth, since if it is not, it nevertheless has a past _very_ like\nthe actual history of Earth, including Fair Rosamund, Marlowe, Mary\nShelley, Lewis Carroll, etc. I find it hard to imagine that a world could\ncontain all this without containing Jesus, whose absence must surely have\nknocked history off-course quite a bit." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course - and take Holy Katharine and 'Judastree', where is the latter\nsupoosed to have come from?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Perhaps Holy Katharine was a martyred adherent of the faith established \nby John the Baptist, whose follower Judas had hung himself in remorse \nfor his part in the Salome affair." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD61C56.20205@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-07T03:26:14+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2010 3:37 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn- Anybody who has posted to this list for any amount of time is guilty of\ntaking a phrase as expansive when it has a more narrow reading in context. So Pot Meet Kettle." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Seems so to me also. I don't see how my mention of the possibly sarcastic \"wonder-worker\" is\nrendered an example of maliciously selective reading because I didn't include \"..and since diseases\nand deformities seemed to flee from him\". Quite a large pile of poo unleashed over two quite similar\nphrases. It does seem like the goal was personal attack rather than advancing understanding of\nthe text. \"Pathological hypoxia due to sleep apnea\"? I admit that's a fresh new line of attack I\nhaven't seen used before. But anyway, yep, surely all are guilty of selective reading at times." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not meant as a diagnosis but an example of cognitive faults that \nmay cause behavior one does not choose and so should not be faulted for.\n\nIt's not wonder-worker that I take issue with, it's your reading of it \nas possibly sarcastic. \"Wonder-worker\" already has a sufficient \nconnotation of mountebank or illusionist to cover the usual cynical \ndoubt of an educated ruler. Indeed, if Severian had performed numerous \nmiracles in Typhon's presence, perhaps *then* it would sarcastic in the \nother direction to ironically label a genuine agent of the divine with \nsuch a commonplace appellation.\n\nThe \"poo\" characterization of my criticism is also worthy of rebuke, but \nI doubt it would useful to do so." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew Mason- According to Dorcas's account of the Conciliator, he used to disappear and reappear" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- The disappearances mentioned my Dorcas would seem to indicate that his departure into\nthe Corridors was further attested by the soldiers who witnessed it." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Andrew mentions disappearing *and* reappearing. It would be the reappearances that support the idea\nof out-of-text re-emergings of doppelganger Conciliators. Mustn't read one word and skip the other." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Disappearing suggests re-appearing, and the confirmation of the one and \nother miracles emboldens tale-tellers to affirm the other. Sev also has \na BOTNS-long habit of appraising people from concealment or stealth \nbefore making his presence emphatically known, constructively appearing \nfrom nowhere. Without some pre-appearance hint to draw witnesses' \nattention to the spot where he is not, such a theatrical entrance is \nindistinguishable from momentary materialization.\n\nAnd by theatrical entrance, I mean that literally given his time with Dr \nTalos' troupe and his training in the art of execution; Sev loves to put \non a show, and the inclusion of even one genuine supernatural effect \nelevates the entire performance, as does the inclusion of mundane but \nunfaked carnage." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson- But Typhon is making the \"wonder-worker\" speech in SWORD, when he knows\nthere's something special about the Conciliator because he senses that the older fellow\nhe met before his \"drying\" is connected to the younger but otherwise identical-looking fellow\nhe meets after, both from common sense and from his psychic gifts." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The SWORD encounter itself does not provide enough information to make this conclusion. The scene implies\nthat Typhon connects Severian to the Conciliator because of the pouch around his neck, containing the Claw\nof the Conciliator. Only later do we learn Severian is the Conciliator, which might allow us to infer\nthat Typhon recognizes Severian personally. Still, we might wonder why Typhon treats Severian as a complete\nstranger when they first meet. \t\t \t \t\t" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Typhon doubtless mastered clever subterfuge decades before his arrival \non Urth." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-11-07T03:42:13+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "On Nov 6, 2010, at 9:04 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nMy original post to the group was asking what to make of the reoccurance of primates in BotNS, as well as attributes to various characters resembling apes, and whether or not they may serve as clues for various appearances of Father Inire, and whether Inire may himself be a shape-shifter (sparked by the clue of Zak in UotNS)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Then i must have missed it. I thought you'd merely asked for ideas on Rudesind's relationship to Inire and Lee had elaborated the monkey business" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Yes and no. The connective tissue I used as part of the inquiry had to do with monkey descriptions. Hence the correlation. It wasn't non sequitur, anyways.\n\nI, however, am a participant in the theory that Severian is being watched throughout BotNS, by some reoccurring characters with a vested interest. Not all or maybe even many agree with me in this.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD63288.9080402@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-07T05:00:56+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/6/2010 10:42 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\n\nOn Nov 6, 2010, at 9:04 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "My original post to the group was asking what to make of the reoccurance of primates in BotNS, as well as attributes to various characters resembling apes, and whether or not they may serve as clues for various appearances of Father Inire, and whether Inire may himself be a shape-shifter (sparked by the clue of Zak in UotNS)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Then i must have missed it. I thought you'd merely asked for ideas on Rudesind's relationship to Inire and Lee had elaborated the monkey business" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Yes and no. The connective tissue I used as part of the inquiry had to do with monkey descriptions. Hence the correlation. It wasn't non sequitur, anyways.\n\nI, however, am a participant in the theory that Severian is being watched throughout BotNS, by some reoccurring characters with a vested interest. Not all or maybe even many agree with me in this." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Theory? Aquastors Malrubius and Triskele are seen watching over Severian \nat least twice, Malrubbius owns up to it in \"person\", and Triskele \ndemonstrates an invisible manifestation shortly after. The Green Man \ndoes likewise. I'd treat it as axiomatic that he is being watched \nconstantly, the only question is by whom and for whom in any given scene." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD640D8.8020907@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-07T06:02:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/5/2010 3:43 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote:\nOn Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Andrew mentions disappearing *and* reappearing. It would be the reappearances that support the idea\nof out-of-text re-emergings of doppelganger Conciliators. Mustn't read one word and skip the other." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I've always taken it to imply that Severian made other trips to Typhon's era." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think it is more likely to be the \"other\" Severians of previous \niterations who may have been the helpers at the inn." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Of course, it could also be just a case of the tale growing in the\ntelling, that there was just the one disappearance but a thousand\nyears have embellished the matter somewhat." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "This probably is intended to be understood to have happened in addition \nto any extra trips that may have been made." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-07T12:00:57+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD640D8.8020907@io.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote:\nGiven that Lee customarily says something to the effect of 'sorry if I'm\nunintentionally doing that (bending/falsifying the evidence)' and then does\nit again at the next opportunity" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: If that is the case, I regret doing so and would apologize except that \nthreatens to initiate an infinite loop of renewing the forgotten offense \nin the act of apologizing to the truly forgetful person." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nWhat I said was: " }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "if I've pissed you off, I apologize, though I'm not sure why what I wrote upsets \nyou. Or did you mean you were pissed off at Andrew, whose idea I was going along with?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "My apology was for causing emotional distress, not for \"bending/falsifying the evidence\"\n \nI think I provide exact quotes from the text to support my ideas at as often as most others. \nIf somebody thinks I need more textual support for one of my ideas I think the polite method \nwould be to request it. I would be happy to oblige on this. To be attacked for for an adjunct\nreply to what are actually Andrew's ideas demonstrates the underlying purpose which seems to \nbe personal not scholarly.\n \nI can undersand why those whom I've caused emotional distress be inclined to be\nimpolite and prefer to make general personal attacks as a means of expressing that distress.\nBut again, I am making a sincere attempt here to improve my understanding of Gene WOlfe's\nwork. I appreciate both positive and negative feedback on my ideas. I prefer a spirit of\npleasantness and cooperation but if some feel the need to express negative feedback in a\ncombative, insulting manner I understand and accept this also.\n \nI apologize if \"poo\" is an offensive term for impolite attacks, due to its fecal reference. \nAmong our primate relatives, throwing it is a common method of showing contempt. Perhaps we \ncan call it an acronym for P(ersonalattacks) O(n) O(nesself)? \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD697F8.5000506@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-07T12:13:44+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/7/2010 6:00 AM, Lee Berman wrote:\nI think I provide exact quotes from the text to support my ideas at as often as most others." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "1) Exact quotation is good, but exact and comprehensive is better.\n2) You have gratuitously mis-quoted me in a recent message, which rather \nundermines your claim to accuracy. It wasn't a gross \nmis-chartacterization of what I said, so I let it pass at the time but \nsince you bring up the matter of fidelity in quotation, I will thank you \nto stop doing that to me." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<8B8BC558-3889-4AFF-B840-E055D51F44F9@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-11-07T13:55:37+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD63288.9080402@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 4, "text": "On Nov 7, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nMy original post to the group was asking what to make of the reoccurance of primates in BotNS, as well as attributes to various characters resembling apes, and whether or not they may serve as clues for various appearances of Father Inire, and whether Inire may himself be a shape-shifter (sparked by the clue of Zak in UotNS)." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "Then i must have missed it. I thought you'd merely asked for ideas on Rudesind's relationship to Inire and Lee had elaborated the monkey business" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Yes and no. The connective tissue I used as part of the inquiry had to do with monkey descriptions. Hence the correlation. It wasn't non sequitur, anyways.\n\nI, however, am a participant in the theory that Severian is being watched throughout BotNS, by some reoccurring characters with a vested interest. Not all or maybe even many agree with me in this." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Theory? Aquastors Malrubius and Triskele are seen watching over Severian at least twice, Malrubbius owns up to it in \"person\", and Triskele demonstrates an invisible manifestation shortly after. The Green Man does likewise. I'd treat it as axiomatic that he is being watched constantly, the only question is by whom and for whom in any given scene." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff,\n\nYou are correct, I should have been more clear. I am a participant in the theory that INIRE is being watched throughout BotNS as well, and I believe the monkeys are a key clue. I know this is not as substantiated as characters like Famulimus, or Malrubius, but there it is.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<527F2466-91B4-41F5-813E-FB9136A59BA1@liftingfaces.com>", "from": { "name": "Ryan Dunn", "address": "ryan at liftingfaces.com" }, "date": "2010-11-07T14:00:59+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<8B8BC558-3889-4AFF-B840-E055D51F44F9@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 7, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nJeff,\n\nYou are correct, I should have been more clear. I am a participant in the theory that INIRE is being watched throughout BotNS as well, and I believe the monkeys are a key clue. I know this is not as substantiated as characters like Famulimus, or Malrubius, but there it is.\n\n...ryan" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Arrrgh. I mean, as you may suspect, that Severian is being watched BY Inire. And probably Severian too, is watching over himself from the corridors of time, and possible inadvertently.\n\nI got that feeling when Severian the Lame revisits the Atrium of Time near the end of CotA.\n\n...ryan" } ] }, { "message_id": "<498AB40C-C947-4800-902C-DD04B7B41C32@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-11-08T00:19:12+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD63288.9080402@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 6, 2010, at 10:00 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nTheory? Aquastors Malrubius and Triskele are seen watching over Severian at least twice, Malrubbius owns up to it in \"person\", and Triskele demonstrates an invisible manifestation shortly after. The Green Man does likewise. I'd treat it as axiomatic that he is being watched constantly, the only question is by whom and for whom in any given scene." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It seems Baldanders must have some knowlege of Severian. It's too coincidental that They cross paths and travel together performing a preview of their future. I guess that the Heirodules, working backwards, have given Baldander's enough info to get him in Severian's path. He must know he's been set up when he see's them in the audience at the House Absolute.\n\nNo?\n\nNow dow Agia/Agilus/Hethor have future info that involved them with Severian?\nI don't get that part.\n\nThe multiple timeline thing doesn't gel much with me. I see this time model as an Amphisbaena that has a foreward and backward perspective. They can see Severian cutting through the time spiral enough to start meddling. The story only happens one way. All the time meddling creates the story as it always was, like any great story of prophesy.\n\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD792D0.9070809@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-08T06:04:00+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<9B7BCAA7-F478-4FAB-A961-C1698AFF0D1A@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/6/2010 8:38 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:\nI think the possibilities are only 2:\n\n- Severian is Earth's future\n- Severian is in the future of an alternate Earth\n\nI.e. even positing that Severian is a kind of Jesus, he can't be the \nfirst Jesus in his planet, otherwise where do the echoes of \nChristinanity that prrecede him come from? One might say the \nConcilliator visited earlier times, but all the evidence we have shows \nhim closely associated to the end of Typhon's reign - or is there any \nhint that his time there is seen as a second coming? " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Those are hardly the only two possibilities.\n\nGiven that Time collapses with each cycle it is entirely irrelevant \nwhether the cycles were \"earlier\" (in meta-Time) or not. For the memory \nto move backwards is no harder (or even different) than for it to move \nforward.\nAs for where do the echoes of Christianity come from, in the post you \nreplied to, I explained how that could easily work using a model Wolfe \nhas constructed in another novel.\n\nBut, it really doesn't matter from the characters' point of view. One \nmight as well say, \"It all happens in the same universe\" and just go \nwith it.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD7B5A3.8020803@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-08T08:32:35+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<8B8BC558-3889-4AFF-B840-E055D51F44F9@liftingfaces.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/7/2010 7:55 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote:\nI am a participant in the theory that INIRE is being watched throughout BotNS as well, and I believe the monkeys are a key clue. I know this is not as substantiated as characters like Famulimus, or Malrubius, but there it is." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "That *is* an interesting idea, that Inire the mirror gazer might have \nhis own train of gazers upon himself. Who could command Urthly primates \nthe way that Hethor commands his creatures or the unseen Yesodis their \naquastors? The Beast Handlers?\n\nI can see why you make the big money for creative directing. \nCongratulations on the \"new\" gig by the way." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD7D647.2050207@io.com>", "from": { "name": "Jeff Wilson", "address": "jwilson at io.com" }, "date": "2010-11-08T10:51:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<498AB40C-C947-4800-902C-DD04B7B41C32@butcherbaker.org>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/7/2010 6:19 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote:\nIt seems Baldanders must have some knowlege of Severian. It's too coincidental that They cross paths and travel together performing a preview of their future. I guess that the Heirodules, working backwards, have given Baldander's enough info to get him in Severian's path. He must know he's been set up when he see's them in the audience at the House Absolute." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "The multiple timeline thing doesn't gel much with me. I see this time model as an Amphisbaena that has a foreward and backward perspective. They can see Severian cutting through the time spiral enough to start meddling. The story only happens one way. All the time meddling creates the story as it always was, like any great story of prophesy." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think you will need to chose one of these two theses. If there is one, \ninevitable timeline, no involvement is required to arrange a meeting \nbetween Sev and Baldy, since there are no other possibilities and the \nagents of the all-seeing Tzadkiel would know it.\n\nBut it may be that there are but two outcomes possible and the meddling \nstrengthens one while weakening the other.\nAfter reviewing Mantiss' bear and cat essay, I am inclined to think that \nthis is the case, the bearish wintry Ragnorok future opposing the feline \nsultry Ushas one.\n\nThis may be the substance behind Lee's observations of time-traveling \narchitecture; it's not sequentially bound with up and down, but \npolarized: the jungle hut is Ushas-y, while Valeria's court is \nRagnorok-y. We can even bundle in the Hypogeums: they represent the \nprotective wolf den which both shelters from the cold but isolates from \nthe renewed prey of the returned spring; they cannot serve as a refuge \nforever and the Epitome must emerge to the final fate of Urth whichever \nit may be." }, { "kind": "sig", "depth": 0, "text": "Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com\nComputational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana\n< http://www.tamut.edu/CIL >" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD7E727.6010707@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-08T12:03:51+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD792D0.9070809@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (08-11-2010 06:04):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On 11/6/2010 8:38 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "I think the possibilities are only 2:\n\n- Severian is Earth's future\n- Severian is in the future of an alternate Earth\n\nI.e. even positing that Severian is a kind of Jesus, he can't be the\nfirst Jesus in his planet, otherwise where do the echoes of\nChristinanity that prrecede him come from? One might say the\nConcilliator visited earlier times, but all the evidence we have shows\nhim closely associated to the end of Typhon's reign - or is there any\nhint that his time there is seen as a second coming?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Those are hardly the only two possibilities.\n\nGiven that Time collapses with each cycle it is entirely irrelevant\nwhether the cycles were \"earlier\" (in meta-Time) or not." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's not irrelevant, it's devoid of meaning. Either way, I meant 'future', \nnot 'meta-future'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "For the memory\nto move backwards is no harder (or even different) than for it to move\nforward.\nAs for where do the echoes of Christianity come from, in the post you\nreplied to, I explained how that could easily work using a model Wolfe\nhas constructed in another novel." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No, you hinted it could follow 'There Are Doors'. That's far from an \nexplanation and I don't see how that's easy here." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD80A74.6080003@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-08T14:34:28+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD7E727.6010707@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "James Wynn-\nGiven that Time collapses with each cycle it is entirely irrelevant\nwhether the cycles were \"earlier\" (in meta-Time) or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "entonio at gmail.com-\nIt's not irrelevant, it's devoid of meaning. Either way, I meant \n'future', not 'meta-future'." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "How is there a \"future\" when Time collapses at the end of a cycle?" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "entonio at gmail.com-\nNo, you hinted it could follow 'There Are Doors'. That's far from an \nexplanation and I don't see how that's easy here." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In TAD alternate universes that are near one another affect each other \njust as if you tune the strings on a guitar to the same note and pluck \none string those next to it will vibrate. So, in TAD, even though it has \nalways been true that men in Laraworld die after having sex, the \nlanguages, customs, and architecture is virtually the same as our world \n(Green's world). The two universes are constantly affecting each \nother--bringing them into accordance. So grooms in Laraworld wear black \nbecause men die after having sex. Grooms in Green's world wear black \nbecause grooms in Laraworld do.\n\nBy the same token, it would not be necessary for there to have been a \nJesus of Nazareth in Severian's cycle for there to be a Catholic Church. \nThey would have a Catholic Church, with similar rituals, because there \nwas one in the cycle just following or just preceding Severian's--just \nas grooms wear black in our world because men die after sex in \nLaraworld. (Since Time is not an issue, the cycles exist simultaneously \nin all practical senses.) And there might have been a Catholic Church \nin one of THOSE other cycles only because there was one in the cycle on \nthe other side. And, although, only the universe with a Christ has a \ntrue rationale for having a Catholic Church, all of the Catholic \nChurches are *actually* honoring the Christ in the original cycle \n(because if A=B and B=C, then A=C).\n\nOkay?\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Gerry Quinn", "address": "gerryq at indigo.ie" }, "date": "2010-11-08T15:12:01+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD80A74.6080003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "From: \"James Wynn\" \nBy the same token, it would not be necessary for there to have been a \nJesus of Nazareth in Severian's cycle for there to be a Catholic Church. \nThey would have a Catholic Church, with similar rituals, because there was \none in the cycle just following or just preceding Severian's--just as \ngrooms wear black in our world because men die after sex in Laraworld. \n(Since Time is not an issue, the cycles exist simultaneously in all \npractical senses.) And there might have been a Catholic Church in one of \nTHOSE other cycles only because there was one in the cycle on the other \nside. And, although, only the universe with a Christ has a true rationale \nfor having a Catholic Church, all of the Catholic Churches are *actually* \nhonoring the Christ in the original cycle (because if A=B and B=C, then \nA=C)." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "But in fact there is no particular evidence that there is a Catholic Church \nin the Solar Cycle, except that a religion that has some similarities to it \nis described as being a parody of some undescribed state religion (this \ninformation comes from an alien vampire who was never on Urth). But there \nare several pieces of evidence for the existence of Jesus.\n\nIn BotNS itself, there is no real evidence for either.\n\n- Gerry Quinn" } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD81C5D.6040404@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "António Pedro Marques", "address": "entonio at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-08T15:50:53+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD80A74.6080003@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "James Wynn wrote (08-11-2010 14:34):" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 3, "text": "James Wynn-\nGiven that Time collapses with each cycle it is entirely irrelevant\nwhether the cycles were \"earlier\" (in meta-Time) or not." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "entonio at gmail.com-\nIt's not irrelevant, it's devoid of meaning. Either way, I meant\n'future', not 'meta-future'." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "How is there a \"future\" when Time collapses at the end of a cycle?" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "Because I never mentioned cross-'cycle' temporality?\n\n\"\n- Severian is Earth's future\n- Severian is in the future of an alternate Earth\n\"\n\nAnd the paragraph below meant to explain why." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "No, you hinted it could follow 'There Are Doors'. That's far from an\nexplanation and I don't see how that's easy here." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "In TAD alternate universes that are near one another affect each other\njust as if you tune the strings on a guitar to the same note and pluck\none string those next to it will vibrate. So, in TAD, even though it has\nalways been true that men in Laraworld die after having sex, the\nlanguages, customs, and architecture is virtually the same as our world\n(Green's world). The two universes are constantly affecting each\nother--bringing them into accordance. So grooms in Laraworld wear black\nbecause men die after having sex. Grooms in Green's world wear black\nbecause grooms in Laraworld do.\n\nBy the same token, it would not be necessary for there to have been a\nJesus of Nazareth in Severian's cycle for there to be a Catholic Church.\nThey would have a Catholic Church, with similar rituals, because there\nwas one in the cycle just following or just preceding Severian's--just\nas grooms wear black in our world because men die after sex in\nLaraworld." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "An unjustified leap. There may be a Catholic Church, with similar rituals, \nbecause there was Jesus figure or something in its place, and that in turn \nbecause there was a real Jesus in a close cycle. It's one thing for grooms \nto wear a given colour for a reason that only comes fulfilled on a parallel \nuniverse, after all choice of colour doesn't condition your future. It's \nquite different to just have an entire church out of nothing. Those aren't \ndummies, they're people. Their church, if it exists, needs some basis. They \ncan't just be going through the motions." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD81D13.1050502@gmail.com>", "from": { "name": "James Wynn", "address": "crushtv at gmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-08T15:53:55+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "But in fact there is no particular evidence that there is a Catholic \nChurch in the Solar Cycle, except that a religion that has some \nsimilarities to it is described as being a parody of some undescribed \nstate religion (this information comes from an alien vampire who was \nnever on Urth). But there are several pieces of evidence for the \nexistence of Jesus. In BotNS itself, there is no real evidence for \neither." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I think the information came from Lemur...but, okay, he had never been \non Urth either. Still, the rituals of the Charter map one-to-one with \nthe Catholic Church. And the Chrasmological Writings contain references \nfrom the Gospels.\n\nAs for evidence in BotNS itself, I offer Andrew and Matthew's analysis:\n\nOn Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Andrew Mason \n> \nwrote:\n\n Also. Severian dreams of a ritual taking place in the Citadel chapel\n at a time before the old sun was darkened, which involves bread, wine\n and a knife - not exactly the Christian eucharist, but something like\n it.\n\n\nMatthew Weber replied-\nIn the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, the (leavened) bread used in Communion \nis cut with a triangular-bladed knife, referred to as the Spear.\n\nu+16b9" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-08T16:47:34+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD81D13.1050502@gmail.com>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Jeff Wilson: This may be the substance behind Lee's observations of time-traveling \narchitecture; it's not sequentially bound with up and down, but polarized: the jungle\nhut is Ushas-y, while Valeria's court is Ragnorok-y." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nMy suggestion was that time travel structures in BotNS consist of a labyrinthine entrance\npath coupled with a vertical structure. I'd focused on the fact that Ragnarok is only \nvisible from the upper stories of Last House in positing that verticality is the key to\nthe time travel. Very helpful discussion this year pointed out to me that the text also \nsuggests the pathway itself is involved in time travel. So perhaps both are involved. Or\nperhaps their functioning is left deliberately ambiguous and unknowable. I dunno.\n \nBut I do like the focus on the theme of a bifurcating path and choices of warm golden green\nvs. cold, wintry black and white. As Severian travels upon Brook Madregot it seems he has a\nsingle channel to follow as he moves to the past. But as he moves to the future (even futures \nhe has already lived through) he is presented with branchings and choices.\n \nIn combination with this, I think the Master Ash episode is one of the best bits of evidence \nfor Ryan's adjunct discussion of Severian being watched (and his watchers also being watched).\nWhat urthly purpose could possibly be served by the Pelerines sending Severian to \"save\" or \nkidnap Master Ash? The provided reason was obviously bogus. Master Ash was obviously much safer\nwhere he was than if he had been brought to the lazaret. Whomever initated the order clearly \nhad some arcane knowledge available to be able to provide the correct pathway on the map to the \nLast House.\n \nCapturing Master Ash seems clearly to be a test by these not-quite omniscient observers as to\nwhether Severian is on the right path to bring the future they desire. A question I have is \nwhether those who gave the order to the Pelerines wished for Master Ash to be present with\nSeverian, thus assuring the Ragnarok Path, or for his absence, assuring the Aureate Path \n(though this is a Long Sun term I think it is applicable here). \n \nPerhaps (almost assuredly) there is more than one level of observation and manipulation at work.\nSurely those who oppose the New Sun have been put to work against their own goals by a higher\npower. Superficially the Pelerines appear aligned with the Concilliator and the New Sun but I \ndetect hints that they are associated with some of the darker powers of the story. Moreover, I \nnote that they have encased the Claw in cold, hard, blue corundum and keep it hidden from sight. \nAlso their costumes are red (not yellow or gold) which may symbolize their true loyalties. \t\t \t \t\t " } ] }, { "message_id": "<0A92C5E2-A929-4E03-BF9F-2C711788C518@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-11-08T17:07:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) time and mirrors.", "in_reply_to": "<4CD7D647.2050207@io.com>", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 8, 2010, at 2:51 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote:\nOn 11/7/2010 6:19 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "It seems Baldanders must have some knowlege of Severian. It's too coincidental that They cross paths and travel together performing a preview of their future. I guess that the Heirodules, working backwards, have given Baldander's enough info to get him in Severian's path. He must know he's been set up when he see's them in the audience at the House Absolute." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "The multiple timeline thing doesn't gel much with me. I see this time model as an Amphisbaena that has a foreward and backward perspective. They can see Severian cutting through the time spiral enough to start meddling. The story only happens one way. All the time meddling creates the story as it always was, like any great story of prophesy." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "I think you will need to chose one of these two theses. If there is one, inevitable timeline, no involvement is required to arrange a meeting between Sev and Baldy, since there are no other possibilities and the agents of the all-seeing Tzadkiel would know it.\n\nBut it may be that there are but two outcomes possible and the meddling strengthens one while weakening the other.\nAfter reviewing Mantiss' bear and cat essay, I am inclined to think that this is the case, the bearish wintry Ragnorok future opposing the feline sultry Ushas one.\n\nThis may be the substance behind Lee's observations of time-traveling architecture; it's not sequentially bound with up and down, but polarized: the jungle hut is Ushas-y, while Valeria's court is Ragnorok-y. We can even bundle in the Hypogeums: they represent the protective wolf den which both shelters from the cold but isolates from the renewed prey of the returned spring; they cannot serve as a refuge forever and the Epitome must emerge to the final fate of Urth whichever it may be." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "No no.\nI'm not saying there is one innevitable timeline. \nI'm saying that all of the time meddling always happened because some powers have a reversed time perspective.\nAll of the meddling shapes the plot as it comes out.\nI do not subscribe, whatsoever — though anyone may if they want — that each tinkering with time branches multiple universes off ad nauseum.\n\nMirrors in this book echo the Amphisbaena time theme. The reality is somehow what gels in the image the two make as they reflect upon each other.\nBoth perspectives of time are simultaneous. \nPossibilities and Will abound, but out of all the time potentialities, (and we know future knowlege of Ushas or Ragnaraok are potentials) eventually cancel each other out into the one actuality.\n\nAnd, as an aside, I think the Hut in the Jungle is Earth-y, not Ushas-y.\nThe sand garden (?) where the smilodon roar and the thorn are Ushas-y, no?\n~Witz" } ] }, { "message_id": "<010DAEB1-1B3A-41D6-A338-F4061D8D559F@butcherbaker.org>", "from": { "name": "Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org", "address": "sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org" }, "date": "2010-11-08T17:17:27+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "On Nov 8, 2010, at 8:47 AM, Lee Berman wrote:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 2, "text": "Jeff Wilson: This may be the substance behind Lee's observations of time-traveling \narchitecture; it's not sequentially bound with up and down, but polarized: the jungle\nhut is Ushas-y, while Valeria's court is Ragnorok-y." }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "My suggestion was that time travel structures in BotNS consist of a labyrinthine entrance\npath coupled with a vertical structure. I'd focused on the fact that Ragnarok is only \nvisible from the upper stories of Last House in positing that verticality is the key to\nthe time travel. Very helpful discussion this year pointed out to me that the text also \nsuggests the pathway itself is involved in time travel. So perhaps both are involved. Or\nperhaps their functioning is left deliberately ambiguous and unknowable. I dunno.\n\nBut I do like the focus on the theme of a bifurcating path and choices of warm golden green\nvs. cold, wintry black and white. As Severian travels upon Brook Madregot it seems he has a\nsingle channel to follow as he moves to the past. But as he moves to the future (even futures \nhe has already lived through) he is presented with branchings and choices.\n\nIn combination with this, I think the Master Ash episode is one of the best bits of evidence \nfor Ryan's adjunct discussion of Severian being watched (and his watchers also being watched).\nWhat urthly purpose could possibly be served by the Pelerines sending Severian to \"save\" or \nkidnap Master Ash? The provided reason was obviously bogus. Master Ash was obviously much safer\nwhere he was than if he had been brought to the lazaret. Whomever initated the order clearly \nhad some arcane knowledge available to be able to provide the correct pathway on the map to the \nLast House.\n\nCapturing Master Ash seems clearly to be a test by these not-quite omniscient observers as to\nwhether Severian is on the right path to bring the future they desire. A question I have is \nwhether those who gave the order to the Pelerines wished for Master Ash to be present with\nSeverian, thus assuring the Ragnarok Path, or for his absence, assuring the Aureate Path \n(though this is a Long Sun term I think it is applicable here). \n\nPerhaps (almost assuredly) there is more than one level of observation and manipulation at work.\nSurely those who oppose the New Sun have been put to work against their own goals by a higher\npower. Superficially the Pelerines appear aligned with the Concilliator and the New Sun but I \ndetect hints that they are associated with some of the darker powers of the story. Moreover, I \nnote that they have encased the Claw in cold, hard, blue corundum and keep it hidden from sight. \nAlso their costumes are red (not yellow or gold) which may symbolize their true loyalties. \t\t \t \t\t " }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "It's certainly hard to see the first meaning, but the third is clear.\nBy the end of Sword, when the acumulated myth of the conicilaitor, aka, the blue corundum enclosure, is shattered and Severian holds the naked claw, he is truly on the right path. He does the deed of the Pelerines, showing that after all of the oaths he's broken, he is still aligned with the hope that the Concilator/New Sun of the Pelerine faiths. Thematically, by removing the Master Ash bear from his cave, who then DISAPPEARS, we see veiled proof that Severian has chosen the path that will avoid the Ragnaorok." } ] }, { "message_id": "<4CD863DA.6070901@poczta.fm>", "from": { "name": "Stanislaus B.", "address": "sbocian at poczta.fm" }, "date": "2010-11-08T20:55:54+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "", "reply_link": "header", "blocks": [ { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "I suggest reading Dumezil, especially on Varuna-type gods including \nOdin, and their servant creatures/people, such as luperci, centaurs and \nGandharvas. Without Dumezil Pan etc is imposssible to understand. \nCompare Russian theories on Veles - the insufficient treatment of Slavic \nmytholody caused Dumezil to miss many clues. Remember that Veles was \nChristianized as Devil, St Nicholaus and St Cassian - depending on his \nnegative/positive aspect. Also see this:\n\nhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krampus" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "2010-11-03 14:42, Lee Berman wrote:\nMoreover in current research, I'm finding more religious connection between Pan and\ndemons than I was previously aware of. Others more versed in religion might have been\nvery familiar but I'm finding some interesting associations in regard to the full Sun\nseries. More on that later. \t\t \t \t\t\n_______________________________________________" }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "----------------------------------------------------------------------\nNajlepsza wyszukiwarka tanich lot??w!\nSprawd? >>> http://linkint.pl/f284a" } ] }, { "message_id": "", "from": { "name": "Lee Berman", "address": "severiansola at hotmail.com" }, "date": "2010-11-09T14:28:24+00:00", "subject": "(urth) Wind god", "in_reply_to": "<4CD863DA.6070901@poczta.fm>", "reply_link": "subject", "blocks": [ { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Stanislaus B.- I suggest reading Dumezil, especially on Varuna-type gods including \nOdin, and their servant creatures/people, such as luperci, centaurs and \nGandharvas. Without Dumezil Pan etc is imposssible to understand." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": "In the biography, Wikipedia notes:" }, { "kind": "quote", "depth": 1, "text": "Many themes of Dum?zil's work have continued influence in ancient religious studies: for \nexample, his impulse to comparative study, and his basic insight that polytheistic gods \nmust be studied not simply by themselves, but in the pairs and ensembles in which their \nworshippers grouped them." }, { "kind": "text", "depth": 0, "text": " \nThanks Stan. Yes, this is EXACTLY what I am finding in RttW as a unifying theme which \nextends back to the subtext of BotNS. I find the general concept confusing but focusing \non the things (gods) Wolfe seems to be focusing on is at least allowing a vague explanatory \nmodel to appear, for me.\n \t\t \t \t\t " } ] } ] }