# Wind god *The Urth list — 64 messages, 11 voices, 03 Nov 2010* > Exported from an unofficial mirror of a public mailing list. Copyright > in each message remains with the person who wrote it. > Email addresses are obscured as `user at host`, the form the original > archive published. This file was rebuilt from parsed fields rather than > retained headers, so it is faithful in content but not byte-exact. --- ### Lee Berman *03 Nov 2010, 13:42* Still pecking through RttW and finding interesting revelations. One thing I find striking are the numerous mentions of Typhon/Pas as a god of winds. Why are we hit over the head so hard with this when the connection wasn't addressed at all in the previous five books of the Long/Short Sun series? (unless we count the hot, drought winds plaguing the Whorl during Silk's ascendence). I wonder if Wolfe might have treated RttW a bit like UotNS: some extra help on understanding some of the more impenetrable mysteries of the previous books. I can see more support for James' Typhon-as-Spring Wind theory here. Plus more full support for seeing BotNS Typhon as mythological (Greek and Egyptian) allegory not just a guy with multiple heads. I guess it might also support my idea that Pas' name is derived from wind demon Pazuzu rather than just Pan. Moreover in current research, I'm finding more religious connection between Pan and demons than I was previously aware of. Others more versed in religion might have been very familiar but I'm finding some interesting associations in regard to the full Sun series. More on that later. --- ### Gerry Quinn *03 Nov 2010, 15:51 · in reply to Lee Berman* > From: "Lee Berman" > > Still pecking through RttW and finding interesting revelations. > One thing I find striking are the numerous mentions of Typhon/Pas as > a god of winds. Why are we hit over the head so hard with this when the > connection wasn't addressed at all in the previous five books of the > Long/Short > Sun series? (unless we count the hot, drought winds plaguing the Whorl > during > Silk's ascendence). I read the Short Sun trilogy recently. I noticed Pas was associated with a whirlwind once or twice, but that's all I remember - certainly not being hit hard with it. And a whirlwind is different from a typhoon or sirocca. I don't really see why the association would be important anyway, though. What, if anything,does it tell us about him? I can see how a whirlwind or windstorm might reflect his rapid conquest of Urth - but we already know about that! - Gerry Quinn --- ### James Wynn *03 Nov 2010, 17:22 · in reply to Gerry Quinn* >> Lee Berman- >> Still pecking through RttW and finding interesting revelations. >> One thing I find striking are the numerous mentions of Typhon/Pas as >> a god of winds. Why are we hit over the head so hard with this when the >> connection wasn't addressed at all in the previous five books of the >> Long/Short >> Sun series? (unless we count the hot, drought winds plaguing the >> Whorl during >> Silk's ascendence). > Gerry Quinn - > I read the Short Sun trilogy recently. I noticed Pas was associated > with a whirlwind once or twice, but that's all I remember - certainly > not being hit hard with it. And a whirlwind is different from a > typhoon or sirocca. I don't really see why the association would be > important anyway, though. What, if anything,does it tell us about > him? I can see how a whirlwind or windstorm might reflect his rapid > conquest of Urth - but we already know about that! It TELLS us nothing in itself. The _why_ questions are the point. If Typhon is Spring Wind and/or the Student, what is the significance of his sons? I suspect that an epiphany in a Wolfe story always starts with someone saying "Yes, it is clear that such-and-such happened, buy WHY did it happen?" "Why did he do it?" "Why did Wolfe have the character mention this here?"*** For me, wondering why is always the start. Sometimes you come up with answer. *** Such as, "Why does Silk spend two full and separate paragraphs pondering why he called Blood "son"? Or "Why does Silk ponder that he and Sand must be brothers in some meta-universal sense because of the tenuous similarities in their names?" +u16b9 --- ### Lee Berman *04 Nov 2010, 11:43 · follows James Wynn* > Gerry Quinn - > I read the Short Sun trilogy recently. I noticed Pas was associated > with a whirlwind once or twice, but that's all I remember - certainly > not being hit hard with it. And a whirlwind is different from a > typhoon or sirocca. I don't really see why the association would be > important anyway, though. What, if anything,does it tell us about > him? I'd have to check but I think there are at least 3 remarks on the wind stuff. I agree with James that the very fact of the mention of wind here has meaning. Starting with Sword of the Lictor, Wolfe has had 10 books in which to deal with this Typhon/Pas character. Why, finally, in the tenth is wind mentioned? Perhaps it is just a late attempt to add a bit more decoration and color to a boring character? If that rings true for you then it is a good hypothesis. For me it seems almost impossible for that to be Wolfe's only intention with this. It seems like a pointer that shouldn't be ignored. To James it points to Spring Wind To me, mythological Typhon and his cognates. The mythological connection does suggest things to me about the character. First that he is connected to the Mandragora. Next that mythological Typhon's status as a Titan might relate to a current Olympian status of the "gods" on Urth. A shame there seem to be 17 instead of 12 but hey, can't be TOO obvious. Some other stuff too. I was more skeptical of James' spring Wind theory at first but I can see the slim but still supporting evidence. Moreover it seems to bolster the theme of exaggerated legend- religion that Wolfe seems to address. We are explicitly shown that Severian's modest accomplishments as Concilliator (a few healings, a resurrection, maybe some geological manipulation) are exaggerated into a society altering cult-figure. Not hard to see how the same process could take Urth's Typhon and turn him into a hundred-headed man- dragon. Or a benign demiurge on the Whorl. --- ### Jack Smith *04 Nov 2010, 11:53 · in reply to Lee Berman* Typhon is boring? Why do you think so? > On Thu, Nov 4, 2010 at 7:43 AM, Lee Berman wrote: >> Gerry Quinn - >> I read the Short Sun trilogy recently. I noticed Pas was associated >> with a whirlwind once or twice, but that's all I remember - certainly >> not being hit hard with it. And a whirlwind is different from a >> typhoon or sirocca. I don't really see why the association would be >> important anyway, though. What, if anything,does it tell us about >> him? > I'd have to check but I think there are at least 3 remarks on the wind > stuff. I > agree with James that the very fact of the mention of wind here has > meaning. Starting with Sword of the Lictor, Wolfe has had 10 books in which > to deal > with this Typhon/Pas character. Why, finally, in the tenth is wind > mentioned? > > Perhaps it is just a late attempt to add a bit more decoration and color to > a > boring character? If that rings true for you then it is a good hypothesis. > For > me it seems almost impossible for that to be Wolfe's only intention with > this. > > It seems like a pointer that shouldn't be ignored. To James it points to > Spring Wind > To me, mythological Typhon and his cognates. The mythological connection > does suggest > things to me about the character. First that he is connected to the > Mandragora. Next > that mythological Typhon's status as a Titan might relate to a current > Olympian > status of the "gods" on Urth. A shame there seem to be 17 instead of 12 but > hey, can't > be TOO obvious. Some other stuff too. > > I was more skeptical of James' spring Wind theory at first but I can see > the slim but > still supporting evidence. Moreover it seems to bolster the theme of > exaggerated legend- > religion that Wolfe seems to address. We are explicitly shown that > Severian's modest > accomplishments as Concilliator (a few healings, a resurrection, maybe some > geological > manipulation) are exaggerated into a society altering cult-figure. Not hard > to see > how the same process could take Urth's Typhon and turn him into a > hundred-headed man- > dragon. Or a benign demiurge on the Whorl. > _______________________________________________ --- ### Lee Berman *04 Nov 2010, 17:22 · follows Jack Smith* > Jack Smith: Typhon is boring? Why do you think so? I don't think that. But if Wolfe thought he was boring he mind have added a little wind to spruce him up a bit. I don't think that either. But perhaps some do or are just content to eschew finding meaning to the wind reference. I was just trying to be open to all interpretations. > Gerry Quinn- And a whirlwind is different from a typhoon or sirocca. Agreed and I appreciate this observation. (I don't find the typhoon reference so relevant, myself). Learned that scirocco is the Italian word and ghibli is the Arabic word for those searing hot desert winds. Your mentioning whirlwind was poking at some vague memories and had to check: Yep, Jahweh of the Old Testament appears as a whirlwind a number of times, notably to Ezekiel, Elijah and Job. Maybe the pillar of cloud and pillar of fire during the Red Sea crossing also? Fits in nicely with sort of a GUT that is currently sort of congealing for me lately. Will post some ideas when ready. --- ### António Pedro Marques *04 Nov 2010, 17:29 · in reply to Lee Berman* Lee Berman wrote (04-11-2010 17:22): > (I don't find the typhoon reference so relevant, myself). As the one casting dount on the etymological connection between typhon and typhoon, I should say once again that I don't think the lack of a real connection would in any way prevent its use. Or could it be a red herring, seeing as the names are just so similar? --- ### Andrew Mason *05 Nov 2010, 00:30 · follows António Pedro Marques* Lee Berman wrote: We are explicitly shown that Severian's modest > accomplishments as Concilliator (a few healings, a resurrection, maybe some geological > manipulation) are exaggerated into a society altering cult-figure. I'm not sure of this. According to Dorcas's account of the Conciliator he used to disappear and reappear, suggesting that Severian's trip to Typhon's time is not the sole source of the legend. This may mean either that there have been other, as yet unrecounted, appearances of Severian, or that the Conciliator is a composite figure made up of various people, of whom Jesus is, perhaps, the first, and Severian the last. --- ### Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org *05 Nov 2010, 05:29 · in reply to Andrew Mason* I like this. It adds to the idea that the Tomb Builder Severian (sounds like an action figure) is out meddling around beyond the text. ~Mike > On Nov 4, 2010, at 5:30 PM, Andrew Mason wrote: > Lee Berman wrote: > > We are explicitly shown that Severian's modest > accomplishments as Concilliator (a few healings, a resurrection, maybe some geological > manipulation) are exaggerated into a society altering cult-figure. > > I'm not sure of this. According to Dorcas's account of the Conciliator > he used to disappear and reappear, suggesting that Severian's trip to > Typhon's time is not the sole source of the legend. This may mean > either that there have been other, as yet unrecounted, appearances of > Severian, or that the Conciliator is a composite figure made up of > various people, of whom Jesus is, perhaps, the first, and Severian the > last. > _______________________________________________ --- ### Lee Berman *05 Nov 2010, 12:57 · follows Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org* > Andrew Mason- According to Dorcas's account of the Conciliator he used to disappear and reappear, > suggesting that Severian's trip to Typhon's time is not the sole source of the legend. > Son o'Witz- I like this. It adds to the idea that the Tomb Builder Severian is out meddling > around beyond the text. Agreed, Andrew brings up an interesting idea that I hadn't thought much about before. Severian does see a couple guys who look like himself in the crowd at the inn during the Zama incident. Moreover, Typhon himself describes the Conciliator as a "wonderworker" to Severian. This would seem to be a sarcastic comment given that the demonstration to Typhon we see of The Conciliator's power consists of him jabbing a dagger into a tabletop. But if Severian had doppelgangers who continued to appear in Typhon's realm healing and purifying lust and whatnot, perhaps Typhon really did accept that the Conciliator had superhuman powers, by the time he died on his couch. > or that the Conciliator is a composite figure made up of various people, of whom Jesus is, perhaps, the > first, and Severian the last. This doesn't work for me, especially since my understanding of the sub-textual story of BotNS requires that this world/universe never had a Jesus. But this touches on many previous debates on whether Urth is Earth, which is past which is future etc. --- ### Jeff Wilson *05 Nov 2010, 13:15 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On 11/5/2010 7:57 AM, Lee Berman wrote: >> Andrew Mason- According to Dorcas's account of the Conciliator he used to disappear and reappear, >> suggesting that Severian's trip to Typhon's time is not the sole source of the legend. >> Son o'Witz- I like this. It adds to the idea that the Tomb Builder Severian is out meddling >> around beyond the text. > Agreed, Andrew brings up an interesting idea that I hadn't thought much about before. Severian does > see a couple guys who look like himself in the crowd at the inn during the Zama incident. > > Moreover, Typhon himself describes the Conciliator as a "wonderworker" to Severian. This would seem > to be a sarcastic comment given that the demonstration to Typhon we see of The Conciliator's power > consists of him jabbing a dagger into a tabletop. Lee, this an example of the kind of selective reading that pisses off people. In the second sentence following Typhon calling the Conciliator a wonder-worker, he gives a perfectly straightforward reason for calling him that: "[...]and since diseases and deformities seemed to flee from him, I ordered him brought to me." The disappearances mentioned my Dorcas would seem to indicate that his departure into the Corridors was further attested by the soldiers who witnessed it after he left Typhon's presence. It's not as if Sev had a chance to fail to produce miracles on command, when Typhon himself had him sent away after the knife incident. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` --- ### Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org *05 Nov 2010, 14:00 · in reply to Lee Berman* >> On Nov 5, 2010, at 5:57 AM, Lee Berman wrote: >> or that the Conciliator is a composite figure made up of various people, of whom Jesus is, perhaps, the >> first, and Severian the last. > This doesn't work for me, especially since my understanding of the sub-textual story of BotNS requires that > this world/universe never had a Jesus. But this touches on many previous debates on whether Urth is Earth, > which is past which is future etc. I REALLY don't want to start the whole debate over about Sev-Christ, really, I don't. But I just noticed thid great bit in CLAW, Dorcas says, " To me you're Life, and you're a young man named Severian, and if you wanted to put on different clothes and become a carpenter or a fisherman, no one could stop you." "Carpenter" "Fisherman" hmmm...... Just pointing that bit out, not trying to prove anyone wrong. ~witz --- ### Gerry Quinn *05 Nov 2010, 15:34 · in reply to Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org* From: Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org On Nov 5, 2010, at 5:57 AM, Lee Berman wrote: or that the Conciliator is a composite figure made up of various people, of whom Jesus is, perhaps, the first, and Severian the last. This doesn't work for me, especially since my understanding of the sub-textual story of BotNS requires that this world/universe never had a Jesus. But this touches on many previous debates on whether Urth is Earth, which is past which is future etc. I REALLY don't want to start the whole debate over about Sev-Christ, really, I don't. But I just noticed thid great bit in CLAW, Dorcas says, " To me you're Life, and you're a young man named Severian, and if you wanted to put on different clothes and become a carpenter or a fisherman, no one could stop you." "Carpenter" "Fisherman" hmmm...... Just pointing that bit out, not trying to prove anyone wrong. Also, in BotLS, Silk has a vision of Jesus on Palm Sunday. Quetzal mentions the 'forgotten' god Ah-lah, and tells a version of the Adam and Eve story. For me, these are pretty good evidence that the prehistory of Urth, even if it was not exactly our Earth (as Wolfe has suggested), was rather similar in certain respects. Having recently read BotSS, I noticed Horn/Silk invents a version of the Eucharist to worship the Outsider, whom he identifies as the god of the Neighbours. Of course one can make various alternative hypotheses. The hero on Palm Sunday might have been a previous iteration of Jesus. The Outsider might have vouchsafed Silk a vision from a different universe. My feeling is that while Wolfe is certainly a complex and subtle author, his works are not best understood as puzzle boxes with a hidden primary meaning. Also, if I were made Pope for a day I would declare that overthinking theological issues is a very great sin ;-) - Gerry Quinn --- ### Lee Berman *05 Nov 2010, 16:52 · follows Gerry Quinn* > Jeff Wilson- Lee, this an example of the kind of selective reading that pisses off > people. In the second sentence following Typhon calling the Conciliator a wonder-worker, > he gives a perfectly straightforward reason for calling him that: "[...]and since diseases > and deformities seemed to flee from him, I ordered him brought to me." The disappearances > mentioned my Dorcas would seem to indicate that his departure into the Corridors was further > attested by the soldiers who witnessed it after he left Typhon's presence. I don't know if you can speak for "people" but if I've pissed you off, I apologize, though I'm not sure why what I wrote upsets you. Or did you mean you were pissed off at Andrew, whose idea I was going along with? Anyway, as I read the passage, Typhon was facing a major medical problem at the time. He called for the alleged wonderworker to be brought before him in hopes he could fix what his own doctors could not fix (Piaton's stubbornness in reliquishing full control of his body). Instead of helping, Severian presented a far more immediate threat to Typhon's life and a massive security breach which had to be dealt with immediately. Typhon's orders would have been something like "get this crazy quack out of here now and hang the person responsible from a pole!". So for me I could see the need for further convincing, as Andrew suggests, via multiple Concilliators appearing and disappearing through the rest of Typhon's reign. Or maybe Typhon died thinking the Concilliator was a quack. Dunno. But I really don't have a dog in this fight. My own interpretation of the multiple Severian/5 coffins stuff is a bit different in emphasis (more autobiographical allusion than plot driven). > Son o'Witz- "Carpenter" "Fisherman" hmmm...... > Gerry Quinn- Silk has a vision of Jesus on Palm Sunday. Quetzal mentions the 'forgotten' god Ah-lah, > and tells a version of the Adam and Eve story. Horn/Silk invents a version of the Eucharist to worship > the Outsider, whom he identifies as the god of the Neighbours These seem clearly to be important clues. I think the Neighbors are important in that they can dream-travel to other places; perhaps other times? Perhaps other universes? As I see it (meaning how I think Wolfe sees it), we live in a world in which Jahweh and Jesus and Allah etc. are real and giant gods and monsters and vampires and such are mystic legends. Urth/Whorl/Briah is a place in which giant gods and monsters and vampires are real and Jahweh, Jesus and Allah are mystic legends. The legends echo back and forth between future and past or maybe between universes. Perhaps which is which or which is correct is not really important. --- ### Jeff Wilson *05 Nov 2010, 17:32 · in reply to Lee Berman* >> Jeff Wilson- Lee, this an example of the kind of selective reading that >> pisses off >> people. In the second sentence following Typhon calling the Conciliator a >> wonder-worker, >> he gives a perfectly straightforward reason for calling him that: >> "[...]and since diseases >> and deformities seemed to flee from him, I ordered him brought to me." >> The disappearances >> mentioned my Dorcas would seem to indicate that his departure into the >> Corridors was further >> attested by the soldiers who witnessed it after he left Typhon's >> presence. > I don't know if you can speak for "people" but if I've pissed you off, I > apologize, though I'm > not sure why what I wrote upsets you. Or did you mean you were pissed off > at Andrew, whose idea > I was going along with? I won't unilaterally re-involve people by naming names, but if you truly don't recall the considerable irritation other listpeople have displayed at your methods of justifying previous "GUT" notions of yours, that would explain a great deal. Unfortunately, it would also be a pathological symptom, like the hypoxia from my sleep apnea that makes me just dumber than dirt on some days, and never as sharp as I could be or even was 2-3 years ago. > Anyway, as I read the passage, Typhon was facing a major medical problem > at the time. He called > for the alleged wonderworker to be brought before him in hopes he could > fix what his own doctors > could not fix (Piaton's stubbornness in reliquishing full control of his > body). Instead of helping, > Severian presented a far more immediate threat to Typhon's life and a > massive security breach which > had to be dealt with immediately. Typhon's orders would have been > something like "get this crazy > quack out of here now and hang the person responsible from a pole!". > > So for me I could see the need for further convincing, as Andrew suggests, > via multiple Concilliators > appearing and disappearing through the rest of Typhon's reign. Or maybe > Typhon died thinking the > Concilliator was a quack. Dunno. But Typhon is making the "wonder-worker" speech in SWORD, when he knows there's something special about the Conciliator because he senses that the older fellow he met before his "drying" is connected to the younger but otherwise identical-looking fellow he meets after, both from common sense and from his psychic gifts. --- ### António Pedro Marques *05 Nov 2010, 18:11 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* Jeff Wilson wrote (05-11-2010 17:32): >>> Jeff Wilson- Lee, this an example of the kind of selective reading >>> that pisses off people. In the second sentence following Typhon >>> calling the Conciliator a wonder-worker, he gives a perfectly >>> straightforward reason for calling him that: "[...]and since diseases >>> and deformities seemed to flee from him, I ordered him brought to >>> me." The disappearances mentioned my Dorcas would seem to indicate >>> that his departure into the Corridors was further attested by the >>> soldiers who witnessed it after he left Typhon's presence. >> I don't know if you can speak for "people" but if I've pissed you off, >> I apologize, though I'm not sure why what I wrote upsets you. Or did >> you mean you were pissed off at Andrew, whose idea I was going along >> with? > I won't unilaterally re-involve people by naming names, but if you truly > don't recall the considerable irritation other listpeople have displayed > at your methods of justifying previous "GUT" notions of yours, that > would explain a great deal. Given that Lee customarily says something to the effect of 'sorry if I'm unintentionally doing that (bending/falsifying the evidence)' and then does it again at the next opportunity, I'm inclined to think it's a memory problem. Otherwise his professing unintentionality would be dishonest, which I find hard to believe. (Unintentional errors are quite possible given the source material, but not to the point of obstinating, and as time goes by one should become more alert.) > Unfortunately, it would also be a pathological symptom, like the hypoxia > from my sleep apnea that makes me just dumber than dirt on some days, and > never as sharp as I could be or even was 2-3 years ago. Is there nothing that can be done about it? --- ### James Wynn *05 Nov 2010, 18:32 · in reply to António Pedro Marques* >>> Lee Berman- >>> I don't know if you can speak for "people" but if I've pissed you off, >>> I apologize, though I'm not sure why what I wrote upsets you. Or did >>> you mean you were pissed off at Andrew, whose idea I was going along >>> with? >> Jeff Wilson- >> I won't unilaterally re-involve people by naming names, but if you truly >> don't recall the considerable irritation other listpeople have >> displayed >> at your methods of justifying previous "GUT" notions of yours, that >> would explain a great deal. > Ant?nio Pedro Marques - > Given that Lee customarily says something to the effect of 'sorry if I'm > unintentionally doing that (bending/falsifying the evidence)' and then > does > it again at the next opportunity, I'm inclined to think it's a memory > problem. Otherwise his professing unintentionality would be dishonest, > which > I find hard to believe. Anybody who has posted to this list for any amount of time is guilty of taking a phrase as expansive when it has a more narrow reading in context. So Pot Meet Kettle. Additionally, sometimes Wolfe has his unreliable narrator offer an explanation that is probably untrue. Or is only true in a very narrow sense, when the Author is pointing to much more. In that case, it is the person who declares his devotion to Reading Straight From the Text in Context who is being dense. In fact, I've been irritated at people who were being overly contentious about Thus Says The Text when, in fact, I suspected they cared more about winning a debate than coming to understand what is going on in the story. So there's that. But this is the way it is. Wolfe's stories are more than a Free Country. They are more than the Wild West. The are the Land that Time Forgot. He made them that way deliberately, I'm afraid. So one should beware of ascribing malicious motives to people who proffer theories that you think are thinly supported. Most theories are thinly supported. Even the right ones. If an explanation is not compelling, just let it go. u_16b9 --- ### Andrew Mason *05 Nov 2010, 19:05 · follows James Wynn* Um. Jesus is of course not essential to my theory - the Conciliator might be a composite figure whether or not Jesus was one of those who contributed to the composite. Also relevant to this is something said, I think, by Agia which suggests that the Conciliator lived thirty thousand years ago. That might be just because Wolfe hadn't worked out Typhon's dates when he wrote it, but it could also point to the idea of multiple appearances. On the Jesus question: I'm not sure it matters for this purpose whether Urth is Earth, since if it is not, it nevertheless has a past _very_ like the actual history of Earth, including Fair Rosamund, Marlowe, Mary Shelley, Lewis Carroll, etc. I find it hard to imagine that a world could contain all this without containing Jesus, whose absence must surely have knocked history off-course quite a bit. There are quite a few references to the Old Testament in the cycle, including a direct quotation (Joseph's dream) in _Urth_. There is nothing explicit from the New Testament as far as I can remember; the nearest is a reference in Dr Talos's play to raising sons from stones, but that might alternatively be connected with Deucalion. There does seem to have been something very like the Catholic Church (and, on the basis of things said last time this came up, the Orthodox Church as well) in the past of Urth - again, it is hard to imagine that without Jesus. However, whatever is the case in _New Sun_, it seems to me that _Long Sun_, which I am just reading now, is much more explicit. The evidence Gerry Quinn has brought up is relevant, but the clearest thing seems to me to be the story about the Outsider, 'through a man he had posseessed and enlightened', whipping the sellers of sacrificial animals. This is not theologically accurate, of course - you wouldn't expect that of the Chrasmological Writings - but it seems clear enough what story it is referring to. --- ### António Pedro Marques *05 Nov 2010, 19:20 · in reply to James Wynn* James Wynn wrote (05-11-2010 18:32): >>>> Lee Berman- I don't know if you can speak for "people" but if I've >>>> pissed you off, I apologize, though I'm not sure why what I wrote >>>> upsets you. Or did you mean you were pissed off at Andrew, whose >>>> idea I was going along with? >>> Jeff Wilson- I won't unilaterally re-involve people by naming names, >>> but if you truly don't recall the considerable irritation other >>> listpeople have displayed at your methods of justifying previous >>> "GUT" notions of yours, that would explain a great deal. >> Ant?nio Pedro Marques - Given that Lee customarily says something to >> the effect of 'sorry if I'm unintentionally doing that >> (bending/falsifying the evidence)' and then does it again at the next >> opportunity, I'm inclined to think it's a memory problem. Otherwise his >> professing unintentionality would be dishonest, which I find hard to >> believe. > Anybody who has posted to this list for any amount of time is guilty of > taking a phrase as expansive when it has a more narrow reading in > context. Not, however, of doing it again and again and again. > (...) one should beware of ascribing malicious motives to people who > proffer theories that you think are thinly supported. Apples, oranges. Theories don't enter the picture. We're talking about facts. We're talking about a certain 'kind of selective reading'. The kind in which you write paragraphs about sentence X, ignoring the relevant data in sentence X - 1. Or you make a fuss about why word Y is used in passage Z and then it turns out that word Y doesn't appear in passage Z or at all. And some days after it has been pointed out that sentence X - 1 can't be ignored and word Y doesn't occur, you make recourse to the conclusions based on the false premises in order to support some other point. We've seen that happen a lot. And generally people find it irritating when their interlocutors keep adducing arguments that have previously been established as false (if word Y doesn't occur, then the argument based on its occurrence is wrong and that's all she wrote - or do you wish me to start calling you John and keep talking about the time you spent in Nepal and how they found your red hair unusual there?) After all, we've never seen proof that the current President of the USA is a natural born citizen. --- ### António Pedro Marques *05 Nov 2010, 19:22 · in reply to Andrew Mason* Andrew Mason wrote (05-11-2010 19:05): > On the Jesus question: I'm not sure it matters for this purpose whether > Urth is Earth, since if it is not, it nevertheless has a past _very_ like > the actual history of Earth, including Fair Rosamund, Marlowe, Mary > Shelley, Lewis Carroll, etc. I find it hard to imagine that a world could > contain all this without containing Jesus, whose absence must surely have > knocked history off-course quite a bit. Of course - and take Holy Katharine and 'Judastree', where is the latter supoosed to have come from? --- ### James Wynn *05 Nov 2010, 19:58 · in reply to António Pedro Marques* > Ant?nio Pedro Marques- > Apples, oranges. Theories don't enter the picture. We're talking about > facts. We're talking about a certain 'kind of selective reading'. EVERYBODY selectively reads a Wolfe novel, if they've read him long. Anyone who says he has not is selectively recalling. (I would not say such people are bending or misrepresenting the facts, since that statement implies it is done intentionally.) Furthermore, "people" regularly, and irritatingly, declare things "proved" or proved false that have not in fact been proven. Shall we denounce those as well for unscrupulous methods? Why should we? Who the Niflheim cares? Let them say it. I don't find Lee's GUT compelling, but I don't think he's engaged in a Council on Foreign Relations plot to seduce me with it. It's generally very difficult to keep all of the Sun Cycle in your head at all times. And even if you could, no will ascribe the same importance to all its parts. And some bits are so useless literally that they *have* to be pointing at something else--IMO. And I, for one, do not believe all the answers are in the text. I think Wolfe has deliberately left out key answers because he thought them too obvious. I could name a couple of confirmed examples. You have to engage in cognitive leaps sometimes. And people have made false jumps only to land serendipitously on some unlooked for fact (such as the "red monkey" connections Lee brought up earlier --it was Lee right?). So people who get irritated should remember that its only literature we are discussing here. u+16b9 --- ### António Pedro Marques *05 Nov 2010, 20:17 · in reply to James Wynn* James Wynn wrote (05-11-2010 19:58): > (...) "people" regularly, and irritatingly, declare things "proved" or > proved false that have not in fact been proven. Everyone's entitled to their opinions. Not to their facts. If the word 'green' isn't there, it isn't there, and repeatedly discussing why it *is* there is inconsiderate. > I don't find Lee's GUT compelling, but (...) I'm not criticising his GUT (I'm all for everyone developing their own contradictory and wild ideas - honest - what I'm not for is people making up their facts and not even acknowledging that). Except of course for what made the acronym pop up in the first place: 1) it's a scheme that tramples evidence and as such tells us more about its proponent than about the books, 2) it posits that the books follow a scheme, which is unwarranted (and detracting, in my opinion). > (...) people have made false jumps only to land serendipitously on some > unlooked for fact Could happen, but it's not a method. > (such as the "red monkey" connections Lee brought up earlier --it was > Lee right?). Hard to tell when few respect the mingboggingly simple way of attributing and replying to messages, but I think so, spurred by Ryan. --- ### James Wynn *05 Nov 2010, 20:31 · in reply to António Pedro Marques* > Ant?nio Pedro Marques- > Everyone's entitled to their opinions. Not to their facts. If the word > 'green' isn't there, it isn't there, and repeatedly discussing why it > *is* > there is inconsiderate. Only a aspergers-debilitated geek would be interested in policing what is a "fact" from what is an alternate reading from what is an error based on another posters erroneous reading popularly bandied about. It's fine to correct someone on the facts when you think you have noted an error. But if you go the step further and ascribe malicious motives or categorize the person's perceived error as "this is what you always do", I'm going to read you as a jerk. u+16b9 --- ### Lee Berman *05 Nov 2010, 20:37 · follows James Wynn* > James Wynn- Anybody who has posted to this list for any amount of time is guilty of > taking a phrase as expansive when it has a more narrow reading in context. So Pot Meet Kettle. Seems so to me also. I don't see how my mention of the possibly sarcastic "wonder-worker" is rendered an example of maliciously selective reading because I didn't include "..and since diseases and deformities seemed to flee from him". Quite a large pile of poo unleashed over two quite similar phrases. It does seem like the goal was personal attack rather than advancing understanding of the text. "Pathological hypoxia due to sleep apnea"? I admit that's a fresh new line of attack I haven't seen used before. But anyway, yep, surely all are guilty of selective reading at times. > Andrew Mason- According to Dorcas's account of the Conciliator, he used to disappear and reappear > Jeff Wilson- The disappearances mentioned my Dorcas would seem to indicate that his departure into > the Corridors was further attested by the soldiers who witnessed it. Andrew mentions disappearing *and* reappearing. It would be the reappearances that support the idea of out-of-text re-emergings of doppelganger Conciliators. Mustn't read one word and skip the other. Let's be fair to Andrew's ideas. They don't deserve piles of poo dumped on them even if I, personally, do. > Jeff Wilson- But Typhon is making the "wonder-worker" speech in SWORD, when he knows > there's something special about the Conciliator because he senses that the older fellow > he met before his "drying" is connected to the younger but otherwise identical-looking fellow > he meets after, both from common sense and from his psychic gifts. The SWORD encounter itself does not provide enough information to make this conclusion. The scene implies that Typhon connects Severian to the Conciliator because of the pouch around his neck, containing the Claw of the Conciliator. Only later do we learn Severian is the Conciliator, which might allow us to infer that Typhon recognizes Severian personally. Still, we might wonder why Typhon treats Severian as a complete stranger when they first meet. --- ### Dan'l Danehy-Oakes *05 Nov 2010, 20:43 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Lee Berman wrote: > Andrew mentions disappearing *and* reappearing. It would be the reappearances that support the idea > of out-of-text re-emergings of doppelganger Conciliators. Mustn't read one word and skip the other. I've always taken it to imply that Severian made other trips to Typhon's era. Of course, it could also be just a case of the tale growing in the telling, that there was just the one disappearance but a thousand years have embellished the matter somewhat. > The SWORD encounter itself does not provide enough information to make this conclusion. The scene implies > that Typhon connects Severian to the Conciliator because of the pouch around his neck, containing the Claw > of the Conciliator. ?Only later do we learn Severian is the Conciliator, ?which might allow us to infer > that Typhon recognizes Severian personally. Still, we might wonder why Typhon treats Severian as a complete > stranger when they first meet. Perhaps because he does not yet have the scar and limp that mark him later? ``` Dan'l Danehy-Oakes ``` --- ### António Pedro Marques *05 Nov 2010, 20:47 · in reply to James Wynn* James Wynn wrote (05-11-2010 20:31): > Ant?nio Pedro Marques- > Everyone's entitled to their opinions. Not to their facts. If the word > 'green' isn't there, it isn't there, and repeatedly discussing why it > *is* there is inconsiderate. > > Only a aspergers-debilitated geek would be interested in policing what > is a "fact" from what is an alternate reading from what is an error > based on another posters erroneous reading popularly bandied about. It's > fine to correct someone on the facts when you think you have noted an > error. But if you go the step further and ascribe malicious motives or > categorize the person's perceived error as "this is what you always do", > I'm going to read you as a jerk. But that's a social shortcoming on your part, blaming the messenger for the message. If the behaviour is repetitive, it's repetitive. We have now a fresh example of 'Affirming P was an isolated tiny thing I don't think anyone should be offended by it'. In a few days we'll have 'Since P, then Q'. Ignoring that and making the protest sound like thought police seems (seems) disingenuous. --- ### Lee Berman *05 Nov 2010, 20:54 · follows António Pedro Marques* > Andrew Mason- the clearest thing seems to me to be the story about the Outsider, > 'through a man he had posseessed and enlightened', whipping the sellers of sacrificial > animals. This is not theologically accurate, of course -you wouldn't expect that of the > Chrasmological Writings - but it seems clear enough what story it is referring to. I would like to be more direct and say, "it seems clear enough what person it is referring to. Then I'd want to reverse it, as I think Gene Wolfe is inviting us to do, and think about a story of a hundred headed man-dragon breathing hot fiery winds and ask what person it is referring to. The same for the story of a giant, shapeshifting, bisexual god in the clouds named Zeus. And the same for a Melanesian eel named Abaia... When you say "this is not theologically accurate, of course", do you mean because the story implies Jesus was a man who was possessed by The Outsider god, rather than having been born a deity or holy Savior? Possession does seem to imply more of demonic presence, yes? (though some sects of Christianity do take great stock in human beings becoming possessed by the Holy Spirit, writhing around and speaking in tongues; some others might argue that these are misled devil worshipping cults...) --- ### Ryan Dunn *05 Nov 2010, 20:58 · in reply to António Pedro Marques* >> On Nov 5, 2010, at 4:17 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: >> (such as the "red monkey" connections Lee brought up earlier --it was >> Lee right?). > Hard to tell when few respect the mingboggingly simple way of attributing > and replying to messages, but I think so, spurred by Ryan. My original post to the group was asking what to make of the reoccurance of primates in BotNS, as well as attributes to various characters resembling apes, and whether or not they may serve as clues for various appearances of Father Inire, and whether Inire may himself be a shape-shifter (sparked by the clue of Zak in UotNS). Just wanted to be clear on the original intent of my post before I got dragged into any GUT mud-slinging. ...ryan --- ### James Wynn *05 Nov 2010, 21:11 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* > My original post to the group was asking what to make of the reoccurance of primates in BotNS, as well as attributes to various characters resembling apes, and whether or not they may serve as clues for various appearances of Father Inire, and whether Inire may himself be a shape-shifter (sparked by the clue of Zak in UotNS). Just wanted to be clear on the original intent of my post before I got dragged into any GUT mud-slinging. > > ...ryan Sorry Ryan. That was just me distorting and misrepresenting facts as I'm nihilistically inclined to do. u+16b9 --- ### James Wynn *05 Nov 2010, 21:15 · in reply to António Pedro Marques* >> James Wynn- >> But if you go the step further and ascribe malicious motives or >> categorize the person's perceived error as "this is what you always do", >> I'm going to read you as a jerk. > Ant?nio Pedro Marques- > But that's a social shortcoming on your part, blaming the messenger > for the message. If the behaviour is repetitive, it's repetitive. We > have now a fresh example of 'Affirming P was an isolated tiny thing I > don't think anyone should be offended by it'. In a few days we'll have > 'Since P, then Q'. Ignoring that and making the protest sound like > thought police seems (seems) disingenuous. Not thought police...smugly anal. For the rest, I guess you already have my response. ~u+16b9 --- ### Lee Berman *05 Nov 2010, 21:28 · follows James Wynn* > Ryan Dunn- Just wanted to be clear on the original intent of my post before I got dragged > into any GUT mud-slinging Heh, yep, no blame for GUTS or monkeys should be direct to you Ryan. I insist that all such hurled simian poop should be thrown my way. I'm not sure what James is referring to with the "red monkey" thing. There is the uakari monkey http://www.primates.com/monkeys/images/uakari.jpg mentioned in BotNS which could be said to resemble Father Inire or vice versa. Borski gets credit for noticing long before I did. For me there was a recent nice serendipity in my research on possible origins of Father Inire's name. The verb is associated with an epithet of the god Faunus, called Inuus. This guy was known for his perverse lechery and that was interesting enough but then I found Inuus was also an archaic genus name for a certain group of monkeys. So I saw a loose connection. This has been somewhat tightened recently by some references I found in RttW which further connect Sun series gods with monkeys and Roman epithets. Could be all coincidence but the connections are piling up and the absence of other explanations for these references are staring to make me take it more seriously as a deliberate intention of Wolfe. I don't like being cryptic so I'll try to get a new thread started on this as soon as I can, for those who are interested. --- ### Andrew Mason *05 Nov 2010, 22:01 · follows Lee Berman* Lee Berman wrote: But if Severian had doppelgangers who continued to > appear in Typhon's realm healing and purifying lust and whatnot, perhaps Typhon really did accept that > the Conciliator had superhuman powers, by the time he died on his couch. Just to clarify: what I had in mind was reappearances at long intervals (thus reconciling the 'thirty thousand years' thing with Typhon's dates - though that might alos be explained through a change of plan on Wolfe's part). More than one appearance in Typhon's reign is also possible, though, I guess. (But I had an idea that Typhon died shortly after Severian's meeting with him - does this have a foundation?) --- ### Andrew Mason *05 Nov 2010, 22:06 · follows Andrew Mason* Lee Berman wrote: . > When you say "this is not theologically accurate, of course", do you mean because the story > implies Jesus was a man who was possessed by The Outsider god, rather than having been born > a deity or holy Savior? Yes. > Possession does seem to imply more of demonic presence, yes? That I'm not so sure about. The idea of a god taking over a prophet and speaking through them, which seems to be roughly what possession means here, has some respectable antecedents. I meant inaccurate because it falls short of what Christians believe about Jesus, rather than because it connotes anything bad. --- ### James Wynn *05 Nov 2010, 22:41 · in reply to Andrew Mason* >> Lee Berman- >> When you say "this is not theologically accurate, of course", do you mean because the story >> implies Jesus was a man who was possessed by The Outsider god, rather than having been born >> a deity or holy Savior? Are we talking about what Silk says in the first chapter of Nightside? "He would have to be firm with them, extremely firm. Remind them that the Outsider was known to esteem them last among men already--that according to the Writings he had once (having possessed and enlightened a fortunate man) beaten them severely in person." The concept of the Eternal Logos is one that is defined by Christian theologians rather than understood. This is about as clear an understanding as Silk could have realistically been expected to comprehend at that point in the story. As I've said before, I can see little narrative value in differentiating between Severian existing in our future or in a previous cycle. I could construct a self-consistent model in which they are different -- --one where the coming and sacrifice of the Christ works backwards and forwards into adjacent cycles so others are enlightened by the story and where there is a Catholic Church without a Christ for the same reason grooms wear black in "There Are Doors" -- --but it all comes to the same thing from the point of view of the characters and there's nothing like it explained in the story. +u16b9 --- ### Lee Berman *05 Nov 2010, 23:37 · follows James Wynn* > Dan'l D. Oakes- I've always taken it to imply that Severian made other trips to Typhon's era. In the past I think I considered that possible but questionable. In light of the current discussion and in reviewing so many other BotNS mysteries where mere suggestions become the only likely answer I now think it is probably the correct answer. > we might wonder why Typhon treats Severian as a complete stranger when they first meet. > Perhaps because he does not yet have the scar and limp that mark him later? Yes, I think I've always thought more along those lines. --- ### Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org *06 Nov 2010, 04:39 · in reply to James Wynn* > On Nov 5, 2010, at 11:32 AM, James Wynn wrote: > Additionally, sometimes Wolfe has his unreliable narrator offer an explanation that is probably untrue. Or is only true in a very narrow sense, when the Author is pointing to much more. I think this is the rule rather than the exception with Severian. I think that his musings on his altered course in time are spectacularly "wrong," but they are right in pointing out that his life HAS been shaped by forces aware or of the future. --- ### Andrew Mason *06 Nov 2010, 21:55 · follows Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org* > Sonofwitz wrote: > > On Nov 5, 2010, at 11:32 AM, James Wynn wrote: >> Additionally, sometimes Wolfe has his unreliable narrator offer an explanation that is probably untrue. Or is only true in a very narrow sense, when the Author is pointing to much more. > I think this is the rule rather than the exception with Severian. > I think that his musings on his altered course in time are spectacularly "wrong," but they are right in pointing out that his life HAS been shaped by forces aware or of the future. I sympathise with this. Severian, when he comes up with his 'first Severian' theory, believes that the first Severian became Apu-Punchau, as well as the person buried in the mausoleum; but we know that in fact it is the very Severian we know (though not in the same body) who became Apu-Punchau, which must cast doubt on whether he is right about the rest. I also think people are often too ready to accept Severian's Jonas-Miles theory. His main evidence for this is Miles' use of the 'as the X said' locution; and he works out an elaborate theory to explain this in terms of early robots' need to reassure people. But it later turns out that this manner of speaking is common among sailors. Perhaps Miles' parents were sailors, and that's all the explanation it needs. > ------------------------------ > > _______________________________________________ --- ### entonio at gmail.com *07 Nov 2010, 01:04 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* No dia 2010/11/05, ?s 20:58, Ryan Dunn escreveu: > On Nov 5, 2010, at 4:17 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: >>> (such as the "red monkey" connections Lee brought up earlier --it >>> was >>> Lee right?). >> Hard to tell when few respect the mingboggingly simple way of >> attributing >> and replying to messages, but I think so, spurred by Ryan. > My original post to the group was asking what to make of the > reoccurance of primates in BotNS, as well as attributes to various > characters resembling apes, and whether or not they may serve as > clues for various appearances of Father Inire, and whether Inire may > himself be a shape-shifter (sparked by the clue of Zak in UotNS). Then i must have missed it. I thought you'd merely asked for ideas on Rudesind's relationship to Inire and Lee had elaborated the monkey business. --- ### entonio at gmail.com *07 Nov 2010, 01:25 · in reply to Andrew Mason* No dia 2010/11/05, ?s 22:01, Andrew Mason escreveu: > Lee Berman wrote: > > But if Severian had doppelgangers who continued to > appear in Typhon's realm healing and purifying lust and whatnot, > perhaps Typhon really did accept that > the Conciliator had superhuman powers, by the time he died on his > couch. > Just to clarify: what I had in mind was reappearances at long > intervals (thus reconciling the 'thirty thousand years' thing with > Typhon's dates - though that might alos be explained through a change > of plan on Wolfe's part). More than one appearance in Typhon's reign > is also possible, though, I guess. I must be missing something. Isn't it generally accepted that Severian paid several visits to that time period alone? He at least says he likes to think some of the people who came to help him at the inn were himself - or am I mixing things up? If not then I certainly think the Concilliator was active both before and at the same time (in various places) as the short sojourn we're described. So when he came to Typhon his curriculum was much lenghthier than we we presenced. So that Cyrius Howsespelt had plenty of time to set his sight on him. > (But I had an idea that Typhon died > shortly after Severian's meeting with him - does this have a > foundation?) Just what happened to Typhon is left quite vague. We might say that he was left without followers and so vanished from scene, not unlike Europe's pagan gods. As to why, the world was maybe ripe for the taking, and the so-called cult of the Concilliator may have done it. --- ### entonio at gmail.com *07 Nov 2010, 01:38 · in reply to James Wynn* No dia 2010/11/05, ?s 22:41, James Wynn escreveu: > As I've said before, I can see little narrative value in > differentiating between Severian existing in our future or in a > previous cycle. I could construct a self-consistent model in which > they are different -- > > --one where the coming and sacrifice of the Christ works backwards > and forwards into adjacent cycles so others are enlightened by the > story and where there is a Catholic Church without a Christ for the > same reason grooms wear black in "There Are Doors" -- > > --but it all comes to the same thing from the point of view of the > characters and there's nothing like it explained in the story. I think the possibilities are only 2: - Severian is Earth's future - Severian is in the future of an alternate Earth I.e. even positing that Severian is a kind of Jesus, he can't be the first Jesus in his planet, otherwise where do the echoes of Christinanity that prrecede him come from? One might say the Concilliator visited earlier times, but all the evidence we have shows him closely associated to the end of Typhon's reign - or is there any hint that his time there is seen as a second coming? --- ### Jeff Wilson *07 Nov 2010, 02:48 · in reply to António Pedro Marques* > On 11/5/2010 1:11 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: > Given that Lee customarily says something to the effect of 'sorry if I'm > unintentionally doing that (bending/falsifying the evidence)' and then does > it again at the next opportunity, I'm inclined to think it's a memory > problem. Otherwise his professing unintentionality would be dishonest, > which > I find hard to believe. If that is the case, I regret doing so and would apologize except that threatens to initiate an infinite loop of renewing the forgotten offense in the act of apologizing to the truly forgetful person. > (Unintentional errors are quite possible given the source material, but > not to the point of obstinating, and as time goes by one should become > more alert.) >> Unfortunately, it would also be a pathological symptom, like the hypoxia >> from my sleep apnea that makes me just dumber than dirt on some days, and >> never as sharp as I could be or even was 2-3 years ago. > Is there nothing that can be done about it? I could whiff supplemental oxygen, but regulation places the cost of medical oxygen above what I can pay, and I'm not quite ready to endanger my family by making my own at home, or myself by using industrial delivery equipment, and I haven't quite been able to figure out how to obtain some of the relatively unregulated aviation oxygen gear. I did manage to score a sanctioned breathing apparatus, at an inflated but bearable one-time cost, which probably saved my life at one point, but once I improved past the point of physical danger the process of entering sleep while submitting to a face-hugging apparatus became almost as restful as it would have been with the cinematic creature with which most people here are doubtless familiar. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` --- ### Jeff Wilson *07 Nov 2010, 02:58 · in reply to António Pedro Marques* > On 11/5/2010 2:22 PM, Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: > Andrew Mason wrote (05-11-2010 19:05): >> On the Jesus question: I'm not sure it matters for this purpose whether >> Urth is Earth, since if it is not, it nevertheless has a past _very_ like >> the actual history of Earth, including Fair Rosamund, Marlowe, Mary >> Shelley, Lewis Carroll, etc. I find it hard to imagine that a world could >> contain all this without containing Jesus, whose absence must surely have >> knocked history off-course quite a bit. > Of course - and take Holy Katharine and 'Judastree', where is the latter > supoosed to have come from? Perhaps Holy Katharine was a martyred adherent of the faith established by John the Baptist, whose follower Judas had hung himself in remorse for his part in the Salome affair. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` --- ### Jeff Wilson *07 Nov 2010, 03:26 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On 11/5/2010 3:37 PM, Lee Berman wrote: >> James Wynn- Anybody who has posted to this list for any amount of time is guilty of >> taking a phrase as expansive when it has a more narrow reading in context. So Pot Meet Kettle. > Seems so to me also. I don't see how my mention of the possibly sarcastic "wonder-worker" is > rendered an example of maliciously selective reading because I didn't include "..and since diseases > and deformities seemed to flee from him". Quite a large pile of poo unleashed over two quite similar > phrases. It does seem like the goal was personal attack rather than advancing understanding of > the text. "Pathological hypoxia due to sleep apnea"? I admit that's a fresh new line of attack I > haven't seen used before. But anyway, yep, surely all are guilty of selective reading at times. It's not meant as a diagnosis but an example of cognitive faults that may cause behavior one does not choose and so should not be faulted for. It's not wonder-worker that I take issue with, it's your reading of it as possibly sarcastic. "Wonder-worker" already has a sufficient connotation of mountebank or illusionist to cover the usual cynical doubt of an educated ruler. Indeed, if Severian had performed numerous miracles in Typhon's presence, perhaps *then* it would sarcastic in the other direction to ironically label a genuine agent of the divine with such a commonplace appellation. The "poo" characterization of my criticism is also worthy of rebuke, but I doubt it would useful to do so. >> Andrew Mason- According to Dorcas's account of the Conciliator, he used to disappear and reappear >> Jeff Wilson- The disappearances mentioned my Dorcas would seem to indicate that his departure into >> the Corridors was further attested by the soldiers who witnessed it. > Andrew mentions disappearing *and* reappearing. It would be the reappearances that support the idea > of out-of-text re-emergings of doppelganger Conciliators. Mustn't read one word and skip the other. Disappearing suggests re-appearing, and the confirmation of the one and other miracles emboldens tale-tellers to affirm the other. Sev also has a BOTNS-long habit of appraising people from concealment or stealth before making his presence emphatically known, constructively appearing from nowhere. Without some pre-appearance hint to draw witnesses' attention to the spot where he is not, such a theatrical entrance is indistinguishable from momentary materialization. And by theatrical entrance, I mean that literally given his time with Dr Talos' troupe and his training in the art of execution; Sev loves to put on a show, and the inclusion of even one genuine supernatural effect elevates the entire performance, as does the inclusion of mundane but unfaked carnage. >> Jeff Wilson- But Typhon is making the "wonder-worker" speech in SWORD, when he knows >> there's something special about the Conciliator because he senses that the older fellow >> he met before his "drying" is connected to the younger but otherwise identical-looking fellow >> he meets after, both from common sense and from his psychic gifts. > The SWORD encounter itself does not provide enough information to make this conclusion. The scene implies > that Typhon connects Severian to the Conciliator because of the pouch around his neck, containing the Claw > of the Conciliator. Only later do we learn Severian is the Conciliator, which might allow us to infer > that Typhon recognizes Severian personally. Still, we might wonder why Typhon treats Severian as a complete > stranger when they first meet. Typhon doubtless mastered clever subterfuge decades before his arrival on Urth. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` --- ### Ryan Dunn *07 Nov 2010, 03:42 · in reply to entonio at gmail.com* >> On Nov 6, 2010, at 9:04 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote: >> My original post to the group was asking what to make of the reoccurance of primates in BotNS, as well as attributes to various characters resembling apes, and whether or not they may serve as clues for various appearances of Father Inire, and whether Inire may himself be a shape-shifter (sparked by the clue of Zak in UotNS). > Then i must have missed it. I thought you'd merely asked for ideas on Rudesind's relationship to Inire and Lee had elaborated the monkey business Yes and no. The connective tissue I used as part of the inquiry had to do with monkey descriptions. Hence the correlation. It wasn't non sequitur, anyways. I, however, am a participant in the theory that Severian is being watched throughout BotNS, by some reoccurring characters with a vested interest. Not all or maybe even many agree with me in this. ...ryan --- ### Jeff Wilson *07 Nov 2010, 05:00 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* > On 11/6/2010 10:42 PM, Ryan Dunn wrote: > > On Nov 6, 2010, at 9:04 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote: >>> My original post to the group was asking what to make of the reoccurance of primates in BotNS, as well as attributes to various characters resembling apes, and whether or not they may serve as clues for various appearances of Father Inire, and whether Inire may himself be a shape-shifter (sparked by the clue of Zak in UotNS). >> Then i must have missed it. I thought you'd merely asked for ideas on Rudesind's relationship to Inire and Lee had elaborated the monkey business > Yes and no. The connective tissue I used as part of the inquiry had to do with monkey descriptions. Hence the correlation. It wasn't non sequitur, anyways. > > I, however, am a participant in the theory that Severian is being watched throughout BotNS, by some reoccurring characters with a vested interest. Not all or maybe even many agree with me in this. Theory? Aquastors Malrubius and Triskele are seen watching over Severian at least twice, Malrubbius owns up to it in "person", and Triskele demonstrates an invisible manifestation shortly after. The Green Man does likewise. I'd treat it as axiomatic that he is being watched constantly, the only question is by whom and for whom in any given scene. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` --- ### Jeff Wilson *07 Nov 2010, 06:02 · in reply to Dan'l Danehy-Oakes* > On 11/5/2010 3:43 PM, Dan'l Danehy-Oakes wrote: > On Fri, Nov 5, 2010 at 1:37 PM, Lee Berman wrote: >> Andrew mentions disappearing *and* reappearing. It would be the reappearances that support the idea >> of out-of-text re-emergings of doppelganger Conciliators. Mustn't read one word and skip the other. > I've always taken it to imply that Severian made other trips to Typhon's era. I think it is more likely to be the "other" Severians of previous iterations who may have been the helpers at the inn. > Of course, it could also be just a case of the tale growing in the > telling, that there was just the one disappearance but a thousand > years have embellished the matter somewhat. This probably is intended to be understood to have happened in addition to any extra trips that may have been made. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` --- ### Lee Berman *07 Nov 2010, 12:00 · follows Jeff Wilson* > Ant?nio Pedro Marques wrote: > Given that Lee customarily says something to the effect of 'sorry if I'm > unintentionally doing that (bending/falsifying the evidence)' and then does > it again at the next opportunity > Jeff Wilson: If that is the case, I regret doing so and would apologize except that > threatens to initiate an infinite loop of renewing the forgotten offense > in the act of apologizing to the truly forgetful person. What I said was: > if I've pissed you off, I apologize, though I'm not sure why what I wrote upsets > you. Or did you mean you were pissed off at Andrew, whose idea I was going along with? My apology was for causing emotional distress, not for "bending/falsifying the evidence" I think I provide exact quotes from the text to support my ideas at as often as most others. If somebody thinks I need more textual support for one of my ideas I think the polite method would be to request it. I would be happy to oblige on this. To be attacked for for an adjunct reply to what are actually Andrew's ideas demonstrates the underlying purpose which seems to be personal not scholarly. I can undersand why those whom I've caused emotional distress be inclined to be impolite and prefer to make general personal attacks as a means of expressing that distress. But again, I am making a sincere attempt here to improve my understanding of Gene WOlfe's work. I appreciate both positive and negative feedback on my ideas. I prefer a spirit of pleasantness and cooperation but if some feel the need to express negative feedback in a combative, insulting manner I understand and accept this also. I apologize if "poo" is an offensive term for impolite attacks, due to its fecal reference. Among our primate relatives, throwing it is a common method of showing contempt. Perhaps we can call it an acronym for P(ersonalattacks) O(n) O(nesself)? --- ### Jeff Wilson *07 Nov 2010, 12:13 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On 11/7/2010 6:00 AM, Lee Berman wrote: > I think I provide exact quotes from the text to support my ideas at as often as most others. 1) Exact quotation is good, but exact and comprehensive is better. 2) You have gratuitously mis-quoted me in a recent message, which rather undermines your claim to accuracy. It wasn't a gross mis-chartacterization of what I said, so I let it pass at the time but since you bring up the matter of fidelity in quotation, I will thank you to stop doing that to me. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` --- ### Ryan Dunn *07 Nov 2010, 13:55 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* >>>> On Nov 7, 2010, at 1:00 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: >>>> My original post to the group was asking what to make of the reoccurance of primates in BotNS, as well as attributes to various characters resembling apes, and whether or not they may serve as clues for various appearances of Father Inire, and whether Inire may himself be a shape-shifter (sparked by the clue of Zak in UotNS). >>> Then i must have missed it. I thought you'd merely asked for ideas on Rudesind's relationship to Inire and Lee had elaborated the monkey business >> Yes and no. The connective tissue I used as part of the inquiry had to do with monkey descriptions. Hence the correlation. It wasn't non sequitur, anyways. >> >> I, however, am a participant in the theory that Severian is being watched throughout BotNS, by some reoccurring characters with a vested interest. Not all or maybe even many agree with me in this. > Theory? Aquastors Malrubius and Triskele are seen watching over Severian at least twice, Malrubbius owns up to it in "person", and Triskele demonstrates an invisible manifestation shortly after. The Green Man does likewise. I'd treat it as axiomatic that he is being watched constantly, the only question is by whom and for whom in any given scene. Jeff, You are correct, I should have been more clear. I am a participant in the theory that INIRE is being watched throughout BotNS as well, and I believe the monkeys are a key clue. I know this is not as substantiated as characters like Famulimus, or Malrubius, but there it is. ...ryan --- ### Ryan Dunn *07 Nov 2010, 14:00 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* > On Nov 7, 2010, at 8:55 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote: > Jeff, > > You are correct, I should have been more clear. I am a participant in the theory that INIRE is being watched throughout BotNS as well, and I believe the monkeys are a key clue. I know this is not as substantiated as characters like Famulimus, or Malrubius, but there it is. > > ...ryan Arrrgh. I mean, as you may suspect, that Severian is being watched BY Inire. And probably Severian too, is watching over himself from the corridors of time, and possible inadvertently. I got that feeling when Severian the Lame revisits the Atrium of Time near the end of CotA. ...ryan --- ### Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org *08 Nov 2010, 00:19 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* > On Nov 6, 2010, at 10:00 PM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > Theory? Aquastors Malrubius and Triskele are seen watching over Severian at least twice, Malrubbius owns up to it in "person", and Triskele demonstrates an invisible manifestation shortly after. The Green Man does likewise. I'd treat it as axiomatic that he is being watched constantly, the only question is by whom and for whom in any given scene. It seems Baldanders must have some knowlege of Severian. It's too coincidental that They cross paths and travel together performing a preview of their future. I guess that the Heirodules, working backwards, have given Baldander's enough info to get him in Severian's path. He must know he's been set up when he see's them in the audience at the House Absolute. No? Now dow Agia/Agilus/Hethor have future info that involved them with Severian? I don't get that part. The multiple timeline thing doesn't gel much with me. I see this time model as an Amphisbaena that has a foreward and backward perspective. They can see Severian cutting through the time spiral enough to start meddling. The story only happens one way. All the time meddling creates the story as it always was, like any great story of prophesy. ~Witz --- ### James Wynn *08 Nov 2010, 06:04 · in reply to entonio at gmail.com* > On 11/6/2010 8:38 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote: > I think the possibilities are only 2: > > - Severian is Earth's future > - Severian is in the future of an alternate Earth > > I.e. even positing that Severian is a kind of Jesus, he can't be the > first Jesus in his planet, otherwise where do the echoes of > Christinanity that prrecede him come from? One might say the > Concilliator visited earlier times, but all the evidence we have shows > him closely associated to the end of Typhon's reign - or is there any > hint that his time there is seen as a second coming? Those are hardly the only two possibilities. Given that Time collapses with each cycle it is entirely irrelevant whether the cycles were "earlier" (in meta-Time) or not. For the memory to move backwards is no harder (or even different) than for it to move forward. As for where do the echoes of Christianity come from, in the post you replied to, I explained how that could easily work using a model Wolfe has constructed in another novel. But, it really doesn't matter from the characters' point of view. One might as well say, "It all happens in the same universe" and just go with it. u+16b9 --- ### Jeff Wilson *08 Nov 2010, 08:32 · in reply to Ryan Dunn* > On 11/7/2010 7:55 AM, Ryan Dunn wrote: > I am a participant in the theory that INIRE is being watched throughout BotNS as well, and I believe the monkeys are a key clue. I know this is not as substantiated as characters like Famulimus, or Malrubius, but there it is. That *is* an interesting idea, that Inire the mirror gazer might have his own train of gazers upon himself. Who could command Urthly primates the way that Hethor commands his creatures or the unseen Yesodis their aquastors? The Beast Handlers? I can see why you make the big money for creative directing. Congratulations on the "new" gig by the way. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` --- ### Jeff Wilson *08 Nov 2010, 10:51 · in reply to Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org* > On 11/7/2010 6:19 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote: > It seems Baldanders must have some knowlege of Severian. It's too coincidental that They cross paths and travel together performing a preview of their future. I guess that the Heirodules, working backwards, have given Baldander's enough info to get him in Severian's path. He must know he's been set up when he see's them in the audience at the House Absolute. > The multiple timeline thing doesn't gel much with me. I see this time model as an Amphisbaena that has a foreward and backward perspective. They can see Severian cutting through the time spiral enough to start meddling. The story only happens one way. All the time meddling creates the story as it always was, like any great story of prophesy. I think you will need to chose one of these two theses. If there is one, inevitable timeline, no involvement is required to arrange a meeting between Sev and Baldy, since there are no other possibilities and the agents of the all-seeing Tzadkiel would know it. But it may be that there are but two outcomes possible and the meddling strengthens one while weakening the other. After reviewing Mantiss' bear and cat essay, I am inclined to think that this is the case, the bearish wintry Ragnorok future opposing the feline sultry Ushas one. This may be the substance behind Lee's observations of time-traveling architecture; it's not sequentially bound with up and down, but polarized: the jungle hut is Ushas-y, while Valeria's court is Ragnorok-y. We can even bundle in the Hypogeums: they represent the protective wolf den which both shelters from the cold but isolates from the renewed prey of the returned spring; they cannot serve as a refuge forever and the Epitome must emerge to the final fate of Urth whichever it may be. ``` Jeff Wilson - jwilson at io.com Computational Intelligence Laboratory - Texas A&M Texarkana < http://www.tamut.edu/CIL > ``` --- ### António Pedro Marques *08 Nov 2010, 12:03 · in reply to James Wynn* James Wynn wrote (08-11-2010 06:04): > On 11/6/2010 8:38 PM, entonio at gmail.com wrote: >> I think the possibilities are only 2: >> >> - Severian is Earth's future >> - Severian is in the future of an alternate Earth >> >> I.e. even positing that Severian is a kind of Jesus, he can't be the >> first Jesus in his planet, otherwise where do the echoes of >> Christinanity that prrecede him come from? One might say the >> Concilliator visited earlier times, but all the evidence we have shows >> him closely associated to the end of Typhon's reign - or is there any >> hint that his time there is seen as a second coming? > Those are hardly the only two possibilities. > > Given that Time collapses with each cycle it is entirely irrelevant > whether the cycles were "earlier" (in meta-Time) or not. It's not irrelevant, it's devoid of meaning. Either way, I meant 'future', not 'meta-future'. > For the memory > to move backwards is no harder (or even different) than for it to move > forward. > As for where do the echoes of Christianity come from, in the post you > replied to, I explained how that could easily work using a model Wolfe > has constructed in another novel. No, you hinted it could follow 'There Are Doors'. That's far from an explanation and I don't see how that's easy here. --- ### James Wynn *08 Nov 2010, 14:34 · in reply to António Pedro Marques* >> James Wynn- >> Given that Time collapses with each cycle it is entirely irrelevant >> whether the cycles were "earlier" (in meta-Time) or not. > entonio at gmail.com- > It's not irrelevant, it's devoid of meaning. Either way, I meant > 'future', not 'meta-future'. How is there a "future" when Time collapses at the end of a cycle? > entonio at gmail.com- > No, you hinted it could follow 'There Are Doors'. That's far from an > explanation and I don't see how that's easy here. In TAD alternate universes that are near one another affect each other just as if you tune the strings on a guitar to the same note and pluck one string those next to it will vibrate. So, in TAD, even though it has always been true that men in Laraworld die after having sex, the languages, customs, and architecture is virtually the same as our world (Green's world). The two universes are constantly affecting each other--bringing them into accordance. So grooms in Laraworld wear black because men die after having sex. Grooms in Green's world wear black because grooms in Laraworld do. By the same token, it would not be necessary for there to have been a Jesus of Nazareth in Severian's cycle for there to be a Catholic Church. They would have a Catholic Church, with similar rituals, because there was one in the cycle just following or just preceding Severian's--just as grooms wear black in our world because men die after sex in Laraworld. (Since Time is not an issue, the cycles exist simultaneously in all practical senses.) And there might have been a Catholic Church in one of THOSE other cycles only because there was one in the cycle on the other side. And, although, only the universe with a Christ has a true rationale for having a Catholic Church, all of the Catholic Churches are *actually* honoring the Christ in the original cycle (because if A=B and B=C, then A=C). Okay? u+16b9 --- ### Gerry Quinn *08 Nov 2010, 15:12 · in reply to James Wynn* > From: "James Wynn" > By the same token, it would not be necessary for there to have been a > Jesus of Nazareth in Severian's cycle for there to be a Catholic Church. > They would have a Catholic Church, with similar rituals, because there was > one in the cycle just following or just preceding Severian's--just as > grooms wear black in our world because men die after sex in Laraworld. > (Since Time is not an issue, the cycles exist simultaneously in all > practical senses.) And there might have been a Catholic Church in one of > THOSE other cycles only because there was one in the cycle on the other > side. And, although, only the universe with a Christ has a true rationale > for having a Catholic Church, all of the Catholic Churches are *actually* > honoring the Christ in the original cycle (because if A=B and B=C, then > A=C). But in fact there is no particular evidence that there is a Catholic Church in the Solar Cycle, except that a religion that has some similarities to it is described as being a parody of some undescribed state religion (this information comes from an alien vampire who was never on Urth). But there are several pieces of evidence for the existence of Jesus. In BotNS itself, there is no real evidence for either. - Gerry Quinn --- ### António Pedro Marques *08 Nov 2010, 15:50 · in reply to James Wynn* James Wynn wrote (08-11-2010 14:34): >>> James Wynn- >>> Given that Time collapses with each cycle it is entirely irrelevant >>> whether the cycles were "earlier" (in meta-Time) or not. >> entonio at gmail.com- >> It's not irrelevant, it's devoid of meaning. Either way, I meant >> 'future', not 'meta-future'. > How is there a "future" when Time collapses at the end of a cycle? Because I never mentioned cross-'cycle' temporality? " - Severian is Earth's future - Severian is in the future of an alternate Earth " And the paragraph below meant to explain why. >> No, you hinted it could follow 'There Are Doors'. That's far from an >> explanation and I don't see how that's easy here. > In TAD alternate universes that are near one another affect each other > just as if you tune the strings on a guitar to the same note and pluck > one string those next to it will vibrate. So, in TAD, even though it has > always been true that men in Laraworld die after having sex, the > languages, customs, and architecture is virtually the same as our world > (Green's world). The two universes are constantly affecting each > other--bringing them into accordance. So grooms in Laraworld wear black > because men die after having sex. Grooms in Green's world wear black > because grooms in Laraworld do. > > By the same token, it would not be necessary for there to have been a > Jesus of Nazareth in Severian's cycle for there to be a Catholic Church. > They would have a Catholic Church, with similar rituals, because there > was one in the cycle just following or just preceding Severian's--just > as grooms wear black in our world because men die after sex in > Laraworld. An unjustified leap. There may be a Catholic Church, with similar rituals, because there was Jesus figure or something in its place, and that in turn because there was a real Jesus in a close cycle. It's one thing for grooms to wear a given colour for a reason that only comes fulfilled on a parallel universe, after all choice of colour doesn't condition your future. It's quite different to just have an entire church out of nothing. Those aren't dummies, they're people. Their church, if it exists, needs some basis. They can't just be going through the motions. --- ### James Wynn *08 Nov 2010, 15:53 · in reply to Gerry Quinn* > But in fact there is no particular evidence that there is a Catholic > Church in the Solar Cycle, except that a religion that has some > similarities to it is described as being a parody of some undescribed > state religion (this information comes from an alien vampire who was > never on Urth). But there are several pieces of evidence for the > existence of Jesus. In BotNS itself, there is no real evidence for > either. I think the information came from Lemur...but, okay, he had never been on Urth either. Still, the rituals of the Charter map one-to-one with the Catholic Church. And the Chrasmological Writings contain references from the Gospels. As for evidence in BotNS itself, I offer Andrew and Matthew's analysis: On Thu, Sep 16, 2010 at 3:09 PM, Andrew Mason > wrote: Also. Severian dreams of a ritual taking place in the Citadel chapel at a time before the old sun was darkened, which involves bread, wine and a knife - not exactly the Christian eucharist, but something like it. Matthew Weber replied- In the Eastern Orthodox liturgy, the (leavened) bread used in Communion is cut with a triangular-bladed knife, referred to as the Spear. u+16b9 --- ### Lee Berman *08 Nov 2010, 16:47 · follows James Wynn* > Jeff Wilson: This may be the substance behind Lee's observations of time-traveling > architecture; it's not sequentially bound with up and down, but polarized: the jungle > hut is Ushas-y, while Valeria's court is Ragnorok-y. My suggestion was that time travel structures in BotNS consist of a labyrinthine entrance path coupled with a vertical structure. I'd focused on the fact that Ragnarok is only visible from the upper stories of Last House in positing that verticality is the key to the time travel. Very helpful discussion this year pointed out to me that the text also suggests the pathway itself is involved in time travel. So perhaps both are involved. Or perhaps their functioning is left deliberately ambiguous and unknowable. I dunno. But I do like the focus on the theme of a bifurcating path and choices of warm golden green vs. cold, wintry black and white. As Severian travels upon Brook Madregot it seems he has a single channel to follow as he moves to the past. But as he moves to the future (even futures he has already lived through) he is presented with branchings and choices. In combination with this, I think the Master Ash episode is one of the best bits of evidence for Ryan's adjunct discussion of Severian being watched (and his watchers also being watched). What urthly purpose could possibly be served by the Pelerines sending Severian to "save" or kidnap Master Ash? The provided reason was obviously bogus. Master Ash was obviously much safer where he was than if he had been brought to the lazaret. Whomever initated the order clearly had some arcane knowledge available to be able to provide the correct pathway on the map to the Last House. Capturing Master Ash seems clearly to be a test by these not-quite omniscient observers as to whether Severian is on the right path to bring the future they desire. A question I have is whether those who gave the order to the Pelerines wished for Master Ash to be present with Severian, thus assuring the Ragnarok Path, or for his absence, assuring the Aureate Path (though this is a Long Sun term I think it is applicable here). Perhaps (almost assuredly) there is more than one level of observation and manipulation at work. Surely those who oppose the New Sun have been put to work against their own goals by a higher power. Superficially the Pelerines appear aligned with the Concilliator and the New Sun but I detect hints that they are associated with some of the darker powers of the story. Moreover, I note that they have encased the Claw in cold, hard, blue corundum and keep it hidden from sight. Also their costumes are red (not yellow or gold) which may symbolize their true loyalties. --- ### Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org *08 Nov 2010, 17:07 · in reply to Jeff Wilson* > On Nov 8, 2010, at 2:51 AM, Jeff Wilson wrote: > On 11/7/2010 6:19 PM, Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org wrote: >> It seems Baldanders must have some knowlege of Severian. It's too coincidental that They cross paths and travel together performing a preview of their future. I guess that the Heirodules, working backwards, have given Baldander's enough info to get him in Severian's path. He must know he's been set up when he see's them in the audience at the House Absolute. >> The multiple timeline thing doesn't gel much with me. I see this time model as an Amphisbaena that has a foreward and backward perspective. They can see Severian cutting through the time spiral enough to start meddling. The story only happens one way. All the time meddling creates the story as it always was, like any great story of prophesy. > I think you will need to chose one of these two theses. If there is one, inevitable timeline, no involvement is required to arrange a meeting between Sev and Baldy, since there are no other possibilities and the agents of the all-seeing Tzadkiel would know it. > > But it may be that there are but two outcomes possible and the meddling strengthens one while weakening the other. > After reviewing Mantiss' bear and cat essay, I am inclined to think that this is the case, the bearish wintry Ragnorok future opposing the feline sultry Ushas one. > > This may be the substance behind Lee's observations of time-traveling architecture; it's not sequentially bound with up and down, but polarized: the jungle hut is Ushas-y, while Valeria's court is Ragnorok-y. We can even bundle in the Hypogeums: they represent the protective wolf den which both shelters from the cold but isolates from the renewed prey of the returned spring; they cannot serve as a refuge forever and the Epitome must emerge to the final fate of Urth whichever it may be. No no. I'm not saying there is one innevitable timeline. I'm saying that all of the time meddling always happened because some powers have a reversed time perspective. All of the meddling shapes the plot as it comes out. I do not subscribe, whatsoever — though anyone may if they want — that each tinkering with time branches multiple universes off ad nauseum. Mirrors in this book echo the Amphisbaena time theme. The reality is somehow what gels in the image the two make as they reflect upon each other. Both perspectives of time are simultaneous. Possibilities and Will abound, but out of all the time potentialities, (and we know future knowlege of Ushas or Ragnaraok are potentials) eventually cancel each other out into the one actuality. And, as an aside, I think the Hut in the Jungle is Earth-y, not Ushas-y. The sand garden (?) where the smilodon roar and the thorn are Ushas-y, no? ~Witz --- ### Sonofwitz at butcherbaker.org *08 Nov 2010, 17:17 · in reply to Lee Berman* > On Nov 8, 2010, at 8:47 AM, Lee Berman wrote: >> Jeff Wilson: This may be the substance behind Lee's observations of time-traveling >> architecture; it's not sequentially bound with up and down, but polarized: the jungle >> hut is Ushas-y, while Valeria's court is Ragnorok-y. > My suggestion was that time travel structures in BotNS consist of a labyrinthine entrance > path coupled with a vertical structure. I'd focused on the fact that Ragnarok is only > visible from the upper stories of Last House in positing that verticality is the key to > the time travel. Very helpful discussion this year pointed out to me that the text also > suggests the pathway itself is involved in time travel. So perhaps both are involved. Or > perhaps their functioning is left deliberately ambiguous and unknowable. I dunno. > > But I do like the focus on the theme of a bifurcating path and choices of warm golden green > vs. cold, wintry black and white. As Severian travels upon Brook Madregot it seems he has a > single channel to follow as he moves to the past. But as he moves to the future (even futures > he has already lived through) he is presented with branchings and choices. > > In combination with this, I think the Master Ash episode is one of the best bits of evidence > for Ryan's adjunct discussion of Severian being watched (and his watchers also being watched). > What urthly purpose could possibly be served by the Pelerines sending Severian to "save" or > kidnap Master Ash? The provided reason was obviously bogus. Master Ash was obviously much safer > where he was than if he had been brought to the lazaret. Whomever initated the order clearly > had some arcane knowledge available to be able to provide the correct pathway on the map to the > Last House. > > Capturing Master Ash seems clearly to be a test by these not-quite omniscient observers as to > whether Severian is on the right path to bring the future they desire. A question I have is > whether those who gave the order to the Pelerines wished for Master Ash to be present with > Severian, thus assuring the Ragnarok Path, or for his absence, assuring the Aureate Path > (though this is a Long Sun term I think it is applicable here). > > Perhaps (almost assuredly) there is more than one level of observation and manipulation at work. > Surely those who oppose the New Sun have been put to work against their own goals by a higher > power. Superficially the Pelerines appear aligned with the Concilliator and the New Sun but I > detect hints that they are associated with some of the darker powers of the story. Moreover, I > note that they have encased the Claw in cold, hard, blue corundum and keep it hidden from sight. > Also their costumes are red (not yellow or gold) which may symbolize their true loyalties. It's certainly hard to see the first meaning, but the third is clear. By the end of Sword, when the acumulated myth of the conicilaitor, aka, the blue corundum enclosure, is shattered and Severian holds the naked claw, he is truly on the right path. He does the deed of the Pelerines, showing that after all of the oaths he's broken, he is still aligned with the hope that the Concilator/New Sun of the Pelerine faiths. Thematically, by removing the Master Ash bear from his cave, who then DISAPPEARS, we see veiled proof that Severian has chosen the path that will avoid the Ragnaorok. --- ### Stanislaus B. *08 Nov 2010, 20:55 · in reply to Lee Berman* I suggest reading Dumezil, especially on Varuna-type gods including Odin, and their servant creatures/people, such as luperci, centaurs and Gandharvas. Without Dumezil Pan etc is imposssible to understand. Compare Russian theories on Veles - the insufficient treatment of Slavic mytholody caused Dumezil to miss many clues. Remember that Veles was Christianized as Devil, St Nicholaus and St Cassian - depending on his negative/positive aspect. Also see this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Krampus > 2010-11-03 14:42, Lee Berman wrote: > Moreover in current research, I'm finding more religious connection between Pan and > demons than I was previously aware of. Others more versed in religion might have been > very familiar but I'm finding some interesting associations in regard to the full Sun > series. More on that later. > _______________________________________________ ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Najlepsza wyszukiwarka tanich lot??w! Sprawd? >>> http://linkint.pl/f284a --- ### Lee Berman *09 Nov 2010, 14:28 · follows Stanislaus B.* > Stanislaus B.- I suggest reading Dumezil, especially on Varuna-type gods including > Odin, and their servant creatures/people, such as luperci, centaurs and > Gandharvas. Without Dumezil Pan etc is imposssible to understand. In the biography, Wikipedia notes: > Many themes of Dum?zil's work have continued influence in ancient religious studies: for > example, his impulse to comparative study, and his basic insight that polytheistic gods > must be studied not simply by themselves, but in the pairs and ensembles in which their > worshippers grouped them. Thanks Stan. Yes, this is EXACTLY what I am finding in RttW as a unifying theme which extends back to the subtext of BotNS. I find the general concept confusing but focusing on the things (gods) Wolfe seems to be focusing on is at least allowing a vague explanatory model to appear, for me. ---